97427 Manual Bin Conversion

[PJG1173]

you can also do a paramater summary list from the view menu. you still can't copy paste but more info fits into the screen. I'm interested in this also since i am starting on a tbi conversion on a 5.7 with a TH350.

[belaw]

Okay, its official, I have too much time on my hands.... I started comparing several bins using the Difference Tool in TunerPro. One of the first things I noticed is that there is a lot of difference between a 5.7 and 7.4 $0E bin, but the differences between manual and auto trans bins are pretty straight-forward. So, I compiled a listing of ALL of the differencences (other than error codes) between $0D bins from a 4.3 manual and 4.3 auto transmission. Well, once I had all that information loaded into Excel, it dawned on me that it would be easy enough to track the differences (other than tables) between the bins, and then once I had done that I had to great idea to add a column for a values used in a $0D 5.7 auto trans bin for these same parameters. Then I did the same thing with $0E bins (which I'm not going to post).

Anyway, below is what I came up with, which should be a good starting point in evaluation of the changes that need to be made to an auto trans bin for manual. If anyone is interested let me know and I will send them the $0E spreadsheet.

Hope this helps!

Brian

COMPARISON OF $0D MANUAL AND AUTO TRANS. BINS
BJYL (5.7 Auto) vs. BDXK (4.3 Auto) vs BJFC (4.3 Manual)
Location:	Parameter:	BJYL (5.7 auto)	BDXK (4.3 auto)	BJFC (4.3 manual)
---AIR FUEL MODE FLAGS----
400E	Shift Light Enable	Not Set	Not Set	Set
400F	Torque Converter Clutch Only	Not Set	Not Set	Set
400F	Manual Transmission	Not Set	Not Set	Set
---IDLE SPARK ADVANCE----
4159	Max MPH for Idle Spark	4.0 MPH	2.0 MPH	15 MPH
415F	RPM Offset	00	00	150 RPM
---SPARK ADVANCE TABLES----
4174 - 4287	Main Spark Table vs MAP vs RPM (Open Throttle)	Table	Table	Table
4298 - 43AB	Main Spark Table vs MAP vs RPM (Closed Throttle)	Table	Table	Table
43B7 - 442D	CTS Spark Advance Compensation vs Vacuum vs Temp	Table	Table	Table
---BURST KNOCK PARAMETERS----
46DA - 46E1	Burst Knock Retard vs Temperature	Table	Table	Table
---DYNAMIC SPARK PARAMETERS----
46E2	Spark Advance Derivative Gain- RPM Rising	0 deg.	0 deg.	33.8 deg.
46E4	Max Spark Advance to be Subtracted- RPM Rising	0 deg.	0 deg.	7.7 deg.
46E5	Spark Advance Derivative Gain- RPM Falling	0 deg.	0 deg.	33.8 deg.
46E7	Max Spark Advance to be Added- RPM Falling	0 deg.	0 deg.	7.7 deg.
46E8	Temperature for Dynamic Spark Advance Off	151.3 c	151.3 c	67.3 c
46E9	Temperature for Dynamic Spark Advance On	-40 c	-40 c	99.5 c
46EA - 46EE	Filter Coefficient vs TPS	Table	Table	Table
---EGR ENABLE TABLES----
485D - 4899	EGR Spark Correction vs RPM vs Vacuum	Table	Table	Table
---IDLE 02 PARAMETERS----
493F	PID Table Airflow Scaler	3.51	2.29	3.05
---ACCELERATION ENRICHMENT TABLES----
4B71 - 4B74	AE Correction Factor vs Temperature	Table	Table	Table
4B93 - 4B97	MAP Difference AE Correction Factor vs Temperature	Table	Table	Table
---FUEL TRIM PARAMETERS----
4CE2 - 4CE8	Mean Rich/Lean O2 Volatage Threshold vs Airflow	Table	Table	Table
4CEB - 4CF1	Rich O2 Voltage Threshold vs Airflow	Table	Table	Table
4CF2 - 4CFA	Lean O2 Voltage Threshold vs Airflow	Table	Table	Table
4D08 - 4D10	Proportional Counts vs Slow O2 Error	Table	Table	Table
---IAC PARAMETERS----
4E85	Closed Loop Idle		Not Set	Set
4EB2	Initial Idle Speed Multiplier in P/N	1.5	1.5	1.0
4EB8 - 4EC4	IAC % Flow vs Temperature (P/N)	Table	Table	Table
4EC5 - 4ED1	IAC % Flow vs Temperature (Drive)	Table	Table	Table
---IDLE SPEED TABLES----
4F4C - 4F53	Idle Speed vs Temperature (Drive, A/C Off)	Table	Table	Table
4F54 - 4F62	Idle Speed vs Temperature (Drive, A/C on)	Table	Table	Table
---CCP COMPENSATION PARAMETERS----
4F80 - 4F83	Idle Purge Compensation	Table	Table	Table
---IDLE FOLLOWER PARAMETER TABLES----
504D - 5055	IAC Throttle Follower Gain vs Temperature	Table	Table	Table
505C - 5063	IAC Throttle Follower Gain vs RPM	Table	Table	Table
5065	Max TPS for Throttle Follower (Drive)	25% TPS	100% TPS	73.4% TPS
5066	TPS Throttle Follower Coefficient (P/N)	0.145	0.039	.063
5068 - 506F	TPS Filtering period vs MPH	Table	Table	Table
5072 - 507C	TPS Filtering Coefficient vs MPH	Table	Table	Table
507E	MAP for Scaling Down TPS Filter Coefficient	17.7 kpa	16.3 kpa	10.7 kpa
507F	Multiplier for Reducing Filter Coefficient	0.5	0.5	0.8
---SHIFT LIGHT PARAMETERS----
5109-510C	Upper Engine / Trans RPM Ratio vs Gear	0	0	Table
510D - 5110	Minimum RPM Thresholds vs Gear	0	0	Table
5111 - 5114	TPS Load Scalar vs Gear	0	0	Table
5115	Minimum Temperature for Shift Light	0	0	14.8 c
5116 - 5117	TPS Lower Limit for Shift Light	0	0	Table
5118	RPM for Mandatory Shift Light	0	0	4,500 RPM
5119 - 511A	Shift Light Activation Delay	0	0	Table
511A - 5146	TPS Load Threshold vs RPM	0	0	Table
5147 - 514A	TPS Shift Light Threshold vs Baro	0	0	Table

