As for the fans, I have a euro-lite controller module to control them seperate with a controller and a manual switch. This is why I said to disable them in the tune. For some reason the guy I bought the car off of put the fuel pump directly to the fuse box hot in run power so it is on all the time with the key on, that along with the fans do suck up a lot of voltage with key on before a start.
tbh i never adjust valves with the engine running squirting oil all over, that woulda been pretty hard to have to do when i was working in the machine shop building engines.. i could only imagine having to tell the boss"excuse me but can we gat a test stand set up so i can put every engine we put together on it . fire them up so i can adjust the valves". seems pretty old school backyard mechanic jkinda stuff..Originally Posted by ZEDRATED
as for the afr its kinda irrelivent at this stage what the ecm is seeing as an ideal goal when you can see your running lean all accross the board.. im guessing that your fuel soak(vapor lock) condition is nothing more then a byproduct of running lean. lean will be hot hot and fans running constantly dont make that any easier to find not to mention is just begging for a short like on those expensive fans, its great that they can keep the operating temp of the coolant so level strait accross the board but thats not really how fans were intended to work and the 100% duty cycle is going to give them a short life.
now as for rich smell at idle.. closed or open loop? see idk because i never saw a good base of cold start then just idle up to operating temp, just idle nothing else.. alot can be built off this base.
as for timing.. yes there are knock counts and way too many but these are probably yet another offspring of the lean running and there not pulling much timing so in reality i do think this bin would take very little to make decent but does take time and testing when through messages and not right in hand.
like for instance i do cheat and lie to the ecm to see what results and use those findings to tune, this may or may not be correct but to me it shows me easily and quickly what a change im thinking of doing in the tune will do before i go through the effort of doing it right, but again means time and testing., things we dont seem to have so instead i'm trying to at least get you one more burn to try but have to make many changes all over so basically could get us closer, further away or fall right on its face and making so many changes all at once without testing after each one leads to a whole lotta "which change helped and or hurt the tune"
anyhow i'm trying anyhow
btw you say "I have a euro-lite controller module to control them seperate with a controller and a manual switch. This is why I said to disable them in the tune. For some reason the guy I bought the car off of put the fuel pump directly to the fuse box hot in run power so it is on all the time with the key on, that along with the fans do suck up a lot of voltage with key on before a start. "
when is it controlling them? i just see full on, are they veriable speed? i dont get the controller i guess?
again though i dont think the lifter is causing the knock counts, i think the leaness is but lifters should still be properly adjusted because it can throw other things off like vacuume, it can wreak havoc on that causing the ecm to constantly make changes up and down instead of being smooth. also be warned that running with misadjusted lifters can damage things.
Last edited by xtreamvette69; 08-11-2013 at 12:11 AM.
There are numerous ways to lash valves in an engine. I prefer the firing order method because it works with any camshaft type. The firing order method allows you to lash the valves on an engine stand or with the engine in the vehicle and not have to readjust them again.
SBC firing order: 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2
STEP #1
Find top dead center for piston # 1:
Many people think that if the timing pointer lines up with the TDC balancer mark that this is TDC #1. That mark could be TDC #6. This is because there are 720 degrees crankshaft rotation in one complete firing sequence. There are two ways to find TDC #1 first is by pulling the #1 spark plug, holding your finger over the hole and turning the crankshaft until it tries to blow your finger away, then once the timing mark comes up this will be TDC #1. The other method requires the valve cover or intake to be off. You can look at the lifters or rockers of #1 and #6 cylinders. When #1 is at TDC, #6 will have both valves open slightly. If you move the balancer timing mark to each side of the timing pointer, you should see both lifters or rockers of #6 moving up and down and #1 should remain stationary. If it is vice versa then you are on TDC #6 and need to move the crankshaft 360 degrees or one full turn.
STEP #2
Adjust the the lash of #1 cylinder:
While you turn the nut down jiggle the pushrod up and down. When the play just stops go 1/2 turn more. You need to make sure to stop when the pushrod just quits moving up and down, then 1/2 turn more on both the exhaust and intake valves.
STEP #3
Turn the crankshaft clockwise 90 degrees:
The easiest way to tell if you have went 90 degrees is with a balancer with degreed timing marks. You can make your own marks if the balancer is off the engine. Just measure the diameter of the balancer (from one side to the other) and then multiply that by 3.14 (pi) to find the circumference, then divide by 4. Example: Balancer measures 8 inches, which would be 8 x 3.14 = 25.12. Then divide this number by 4, which would be 25.12/4 = 6.28 (or real close to 6.25 inches). Then you can lay it off starting at original timing mark and scribe some marks at the distance you came up with. You can also buy timing tape and install it but the only thing is it won't stay on for very long. A total waste of money to me. Anyway, turn the crankshaft 90 degrees to the next mark on the balancer for the cylinder in the firing order, cylinder #8. Repeat Step #2.
