CAM LOBE SEP & EFI??

[Vettepilot]

I used to be a hell of an engine builder and tuner. I also used to be pretty hot at learning new tech.

But now, at 70, learning all this EFI tuning stuff is sounding more daunting than I want to take on; maybe more than I CAN take on.

Maybe a newer, self learning EFI setup is how I should go... (And whatever dam cam it will support.)

???

Vettepilot

[steveo]

let be frank even though my name is steve

don't be ridiculous.

stop saying "used to be" like someone can just up and lose a learned trade. that's not how it works

i know a bit about the brain and about learning

i realize a 70 year old brain is not adept at learning drastically different things than it has already been primed in. but the work and satisfaction of meeting
challenges like this will probably extend your life

if you weren't curious, you wouldn't be here asking about it man you would just hire someone.

it is a steep learning curve but you learning enough to do this on your own (with our help) could be the highlight of the next few years of your life. self tuning aftermarket systems help but always require tweaking.

if you reach an impass, and you give us logs and your current tune, we will help. that's why mark made this place, to help people out

[MO LS Noobie]

let be frank even though my name is steve

don't be ridiculous.

stop saying "used to be" like someone can just up and lose a learned trade. that's not how it works

i know a bit about the brain and about learning

i realize a 70 year old brain is not adept at learning drastically different things than it has already been primed in. but the work and satisfaction of meeting
challenges like this will probably extend your life

if you weren't curious, you wouldn't be here asking about it man you would just hire someone.

it is a steep learning curve but you learning enough to do this on your own (with our help) could be the highlight of the next few years of your life. self tuning aftermarket systems help but always require tweaking.

if you reach an impass, and you give us logs and your current tune, we will help. that's why mark made this place, to help people out

Well said Steve. Don't give up VettePilot. There are times we all need someone "hands on" with a project. If you put your location in your bio, there maybe someone local, or at least a recommendation for a local mechanic.

Good luck.

Jeff

[Vettepilot]

Ok, thanks guys.

Anyone have anything to say about the FITECH offerings? Budget is a really tough consideration here, and the much vaunted Holley systems are so expensive.

A while back, I actually bought a "Stimulator" kit, which is the first step in getting your feet wet with Megasquirt. Have not built it yet.

Then, I suppose, there's the option of a modified OEM GM system.

I don't need nor want a system that makes me breakfast and tucks me in at night. Just something as simple and inexpensive as possible.

Can GM OBD1 be easily set up for tuneability, or is that stuff not available anymore?

Thanks for the encouragement!

Vettepilot

[steveo]

Ok, thanks guys.

Anyone have anything to say about the FITECH offerings? Budget is a really tough consideration here, and the much vaunted Holley systems are so expensive

if these are the parameters:

- throttle body type injection
- budget conscious
- good learning project
- fairly easy to tune
- guys on this forum help you

you want a modified OEM GM system FOR SURE.

what you want for a TBI system is an ECM that has 8192 baud data logging. the older 160 baud ones might frustrate you a bit.

of course with ECMs of that age on a budget, you are going to have to open them, pop chips in and out, and program them.

that said, megasquirt is totally great too.

try to stick with stuff made by hobbyists. holley, fitech, those commercial guys, if you buy into them, you rely on them for support, and a lot of them are business men rather than basement car hackers whereas

[Vettepilot]

So, how easy is it to burn your own chips?? The little reading I did on it made it seem rather daunting to get set up for that...

Then, converting OBD1 to being programmable. Again, over my head.

Sorry guys.

Vettepilot

[steveo]

stop being sorry. i was in the place you are in once and so was everyone else here. that's why you're here.
burning a chip is super easy. you buy a prom programmer on ebay or whatever they are cheap. you put the chip in it and read it modify the bin and then write it back. if you have enough computer skills to post on this forum you have enough computer skills to program a chip.
if you replace the chip with a larger one you have to 'offset' the program. this is also pretty easy.

[steveo]

oh and really old chips are this really cool thing called 'uv erase'
so if you have one of those chips you take the sticker off the 'uv window' and leave it hanging around on your window sill for a while and put the sticker back on
i tuned tons of cars with those UV chips

[Vettepilot]

Separate question.

There's "I need a touch more "accelerator pump" and want to fatten up the midrange a touch."

Then there's "I'll adjust VE and change some Bins and tweak the trims."

I'm WAY in the first camp. Is that gonna fly??

