1228747 C.A.T.S. vs TunerPro difference in ECM Mask / *.xdf file??????

[51caddyman]

Ok update: I have the wideband O2 in now. First off, up at high rpm WOT i'm not leaning out at all, I'm in the 10.8-11.4 range(if anything i'm a tad rich). When i installed my new wideband (AEM digital) i set it to P4 and wired it to my CPU. Here is the very stange thing now. she is showing very lean 15.8 to ---- when coasting to a stop, and just doesn;t recover very well, stalling now as i get to stops every 1 in 3 to 1 in 4 times. This is worse then before. I keep throwing fuel at the main fuel table in the 400-1200 rpm (where she starts to stumble and die) in 2% increases with very little change. Is there a table I'm missing to turn "the coasting fuel shut off" off at certain RPM? Also, once warmed up, her idle is 550-650, 100-200 rpm lower then before (ideal idle set to 750 in the system). Any thoughts?

[51caddyman]

More updates! Ok first to note, the issue i was having getting past 4500-4800 rpm was indeed the system trying to go into PE. By putting the MIN RPM for PE to 6300 rpm, she pulls like a champ all the way!!! WOOHOO! Now, AEM and the wideband system. This is where things get less happy. SO this is what I've discovered: when the face of the gauge goes past either edge (like coasting, goes lean) it suddenly outputs .5v, so basicly, the gauge says it's stoichiometric, so the cpu says OH NO and leans it out more, and the cycle repeats until the motor dies (who thought that bit of programing was a good idea!?!). We are facing another blizzard this weekend, so sometime next week, I'll put the old o2 back in for the CPU to read and just keep the wideband for my tuning work. After all that is done, I will want to pick y'all's brains more RE: PE and ESC and the Knock test system. I may be able to tune around it, but from what I have been reading, that leaves a lot on the table power gains wise. Thanks again for all your help on this stuff, I'm learning SO SO MUCH!

[EagleMark]

What are the voltages and AFR set to in your Wide Band?

Stoich would neither add or take away fuel? When decelerating it is normal for WB to go MAX lean because of Decel or DFCO settings.

Do you have gas or E10 in tank?

[51caddyman]

Ok so in P04 (nerst cell no2 mode) it shows between 1-0 volts. The issue is the way this was programed: 10.0=1 and 18.0 = 0 HOWEVER when the gauge system pegs beyond those values and shows --- on the gauge screen, instead of just showing 1 or 0 it jumps back up to .5v. SO as i'm coasting, my cpu sees the jump up to .5v again, and with my system coasting it tries to lean it out more, stalling out the motor. you can actually feel it happening. I'm running Shell V-Power in Colorado, so i'm pretty sure it's E-10.

[EagleMark]

Stop using the narrow band simulation. Run Open Loop and tune with with WIde Band. Forget everything you know about AFR and set it up for Lambda. E10 fuel is closer to 14.1 AFR.

[51caddyman]

OK, so, all is well again, I now have 2 O2 sensors, one for the ECU and one for the gauge/tuning. Back to normal again... WHEW! still have the every once in a while stall at idle, but NOTHING like using that simulator. All of you with big overlap cams take notice to this, as it will save you a lot of yelling at your brand new O2 gauge ;). We have snow on tap for this weekend again out here in the rockies so, i will let you all know when I have her dialed in perfectly. Once i get there, I'll check back in here and chat with you RE: knock sensors and ESC. Right now i'm just so happy to have this motor pulling so hard all the way to the shift point. WOOHOO!

[51caddyman]

Ok another update, I have the motor pulling nice and smooth all the way to 6200 RPM, all the fuel trims look good all the way up under WOT. She still has the random stall at idle, but it's pretty rare now compared to before. When it does it, it shows no fuel on the WBO2 gauge,(---) otherwise she idles around in the 13-15 range. The rest of the time she's fine. I finally got the 3.07 gears out and 3.73's in last weekend... That was a big, happy change, now I accelerate way faster than my GPS speedo app can keep up with. I'm sure there is more power to be found, I added another 2% of spark to the table and she took it without any signs of knocking. I will keep playing with that (once the snow melts, AGAIN!!!) and see how it goes.

[EagleMark]

You understand that ECM fuel trims are not in use during WOT? Have to go by WB at that point.

[51caddyman]

Yes, exactly, that is what I'm watching, the Tach and the WBO2 gauge, as I do my WOT runs. Under WOT i'm 12.5-13.5 over 4K rpm per the WBO2.

[EagleMark]

Spend some time with your AEM WB instructions and make sure it's set right. I think the rotary switch can be set to P1 so your gauge can read Lambda on 0 to 5 volt scale. I like the 1 volt scale as it does not drive you nuts with huge movements but don't think your gauge does 1 volt in lambda, just AFR...

Lambda 1.0 is Stoich of fuel used. It's always right. AFR is not, it's calculated from Lambda and looks like AEM has only one choice, 14.7 and that's not right for E fuel. Lambda is.