STEP #4
Continue adjusting:
Keep turning the crank in 90 degree increments and lashing the valves for each cylinder in the firing order until all the cylinders have been adjusted. Remember, the firing order is 18436572. Do #1, then #8, so on and so on until done. When finished with the last cylinder, you should have to turn the crank one more 90 degree turn and you will be back on #1 TDC.
ok to try and speed this alonge fast as possible through messages, i want you to try this one and give me a cold start idle up to and into closed loop log then a few quick revs then a few slow longer revs then you can test driving log if you wish(watching for lean and knock)..(if car is already warm just do it the best you can then just so it shows the listed things).
its not properly edited but rather i just changed things accross the board for now to see the effects(tricking and lieing to ecm) your "tuner" used this tricking and lieing as well but left it in there and called it done, hmm? (the 6* base timing... hense he added spark advance all accross the board rather then adjusting the tables) so im guessing if its good enough for a "pro" good nuff for me.. differance is i use it as a tool not as a finished product.. i hounestly dont know how someone can use a cheat and call it a finished project muchless and charge for it, but i guess it happens all the time.
we will worry about and set your pump shot(bog) once we have this other stuff ironed out.
also fans have been disabled as well as o2 diag. turned back on.
remember please to use one of the fixed datastream defs i posted before so i dont have to try read errors k
Last edited by xtreamvette69; 08-11-2013 at 12:53 AM.
Sounds good. I will do it Sunday, I had a wedding all day today. I am going to adjust the lifters first and then do the cold start log right up to closed loop and do the revs you requested and try a little drive as well.
As for the fan controller it isn't on all the time, there is a temperature probe that sticks into the rad and you can turn a knob to make it come on and off at whatever set temperature you want along with a switch in the car for override. With only the one fan I found the car was overheating hence I added a push fan in front of the condensor and both fans go on with A/C on or at set temp from the controller or with switch inside the car. The rich idle condition seemed like all the time, cold, open loop and closed loop warm but I will set the valve lash, burn the bin, and do the log you requested, again, thanks so much for your time.
kk sounds good and n/p... btw what temp thermostat are you running?
160 degree high flow thermostat.
Just adjusted the rockers, keep my fingers crossed that the noise is gone, it wasn`t really there when cold but once the engine got warm the noise was noticeable coming from the right side. Going to do the log now with the ADX file you provided Xtreamvette. Thanks.
OK Xtreamvette, here is the datalog you requested with the bin burned that you asked me for. Valves adjusted and noise is gone, it wasn't all that loud to begin with but glad its fixed. The car hesitates when snapping the throttle in neutral, smells really rich on idle cold and hot, and even smells when driving, hope we didn't kill any birds yet hahaha. Knock counts go high especially when snapping the throttle but for some reason this has always been the case, I also am attaching a datalog done right after with the tuners file and there isn`t much knock even at WOT but again when snapping the throttle in neutral the knock counts shoot high, about 20 at a time, I saw a jump from 50 to 70 in just one throttle snapping. Thanks again:
test a quick log with this one, same log prcess idle, then some snaps and slower revs.. to fix this richness you must understand we have to richen it up all accross the board because your richness is caused by rge ecm throwing more fuel in to fix the lean condition, hope that makes sence to you.
my other question now is... are we sure those are even 30# injectors and how do we know? are we going by a part number or just old owners word?
at this point im guessing closer to 24 or 26's tbh is why i ask.
i belive flow rate is marked right on them.
if they are indeed 30's i'm starting to think you may have some stuck(known issue with accels) but we will see.
if at anytime you get tired of burning chips let me know because be warned i'm trying to pop em up quick as possible to acheive your goal.
again yes i see where it smells rich but the why isnt that its running rich its that its running lean and the ecm is forcing it rich to fix it.
im betting with throttle snap on his the reason there so many is because he just locked it in lean(no o2 to help adjust it)
oh and gratz on the valve adj. success.
Last edited by xtreamvette69; 08-11-2013 at 10:53 PM.
Thanks, will post another log shortly, and the previous owner did tell my they are 30 and just checked they are yellow top and stamped Accel and 30 right on them. I listened to all of them this morning with my stethoscope and all sound like they are clicking equally.
I just went and reviewed this thread.
Your first tuner had a chip running well in CL but it did not run well in OL. This was done in $6E. After three attempts he refunded your money because he was convinced there was a mechanical issue.
Second tuner could not get $6E to run so used $32 and could not get it to run CL so he left it OL.
Third tuner says "again yes i see where it smells rich but the why isnt that its running rich its that its running lean and the ecm is forcing it rich to fix it."
All three sound like a vacuum leak!
Earlier in thread you were told the Mini Ram intake is hard to tune, but we've never got there yet. Also earlier it was determined you have Accell 30 Lb injectors, which do not have any Injector vs Batt voltage offset tables! The tables from second tuner were modified from stock, but not to Accell 30LB injectors. Without these there is no way you have an ice cube chance in hell of ever getting fueling correct at idle to off idle especially with your voltage changing to 12.4 volts at idle with fans and hopefully 14.1 volts while at cruise RPM.
What does MAP do in these MAF cars? Cause it ain't working?
1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
-= =-
Just wondering why you set base timing to 14.06? Anyways, here is the log, still smells rich cold and hold but seems a little better and the stuttering when snapping the throttle got worse with some backfires. Here is the log:
Oh, and I would log all day for 7 days straight if you could get this thing running right lol, car seemed to run best on the initial bin you gave me, although I know you are doing tests on these last ones.
ahh finally were outta the base leaness but into the rich a little bit too much let me change some things, i'm assuming backfiring out exhaust not intake, correct?
as for the snapping throttle we well address that in a bit then ptobly add the timing back in after that then work on the tables for diff conditions.. atm were just shooting for a good base afr
Posting Permissions
Bookmarks