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Thread: Throttle kicker

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    Fuel Injected! JeepsAndGuns's Avatar
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    Throttle kicker

    We have touched on the sbuject some in a few of my other threads and it has lead to a lot of guesing and confusion. I'm thinking, after yesterday, I may have figured it out, or maybe a new theory on it. This is in relation to $0D/$0E and the 7427's, for the new comers. For the past discussions you can read through my old thread here: http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...st-impressions
    We have probably touched on it some in other threads too.

    It all started with the never ending quest for the perfect tune, just how you want it. There are a few quirks and annoyances with the BMHK bin I have been using since the start. Its a 0E 7.4L manual trans bin. I am running a manual trans in my jeep. Back sevral months ago I tried a couple random bins just to see how they ran. After a few with failed results I had one that worked ok. It was BJYM, a 0D 5.7 auto bin. I did all the normal work to it, disabled auto trans, set man trans, disabled trans error codes, turned off egr, inported my injector and cylinder sizes, and my fuel and timing tables. Also did all the needed MPFI mods to it, as well as a handfull of other parameters (like dfco and pe). I worked on it for a while, and remember it running pretty good, funny though, I had to retune my fuel maps a bit. It ran pretty good other than it having a hard time starting. I remember copying a few of the crank to run rpm parameters from bmhk but it didnt change. I later gave up on it and went back to bmhk. Fast forward to this past weekend. Still being annoyed by the few quirks and other nit picky stuff about bmhk, I decided to try that 0D bin again, but decided to do a little more work to it.
    I burnt it back to a chip and tried it again after resetting the pcm. Cold start there was not really any problem, and cold performance and manners were way better, none of the rich and poor running problems of bmhk (I have a thread with a video of it somewhere on here) Warm start I had to crank a good bit longer, and it would kinda spittle to life. Just not like it should. It did however, have a much smoother idle than bmhk. Humm, odd. Idle speed set the same, all injector flow and other setting I could think of were also the same, but for some reason it was just smoother.
    Well I decided to work on the starting issue first. So I spent probably 1-2 hours with two instances of tuner pro, both bins and the parameter finder, and copied all parameters that had to do with "crank to run" or "start" TA DA, I now have the fast starting at all times just like bmhk did. I am now starting to like this bin. Odd, I have zero idle problems like you would think you would with a auto bin. Has never stalled once or even come close. One thing it does do, is the jolt when exiting dfco. The whole vehicle jolts just like a super light/fast blip of the throttle. I had that problem with bmhk, and it turned out being the post dfco AE pulse. I changed it to zero and it went away. I changed it to zero in this bin but still had the jolt.

    One thing I noticed about this bin that got me thinking, was it just didnt seem to pull out as good. Kinda hard to discribe, but bmhk would pull out and go, this one it didnt do it as well. Like I said, kinda hard to discribe. I then remember back to our discussions of this "throttle kicker" and its list of parameters thats in these bins. I remember in bmhk, if I turned off the flag for throttle kicker enable, it wouldnt pull out as good. So that percked my curiosity. I pull both bins back up and start looking at them. BJYM naturally did not have the flag checked, and all the throttle kicker parameters did not looks useable. So I decided to run a test. I copied all throttle kicker values from bmhk into my working bjym, I then turn on the flag and give it a try. Wow, it will now pull out and go like bmhk did, and now, suddenly, the post dfco jolt is gone, now its just ever so gentle and smooth. Ok, now I am REALLY curious. What does this setting do?
    I load the bin to the autoprom, emulate it, start datalogging and go to the 1/4 mile long abandoned dead end road close to the house. I turn the TK off and watch iac counts and injector bpw while pulling out, and when in and exiting dfco. I then turn it back on and watch again. Here are my findings:
    With my running bjym with the throttle kicker disabled, iac opens slightly when pulling out, goes up to around 80 or so counts. Stays around there in dfco and when exiting it.
    With throttle kicker enabled (and the parameters for it from bmhk) as I start pulling out, iac opens very quickly and pegs to 150 counts real fast, basicly giving a boost of air to help when pulling out. When in dfco and when exiting, it stays at 150 counts, then start closing after fuel has been turned back on.
    SO, it appears (my theory anyways) the "throttle kicker" parameters are most than likely a manual tans iac logic. I have not had time to check other 7427 man trans bins (4.3 or 7.4) to see if its active in them. Though, it may not be active in all of them, as I have time I will do some more looking.