[EagleMark]

That's awesome!

You can post spreadsheets here... I want an $0E.

[CDeeZ]

Yes I would love to see your original spreadsheets that you've created comparing the diferences. Can you upload the actual spreadsheets??

I'm going to brainstorm here for a second. Is it possible that these differences between auto vs manual bins is predominately for emissions purposes?? It seems that alot of these bins (not surprisingly) are calibrated for the purpose of achieving low emissions, high fuel mileage, etc. I don't believe they were really ever concerned with cranking out the most power possible by massaging the tunes a little bit more, so why would the stick vs auto bins be any different?

And yet another theory, maybe the differences don't mean much at all.. GM did make the mistake on the 747 ECM of having VE values over 100 (even though it was truncated by ECM), so I think this goes to show that maybe there isn't always a method to their madness as we often might like to think.

[belaw]

CdeeZ:

I sent a copy of the spreadsheets to Mark and I think he's going to post them, but if you want send me a PM with your email address and I will send them to you tomorrow.

I'm hoping that some of you guys who actually understand how these values interact can post your thoughts. Afterlooking at the differences between a 5.7 and 7.4 bin I've scrapped my plan of starting with a 7.4 manual bin; my current thinking is to start with a 5.7 $0D auto bin and modify the idle parameters for a manual.

[PJG1173]

very interesting.

[EagleMark]

Well lets thank Belaw for a lot of work!



He has OKed this for everyones use so I am going to post it, remember to look these over, check things, we can always adjust if need be.

Since he's so good with spreadsheets he may be a lot more help this fall when I start converting all the tuning spreadsheets to web pages so everything we do with spreadsheets can be done online!

[belaw]

I spent some more time with the $0D bins and the TunerPro Difference Tool and have added additional pages to the spreadsheet showing the tables values for BJFC (4.3 manual), BDXK (4.3 auto) and BJYL (5.7 auto). Although its now spread over 12 screens, at this point the spreadsheet lists ALL of the differences between $0D manual and auto bins (except for error codes and transmission stuff).

This should be a good starting point for someone who wants to run $0D with a 5.7 and manual transmission, at least for someone who knows how to interpret the data. My motto is that those who can, do; those who can't compile spreadsheets for those who can.... I hope some of you find this useful!

Brian

[EagleMark]

With all this information your sorting, in the end we will have the 5.7L Manual trans $0D bin and a better understanding of the differences!

[CDeeZ]

Excellent work Brian. Thanks for sharing that.



I've been looking this over and here's my opinion.




Shift light Enable, TCC Only, and Manny Tranny are all bits that would need to be checked in a manual application


The manual trans application BJFC 4.3L has a higher MPH threshold for Max Idle Spark meaning that the idle overspeed and underspeed spark multipliers will be used up to a higher MPH. I wonder if this is specific to the V6 application......


RPM offset appears to be some kind of qualifier for using idle SA


The Open Throttle Spark Advance is VERY similar between the 4.3 manual and 4.3 auto The Same table “Open” for the 5.7 looks basically identical to the timing map of several other 5.7 $0D. I think for the spark advance tables I'd personally prefer to use the 5.7 spark tables for a starting point for a 350 engine, it should be much closer to the timing needs of a 350


CTS Spark Advance is a spark advance multiplier that adjusts/biases for different engine temps.... This table is apparently added into the main spark tables Everything looks pretty close between these tables with the one exception that I noticed. The 4.3 bins have negative values (spark retard) in the low temperature and 40-80 kPa range.
If you look at both the tables in this category for the 4.3L engines, they appear to be identical. This suggests to me that this table is more dependent on displacement of the engine than the transmission used.


