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Thread: At wits' end ( short trip )

  1. #16
    Electronic Ignition!
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    I will turn everything back on and try to run it.
    I do have a wideband (AEM 30-0300 ), but have not been able to get it to log through TunerPro ( Blue pin 68 high and 28 low ).
    What I cant understand is that the more fuel I give it, the more (STFT and LTFT ) it just takes out? For all practical purposes this ( except for home made intake tube and headers) is a "stock swap".. why am I so far off?

  2. #17
    Fuel Injected! ralmo94's Avatar
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    To log WBo2, you should connect the 0-5vlt analog signal to blue pin 55. This is egr position sensor .
    You need to have commanded egr to 0, disable egr codes, and zero out egr fuel reduction and egr spark tables.
    If you are keeping fuel trims on, all you can do is aim for 0 trim. If you go open loop, you can tune to 14.7 on your gauge, then turn cl back on and tune O2 swing points to match almost no trim.
    If you add 10%, and the fuel trims take out 10%, then you add another 10%, fuel trims will now want to take out 20%, the further you get from true, the longer it takes for it to learn what's right.
    No need to re-invent the wheel. But we can make it better

  3. #18
    Fuel Injected! Pulse_GTO's Avatar
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    I adjusted your open loop fuel table to be commanding stoich, it was commanding a richer fuel mixture the way it was. I also set your stoich afr to 14.08 to reflect 10% ethanol in pump gas.

    There are 2 files attached, one is set up for MAF only, the VE table will be ignored, the second file is SD only, so it will fail and ignore the MAF and run purely on the VE table. Feel free to give these a try and see if you can control your fueling a little easier.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  4. #19
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    EXCELLENT! That is the kind of help that I am looking for and appreciate this very much. I will try to wire the wide band next weekend as described but we threw in the "SD only" bin and made a few adjustments to the VE table just based on watching the displays and have made more progress today than any other day this year. Thank you so much.

  5. #20
    Fuel Injected!
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    I decided to prove a point with the whole intake tract altering the MAF calibration. This has a LS3 cartridge MAF in a 100mm tube with a Saxon PC 6:1 flow straightner in it. My van reacted the same way the stock van with the GM LT1/Vortec 3.5" MAF in the prior video did with a missing air filter. My MAF calibration started as a GM LS3 525 hp calibration and only needed slight changes to run correctly. From memory had to add about 12% down at 1500hz and remove 4% over 7,000 hz but otherwise it was extremely close. Remove the filter and it nearly stalls.

    Excuse the mess outside, just pulled down an old above ground pool and working on a kitchen remodel and I have not had the time to load up a trailer to take to the dump yet. I have seen LS trucks do the same thing with cheap Spectre or Ebay warm air intakes that have a cone filter on the end even with the stock 85mm MAFs. Change the intake tract and you will be tuning the MAF transfer calibration.

    https://youtu.be/OtgLUNThifc

  6. #21
    Fuel Injected! ralmo94's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fast355 View Post
    Change the intake tract and you will be tuning the MAF transfer calibration.
    thank you for confirming what I always believed.
    True or not I also believed that exhaust modification also alters it, air in air out.
    Although maybe not enough to worry about?
    No need to re-invent the wheel. But we can make it better

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralmo94 View Post
    thank you for confirming what I always believed.
    True or not I also believed that exhaust modification also alters it, air in air out.
    Although maybe not enough to worry about?
    Headers definately throw the calibration off. If you took a stock engine and put headers on it, the PCM will read at a higher dymanic airflow and put it in an area of the timing map that GM tuned with very little advance.

  8. #23
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    Fast, I know you're a smart guy, obviously you came to realize this is smart http://www.saxonpc.com/100mm-cells-for-100.html
    I end up using multiple honeycombs in intake tracts to calm the tumbling that can occur. When you alter a known good transfer function you will find it isn't accurate at different temps, barometric pressures, altitudes, humidity, etc.

    Big camshafts and bad exhaust sometimes require the distance to the MAF to be changed to further away and if packaging doesn't allow this, time to switch to speed density. Sometimes a switch to e78 or e92 computers that allow dual MAF's is an option too.
    -Carl

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by In-Tech View Post
    Fast, I know you're a smart guy, obviously you came to realize this is smart http://www.saxonpc.com/100mm-cells-for-100.html
    I end up using multiple honeycombs in intake tracts to calm the tumbling that can occur. When you alter a known good transfer function you will find it isn't accurate at different temps, barometric pressures, altitudes, humidity, etc.

