350 with 30lb injectors

[EagleMark]

ZEDRATED, if you can post that log it would be awesome. I'm not so sure this calibration is the one to start with but it's fun to look at, that's for sure. Everything that follows in this post is for the people that enjoy looking at other calibrations to see how they were "built."

This is a wonderful cal to look at and try to work out what was happening. The custom cal previously posted is based on APYU which is an auto trans calibration for a 5.7. It's in a manual trans car. This calibration has been heavily modified from stock in the following manner:

VATS disabled
Manual trans bit enabled
EGR code 32 disabled
Fuel pump voltage code 54 disabled
Max spark advance increased by 4 degrees
Injector constant raised to 30 #/hr
idle speed adder for park/neutral set to zero
EGR disabled through temp
MAF sensor low flow code 33 threshold raised to 65 gm/sec
AIR disabled
Main spark advance table is completely modified and it's just all over the place. Under full load there's up to 7 degrees added advance at 4k rpm while at 3200 and 4800 there only an additional 4 degrees.
PE spark advance has been reduced in all cells with a maximum of 8 degrees taken out at 4800 rpm.
Knock recovery rate has been increased by up to 61% at 3200-4800 rpm
Max knock retard has not been changed from stock
%TPS to enable PE has been lowered by 45% above 4500 rpm
%TPS to enable PE when hot hasn't been adjusted
PE fuel has been increased by 6% at 56C and 3% at 80 and 104 deg C but nowhere else
PE fuel has been increased by 12.5% from 4000 to 5600 rpm
No changes to injector voltage correction tables
No changes to low PW correction tables
No changes to AE pulses
initial cranking fuel pw decreased
increases in desired idle vs temp but it's all over the map.
Fan temps lowered
MAF tables are scaled down as much as 5 gms/sec
Default MAF value vs %tps and rpm isn't adjusted

All other values I've looked at are stock. Anyone want to discuss why this calibration runs poorly when cool? For best results, use a compare to view main spark advance, PE enable and spark values, and PE fueling.

I was really looking forward to looking at that tune until I read your review... I'm not going to look now... dam it I gotta look...

[ZEDRATED]

No offense taken, I do know very little about tuning and I know that there is a lot involved. I was just coming in here to see if anyone has the same set up as me and could let me try one of their custom bins.
So what you told me is probably why it runs so bad when I first start it up and in open loop?
I honestly don't have the knowledge, or time to learn how to tune. I didn't want you to tune it for me either as I know it takes a lot of time. Again, just wondering if someone has a bin I can try for this set up or if anyone knows of someone other than PCMFORLESS.COM that can make a custom bin for me.
1project2many, I'm either looking for a bin I can try that someone has or looking for someone to pay to custom make a bin for my needs. If you do have the time and are interested I am willin to pay. I'm not looking for a free bee.
Thanks.

[EagleMark]

No offense taken, I do know very little about tuning and I know that there is a lot involved. I was just coming in here to see if anyone has the same set up as me and could let me try one of their custom bins.
So what you told me is probably why it runs so bad when I first start it up and in open loop?
I honestly don't have the knowledge, or time to learn how to tune. I didn't want you to tune it for me either as I know it takes a lot of time. Again, just wondering if someone has a bin I can try for this set up or if anyone knows of someone other than PCMFORLESS.COM that can make a custom bin for me.
1project2many, I'm either looking for a bin I can try that someone has or looking for someone to pay to custom make a bin for my needs. If you do have the time and are interested I am willin to pay. I'm not looking for a free bee.
Thanks.

Someone may take you up on that since you can log, not me as $6E is not something I have worked on in person.

Hey I looked and in TunerPro def it shows Disable EGR if MAT < X 296.15 Is this how EGR was disabled in your def? It's the only EGR temp paremeter I could find. I'm guessing the TP XDF is wrong? Would have been easy with TPS%.

If you compare the spark tables in wireframe you can see it's basically a stock timing table that has been smoothed... wrong... with PE spark removed it has less overall WOT PE spark then stock.

Anyone want to discuss why this calibration runs poorly when cool?

I didn't see anything but would like to discuss...

[1project2many]

I appreciate your honesty and your willingness to pay. Tuning a car without driving it can become very difficult. I rarely do this, and it's only when it seems like there's a good match between car owner and myself in personality, skill, and a general approach to the vehicle. Whether or not I see this match is irrelevant though. I'm so buried in projects right now it's not even funny. I just can't commit to taking on this job because I know I don't have the time to see it through to completion.