Burst Knock Retard VS Temp: I noticed both the auto bins have similar values, but the 5.7 bin has slightly more knock retard, only a couple degrees. I think maybe the difference here because a manual transmission makes a little more noise so perhaps they “padded” the spark retard a little bit to compensate for extra noise produced by manual transmission?


Spark Advance Derivative Gain RPM RISING: Well this is obviously a constant but I don't get what exactly it does. The parameter comment for this one just says “engine spark advance used with manual transmissions” It would be nice if we could get some more info on what this one does.


I'm actually in the dark on what most everything does in the category of “Dynamic Spark Parameters”


EGR: people still use those things? :)


I don't know how PID Table Airflow Scaler does it's thing. But, the values are reasonably close with this parameter across all 3 bins compared.






“AE Correction Factor Vs Temp”: Those values are so close they might as well be identical, I don't see any issue there at all.


“Map Difference AE Correction Factor VS Temp”: Same as above


I wonder if this is a case of TunerPro interpreting the data ever so slightly differently. You can see this if you open up like a spark table and set some value to whatever, say 20. Then, if you save, close, and reopen the table that same value you entered is changed to 19.8 or 20.1 or something like that.


IAC PARAMETERS: Closed Loop Idle: Here is something interesting, my bin (BJLH 5.7AT) Does NOT have this bit checked, yet looking at my logs, I do in fact go closed loop and from what I can tell it even idles closed loop and stays closed loop once warmed up.


Initial Idle Speed Multiplier in P/N: This must play into IAC logic somehow, but I don't know how this one works.


IAC % FLOW vs Temp P/N: It was my understanding that with a manual transmission, the PCM/ECM basically always thinks the vehicle is in “Drive”.


“ “ Drive: this appears to be some kind of IAC multiplier just like the table above,


One thing I notice is that both of these tables are VERY similar between the 4.3L AT and the 5.7 AT. These values are also both higher than the values for the 4.3L MT bin. I wonder if the difference here is because automatic vehicles typically idle a little slower RPM than a manual vehicle, and so I think the higher values here are related to that, since the IAC is basically a computer controlled airleak essential to idle.


Idle Speed VS Temp: Manuals like to idle faster than autos. I think this slightly increased idle RPM lends to easier, smoother transitions from stopped and idling at a light, to engaging the clutch and pulling away. You already have to bring the engine up a little bit in RPM anyways before letting the clutch out, in order to leave smoothly. I think for this table, just play around with whatever works best for you. Since I started with a 5.7 -AT $0D bin, I just tried increasing the whole idle speed table in increments of like 50 RPM until I got it to idle the way I like. Full warmed up it's got a nice smooth idle around 750-800 RPM.


CCP: What's that? :P


I still intend to look over and try to understand the parameters in “IDLE FOLLOWER PARAMTER TABLES”


The shift light parameters I don't think are important. Well if you want to have the factory shift light I guess it would be.

[1project2many]

"Closed loop" refers to a system which can self adjust using feedback. Dynamic spark is often part of an idle control strategy which varies timing to maintain steady idle speed. If this is enabled, rpm will be monitored and spark will be constantly varied as rpm rises and falls. Hence, closed loop idle.

[EagleMark]

CCP: What's that? :P

From the EFI dictionary at:
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/gm-ecm-p...ictionary.html


CCP = Charcoal Canister Purge a valve that can be controlled by the ECM/PCM. For
emissions it is used to collect hydrocarbons from raw fuel and vent back to gas
tank so no hydrocarbons are released into atmosphere.

[CDeeZ]

"Closed loop" refers to a system which can self adjust using feedback. Dynamic spark is often part of an idle control strategy which varies timing to maintain steady idle speed. If this is enabled, rpm will be monitored and spark will be constantly varied as rpm rises and falls. Hence, closed loop idle.

"Closed Loop Idle: Here is something interesting, my bin (BJLH 5.7AT) Does NOT have this bit checked, yet looking at my logs, I do in fact go closed loop and from what I can tell it even idles closed loop and stays closed loop once warmed up."

From the EFI dictionary at:
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/gm-ecm-p...ictionary.html


CCP = Charcoal Canister Purge a valve that can be controlled by the ECM/PCM. For
emissions it is used to collect hydrocarbons from raw fuel and vent back to gas
tank so no hydrocarbons are released into atmosphere.

I was joking. I know what CCP is. Don't really know much beyond that as there is no emissions here thankfully, hence why I deleted my EGR.

[Tralam]

Is there any follow up to this? I'm looking at making up a bin for my 5.7 5 speed. Did you stick with the 5.7 auto bin? Make modifications based on the difference spreadsheet? I'm very interested. I'm running with a stock 5.7 auto memcal right now and it runs very nice once it warms up, though obviously needs some tuning.

[belaw]

Not on my end. I was all fired up to get started when I originally posted but I had to put my TBI conversion project on hold. Hopefully I can get back to it this summer.

Brian