What efi system is best for a 4.5 pfi cadillac engine7

Hello.hope om posting on the right place. I have a fwd cadillac 4.5 pfi engine trying to run it on a 90 c1500 305 ecm.7747.obviously it is not the same and I'm having timing issues. I've read the timing table of curved ate completely different. I've done a few logs with tprt and see a few things off.my question is do I get the burner and chips and do the socket mod to attempt a correction or am I farther ahead to swap to 7427 ecm and run pfi as that's what the engine was designed for. Currently running the tbi set up in a s15 jimmy using the stock 2.8 harness.any advice would be great.may not have given all the details but I hope enough to help choose a direction.thanks

I like the 16197427 for OBD1 MPFI. The 16197427 is well supported, affordable, and easily converted to MPFI. I would use the Ostrich 2.0 and Moates.net G1 Adapter.

dave w

Thanks for the fast reply.I do have a 7427 bjxk from a 95 c1500 that had 305ci and auto .I took ecm and connectors and vss buffer from that truck.I read about jumping the 2 sense resistors to enable batch fire for 8 injectors.I did this mod to the ecm.I have ford crown vic injectors in it and ready.but I don't yet have tuning ability so I didn't swap pcm yet.still running tbi.I also have to change f/p for the swap.if I did the swap with out tune capabilities I know it won't see a transmission plugged in so it will have trouble codes. Unsure if that puts into limp or prevent closed loop.not new to it all but I still have a lot of learning for the tuning stuff and how to use the programs.if anyone on here is willing to burn a chip and ship I could provide what info I do have for both set ups.stock chip or 28 pin.I live in canada and I don't have much in the way of support here aa most places have no info or product for the older ecm.thanks

Attached is 16197427 MPFI Information.

Maybe converting the 2.8 TBI system to the 16197427 TBI is a GOOD first step?

My post for tuning the 16197427 with a Wide Band Oxygen Sensor (WBO2): http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...g)-Spreadsheet
Post 25 has the latest spreadsheet. Post 26 has some useful screen shot for "Tuning" using WBO2 data.

It's always challenging using parts from vehicles that are +20 years old in a project.

dave w

Thank you Dave w.the tbi I'm using is from the 305 engine.I put 4.3 I Hector in it as the 305 was so rich u could see and smell it out the exhaust. The harness and est and knock sensor is the only 2.8 part left on the truck.all else is from 305.I originally tried a distributor that I made from a cadillac bottom and small cap chevy top but the rotor phase was not right.after multiple tries I got it so it was firing at the right time with a hole drilled in a cap to see.but still unsatisfied I swapped to the oe cadillac large cap hei.but from what I understand the ecm wants zero and the cadillac calls for 10.I have it set now at 14 and it runs well enough to get me to work but not that great.I swapped a heated o2 in as well.couple questions. I have not been able to find the bin for my 7747 asdm or for the 7427 bjxk.is that because of us and canadian difference or are these odd balls.I just used a different bin to log.on the 7427 will it run the engine fine with no Tran plugged in or is changing settinga and burning to a chip required the ecm to not be in a limp or open loop mode.thanks for the helpful info.sorry about any spelling errors.all I have been using is my phone to post.

Anyone try removing the stock 28 pin chip from memcal and solder in a socket.will that work as an alternative to the g1 adapter.Attachment 12316

Hello Dave w.can u please tell me if it's ok to put a chip socket in place of the chip on a stock memcal to change chips that way as apposed to buying a g1 adapter. Will it function just the same. Here is a pic.you seem to be a very knowledgeable person and your advice is very much appreciated.someone that knows their ������ sure makes things easier for the inexperienced to understand and accomplish. Attachment 12317Attachment 12318

If you have excellent soldering skills and equipment, installing a 28 Pin DIP Socket into the Memcal is a low cost alternative to the Moates.net G1 adapter.

dave w

Awesome.thanks.that was a memcal from another ecm I had for a quad 4. Looks same as 7427 so that was my practice run.that will shave a bit off of getting into tuning for me.I priced a gqx4 and 2 sst27sf512 chips.about $170. Canadian delivered so that's not too bad.would have gotten burn 2 but it's a bit more money so as u can see I like to make it cheap.thanks for the confirmation.have a great day

I've done that before but I didn't have a fine tip soldering iron so needless to say, mine didn't come out as pretty as the one you have in the pics. Just to pretty it up, I think I'll pull out the dremel an clean up the melted plastic!!!:rolleye: BTW...I also used a zif.