I do tend to have a bulldog-like approach to solving problems though. And for some reason I've decide that I need to get the proper injector data for your 30# injectors, which is an absolute must for getting this calibration correct. To wit, when an injector is opened there is a certain time delay between "start to open" and "delivering consistent fuel." This time delay is different at different voltages, and it's a large part of delivering correct fuel when the engine is at idle and low speed. If the ecm doesn't know these values then it will not open the injectors for the correct amount of time to deliver the required fuel. With these larger injectors in your engine these numbers are going to be very important to getting the calibration correct. Personally I'd likely buy a couple of sets of OEM 3800 Supercharged injectors and sell the yellow "go fast" parts but if the corrections can be obtained then that's what matters. If you can look at an injector and try to identify it that will help anyone who's going to build you a chip. Some of the older Bosch orange injectors are now a yellow-orange so that may be what's in your car. You'll really need to identify the injector to get a quality tuner to stand behind his tune.

[ZEDRATED]

1project2many, I looked closer at the injectors and they are Accel and are yellow top and just confirmed with the previous owner and that's what they are. I don't drive the car much and if you had some extra time that you can find I would pay you for your time to tune the car as I can at least log and burn the bin file. If you do not have the time then do you know anyone who is good and can do it?

[1project2many]

I looked closer at the injectors and they are Accel and are yellow top

I just noticed that you said that. Sometimes I start a reply and it takes a long time to get it posted. New posts show up while I'm still getting my facts together. I should get into the habit of checking for new posts before sending my reply.

[1project2many]

I didn't see anything but would like to discuss...

Sure. There's a real issue with the PE mode changes. PE entry point has been reduced to 25% throttle at 2k rpm and above. The ecm uses PE% change to fuel / air tables and the spark adder table to adjust AFR and timing. The PE % change to fuel/air vs temp table shows zero additional correction below 138 deg F(56 C) then jumps to a 6% increase in F/A. The next two entries starting at 176 deg F reduce additional added fuel to 3%. Then there's no correction again. (Side note: Is this car located in warm, sunny CA?) No matter where this calibration is in terms of fuel, it gets noticeably richer at a temp between startup and closed loop entry. Stock PE mode calls for AFR to be below 10:1 when the engine is below 138 F but stock PE isn't active until 75-80% throttle. By 75-80% throttle in an auto trans cal the trans is in the process of downshifting or has already shifted and engine rpm is quickly on the rise. In fact, that huge change in AFR when cold covers for stock AE to some degree. But a manual trans can go to 100% throttle in any gear and the rpm doesn't change. In that case you want the AFR to remain relatively constant but instead this cal causes a huge increase in fuel.

PE Spark only adds to the issue by reducing timing from 2 to 8 degrees across the board every time the throttle crosses 25%. It gets richer and spark advance decreases at the same time. It's not like the tuner's using the PE spark reduction to make up for lack of auto trans downshift, either. Spark is reduced by greater amounts as engine rpm increases, just the opposite of what's needed to correct for low rpm, high load situations. This entire strategy is designed to cover for knock retard without spending time tuning. If it knocks add fuel then pull spark, so let's just build that into the cal right away.

Aggravating this mess is a complete lack of adjustment to the acceleration enleanment tables. The main purpose of AE is to keep the mixture in the intake from getting too lean and exploding when the throttle is opened. The amount of fuel needed is heavily based on the injector delivery rate and the intake manifold volume. This car has larger injectors and a smaller intake yet the AE pulses are exactly the same as stock. And then it's running the injectors on the stock correction tables, likely delivering more than expected fuel at the lower PW's commanded by the ecm with no way to correct it.


This thing must smell like raw fuel and probably wants to stumble when the throttle is pressed in open loop. I'm surprised it feels like it runs well in closed loop. The logs seem to show a different story. It's too bad there's no easy to convert the datamaster log to TP. But you can download datamaster and view the log files for free.