1.0 is perfect. shoot for .87 WOT. Above 1.0 is lean.

[51caddyman]

The AEM gauge can OUTPUT via the "to CPU wire" in 0-1V, or 0-5v, but the actual guage only reads in the AFR scale. So I would have to hook the blue wire up at a CPU to log it that way... So I'll have to get another serial plug to get that setup. I'll get on that.

[51caddyman]

OK so I went home and re-read the AEM instructions, and the P-0 through P-4 is just the output "filtering" as far as I read it. The WBO2 (the actual sensor) is outputing 0-5 volts, and just shows it as 10-18 AFR on the gauge, which translates to 0-5 volts, the "P" setting is for the output to the car's ECU so that the WBO2 can be used on any type of unit. The actual sensor is still putting out 0-5 volts no matter how you set the P switch, the only thing that changes is what goes out on the blue wire. The blue wire right now is not hooked up, as I have my narrow band hooked up to the ECU. I really don't understand how that has any impact at all, i mean I could call the range 10-18 (or 0-5) banannas. It's all the same, it still is just showing where in the 0-5 volt range the WBO2 is currently, right? The AFR(10-18) is just a translation of the the senor is sniffing (10=5 and 18=0). I would think that the bigger scale is better as it provides greater granularity, visually speaking, so i know what fractional % between 0-5 I am. Am I missing something here?

[EagleMark]

Does it have a serial cable to program the controller? Like free air and heater calibration? Set AFR and AD output voltages? If not your stuck with what they have...

Never mind I found the pdf. The gauge is the controller, no setup

Should be 0 volts = 10 AFR and 5 = 18.5 AFR so 2.5 volts is Lambda? It converts that to AFR.

It will work, just FYI if using E fuel and it's reading 14.7 it's not, it's reading 1.0 Lambda which is converted on a 14.7 scale. For now your fine. But if you use an AD output (white or blue wire) to a data logger it screws things up if using AFR because it is only accurate with real gasoline. E fuel is closer to 14.1 (Could be less or more depending on E content) at Lambda 1.0

With E fuel your Stoich AFR in bin should be changed to 14.13 AFR to start.

[51caddyman]

Ok, perfect! At least what I thought I was reading was right. I will make the change right now to 14.13. Thanks again for all your help on this. I'll let you know after a buy a knock sensor and get that hooked up so I can turn the knock testing back on and let engine find it's ideal SA. I'm sure I'll have to pick your brain on that whole can of worms...

[51caddyman]

Hi again! Sorry for the long time no talk here, but I had one of my brand new (5K miles) hydro roller lifters from comp cams fail. I had to tear the whole top end apart and took that as a sign to get the cam I orginally wanted. So all new Lunati roller lifters and Lunati voodoo roller cam; specs below:
Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 282/290
Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 231/239
Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .535/.550
LSA/ICL: 110/106

OK so anyways... I had to start all over again with tuning, PE is turned off all KNK tests disabled, etc. I have my main fuel table getting dialed in pretty close (all values are +/- 5 points from 128 in BLM reads (i've noticed that these never are perfect, no matter how many runs and re-do's I do)) and most are within 2. Now my question, I've been battling this low throttle surging issue and I read the following about O2 Prop error:

(source: http://www.diy-efi.org/gmecm/papers/747fuel.txt)

PROPORTIONAL ERROR TERM:

Once the slow filtered error term is calculated, it is used as a
lookup index into the proportional gain table at: 0x4A8.

Another lookup is done for a proportional multiplier term, indexed
by airflow in gms/sec, at: 0x4C7.

The two above terms are multiplied together, divided by 256 and
the result is used as the adjustment to the CLT term.

The math:

PropTerm = (Gain @ 0x4A8[O2err] * FlowGain @ 0x4C7[gms/sec]) / 256.


This makes the FlowGain (@ 0x4C7), dictate a percentage of the gain
table (@ 0x4A8). The end result will always be lower then the starting
gain term.

To create the CLT, the proportional term is either subtracted, or added
to the INT term. If the O2 sensor is lean, the prop term is added to the
INT. If the O2 sensor is rich, the prop term is subtracted from the INT
term. The result is the CLT term.

The CLT term is then used to adjust the BPW calculation.


For highly tuned engines (IE: hot street stuff), the proportional
gains can to too high. The effect is the engine surging under steady
state cruising. Reducing the gain and multiplier values can reduce
this problem. The values in these tables can sometimes be cut in half.

However, this article is for 7747 not my 8747 cpu.

are the above noted tables I'm looking for "O2 Prop Gain Mult as fuct of Flow" & "Prop Error Vs. Slow Filt. O2 error" ?

also what is "Pos Error Mult for Rich O2 Avg" in the scalars for? There is no detail when I hover over that one with the mouse.

THANKS!!!