    So there my be "throttle kickers" on some vehicles, but why would they put parameters for them in bins/code for vehicles that would not have them, and why do the listed parameters seem to make no sense in relation to what you think there should be for controlling one. Also, wouldnt the wiring diagrams also have the wires for the throttle kicker in them, such as signal in and out. So I am thinking maybe "throttle kicker" may not be the most correct name for this feature in these pcm's. Or maybe it is the correct name, but its used in a different context.

    Thoughts, ideas, other theorys?
    79 Jeep Cherokee, AMC 401, T-18 manual trans, hydroboost, 16197427 MPFI system---the toy

    93 Jeep YJ Wrangler, 4.0L, 5 speed, 8.8 rear, homebrew hub conversion and big brakes, hydroboost, 2.5in OME lift, 31x10.50's---the daily driver

    99 Jeep WJ Grand Cherokee limited, 4.0L, auto, 2wd, leather and power everything, 99% stock---the long distance highway ride.

  2. #2
    Fuel Injected! PJG1173's Avatar
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    um, ah, wow, interesting but worth looking into. I'm running 0d setup for a manual (th350 with high stall converter) might be worth messing with when I get my ve and spark tuned better.
    87 4Runner, 15" spring lift, 3" body, chevy vortec 355, 5.29 gears, 38.5x15.5x15" Boggers, 280hr, 16168625 running $0D
    93 S10, 36x12.5x15 TSL's, custom turbo headers, 266HR cam, p&p vortec heads, $0D Marine MPFI with 8psi boost.
    05 Silverado, 2' lift, 4" exhaust, Bully Dog programmer,

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    RIP EagleMark's Avatar
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    I don''t know what you found or why it is improving your drivability? But intresting from what I was told the Throttle Kicker is?

    http://www.fullsizechevy.com/forum/g...le-kicker.html

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
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    based on how you've described it acting, it sounds an awful lot like the throttle follower logic. i think "kicker" may be a transitional term, kind of like how "choke" would be relatible for the carb guys when the proper term was more along the lines of "air fuel modification based on coolant temp and time since cranking".
    1995 Chevrolet Monte Carlo LS 3100 + 4T60E


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    Fuel Injected! JeepsAndGuns's Avatar
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    Thats why I am thinking that throttle kicker might be a incorrect term for these parameters, or its used in a different context than the actual throttle kicker used in the throttle bodies like in that link.
    Mark, what ecm would have been used in the trucks that would have come with that throttle body? Would the TK in those throttle bodies actually be controlled by the ecm, or would it have been seperate from the ecm?
    If controlled by the ecm, wheres a wiring diagram showing what pins connect to where?
    79 Jeep Cherokee, AMC 401, T-18 manual trans, hydroboost, 16197427 MPFI system---the toy

    93 Jeep YJ Wrangler, 4.0L, 5 speed, 8.8 rear, homebrew hub conversion and big brakes, hydroboost, 2.5in OME lift, 31x10.50's---the daily driver

    99 Jeep WJ Grand Cherokee limited, 4.0L, auto, 2wd, leather and power everything, 99% stock---the long distance highway ride.

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    FWIW,

    "BJKW" has the Throttle Kicker enabled as it is and was the starting bin on my '94 Dually , the TBI has a vaccum operated "kicker" on a bracket on the side of it that is controlled by a solenoid. .

    The truck is MPFI now with the 502 but I retained the Throttle kicker and its functionality , my understanding is that it raises idle for A/C and the like , or at least what i can see on the datalogs.

    I used the same bin for the starting point on my '93 454 with the blower but disabled the throttle kicker in the firmware.

    Pin E10 is where it is outputted from the PCM . Code 36 is the DTC for it .

    Both trucks (as well as everything else I mod) run the '7427 PCM.

