97427 Manual Bin Conversion

[EagleMark]

I had good luck with changing the 7.4L $0E to 5.7L and running in a conversion. I've had good luck tuning several of these PCM in $0D, $0E and even the $85. But after looking through the 4.3L Manual bin and comparing it to a 5.7L $0D bin I'm not so sure? There's just a lot of things differant, so do you go with minimum and tune or maximum and tune? Theres a lot differant!

[Six_Shooter]

*cough* $85 is '7060.

[belaw]

I had good luck with changing the 7.4L $0E to 5.7L and running in a conversion. I've had good luck tuning several of these PCM in $0D, $0E and even the $85. But after looking through the 4.3L Manual bin and comparing it to a 5.7L $0D bin I'm not so sure? There's just a lot of things differant, so do you go with minimum and tune or maximum and tune? Theres a lot differant!

Can you elaborate? If I'm reading your message right, you seem to be having second thoughts about your earlier recommendation that I start with a $0D/4.3/manual bin now that you've had a chance to actually review the BJFC bin.

FWIW, I'm looking at a stockish engine with RV cam, headers and Vortec heads, so the availability of the hacks/tips/tricks for $0D you mentioned may not be that much of an advantage for me. I may incorporate electronic fan control from the PCM into my build, but there's already a $0E patch for that. Since this will be my first TBI build keeping things simple is important!

[gregs78cam]

If it were me, I would copy the VE and SA tables from 5.7/Auto into a 7.4/Man bin and go from there. Chances are pretty good that most everything engine wise will be closer to what you need, and everything Trans related will be closer, including the IAC stuff.

[CDeeZ]

If it were me, I would copy the VE and SA tables from 5.7/Auto into a 7.4/Man bin and go from there. Chances are pretty good that most everything engine wise will be closer to what you need, and everything Trans related will be closer, including the IAC stuff.

Wouldn't you also want to copy the biases for spark if you're going to copy the spark tables?? I think the big block bins have a drastically different spark bias than the small block bins...

[gregs78cam]

Well, yea, those as well. OK, all Spark related constants and tables.

[CDeeZ]

Ok good to know. I'm considering giving the $0E a shot now that you hooked me up with that XDF for manipulating fan control easily, I'm just going to try pasting in the VE tables, all spark settings along with my other parameters (EGR disabled, Initial spark adjusted, cylinder volume, injector flow, I think thats all?)

[EagleMark]

*cough* $85 is '7060.

Yes I know, just referring to non C3 types, but it's like half way to 16197427 from 1227747.

Can you elaborate? If I'm reading your message right, you seem to be having second thoughts about your earlier recommendation that I start with a $0D/4.3/manual bin now that you've had a chance to actually review the BJFC bin.

FWIW, I'm looking at a stockish engine with RV cam, headers and Vortec heads, so the availability of the hacks/tips/tricks for $0D you mentioned may not be that much of an advantage for me. I may incorporate electronic fan control from the PCM into my build, but there's already a $0E patch for that. Since this will be my first TBI build keeping things simple is important!

Yes I am really having second thoughts!

There's so many tricks/hacks done for $0D so it's the obvious choice. The unseen issues are IAC logic for manual bins compared to Auto bins, still no bin available for 5.7L Manual in $0D. SO if all the options for $0D are not needed then it's just to easy to use the 7.4L Manual $0E, I wasn't the first to do it and it's always worked.

Greg knows these way better then I so if he says all bias then so be it. I'll stick to my rule of leaving them alone and working on spark table. There's so many things adjusted off these bias if I don't change any then I have nothing to worry about. Also I don't work on one car. If it's 10 degreees off of actual then fine, you can fix it in the XDF to show actual, but then if someone else gets it and does not know it can be disasterous, we've had 2 $6E XDF here that were 20 degrees off because of this! Bottom line is checking timing at timing marks and see where it really is. Dial back timing light is a safety tool so you can see where timing is, not what bin says!

