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Thread: PCM 16196396 Range selector 4L60E?

  1. #121
    Fuel Injected! ralmo94's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob 689 View Post
    Since getting the fueling dialed in i only get knocks when i first start it when it fires initially and then sometimes when i sbap the throttle and under power enrichment. I reduced the power enrichment table and i think that solved knock retard i havent seen it come back since but the knock counts still pile up eventually even tho no knock retard occurs.
    Counts are normal, if its not retarding its fine. If you wish to dial in timing there are several write ups on it.
    My advice is take it slow

    On the third gen forum there was a spreadsheet for creating a spark table.
    Just remember the heads don't like as much timing as the old open chambers, and 87 octane probably doesn't tolerate much if any more than stock unless you have a big cam that bleeds off compression.

    I think I would try changing the zero's to 2's and log it and see if retards, if no noticeable performance increase I would put it back to stock. just my $0.02
    No need to re-invent the wheel. But we can make it better

  2. #122
    Fuel Injected! ralmo94's Avatar
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    http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...gnition-Timing

    Here is a thread I started asking the community about spark advance.

    Stevo's reply in post #8 was a really good explanation
    No need to re-invent the wheel. But we can make it better

  3. #123
    Fuel Injected! PlayingWithTBI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralmo94 View Post
    Counts are normal, if its not retarding its fine. If you wish to dial in timing there are several write ups on it.
    My advice is take it slow

    On the third gen forum there was a spreadsheet for creating a spark table.
    Just remember the heads don't like as much timing as the old open chambers, and 87 octane probably doesn't tolerate much if any more than stock unless you have a big cam that bleeds off compression.

    I think I would try changing the zero's to 2's and log it and see if retards, if no noticeable performance increase I would put it back to stock. just my $0.02
    Is this the one you're talking about? 84Elky posted it here too.

    https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...ml#post6301288

  4. #124
    Fuel Injected! ralmo94's Avatar
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    Yes I believe that is the one. I remembered it having a pretty good write up along with it too
    No need to re-invent the wheel. But we can make it better

  5. #125
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    pretty common to see knock counts on startup and shutdown. tip-in knock counts could be timing related or fuel mixture. TBI heads don't need much all in timing they are an efficient chamber. 25-30* all in. Cruise will like mid-30s to low 40s, this is not your "regular" 36* all in SBC head, so try and not pay attention to too much you read on the internet...
    Last edited by tayto; 10-10-2022 at 10:58 PM.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralmo94 View Post
    If you are using the xdf from my zip folder change visibility to level 2 only,
    Main Spark advance table is there.

    Looking at the stock timing tables they bottom out at 0 deg
    Im sure it is a multiplier somewhere
    The tables from my original prom before the pcm swap dip quite a bit into the negatives in a few tables i think the coolant temp one was one of the main ones. I worked late last night to copy as much over as i could that made sense and was in essence the same table and interpolated the parts were the tables resolutions didnt match and i copied over a bunch of PE stuff and yeah anyways NOW the truck is running right finally and i can fine tune everything. needless to say my afr is off again.

    In trimalyzer do you use loose cell strict cell or geometric?

  7. #127
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    How do you tune Power enrichment specifically?

    Also how would i go about venturing away from a stock timing table without screwing it up? How do you tell what it needs for timing? Knock counts still exist in rare instances. i think my PE AFR is a little too lean maybe? I dont know how to tell what it needs cus obviously it doesnt need 14.7 but how do i know if it need 11.5 or 12.5, 13.0? whats the target in PE and how do you calculate it? Trial and error?

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by tayto View Post
    pretty common to see knock counts on startup and shutdown. tip-in knock counts could be timing related or fuel mixture. TBI heads don't need much all in timing they are an efficient chamber. 25-30* all in. Cruise will like mid-30s to low 40s, this is not your "regular" 36* all in SBC head, so try and not pay attention to too much you read on the internet...
    What are the consequences of too far retarded ignition?