    Big camshafts and bad exhaust sometimes require the distance to the MAF to be changed to further away and if packaging doesn't allow this, time to switch to speed density. Sometimes a switch to e78 or e92 computers that allow dual MAF's is an option too.
    I have not run across issues altering MAF transfer functions in nearly 20 years of tuning. Not saying it cannot happen, but it is not something I have seen in many different platforms. I mainly tune GM and Nissan.

    I would not go to speed density, it is near pointless and not nearly as accurate. A recalibrated MAF transfer is far more accurate then the best speed density. I had two Dodges that never could achieve accurate fueling, atleast not like a GM or Nissan.

    I also converted my TBI to an 85mm MAF years ago.
    Last edited by Fast355; 11-15-2022 at 06:04 AM.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralmo94 View Post
    To log WBo2, you should connect the 0-5vlt analog signal to blue pin 55. This is egr position sensor .
    You need to have commanded egr to 0, disable egr codes, and zero out egr fuel reduction and egr spark tables.
    If you are keeping fuel trims on, all you can do is aim for 0 trim. If you go open loop, you can tune to 14.7 on your gauge, then turn cl back on and tune O2 swing points to match almost no trim.
    If you add 10%, and the fuel trims take out 10%, then you add another 10%, fuel trims will now want to take out 20%, the further you get from true, the longer it takes for it to learn what's right.
    Ralmo94
    I am in the process of getting this all hooked up and adjusting the settings ( after work and should make more progress this weekend ), but the definitions file (.adx ) that I have does not have the egr listed. Would you or someone in this forum happen to have the one I need please?
    Thank you in advance.

  11. #26
    Fuel Injected! ralmo94's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Some Fool View Post
    Ralmo94
    I am in the process of getting this all hooked up and adjusting the settings ( after work and should make more progress this weekend ), but the definitions file (.adx ) that I have does not have the egr listed. Would you or someone in this forum happen to have the one I need please?
    Thank you in advance.
    I don't have any oBd2 ADX's, I primarily use HP tuners since I invested in there interface long ago. I wasn't aware there were any specific OS ADX's available?
    What interface are you using, could you use a different loging program with it? Perhaps the torque app?
    No need to re-invent the wheel. But we can make it better

  12. #27
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    I am trying to get it to work with Tunerpro RT so that I can correlate the AFR with the proper square in the VE table with data tracing ( so far I am recording the screen and wide band with my phone.. effective, but not very precise and quite convoluted ). The adx file I was given was setup to use a post-cat-o2 but I have been unable to get it to work yet.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fast355 View Post
    I have not run across issues altering MAF transfer functions in nearly 20 years of tuning. Not saying it cannot happen, but it is not something I have seen in many different platforms. I mainly tune GM and Nissan.

    I would not go to speed density, it is near pointless and not nearly as accurate. A recalibrated MAF transfer is far more accurate then the best speed density. I had two Dodges that never could achieve accurate fueling, atleast not like a GM or Nissan.

    I also converted my TBI to an 85mm MAF years ago.
    Hiya Fast, thanks for the reply. I think we are both on the same page and you obviously know how tricky MAF calibration can be. I am with you on a MAF calibration done correctly is much better than speed density. Of course if we can provide good blending for both, it does offer some redundant qualities if one fails. I mainly do GM, like you, and on the occasions I have to do a Ford(MAF only garbage) or a Dodge(SD even worse garbage) it's amazing how bad these things are and can still get thru CARB testing when stock or with somebody's(Rousch, SCT, many many others).

    I grew up on SD tuning(early 90's), so, it doesn't bother me but MAF is king IMO.

    I get a lot of tunes to do that someone else has completely screwed up the driveability. Many have spent a Lot of money and the MAF tune makes all the power, and can't drive at all at part throttle on different days, because they got into the maf tables figuring a percentage here a percentage there works fine. Plenty of times I just look at the MAF table(even on Fords) and just put it back to stock(if it has the range) and start over from stock. Fix the tube, or, stock MAF and go, Yuck.