My point on this is Warm Bias and Cold Bias are major players, we should always be working on a warmed up engine so we are down to one. Deal with it! Now you don't have to think how the calibration handles DFCO spark, EGR spark, AE, PE. etc... they will all fall in place. Or if we change one like warm from 10 to 0 like big block to small block so we can paste in a timing table (which will be changed anyway) wow that was easy right? What did it do to DFCO/EGR/COLD/AE/PE spark? To complicated for me! And every calibration/bin is differant!

Then think about spark latency in the calibration, it's not correct in GM bins so timing fluctuates through RPM range compared to what bin/calibration/main spark table says. One GM EST/ICM takes out 3-5 degrees above 3500 RPM, one does not, aftermarket have been found to be 11 degrees off in certain areas, so how much off is the other one from china, this year? I've asked MSD and Accell for the spark latency and that is not tech information available to public?

You've probably heard me say this before but.... "So where is your timing actually set?"

[gregs78cam]

I wouldn't say I know any of this EFI stuff better than you Mark, I am just making educated guesses about this. But it stands to reason if you transplant ALL spark parameters to their CORRECT locations, then it should work. The caveat being that their MAY be some spark related items that are not common to both a $0D.bin and a $0E.bin. sort of like trans items. Again I say MAYBE, as I haven't checked each side by side. But the easy thing to do is just use a 5.7 and a 7.4 with the same mask ID, then you know they will both have the same code running them and the same entries.

[CDeeZ]

Well I tried to make a custom 5.7 maual bin by copying that stuff. And while it did run it didn't run very well. As far as using a manual bin for a manual application: so far I've had the best success with using an auto bin for my manual application... The PCM doesn't seem to be any the wiser for the T56 being in place of the 60e it originally controlled.

I've made all the changes in the $0D bin to reflect the fact that it is now no longer controlling the 60e, and now that I've surmounted the idle issues I was having, I'm going to say that I can't see there is that much appreciable difference between a manual bin and an automatic bin. The IAC logic is supposedly drastically different, yet I have not had the driveability issues these IAC differences should present. Just my thoughts.

[EagleMark]

I wouldn't say I know any of this EFI stuff better than you Mark, I am just making educated guesses about this. But it stands to reason if you transplant ALL spark parameters to their CORRECT locations, then it should work. The caveat being that their MAY be some spark related items that are not common to both a $0D.bin and a $0E.bin. sort of like trans items. Again I say MAYBE, as I haven't checked each side by side. But the easy thing to do is just use a 5.7 and a 7.4 with the same mask ID, then you know they will both have the same code running them and the same entries.

You underestimate your self Greg! I enjoy your company, enjoy talking EFI with you and have learned a lot. You even made me remember how to do math!

Also agree, but as CDeez has said and others have done the 5.7l Auto bin seems to be working, we know there is major differences but they are not showing up yet? I think a Wide Band would show some major in between gears? Maybe no one has noticed pulling away in first yet? Got to be something as I've used Auto in Manual with 1227747 $42 and difference in driveability was huge...

I just can't beleive how many differences there was between 5.7L and 4.3L bins in $0D? I've been wanting to do this for some time. What's with that? I've done the 7.4L to 5.7L in $0E and not to bad... I even built a $42 7.4L 700R4 bin, done some weird stuff that was not that hard and worked well, but this was so far apart I got lost fast...

Did we ever find a 7.4L manual $0D bin?

Wonder if we could buy a 5.7L manual $0D memcal?

[belaw]

Just out of curiosity I used the Compare feature in TunerPro to compile a listing of the difference between manual and auto trans bins in $0D (4.3L) and $0E (7.4L). I excluded some of the minor differences, the obvious stuff (manual transmission set/unset) and the error codes. Here's a rundown of the major areas of difference; one of the things that surprised me is that the two listings aren't more similar.