    Aside from ridding it of knocks how do you know what it needs for peak power or at least as close to there as humanly possible without a dyno.
    Last edited by Rob 689; 10-12-2022 at 08:51 AM.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralmo94 View Post
    Counts are normal, if its not retarding its fine. If you wish to dial in timing there are several write ups on it.
    My advice is take it slow

    On the third gen forum there was a spreadsheet for creating a spark table.
    Just remember the heads don't like as much timing as the old open chambers, and 87 octane probably doesn't tolerate much if any more than stock unless you have a big cam that bleeds off compression.

    I think I would try changing the zero's to 2's and log it and see if retards, if no noticeable performance increase I would put it back to stock. just my $0.02
    Thank you. Yeah i probably wont mess with timing much really until i get the vortec built and swapped in. I might try changing the zeros to see like you say. gotta finish the fueling first i think.

  10. #130
    Fuel Injected! ralmo94's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob 689 View Post

    In trimalyzer do you use loose cell strict cell or geometric?
    I personally use the geo that it is on by default, seems to work best for me, at least in open loop.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob 689 View Post

    How do you tune Power enrichment specifically?
    The way I do it, is dial in the ve first, then I use trimalyzer and filter for pe true and Change the commanded afr the amount it is off from my target afr in arbitrary value mode.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob 689 View Post
    I dont know how to tell what it needs cus obviously it doesnt need 14.7 but how do i know if it need 11.5 or 12.5, 13.0?
    If you Google really hard, you can find a temp versus afr graph, and you can also find an afr vs flame speed graph, and there are more than one with different ranges. Peak heat is around stioch, if I remember correctly peak torque is around 12.8 - 13.5,
    And peak horsepower between 11.8 - 12.8. exact place in ranges depend on each individual engine.

    If I remember correctly fastest burn speed is at around 12.5-12.8 afr

    As you go richer the fuel has a cooling effect to the air as it evaporates. Also more fuel takes longer to burn, these two things are why PE spark is more than the table. Also as you go leaner than stioch it takes longer to burn, why lean burn likes more timing.

    Too rich and you are leaving power on the table, too lean and you can induce heat and knock with the heat possibly.
    Most Original engines these day can survive full load without pe, example, my dodge NEVER entered PE unless you had it 95% throttle,
    And I can assure you it reached full load lots of times at 50-60% throttle.

    I like to aim for about 12.8 on the wide band, if there is no knock, I like to go a touch leaner and see if power picks up or drops a noticable ammount along with keeping an eye on kr. If kr occurs either take out timing or add fuel.
    That's how I do it.
    Last edited by ralmo94; 10-12-2022 at 09:36 AM.
    No need to re-invent the wheel. But we can make it better

  11. #131
    Fuel Injected! ralmo94's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob 689 View Post
    Thank you. Yeah i probably wont mess with timing much really until i get the vortec built and swapped in. I might try changing the zeros to see like you say. gotta finish the fueling first i think.
    If you swap vortec heads, I would start with a stock vortec timing table then
    No need to re-invent the wheel. But we can make it better

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralmo94 View Post
    I personally use the geo that it is on by default, seems to work best for me, at least in open loop.


    The way I do it, is dial in the ve first, then I use trimalyzer and filter for pe true and Change the commanded afr the amount it is off from my target afr in arbitrary value mode.



    If you Google really hard, you can find a temp versus afr graph, and you can also find an afr vs flame speed graph, and there are more than one with different ranges. Peak heat is around stioch, if I remember correctly peak torque is around 12.8 - 13.5,
    And peak horsepower between 11.8 - 12.8. exact place in ranges depend on each individual engine.

    If I remember correctly fastest burn speed is at around 12.5-12.8 afr

    As you go richer the fuel has a cooling effect to the air as it evaporates. Also more fuel takes longer to burn, these two things are why PE spark is more than the table. Also as you go leaner than stioch it takes longer to burn, why lean burn likes more timing.

    Too rich and you are leaving power on the table, too lean and you can induce heat and knock with the heat possibly.
    Most Original engines these day can survive full load without pe, example, my dodge NEVER entered PE unless you had it 95% throttle,
    And I can assure you it reached full load lots of times at 50-60% throttle.

    I like to aim for about 12.8 on the wide band, if there is no knock, I like to go a touch leaner and see if power picks up or drops a noticable ammount along with keeping an eye on kr. If kr occurs either take out timing or add fuel.
    That's how I do it.
    Okay thank you makes sense.

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