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Thread: No idle closed loop 7427 $0D

  1. #16
    Carb and Points!
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    Quote Originally Posted by 96lt4c4 View Post
    Plus he is standing over my back asking 1000 questions making it hard to concentrate...
    if this was not a recent affair, I'd swear you were talking about me.

    Sent you a PM......

  2. #17
    EFI tuning addict 96lt4c4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 93chevytbi View Post
    if this was not a recent affair, I'd swear you were talking about me.

    Sent you a PM......
    LOL...no man not you...I tune better and quicker when I can concentrate on what I am doing, not talking, or being rushed, just the way it is. PM replied.

    -1999 Hugger Orange SS, LS2 402 T56, 9 inch Ford 3.90 gears, Tuned with HP Tuners
    -2002 Cavalier, Tuned with HP Tuners
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  3. #18
    EFI tuning addict 96lt4c4's Avatar
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    Just doing some testing on my personal truck, 7427 $0d. 383 tbi. Noticed my idle map was high too around 40 kpa, never dropped in the 30's. I had idle set to 700, timing was around 20 degrees. My truck does go closed loop at idle though. I to was getting AE going active randomly. Never noticed it before. So, I started raising timing at idle and the Map started coming down, but my BLM's went rich. Once the timing got over say 26 degrees I was getting a flutter in my tach that I could see on the gauge and on the gauge in the log. This would cause the truck to almost die. Can you only advance so much at idle? Or do I have mechanical problems, spark scatter, bad module? It seemed like 25 degrees was as high as I could go, but BLM's went down so I put it back where it was for now.

    -1999 Hugger Orange SS, LS2 402 T56, 9 inch Ford 3.90 gears, Tuned with HP Tuners
    -2002 Cavalier, Tuned with HP Tuners
    -1994 Full Size Blazer ,383 TBI 4L60E, 4.10's, Tuned with Tunerpro RT (Where it all began)

  4. #19
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    With 40kpa I would not even try to push it. Yes you can add to much at idle and you found it.

    Your truck is idling at 40kpa which is good. The other one is at 55kpa which is worse, this is the one to push some timing at idle to get more vacuum or idle better because of cam. Were still guessing right? No specs? Bigger cams can take 30+ degrees at idle, then need to drop for acceleration. The cam overlap causes an EGR effect and that mixture needs MORE timing!

    You really need to check timing at timing marks and compare to timing table to see if it is accurate! That bin had a bias change and 10+ degrees added in places... and the bias was 9.84 so you may have added 20 degrees!

    "So where did you say your timing was set?"

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  5. #20
    EFI tuning addict 96lt4c4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EagleMark View Post
    With 40kpa I would not even try to push it. Yes you can add to much at idle and you found it.

    Your truck is idling at 40kpa which is good. The other one is at 55kpa which is worse, this is the one to push some timing at idle to get more vacuum or idle better because of cam. Were still guessing right? No specs? Bigger cams can take 30+ degrees at idle, then need to drop for acceleration. The cam overlap causes an EGR effect and that mixture needs MORE timing!

    You really need to check timing at timing marks and compare to timing table to see if it is accurate! That bin had a bias change and 10+ degrees added in places... and the bias was 9.84 so you may have added 20 degrees!

    "So where did you say your timing was set?"
    I based the .bin on Johnnys truck off of mine, I still have the 9.84 bias in mine. I think when I initially tuned his truck over a year ago I started taking the bias down as an easy way to see how the truck responded to more timing and I may have forgot to put it back. I am putting it back in his tune, and adding it back to the spark tables so they do not go down. When he brings it back over I will check with a timing light with the bias back in. I still do not know his cam specs. He is having problems with leaky valve seals, smokes on start up, so he is putting on a new set of TBI heads machined for the better seals. I told him to check everything to see if there were any signs of a vaccum leaks. So, when I get it back the whole top half of the motor will have been taken off and put back on.

    Should it be possible to get 30 degrees at idle? Becasue my truck would not do it, 26 is about all I could do. Just trying to find out if I still have something going on in the distributor.

    Both of these trucks have the distributors timing set to dead zero by the way, with timing wire unplugged and checked with a timing light. When I get his I will make sure his is set to 0 at the distributor.

    -1999 Hugger Orange SS, LS2 402 T56, 9 inch Ford 3.90 gears, Tuned with HP Tuners
    -2002 Cavalier, Tuned with HP Tuners
    -1994 Full Size Blazer ,383 TBI 4L60E, 4.10's, Tuned with Tunerpro RT (Where it all began)

  6. #21
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    I'd like to hear what timing is with/without bias, will be a shocker to people!

    The oil burning can really mess up an 02 sensor reading.

    Most people couldn't find a vacuum leak if you told them exactly how to. Carb and choke cleaner does not work, brake clean does not work, even nowadays something has changed in starting fluid and it does not work where old starting fluid was fantastic! But spraying flammable fluid around an engine is not a safe procedure anyway... I'm back to propane soldering tourch and a long rubber hose. It's about half as good as old starting fluid. So harder to hear engine change when propane finds vacuum leak, even harder if it's a big vacuum leak because engine is running so bad you can't hear/feel a change. There was a home made way to make a smoke machine I read somewhere. At first I had a laugh at how they made it, then anyone who tried and improved the build all had great results.

