Can I get some eyes

[EagleMark]

I looked up some Jeep timing for the 360 and came up with a lot of differant numbers between 75 up from 2.5 advance to 10 advance, the one that goes with the graph you show is 10 or 15 at altitude. Bottom line is none were higher then around 38 degrees total. One 304 for 49 state was 44.5 while CA was 38.

So total of 38, then some distributor machine test numbers, mechanical advance max of 16 and vacuum advance max of 8.5.
16+8.5=24.5 from total of 38 = 13.5 base

Which is equivilent to just about any engine from that time from factory to meet emmissions = the timing table in the bin I gave him is well within safety margins of me trying to help while not there in person = plenty of room to add some timing.

= run the bin as is, don't worry about BLM right now and don't worry about idle. Get some data. With your cam and altitude we can work on idle with spark and fuel.

Start data fully warmed up and driven a little.

[srobertsfsj]

I plan on doing a lot of checking wires and testing this weekend. I am even going to buy an AC Delco module and try and swap it out. If anything, I will at least have a spare.

On the 360 timing numbers you found, I am sure you know, but some people think that the AMC 360 and the Dodge 360 are the same engine. They are completely different, I have had people swear up and down they are the same lol.

[EagleMark]

You have no idea how many times I've heard a Scout II came with a 304 AMC motor too...

Although most engines from that time are simalar as far as timing. Still does not mean it's optimum. Just what works good for drivabilty and emmissions.

[shimniok]

Thanks for looking up the timing info. I was just about to crack the TSM again. Anyway the numbers you post all seem plausible.

The other thing I've occasionally heard is it's a Ford 360... well, ok, there's lots of Ford electronics on the motor but... :) Then there's the AMC 327 that showed up in the early Jeeps that folks confuse with the Chebby of the same displacement... Those two motors are so unalike it'd be impossible to mix them up if you looked at 'em.

I have heard some IH Travelalls came with an AMC 401, though, and I haven't heard any disputes on that yet.

At least with a 345 there's little mistaking it for anyone else's motor.

[EagleMark]

Yes the Travelall came with an AMC 401 and the scout came with an AMC 258. The 258 was for fuel milage and weight at the time and the 401 was because of a shortage of 392 engines.

People just use the most well known or known to them and think that is what it is. They have no idea what the actual motor looks like. I actually thought a Jeep 327 was a chevy about 10 years ago, had no idea jeep made one, till I popped the hood...

[srobertsfsj]

Ok, set the base timing to 0 deg and loaded the bin you sent with no changes, here is what I found:

-Checked a couple of plugs and they looked good actually
-Checked the HEI 7-pin module I have installed and it is a BWD stock replacement unit and NOT an Accel aftermarket, the Accel died on my shortly after the initial install and I replaced it with the BWD.
-At idle it looks like the timing is about 2 deg off, TunerPro says 16-17 deg and timing light says 18-19, is this acceptable?
-The Spark Advance hack shows 16-17 at idle but the spark table says it should be at 26, do you know why this would be?

I am going to do a tuning run tomorrow morning but at idle, in C/L, the BLM shows around 144 so VE is lean at idle.

[EagleMark]

The timing of 2 off is acceptable for now, actually perfect as it is a stock Spark Latency, not accurtate Spark Latency, difference of timing table to actual is the Warm Spark Bias.

I was looking through the bin and hack and there are so many possibilities for timing issues with this changed. I'd really like to see a log run to see if your timing discrepancy goes away. Remember we saw changes for 15 degrees from one cell to next and 15 degree change in same cell. This was a major point of trying a known bin, I have the logs from that bin and this does not happen? Or do we have a mechanical issue causing this?

144 BLM won't hurt a thing. Don't even worry about what BLM says untill your warmed up and driven a little. Actually if you want to work on fuel go ahead, can also fix the TCC issue I missed, just leave other stuff alone till log, Get a log, this weird issue is driving me nuts. It was very hard to spot, then very hard to not spot in other logs. I love a challenge!

[srobertsfsj]

This is probably a stupid question, there is no wiring to the transmission so how does it know to lock the TCC?

[EagleMark]

ECM knows, but there's no where to send signal. Does not hurt anything, just annoying seeing TCC come on when there is none to lock up...

[srobertsfsj]

gotcha, I'll set the min temp for TCC lock to max, hopefully that will disable it.

[srobertsfsj]

Ok, did a run this morning with your bin, NO changes (except for TCC off). Power was much better than last time with the initial timing set to 10 BUT I was still running 5 to 10 deg warmer than it should be, this tells me I am still too retarded (LOL). I am attaching the log file from the run. Again, after the run, I tried to modify the VE table using the VE correction spreadsheet and it wont save!!! Not sure what I am doing wrong...

Also, I attached a spreadsheet that someone from binderplanet put together for the AMC 360 engine, there is multiple tabs. Basically it dissects the 360 timing table, I was hoping to get your thoughts on it.

[EagleMark]

Not sure how to associate retarded timing with coolant temps? I can change mine a lot either direction and coolant temps stay the same... but that is a good cooling system working.

Stock timing is a good guideline for starting a conversion, but even if it was stock engine with a carb timing would be first thing to change for any performance gains, let alone your cam. So don't get stock on what stock timing is.

I'll look at your log here in a little bit...

[EagleMark]

I watched your log, finally! Unless you fixed something it proves my point of messing with to many things in a bin. Your timing is all within a few degrees per cell and ajoining cells. Only one cell had a 12 degree change and it is in an area where knock could have pulled timing or just a glitch in data. Where before you had many, many areas of unexplianed major spark changes.

I think you have a good start now to adjust your VE table and Spark table, work on idle etc... your cam, elevation and low vauum at idle would really improve by raising idle as high as you can with the auto like 700 instead of the 550 your trying at. If you get this inline your high idle to banging into gear will greatly reduce to a smoother transition.

Also knock counts are within reason for a conversion, very few, if you wrap the knock sensor with about 6 wraps of teflon tape it could de-sesitize it enough to be useful. Or add the brass elbow trick.

[gregs78cam]

Not sure how to associate retarded timing with coolant temps?

At a steady cruise, not enough advance can increase cylinder and coolant temps.

When I had the carb and HEI on the Camaro the vacuum advance diaphram went T.U. and even though it ran good and idled fine, at 60mph and 2000RPM temp would climb. I could let it idle or go WOT and temp would come down. Same water pump and fan I have on it now.

[EagleMark]

At a steady cruise, not enough advance can increase cylinder and coolant temps.

Good info! I think I knew that but have always had enough cooling or close enough spark to not notice. Thanks!