[ZEDRATED]

You nailed it bang on. It does smell very rich and bogs out when releasing the clutch in open loop.
I do have a log in TunerPro as well and I will post that up tonight. I just find reading datalogs a lot easier in tts Datamaster but I will post that up.
So...... What do I do from here lol.
Glad to hear that I believe I was correct about this bin file being way off instead of the tuner telling me that I have a mechanical problem :-)

[EagleMark]

Couldn't find any voltage corrections for that injector? For an idea of what is needed and how much changing injectors effects outputs look at this page for differences in settings. Without these settings it is hard to come up with a base tune.

http://injector-rehab.com/shop/lag.html

[ZEDRATED]

Oh and by the way, the car is drivin in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. I only drive it in warm temperatures above 10 degrees Celsius. I don't drive it in the winter. I'm not sure where to go from here :-(

[EagleMark]

You nailed it bang on. It does smell very rich and bogs out when releasing the clutch in open loop.
I do have a log in TunerPro as well and I will post that up tonight. I just find reading datalogs a lot easier in tts Datamaster but I will post that up.
So...... What do I do from here lol.
Glad to hear that I believe I was correct about this bin file being way off instead of the tuner telling me that I have a mechanical problem :-)

You could always have a mechanical issue! But 1project2many has revealed some bin file issues to start.

Where to start? 1227165 is an old ECM, $6E is a MAF system. Would it be better to start with a differant SD ECM and better documented mask? Seems there is a lot of changes to SD from MAF in this situation like 1227730-27 ECM with $8D and more notably S_AUJP bin project. Or for a beginner tuner with a hot engine the Dynamic EFI system may be your best choice for this. It does come with many starter tunes, no burning chips, Auto VE tuning, advanced data logger and great tech support.

Calculating estimated HP of engine will determine injector size and pressure needed. Having injector specs like Voltage Corrections is information needed to start a calibration. Without it's all a guess as to what is going to work/happen.

[ZEDRATED]

Again, I dont see it being a mechanical issue because it runs fine with the stock chip.
And it is a MAF system not a SD.
This is the GM service number in the computer: 16198259
Thanks.

[EagleMark]

I understand it is MAF, that's why I considered a SD system...

The stock chip you posted is $32 and the mail order tune is $6E... I just haven't played with this ECM and masks to know how that would work? You've obviously done enough diagnosing to rule out mechical issue, but never rule it out in the end. The ECM can not tell, it expects "A" (22 pph injectors) and if given "B" (30 pph injectors) it can't tell or fix it. Same with A-B being fuel pressure or a vacuum leak or...

HTH!

[ZEDRATED]

As I said before, fuel pressure, vacuum leak, etc......
would all be there no matter what chip I plug into the computer..........

[1project2many]

Nobody's saying the chip isn't a problem. What we're saying is there may be other issues as well. If you are predetermined that there are not, or could not be, problems outside the chip then you're risking trouble. Both chips are wrong for your engine and comparing their performance as a diagnostic tool is inappropriate. Question: If broken wrench A slips when tightening a bolt, and broken wrench B slips when tightening the same bolt, is the problem with one the wrenches or the bolt? A: Get a proper wrench but keep an eye on that bolt.

The main difference is between $32 and $6E is that $32 was written to work with a 9th injector for cold start. This was a temperature activated, constant flow injector in the floor of the plenum. $6E had a "new" fast start routine that eliminated the cold start injector. $6E has always been considered an upgrade to $32 and ARAP (a Vette cal) was rumored to have been the best MAF equipped L98 calibration GM built. Supposedly it was tuned for the cars GM handed out to magazines and enthusiasts for performance testing. The TPIS miniram has no cold start injector so $6E is appropriate. The best choice is an ecm swap to a 1227730 with a speed density calibration from the last couple years of tuned port. Mark's probably right with that recommendation. But if you're not likely to get into tuning then $6E plus your ecm (the number you listed is just the last GM part number for what was originally a 1227165) is about as good as it's likely to get.

I haven't come up with injector corrections for those injectors. I want so far as to install Accel's Calmap software and download a sample cal with Accel 30# injectors hoping to view them but wouldn't ya know, the injector corrections are not available to be viewed or changed unless you have the "pro" version. Sorry, I'm not paying for a hardware lock to view that data. Again, if the corrections are not available you're not going to have much success with a calibration. You can look around for "greg banish dvd" or "calibrated success injector dvd" and you can determine through forum discussions just how many people are finally catching on to how important these numbers are. If you can't get them from Accel then I'd recommend selling the injectors and installing some replacements for which these numbers are available.