    Anyway, good to have a talk :)
    -Carl

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by In-Tech View Post
    Hiya Fast, thanks for the reply. I think we are both on the same page and you obviously know how tricky MAF calibration can be. I am with you on a MAF calibration done correctly is much better than speed density. Of course if we can provide good blending for both, it does offer some redundant qualities if one fails. I mainly do GM, like you, and on the occasions I have to do a Ford(MAF only garbage) or a Dodge(SD even worse garbage) it's amazing how bad these things are and can still get thru CARB testing when stock or with somebody's(Rousch, SCT, many many others).

    I grew up on SD tuning(early 90's), so, it doesn't bother me but MAF is king IMO.

    I get a lot of tunes to do that someone else has completely screwed up the driveability. Many have spent a Lot of money and the MAF tune makes all the power, and can't drive at all at part throttle on different days, because they got into the maf tables figuring a percentage here a percentage there works fine. Plenty of times I just look at the MAF table(even on Fords) and just put it back to stock(if it has the range) and start over from stock. Fix the tube, or, stock MAF and go, Yuck.

    Anyway, good to have a talk :)
    It is always good to discuss things with you Carl. I too started with speed density TBI/TPI and GM CCC Q-Jet.

    I too have fixed vehicles for the same reason. I actually just fixed a bone stock 5.3L to LQ9 swap. Ran poorly on startup, idled like a WW2 tank, etc. Guy had paid $700 for a dyno tune and it only ran well at WOT. The shop did not even have the correct injector data in the tune. Not a huge deal at WOT but at part-throttle fueling was everywhere. I put a stock MAF cal back into it too because it had a stock airbox, stock intake tube and stock maf.

  15. #30
    Fuel Injected!
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    Hiya Fast, it's funny we were just talking about this.

    I get a cam change guy who just came from the dyno shop a few days before. It hauls ass but can't drive it across town. I suck the file out and told him I will be in touch in a few days if I can help.

    Holy fockin crapola.

    Code:
    	Power Enrich Fuel Equiv. Ratio Vs. RPM
     
      RPM   Eq. Ratio
         0    1.260   
       250    1.260   
       500    1.260   
       750    1.260   
      1000    1.295   
      1250    1.315   
      1500    1.296   
      1750    1.276   
      2000    1.260   
      2250    1.310   
      2500    1.310   
      2750    1.310   
      3000    1.310   
      3250    1.451   
      3500    1.451   
      3750    1.486   
      4000    1.486   
      4250    1.486   
      4500    1.486   
      4750    1.510   
      5000    1.510   
      5250    1.510   
      5500    1.510   
      5750    1.510   
      6000    1.510   
      6250    1.510   
      6500    1.510   
      6750    1.510   
      7000    1.510   
      7250    1.510   
      7500    1.510   
      7750    1.510   
      8000    1.510   
     
     
     	MAF Sensor Air Flow Vs. Output Frequency - Low
      
       Hz    gm/sec
         0    0.000 
       150    0.776 
       300    1.063 
       450    1.349 
       600    1.636 
       750    1.922 
       900    2.208 
      1050    2.571 
      1200    3.008 
      1350    3.522 
      1500    4.111 
      1650    4.776 
      1800    5.596 
      1950    6.524 
      2100    7.601 
      2250    8.694 
      2400   10.154 
      2550   11.604 
      2700   13.217 
      2850   15.005 
      3000   16.826 
      3150   18.971 
      3300   21.631 
      3450   24.375 
      3600   27.005 
      3750   30.191 
      3900   33.179 
      4050   36.450 
      4200   39.681 
      4350   44.158 
      4500   47.974 
      4650   52.450 
      4800   56.100 
      4950   62.110 
      5100   66.817 
      5250   72.034 
      5400   77.879 
      5550   84.013 
      5700   90.434 
      5850   97.143 
      6000  104.187 
      6150  111.576 
      6300  119.283 
      6450  127.308 
      6600  135.652 
      6750  144.468 
      6900  153.846 
      7050  163.656 
      7200  173.896 
      7350  184.567 
      7500  195.668 
      