    No your not going to get 30 degrees advance at idle without a large cam/low vacuum, that is the indicator. The only reason it works on large cams is the overlap and exhaust gases getting into fuel air mixture at idle. EGR effect. As soon as engine increases RPM and flow is returned the high advance used to make it idle needs to go away! Your truck should be fine at 20-21, you already proved 25-26 is max and getting worse, this proves the 4-6 degree retard when finding detonation.

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
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  7. #22
    EFI tuning addict 96lt4c4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EagleMark View Post
    I'd like to hear what timing is with/without bias, will be a shocker to people!

    The oil burning can really mess up an 02 sensor reading.

    Most people couldn't find a vacuum leak if you told them exactly how to. Carb and choke cleaner does not work, brake clean does not work, even nowadays something has changed in starting fluid and it does not work where old starting fluid was fantastic! But spraying flammable fluid around an engine is not a safe procedure anyway... I'm back to propane soldering tourch and a long rubber hose. It's about half as good as old starting fluid. So harder to hear engine change when propane finds vacuum leak, even harder if it's a big vacuum leak because engine is running so bad you can't hear/feel a change. There was a home made way to make a smoke machine I read somewhere. At first I had a laugh at how they made it, then anyone who tried and improved the build all had great results.

    No your not going to get 30 degrees advance at idle without a large cam/low vacuum, that is the indicator. The only reason it works on large cams is the overlap and exhaust gases getting into fuel air mixture at idle. EGR effect. As soon as engine increases RPM and flow is returned the high advance used to make it idle needs to go away! Your truck should be fine at 20-21, you already proved 25-26 is max and getting worse, this proves the 4-6 degree retard when finding detonation.
    OK I will experiment and see what the timing is with the bias out compared to the log before I put it back in.
    Last edited by 96lt4c4; 10-18-2012 at 09:18 PM.

    -1999 Hugger Orange SS, LS2 402 T56, 9 inch Ford 3.90 gears, Tuned with HP Tuners
    -2002 Cavalier, Tuned with HP Tuners
    -1994 Full Size Blazer ,383 TBI 4L60E, 4.10's, Tuned with Tunerpro RT (Where it all began)

  8. #23
    EFI tuning addict 96lt4c4's Avatar
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    Finally got this one done...Bad battery cables, bad ground to PCM, bad 12 volt wire to 02 sensor, TBI leaking gas, broken regulator spring...Completely rebuilt TBI, splice in 12 volts to 02, fixed battery cables and PCM ground. Retuned the truck for a really rich idle, raised timing at idle and raised idle speed to 700 RPM. The truck smoothed out and the MAP went down to 42 KPA. Truck runs great now....what a pain..
    Last edited by 96lt4c4; 11-18-2012 at 06:32 PM.

    -1999 Hugger Orange SS, LS2 402 T56, 9 inch Ford 3.90 gears, Tuned with HP Tuners
    -2002 Cavalier, Tuned with HP Tuners
    -1994 Full Size Blazer ,383 TBI 4L60E, 4.10's, Tuned with Tunerpro RT (Where it all began)

  9. #24
    EFI tuning addict 96lt4c4's Avatar
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    Didn't mess with checking the timing with the bias out, I just put it back in and retuned the truck. I was a little frustrated...

    -1999 Hugger Orange SS, LS2 402 T56, 9 inch Ford 3.90 gears, Tuned with HP Tuners
    -2002 Cavalier, Tuned with HP Tuners
    -1994 Full Size Blazer ,383 TBI 4L60E, 4.10's, Tuned with Tunerpro RT (Where it all began)

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by 96lt4c4 View Post
    Finally got this one done...Bad battery cables, bad ground to PCM, bad 12 volt wire to 02 sensor, TBI leaking gas, broken regulator spring...Completely rebuilt TBI, splice in 12 volts to 02, fixed battery cables and PCM ground. Retuned the truck for a really rich idle, raised timing at idle and raised idle speed to 700 RPM. The truck smoothed out and the MAP went down to 42 KPA. Truck runs great now....what a pain..
    Very very rarely do I get a vehicle to tune that does not have mechanical issues, that effect tune...


    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by EagleMark View Post
    Very very rarely do I get a vehicle to tune that does not have mechanical issues, that effect tune...

    and they always blame everything on the tune. Heard that somewhere recently.

    To be honest, I have done it myself. After dealing with TBICHIPS, it WAS often true. I had a random high idle for the past year and just brushed it off thinking it was in the tune. I finally bought a multi meter and checked the TPS, which was at .34. adjusted back to .54 and all is good.

  12. #27
    and they always blame everything on the tune. Heard that somewhere recently
    So true! I believe it's one of the reasons many shops simply won't touch this stuff. And I love the words "Oh, this engine was rebuilt by the best in the business!", which somehow makes the tuning even more suspect.

  13. #28
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    the shop that built my motor did in fact blame everything on the tune. however, that blame was well-placed. Easy to blame a mail-order tune, not so on a in-person tune.

  14. #29
    EFI tuning addict 96lt4c4's Avatar
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    Mail order=poop

    -1999 Hugger Orange SS, LS2 402 T56, 9 inch Ford 3.90 gears, Tuned with HP Tuners
    -2002 Cavalier, Tuned with HP Tuners
    -1994 Full Size Blazer ,383 TBI 4L60E, 4.10's, Tuned with Tunerpro RT (Where it all began)

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by 96lt4c4 View Post
    Mail order=poop
    ya think?

    Oh, and brinako's comment is true too. The guy I wanted to build my motor said he would do so in stock form only. He would not do anything beyond that b/c if it ran wrong, he could be blamed. His exact words were "I won't touch it". surprised the hell out of me really.

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