$0D Auto/Manual Bin Comparison - BDXK vs BJFC (4.3)
Main Spark Table vs MAP vs RPM (Open Throttle)	Only minimal difference in values (typically 1 or 2)
Main Spark Table vs MAP vs RPM (Closed Throttle)	Only minimal difference in values (typically 1)
CTS Spark Advance Compensation vs Vacuum vs Temperature
Spark Advance Derivative Gain
Spark Advance Derivative Term Bias	00 in auto/ varies in manual bin
Max Spark Advance to be Added	50 in auto / 00 in manual bin
Max Spark Advance to be Subtracted	00 in auto/ 50 in manual bin
EGR Spark Correction vs RPM vs Vacuum
Minimum Time Before DFCO
AE Correction Factor vs. Temperature
MAP Difference AE Correction Factor vs. Temperature
IAC % Flow vs Temperative - P/N and Drive
Idle Speed vs Temperature - P/N (A/C on or off)
IAC Throttle Follower Gain vs Temperature
TPS Filtering Period vs MPH
TPS Filtering Coefficient vs MPH
$0E Auto/Manual Bin Comparison - BHDC vs BMHK (7.4L)
AE Correction Factor vs. Temperature	Significant differences between auto and manual
Main Spark Table vs MAP vs RPM (Open Throttle)
Idle Overspeed Spark Multiplier vs. MAP	FF in auto / 80 in manual bin
Maximum Idle Spark Correction	00 in auto / OE in manual bin
Maximum RPM for Derivative Term	FF in auto / 50 in manual bin
Maximum TPS for Derivative RPM Calculation	00 in auto / O4 in manual bin
Maximum MPH for Derivative RPM Calculation	00 in auto / 32 in manual bin
Minimum Temperature for Derivative RPM Calculation	FF in auto / 00 in manual bin
Open Throttle VE vs MAP vs RPM
Minimum DFCO RPM vs Temperature	30 in auto / 38 in manual bin
IAC % Flow vs Temperative - P/N and Drive
IAC Cold Offset Delay vs. Temperature
Idle Speed vs Temperature - P/N (A/C on or off)	Values vary in auto / 00 in manual
Idle Speed vs Temperature - Drive
Idle Purge Compensation	04 in auto / 00 in manual bin
Idle Integral Gain vs RPM Error	Values vary in auto / 00 in manual
Idle Proportional Term vs RPM Error	Values vary in auto / 00 in manual
Idle Derivative Term vs. Transient RPM Ratio
IAC Throttle Follower Gain vs Temperature
TPS Filtering Period vs MPH
TPS Filtering Coefficient vs MPH
AE vs. % Flow Difference
Flow Bias for Added IAC Flow in DFCO	80 in auto / 66 in manual bin
Additional IAC Flow vs RPM for DFCO

[CDeeZ]

Aren't the $0E and $0D code SLIGHTLY different in terms of the addresses for specific tables, bits, constants etc????? If so, you would be getting wrong data by using the compare feature to look at $0D bin with $0E mask or vica-versa.


Mark, I find it interesting that you had noticeable driveability differences between manual vs auto bin on the 7747... When I had my 7747 I don't recall seeing any noticeable difference in driveability other than the idle speed table being a little too low on the automatic based bin, change that and I couldn't tell a difference.

[gregs78cam]

Yes, they do have most things in slightly different locations...you would have to go by title and then possibly double check tables by size.

[belaw]

Aren't the $0E and $0D code SLIGHTLY different in terms of the addresses for specific tables, bits, constants etc????? If so, you would be getting wrong data by using the compare feature to look at $0D bin with $0E mask or vica-versa.

I compared a $0D 4.3 auto bin to a $0D 4.3 manual and then did a separate listing of the differences between an $0E 7.4 auto and a $0E 7.4 auto. My next step is to compare a $OE 5.7 auto trans bin with one for a 7.4 $0E auto bin. The conversation between Mark and Greg further up this page (posts 19-23) really got my attention and the point of the comparisons is to try and isolate the programing differences between a manual and auto transmission bin on the one hand and the different displacement bins on the other.

This would be a lot easier if TunerPro would let me cut and past or even print the table generated by the Difference Tool, but for now I'm having to print screen shots and then re-enter the data in an Excel spreadsheet.