      
     	MAF Sensor Air Flow Vs. Output Frequency - High
      
       Hz     gm/sec
        7650  207.188 
        7800  219.126 
        7950  231.488 
        8100  244.275 
        8250  257.487 
        8400  271.480 
        8550  286.121 
        8700  301.342 
        8850  317.143 
        9000  333.523 
        9150  350.483 
        9300  368.023 
        9450  385.563 
        9600  403.103 
        9750  420.643 
        9900  438.184 
       10050  455.724 
       10200  473.264 
       10350  490.804 
       10500  508.344 
       10650  525.884 
       10800  543.424 
       10950  560.964 
       11100  578.504 
       11250  596.044 
       11400  613.584 
       11550  631.124 
       11700  648.664 
       11850  666.204 
       12000  683.744 
       12150  701.284 
       12300  718.824 
       12450  736.364 
       12600  753.904 
       12750  771.444 
       12900  788.984 
       13050  806.525 
       13200  824.065 
       13350  841.605 
       13500  859.145 
       13650  876.685 
       13800  894.225 
       13950  911.765 
       14100  929.305 
       14250  946.845 
       14400  964.385 
       14550  981.925 
       14700  999.465 
       14850 1017.005 
       15000 1034.545
    OMFG, he had been into the MAF table like he was a Ford guy, the he PE corrected wide open throttle to "fix" his fack. Besides all his other f'ups, I threw the file away and started from stock so I could fix it.

    Example of a couple things :)

    Code:
    Fixed
       
       	Power Enrich Fuel Equiv. Ratio Vs. RPM
        
         RPM   Eq. Ratio
            0    1.180   
          250    1.180   
          500    1.180   
          750    1.180   
         1000    1.180   
         1250    1.180   
         1500    1.180   
         1750    1.180   
         2000    1.180   
         2250    1.180   
         2500    1.180   
         2750    1.180   
         3000    1.180   
         3250    1.180   
         3500    1.180   
         3750    1.180   
         4000    1.180   
         4250    1.180   
         4500    1.180   
         4750    1.180   
         5000    1.180   
         5250    1.180   
         5500    1.180   
         5750    1.180   
         6000    1.180   
         6250    1.180   
         6500    1.180   
         6750    1.180   
         7000    1.180   
         7250    1.180   
         7500    1.180   
         7750    1.180   
         8000    1.180   
        
     
     	MAF Sensor Air Flow Vs. Output Frequency - Low
      
       Hz    gm/sec
         0    0.133 
       150    0.133 
       300    0.133 
       450    0.133 
       600    0.133 
       750    0.133 
       900    1.035 
      1050    1.778 
      1200    2.412 
      1350    2.989 
      1500    3.561 
      1650    4.179 
      1800    4.892 
      1950    5.722 
      2100    6.682 
      2250    7.782 
      2400   10.186 
      2550   12.590 
      2700   14.995 
      2850   17.183 
      3000   18.833 
      3150   19.616 
      3300   23.508 
      3450   26.507 
      3600   29.718 
      3750   32.162 
      3900   37.158 
      4050   40.582 
      4200   44.594 
      4350   48.470 
      4500   53.165 
      4650   57.727 
      4800   62.643 
      4950   67.510 
      5100   73.626 
      5250   80.031 
      5400   86.745 
      5550   93.794 
      5700  101.202 
      5850  108.997 
      6000  117.208 
      6150  125.865 
      6300  134.996 
      6450  144.631 
      6600  154.789 
      6750  165.475 
      6900  176.684 
      7050  188.418 
      7200  200.674 
      7350  213.451 
      7500  229.018 
      
      
     	MAF Sensor Air Flow Vs. Output Frequency - High
      
       Hz     gm/sec
        7650  242.977 
        7800  257.488 
        7950  269.910 
        8100  282.754 
        8250  299.051 
        8400  312.863 
        8550  330.133 
        8700  344.324 
        8850  358.672 
        9000  377.055 
        9150  396.285 
        9300  416.082 
        9450  435.918 
        9600  455.266 
        9750  473.594 
        9900  490.367 
       10050  505.066 
       10200  538.938 
       10350  563.039 
       10500  587.859 
       10650  613.414 
       10800  639.719 
       10950  666.773 
       11100  694.594 
       11250  723.195 
       11400  752.578 
       11550  782.766 
       11700  813.766 
       11850  845.578 
       12000  878.227 
       12150  911.711 
       12300  946.055 
       12450  981.266 
       12600 1017.344 
       12750 1054.313 
       12900 1092.172 
       13050 1130.953 
       13200 1170.641 
       13350 1211.266 
       13500 1252.828 
       13650 1295.328 
       13800 1338.813 
       13950 1383.266 
       14100 1428.688 
       14250 1475.109 
       14400 1522.547 
       14550 1571.000 
       14700 1620.484 
       14850 1671.000 
       15000 1722.563
    -Carl

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