TBI, Tune, Engine Mods, Boost!

Azblazer from CK5. I have some questions for you. I used to wrench for a living before the oil field and specialized in electronics and A/C for Freightliner in phx for 11 years.
I have currently built a 90 jimmy as a back up work truck and toy. I need to make more power if i am going to keep the tbi set up so we did an msd dizzy....wires....tbody spacer....polished tbi with matched injectors. So...i realize the first thing we need to do is get the chip done right which takes a few tries after logging data to tweak things in. I did buy a tbi chips .com chip and it hoovered fuel so we put the stock chip back in. Being the Blazer chalet guy i realize before any chip tuning is done a slight bump up in cam (poss roller) and vortec heads will go a long way to getting the power i need for a brick with 4.88's and 35's to maintain the legal speed limit. I had what one would call a plus 1 cam in the chalet with no other mods and it ran like an ape so i am trying to run down that cam card...hoping it hasn't been lost. I would also like to ditch the problematic 700R4 for a 4L60e....

Next up...Moates has come up with a lot of goodies over the years so i'd like to know if there is an upgraded flash ecm ava these days which would make things alot easier. I never bothered to learn how to tune and will most likely rely on you for that as its a toy and i don't have the time to tinker like i used to pre oil patch days.

I also have a whipple tbi huffer in a box i am not going to be using...i would like to try tbi-superchargers unit as it may be the ticket to for go the cam swap. Any thoughts there?

DW

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Originally Posted by k5nutt

I also have a whipple tbi huffer in a box i am not going to be using...i would like to try tbi-superchargers unit as it may be the ticket to for go the cam swap. Any thoughts there?

DW

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My thoughts are you should not use the Whipple and to save you storage space mail it to me right away! :innocent2:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by k5nutt

Next up...Moates has come up with a lot of goodies over the years so i'd like to know if there is an upgraded flash ecm ava these days which would make things alot easier. I never bothered to learn how to tune and will most likely rely on you for that as its a toy and i don't have the time to tinker like i used to pre oil patch days.


DW

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There's no flash solution for the 1227747 ECM but an easy way to do this I use all the time for remote tuning and guys capable of installing like yourself. The Moates Ostrich is an emulator and can be semi permanent mount to ECM with velcro, it has a ribbon cable to attach to ECM in place on chip. There are switches inside to run 24 or 28 pin chips so no other adapters are needed in the ECM. Then a USB cable to your laptop. This way I can email you bin files to upload. No chips needed. You basically run the chip/bin file from TunerPro RT on your laptop. If you stop emulation the Ostrich runs your truck off last upload so it still works without a laptop. When your all done (won't happen once you get involved) put in the final chip and use the Ostrich on another vehicle.
https://www.moates.net/ostrich-20-th....html?cPath=64

Other then that all you will need is a data logging cable either from Moates or Robert here:
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...uy-ALDL-Cables!

You seem to have all upgrades and gearing in check. Of course a roller cam and Vortec heads are a huge improvement to engine if you go that route. But the TBI heads, slight cam with proper gearing for tires will do the job. Just depends on how much you want to do and when.

If you go the 4L60E then a ECM to PCM swap is in order. Been done many times and most of your EFI system stays in tack, then change ECM to PCM plugs, some wiring and poof! Newer PCM with E trans.
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...out-Directions!
Still can use the Ostrich on this PCM as well with a G1 adapter.

Yes...the Whipple experiment didn't go so well. Whipple tech desk help is not very helpful and a tad bit snooty i would have to say.
Needless to say...said blazer was forced into service without tuning and i am quite sure fell victim to a lean burn failure....
I was thinking about just going with a tbi-superchargers.com unit...easier by far to deal with than the Whipple unit.

Ok.
1) Pm cable maker to purchase cable. (windows 7 friendly?)
2) Order Moates Ostrich 2
3) Buy TunerPro RT
4) Let the head scratching begin...lol.

On the 4L60E...