    TOM
    Last edited by Nasty-Z; 09-11-2012 at 05:04 PM.
    1994 3500 Dually , 502 (509) , 264HR , Edelbrock MPFI , PFI '7427
    1992 S-10 434 SBC/Tremec - '7427
    1986 Monte Carlo SS
    1984 S-10 , SAS, 496/700R4/205 , D44/14BFF -'7427
    1980 Z-28 496/700R4
    1979 Corvette 496/700R4
    1977 Olds 98 Regency 403/700R4

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    RIP EagleMark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeepsAndGuns View Post
    Thats why I am thinking that throttle kicker might be a incorrect term for these parameters, or its used in a different context than the actual throttle kicker used in the throttle bodies like in that link.
    I agree! Since I started with the same Manual bin as you and had Idle/IAC issues I'm going to try it.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeepsAndGuns View Post
    Mark, what ecm would have been used in the trucks that would have come with that throttle body? Would the TK in those throttle bodies actually be controlled by the ecm, or would it have been seperate from the ecm?
    If controlled by the ecm, wheres a wiring diagram showing what pins connect to where?
    Never did figure it out when I was doing the 427?

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
    -= =-

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    Fuel Injected! JeepsAndGuns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nasty-Z View Post
    FWIW,

    "BJKW" has the Throttle Kicker enabled as it is and was the starting bin on my '94 Dually , the TBI has a vaccum operated "kicker" on a bracket on the side of it that is controlled by a solenoid. .

    The truck is MPFI now with the 502 but I retained the Throttle kicker and its functionality , my understanding is that it raises idle for A/C and the like , or at least what i can see on the datalogs.
    Very interesting. do you have any pictures of it?
    So do you see tps % go up slightly when its active, does the iac do anything? I'm kinda surprised they would go through the time effort and money to add it if the same could be done with the iac. Makes me wonder if it does more than idle up the engine for ac. I thought the ac iac logic was to simply keep the idle speed the same as it cycles on and off.

    The $0E wiring diagrams we have on this site do not show the throttle kicker in them. Does anyone have a wiring diagram showing one?

    This is all getting really confusing and interesting at the same time.
    79 Jeep Cherokee, AMC 401, T-18 manual trans, hydroboost, 16197427 MPFI system---the toy

    93 Jeep YJ Wrangler, 4.0L, 5 speed, 8.8 rear, homebrew hub conversion and big brakes, hydroboost, 2.5in OME lift, 31x10.50's---the daily driver

    99 Jeep WJ Grand Cherokee limited, 4.0L, auto, 2wd, leather and power everything, 99% stock---the long distance highway ride.

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    Fuel Injected! JeepsAndGuns's Avatar
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    Ok, spent some time with google and found a interesting post on another forum. Read post #3 here: http://www.fullsizechevy.com/forum/g...-7-4l-tbi.html

    So its looking like it is iac logic, but also controlls a physical "throttle kicker" too. According to that guy, its there to assist the iac. I'm guessing when the iac flow is maxed out. He also mentions it coming into play to keep the throttle from snapping all the way closed too fast, and is used to ease it closed.
    I'm thinking, with it doing all this, there sure doesnt seem to be as many parameters for it as you would think. Does anyone have a $0E hack? I would love to check it for more throttle kicker parameters. And also, there just doesnt seem to be a lot of info out there on these.

    The plot thickens...
    79 Jeep Cherokee, AMC 401, T-18 manual trans, hydroboost, 16197427 MPFI system---the toy

    93 Jeep YJ Wrangler, 4.0L, 5 speed, 8.8 rear, homebrew hub conversion and big brakes, hydroboost, 2.5in OME lift, 31x10.50's---the daily driver

    99 Jeep WJ Grand Cherokee limited, 4.0L, auto, 2wd, leather and power everything, 99% stock---the long distance highway ride.

  10. #10
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    if it actually held the throttle open, that would essentially be another IAC, just probably not stepper motor controlled.
    1995 Chevrolet Monte Carlo LS 3100 + 4T60E


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    IMAG0295.jpg

    IMAG0292.jpg

    IMAG0293.jpg

    IMAG0294.jpg

    Its a dirty mess but you get the idea .

    It is the stock style 1994 TBI (Has been bored and sleeved) I retained the throttle kicker as I started with BJKW which was the factory bin for the truck.

    TOM
    1994 3500 Dually , 502 (509) , 264HR , Edelbrock MPFI , PFI '7427
    1992 S-10 434 SBC/Tremec - '7427
    1986 Monte Carlo SS
    1984 S-10 , SAS, 496/700R4/205 , D44/14BFF -'7427
    1980 Z-28 496/700R4
    1979 Corvette 496/700R4
    1977 Olds 98 Regency 403/700R4

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    Fuel Injected! JeepsAndGuns's Avatar
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    Very interesting. Thanks for the pics! What does the valve/solenoid look like that controlls it? Is it just like the egr or ccp valves/solenoids? How many wires?
    0D wiring diagrams show the tcc controll on wire E10, but 0E show tcc on E11. Interesting, I wonder why there are paramaeters for it in 0D if its not even used in 0D vehicles?