Note: I'm not totally "cave man." I have a wideband AFR setup.

Vettepilot

[steveo]

you can adjust whatever you want. if you don't adjust the VE table or other airflow parameters what's going to happen is the ECM will just trim the fuel to be correct. edit: when i say correct, i mean roughly correct.

adjusting VE is not a scary thing

all it is, is a grid of numbers. higher number more fuel. lower number less fuel.

one axis of the grid is load. one is engine speed.

so if you increase the number by 5% at a certain load and speed in this table, you get 5% more fuel there.

it's not only more precise than tuning a carb, it's way way easier.

also the old TBI ecms are great for caveman tuning. the VE tables are tiny and imprecise, but they work.

if you have a wideband and you learn to log it, adjusting your VE table so all your fueling is correct will be a very very simple and quick task

[1project2many]

Separate question.

There's "I need a touch more "accelerator pump" and want to fatten up the midrange a touch."

Then there's "I'll adjust VE and change some Bins and tweak the trims."

I'm WAY in the first camp. Is that gonna fly??

Note: I'm not totally "cave man." I have a wideband AFR setup.

Vettepilot

Before Megasquirt existed, I met Bruce Bowling at a get together in Ohio. Bruce is a really sharp guy. We were talking about using tuning software. I told Bruce that the biggest hurdle for folks coming from the hotrod world was turning jet changes and accelerator pump shot into VE tables and AE duration. Tools that represent the hotrod way of tuning might be helpful... an "everywhere" fuel adjustment could represents jet changes, a dial for idle mixture, a choke spring tension adjustment for cold starts, a pair of accelerator pump sliders to tailor pump shot, would really help transition between mechanical things and digital bits. I'd even said that it would be really cool to be able to click on pictures of a digital carburetor and distributor to select the changes you want to make. I've never used MS but I believe their software has some of that functionality built in.

I came from the world of carburetors and distributors, and I started modifying EFI when people outside GM had very little clue how GM's software worked. We've had folks here in their '80s learning how to tune and swap efi bits successfully. I think you can get this. I wonder if coming from "I can do this easily with a carb" is going to be a big source of frustration? But maybe this is more like learning a new language. And the new language has more words to describe things so you will be able to understand what the engine wants much better.

So, how easy is it to burn your own chips?? The little reading I did on it made it seem rather daunting to get set up for that...

Then, converting OBD1 to being programmable. Again, over my head.

More detail to go with steveo's posts.

OBD1 is already programmable. Remember when we would tape over the small hole on the back of a cassette so we could put our music there instead of some craptistic band? This is the same thing. There's a chip inside the ecm that's programmed with lounge music. You can change the tune.

Tools you will need:
Eprom burner with software
Eprom eraser

You will also want a way to talk with the ecm to see how the engine is doing. The ecm is able to provide clues to what the engine wants and what it likes. You need software that can interpret the ecm's communication. Most folks use Tunerpro.

You will also want a tool to view and edit the data in the chip. Again, Tunerpro can do the job.

This is the bare minimum. Upgrades can include switching from EPROM to electronically erasable chips, adapters to allow quick and easy chip removal, and an emulator so you can make changes to your calibration while you're driving.

You have a '94 truck already? Automatic equipped trucks have a 7427 or similar ecm already. Those are a great choice for an EFI project. I agree with steveo. Start tuning the '94 to get used to the tools.

[steveo]

as a poor man i bought a cheap Chinese chip programmer
its tuned hundreds of chips now no problem
the sun can function as a free uv eraser in a pinch. it puts out tons of uv

[steveo]

open the lid on that 7427 you bought and have a look

[Vettepilot]

That was me using improper language when I said "programmable". I know it's actually programmable via the chip. What I meant was actually programming in real time using an emulator. But maybe I should take "baby steps"...

Ok, back to burning chips. Do you have a recommendation on what to buy to erase and burn chips, and where to get it?? If it's truly only UV to erase, I could rig up a "black light" in a reflective box if that would work/suffice. I do my daily work on Android tablets. However I do have a laptop computer with Windows 7, TunerPro, and an ALDL to USB cable.

Actually, just for looking, I also have ALDLDroid to read the data stream on my tablet too, though I've not yet used that.

My truck is a 1994 Z71, but I believe the ECM is not 7427. I'll check when I get home tomorrow night. In any case, I'll have an extra chip to play with, right?

Vettepilot