700's have always been very cable adjustment picky and the slightest oops can kill the tranny. Not a very reliable setup. Although i am thinking since i had to replace the govenor to make it stop forgetting to shift into 3rd...i'd be money ahead to order a Bow Tie overdives unit asap...

I'm guessing ordering said parts and trans next month since the ex is getting 12k outa my rear end on the first....should be the first round and go from there and see how things go....

Ok...TunerPro RT d/l'd and 39 bux paypal'd.
Went to Moates and ordered cable and ostrich.
Just gotta wait on the mail man....


DW

Quote:

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Originally Posted by k5nutt

Ok.
1) Pm cable maker to purchase cable. (windows 7 friendly?)
2) Order Moates Ostrich 2
3) Buy TunerPro RT
4) Let the head scratching begin...lol.



DW

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No head scratching! Only learning. :thumbsup:

Seems you have some cash flow for this project so there would be another device that works well. Wide Band O2 sensor... for many reasons. Main one is to see AFR not going lean under WOT boost! These ECM/PCM we have been talking about have no boost adjustments, so 100 MAP is what you get for all boost. That said they work fine for these small boosts and stock/mild motors. Would be plenty to push the Chalet around without making it a race truck.

Let me know what Wide Band you'd be intresed in and I'll look at the controller and setup. Some are very basic and stuck with 14.7 to 1 reading, others can be programmed for the E10 fuel at 14.1... either way making them read Lambda is so much easier and accurate. After all they are Lambda controllers converted to AFR...

Somewhere beyond stock motor your going to need more fuel! So an adjustable regulator is first step, for the boost changing the intank pump to a TPI or =early model Vortec is a bolt in. Pumps look identical, just have more flow and pressure.

Another improvement is a Boost Retard control for spark timing.

I forgot to mention we installed a heated O2 sensor when all the work was being done as well.
I'll assume thats not what is needed....

I'll rely on your thoughts for the wide band...

I'll assume the TPI (30 psi) pump will be needed if i go with a cam / head / supercharger upgrade...i think what i have done so far is mild.
I have an adjustable psi regulator somewhere. Although i would like to look into a vacum operated unit as that would be more precise and help
in the mpg dept. I'm not sure but i thought older big block units ran some sort of vacum regulator.

As far as the 4L60E/4L80E equasion...if i remember right again...some where in a box at my buddies house is a harness and ecm from a 350/4L80E
combo from a 91 2wd 3/4 ton burb. The ecm was different and reminded me of the TPI mem cals...

Boost retard timing control equals boost only?
I have also ran MSD 6A boxes with mild success in the past. But...they always set a 43 i think while in flight (yellow light)....and make a hot restart a pita...so i am thinking about not going with a 6A box.

DW

The heated O2 helps stay in Closed Loop, especially with un-coated headers. Although if the tune is spot on you can't tell the difference when the Narrow Band/Stock O2 sensor cools off and goes Open Loop. Wide Band O2 is completely different and measures AFR/Lambda. This would have saved your engine that melted from being lean, it's the only way to know! Your spending money on lots of stuff... this is good stuff to own with what your doing!

What you have done now should be fine on stock pressure. Using the adjustable is still a good idea to get 13 PSI. More mods? More Pressure! Cam, Vortec Heads and a charger = bigger injectors = easier then then tuning the high pressures and easier then a vacuum regulated. TBI injectors are not in vacuum like MPFI injectors where the vacuum reference works well. Keep your eyes open for some BB 74 or 80 lb/hr for future reference.

The PCM from 1991 4L80E is a 1619740 $85, we can use that when you get to tranny change.

I don't like MSD boxs and there's no need for them with these new TBI systems. The spark is fine. Build a motor that should not be on the street and we'll talk?

The boost retard is just that, retards spark advance timing (which is needed under boost) based on manifold vacuum/pressure. What these kits do in the form they come is pull enough timing that it is not needed. But you don't have power/economy etc... when there is no boost because they already took timing out? They only do about 6PSI boost max and it seems to always have some down to idle. I lost the Whipple chip/bin I had but IIRC most of the extra fuel was added with PE = Power Enrichment tables do to PE MAP enable settings. Spark was near stock and all PE spark and adders removed. The 2 I've worked on here hands on were both done with stock injectors and fuel pressure and both had melted pistons? You can't add 100 HP without adding 100HP worth of fuel.