    Unrelated question, whats that attached to your fuel rail in the 3rd pic, a sending unit for a pressure gauge?
    79 Jeep Cherokee, AMC 401, T-18 manual trans, hydroboost, 16197427 MPFI system---the toy

    93 Jeep YJ Wrangler, 4.0L, 5 speed, 8.8 rear, homebrew hub conversion and big brakes, hydroboost, 2.5in OME lift, 31x10.50's---the daily driver

    99 Jeep WJ Grand Cherokee limited, 4.0L, auto, 2wd, leather and power everything, 99% stock---the long distance highway ride.

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    RIP EagleMark's Avatar
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    From what's been reported on this it seems the Throttle Kicker is the external vacuum unit shown above that came on 454/7.4L engines. Which JeepsandGuns and I used for starting point on our conversions in $0E manual bin. But never used the external Throttle Kicker. This would explain the IAC/Idle/Error codes I had issues with. In retrospect it was the wrong bin to start with.

    The first link I shared above shows pictures of TBI units with a big box on the side which I always thought was the governor and now still do.

    Why it's in $0E is because that was primarily for 7.4L, why it's in $0D is probably because they had planned to use it with one PCM for all. These were very confusing times trying to get everything in order for GM, technology changing and OBDII coming along.

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeepsAndGuns View Post
    Very interesting. Thanks for the pics! What does the valve/solenoid look like that controlls it? Is it just like the egr or ccp valves/solenoids? How many wires?
    No problem on the pictures, the solenoid is to the left in the 3rd picture , looks just like an EGR solenoid , by energizing it vaccum pulls the "kicker" in , unloading it from the throttle lever. 2 wires go to it , one ignition + and a siginal form E10 on the PCM (7427).

    Quote Originally Posted by JeepsAndGuns View Post
    0D wiring diagrams show the tcc controll on wire E10, but 0E show tcc on E11. Interesting, I wonder why there are paramaeters for it in 0D if its not even used in 0D vehicles?
    I attached the only diagram I have of the "idle speed control actuator" as they call it , it is for 4.3/7.4 manual trans and shows the output on E10 , exactally where mine is , mine is a 4L80E and FWIW I have not been able to find it on any automatic wiring diagrams so I do not know what is up with that.

    454.jpg

    Quote Originally Posted by JeepsAndGuns View Post
    Unrelated question, whats that attached to your fuel rail in the 3rd pic, a sending unit for a pressure gauge?
    Yessir , sender for an Autometer Full sweep Fuel pressure gauge.

    Quote Originally Posted by EagleMark View Post
    The first link I shared above shows pictures of TBI units with a big box on the side which I always thought was the governor and now still do.
    Yes , it is a governor , I have a few of these TBI's (I use them for the injector pod's) and they were all from medium duty trucks (C-60/70 style) with power take off setups .

    Quote Originally Posted by EagleMark View Post
    Why it's in $0E is because that was primarily for 7.4L, why it's in $0D is probably because they had planned to use it with one PCM for all. These were very confusing times trying to get everything in order for GM, technology changing and OBDII coming along.
    I have only encountered it in certain 7.4 bin's in $0E , I haven't seen it used in anything else , but could and probably are wrong.

    HTH

    TOM
    Last edited by Nasty-Z; 09-12-2012 at 03:51 PM.
    1994 3500 Dually , 502 (509) , 264HR , Edelbrock MPFI , PFI '7427
    1992 S-10 434 SBC/Tremec - '7427
    1986 Monte Carlo SS
    1984 S-10 , SAS, 496/700R4/205 , D44/14BFF -'7427
    1980 Z-28 496/700R4
    1979 Corvette 496/700R4
    1977 Olds 98 Regency 403/700R4

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    RIP EagleMark's Avatar
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    I think that narrows down the Vacuum Throttle Kicker to $0E ?

    I'd bet it does more then opens throttle at idle before starting and is on while driving to prevent throttle blades from closing inbetween shifts. For pollution reasons but side effect is easier shifting.

    1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
    1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
    -= =-

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