I great option for boost controlled ECM is Dynamic EBL! I didn't recommend it at first because it does not do E trans. Seemed like E trans was a for sure and boost was not? To run it and E trans you need it/ECM and a second PCM. There are GM PCM that were designed for boost. The small amount of boost from these chargers can be done without the extremes of boost control ECM/PCM...

We're kind of all over the place here and I hope I'm giving you good info? But maybe we better slow down and see what we have? What we are doing? What all plans are? Time frame?

Well...for now i guess i need to receive the gear from Moates and get the wide band O2 on the way. Which wide band set up do i need and where do i find it?
I'll dig up the adjustable regulator parts in my garage when i get a day off...if i can't find it i will order that as well.
After those basic's are in place i think its best to focus on tuning 101 before i worry about 4L6/80E vrs. boost issue. Baby steps right?
I guess i should also peruse ebay for a 90 and 91 RV wiring diagram books to see the difference between 700R4 vrs 4L80E ecm wiring entails....
At some point i will have to entertain the thought of what line to cross not cross in money and time vrs a LS swap. I think dealing with what i have is alot
easier to deal with at this point.
Info is good. I'll start with the basics and start with tuning and see where it takes us and what results we get.

DW

I'd say your on the right track. Use what you have and the new tuning equipment your getting. Add the WB as a toy as you go. If your seriously thinking of an LS swap? Pass on the boost and start looking for a good motor, trans, harness PCM for the conversion.

WB is a must with boost. For now it will only help with WOT tuning and even that is OK/safe without..

The LS was an idea due to the lack of Tuning knowledge and not being able to find the right person to help clear the fog with that entire issue. And the realization that in 1987 i was in west germany sitting in a class on fuel systems put on by central texas college and the teacher stated that as of said year (87) GM would no longer produce a carburator which makes tbi ancient. The newer systems have a far better baud rate and the ability to think and change things on their own...ie: auto tune. But....i don't have the time to do the swap. So i am willing to throw some money at the Jimmy to get as best as we can with what we have to work with.

I am really thinking that 91 V20 Burb ecm might be the way to go in the future as it was 350/4l80E. I can't see the wiring between a 90 350/700R being that far apart....your thoughts?

DW

Sorry I must have missed this post?

TBI may be ancient as far as EFI is concerned, but it's still viable. Newer systems are faster but the old system still changes things on it's own and they don't auto tune, they all make adjustments from feedback and can only do so much, they can't preform miracles.. I have a truck 10 years newer that does not get any better mileage, has more power but it's a different motor! Ten years newer same scenario... HP takes fuel, weight takes HP, nothing has changed except newer designed engines. EFI is faster and more complex... I don't have any problems tuning a built TBI engine, with the old ECM so it drives like a factory truck?

Or are you talking about the new aftermarket EFI systems? Ha! Wait till you try that one... there's nothing simple about Auto Tune except the way it's advertised!

Just depends on what you really want to do with your toy? I think this is your biggest concern? All the hours your working and only have a couple days off a month. Seems like you've been through hell already and still have no toy to drive when you get home?

The 91 EFI system for 4L80E is and easy change over to your 87. Biggest hurdle is PCM plug change, add tranny wiring, remove ESC for the knock and wire it to PCM as it handles knock now. Most of your present TBI EFI system is still used. This is not a big deal. Seriously if I had the truck and parts it's a half days work. You've never done it but are capable so... maybe a day? Changing the tranny and lines, cooler is way more work!

Do you really need a 4L80E? Do you really need a lot more HP TBI motor? If so, or if it's a want to your project they go good together without a HUGE project of LS transplant! Just because others guys do it and it can be done does not mean it has to?

HTH! :rockon:

The 90 Jimmy is also a back up work truck so it has to be bullet proof as it can be and since i had a 700R4 go out on me in Shreveport LA i am rather gun shy. However i am willing to try a built bow tie overdrives unit since the miles on my 90 are unknown.

More power is needed to maintain 75/80 mph on the highway with a chalet or 4 wd poptop camper. Stock tbi motor wasn't getting it. So i think i'll go with a cam swap. Basically a plus 1 from stock as the one in my old chalet worked wonders. My web site i haven't done much with in years (blazerchalet.com).

Is the motor any good in blazer? If not get a Vortec head crate motor and I'll help pick one with cam, TBI intake, headers with dual exhaust and poof! 120 more HP and torque..

700R4 do wear out like all other auto trannys but 100k miles towing, hauling weight or pushing brick walls at 80 MPH can be done. My 90 Suburban has done all this and has 150k on it with good maintenance and factory tow package cooler, also has factory oil cooler and 3:73 gears, stock tires. Emtpy I cruise at 75 MPH but only 60 with a trailer, you can feel the brick wall parachute effect real bad at 65.

A 90 Blazer is about as aerodynamic as a brick without a chalet or poptop. 70 MPH is so much easier then 80. Gearing to tires is a main concern. I have no idea what a plus 1 cam is? Like an RV cam? Forget it, you can do so much better.

Actually the Jimmy's motor is in rather good shape. I think it was changed out before i got it but i haven't heard from the old owner in quite some time as he was following my progress on transforming her to my taste. She sat in a garage in Leadville Co. most of her life. Brought out for camping/fishing trips mostly.

Once i get the extra 9k to my ex on the first i owe for back alimony and the 3k monthly she gets i'll be able to save money to start into this project. However there is going to be a 30 day delay as i am getting set out on a 17k ft. Horizontal gamma logging job which i expect to take quite some time to complete. I can only bill them when the job is done or we hit 30 days....grrr. Such is life.

I'll do a bowtie overdrives stage 2 700R4 first and get my rock sliders along with a custom rear bumper on the way. Hopefully by then i can get a hold of my friend who has the cam card for the chalet so i can see what cam we used in her. If i do that small bump up in cam specs from factory specs i could add factory vortec heads with a gm intake to match the diff head angle for the intake and go from there. Should be a pretty good package. A long block from GM anymore price wise is getting retarded from years back. I think its 1700-1800 for a 290 hp tbi engine at the low end of the spectrum as a 1/2 ton 2 bolt block....

I'll have to look as i can't remeber if the Jimmy has the factory oil cooler option. My 79 K5 did which is basically the exact same set up Except...for the length of the brackets to the cooler it self....so i do plan to add that if it doesn't have one. And i have a few cooler fans somewhere they used in the 90-91 3/4 ton burbs with big blocks for tranny coolers....getting harder to find those. Not something i need but an interesting piece gm made.

Jimmy has 4.88's with air lockers and 35" tires.

So a vortec crate from uncle gm is a better route? I would assume that block is pre drilled for the roller lifter spider? And of course the value of the vortec heads which require the GM aftermarket tbi intake. We shall see how money pans out once the dust settles from getting the ex off my back and getting thru this next job and see which way is the best route. 120 hp is a pretty good number....of course we loose approx 20 percent between the trans and the right turn at the rear diff....lol. Getting excited to make a solid runner out of her and learning this voodoo they call tuning!

I appreciate all the time you have taken to answer my questions!

DW

I suggested a Vortec crate engine because I thought your engine was toast. Since yours is good, then no.... but you don't seem to have a budget so yes! New 383 340 HP 400 ft lbs tourque for about $5000. :popcorn:

Or just a cam in your engine with some more fuel pressure?

4:88s and 35 is a great combo.

The engine in the retired 79 K5 is toast due to whipple. The 90 Jimmy is in really good shape. I'd like to step up slightly in cam - install adj regulater....and let you handle the chip tweaking for right now....in the future... :0) i'll probably play a bit!

Prior to Whipple destruction i had to drive the 79 with 4.88's n 35's from Gilbert Az. to LA-PA-WV-TX-AR for work....combo worked well....coulda used more ponies but we got the job done!

DW