I melted a few spots too but it's hard to see.believe it or not that's done with a butane torch similar to what a chef uses only it has a few tips.it's very fast and does pretty clean job for wires and such and shrink tube.I made my cable for data log with it and the thing works great even on tiny pins like the transistors and resistors needed for that.it was under 40 bucks.good to know others do these things too .

I once read a story where someone set out to cut a piece of wood. As the story goes ... the wood was measured with a micrometer, then marked with a piece of chalk and finally cut with a chain saw. The above method of soldering reminded me of the this story.

Electrons are extremely "LAZY" things to control ... they will always flow in the path of least resistance from negative to positive.

Maybe it's my luck, I seen to need a more costly method of soldering to keep those "LAZY" electrons happy for years and years / miles and miles of trouble free service.

I truly admire those who can make a perfectly level wood table with a micrometer, chalk, and chain saw.:rockon:

dave w

Hey thanks.that means a lot to me.I've done about 6 conversions on odd ball vehicles with somewhat odd drive train.I've about ways hated the wiring part.but this last one refined a lot of skills for me including soldering and following wires and wire diagrams and relays and circuits etc.partly because I made a few mods and because of my mistakes.but I feel like I have most of this system in my head by memory.I'm hoping I'll be able to learn the tuning in the same manner.understanding the wiring makes diagnosis much easier less frustrating and not scary at all to try and check any circuit.I would hope at some point others could use info I have learned because that's how I've learned a lot.thanks to this and many other info sharing enthusiasts. So thanks:happy::thumbsup:

Ordered:
Gq-4x-v4 $114.28
Sst27sf512(x2) $10.04
Shipping $25.40
Total to my door $149.72
That's not too bad for getting started.that's from mcu mall canada. Gq electronics is the American store and prices are pretty close.my canadian store has a 2 week wait for the chips as they are back ordered.I see they are not on back order in the American store.in case anyone uses them.

Re:mpfi information zip
How do I use these.through tunerpro?is this code to copy to ?sorry.I'm still too green to know.I suck at this kind of stuff on a computer because I've never used any of it b4.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by S.O.B.B.

Re:mpfi information zip
How do I use these.through tunerpro?is this code to copy to ?sorry.I'm still too green to know.I suck at this kind of stuff on a computer because I've never used any of it b4.

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Ok, first things first ... please post the .bin file you have modified for MPFI.

dave w

I don't have one of those.I won't be getting a wb o2 any time soon but the info is good for future reference. The 7427 (bjxk)I have is stock accept the jumpers soldered onto sense resistors.I'm unclear on what would need to be done to enable mpfi programming wise.and disabling transmission control.also still pretty unclear on tunerpro of what's what and in the parameter tree what things u could or would adjust and what u shouldn't touch.scalers.flags.tables.I don't know how to use or what an Excell spread sheet is.I am currently running 7747 asdm and have a few logs.I haven't figured out how to post one yet.sorry.I got alot to learn don't I. I've just been looking at the tunerpro and reading the tutorials from sixshooter. I hadn't planned to swap to 7427 till I understand how to use the features in tunerpro.I'll keep reading

https://ls1tech.com/forums/lt1-lt4-m...-tutorial.html

dave w

Thanks for the clarification. I think I had most of that figured.it was the flags scalers and tables I was confused with. I think I can play and explore a little more now.as I mentioned I have a few data logs .but I was not able to find the bin for my ecm (7747 asdm) so I just used a few that were close so I could get some data to see how it's running.I thought I could get data logs and use that info to make some changes for the 7427 that's gonna be swapped in.make changes to that bin and burn that to a chip once I get my hardware. I'd like to post the logs I have to see if you can give me some clues as to what to change.would it be a good idea to try to get the cadillac 2240 ecm bin and copy things like the timing and fuel to the bin I plan to use on the 7427.thanks.btw the laptop I'm using for this does not have Web Access so I just copy what I need to memory stick and load to laptop.

data logs from 4.5L cadillac engine if this cant be viewed please advise how do i upload my data logs.
Attachment 12351

Anyone know a source for a 2240 ecm (attl) bin file for cadillac. Not having any luck searching.

Playing around on tunerpro with amtu-$42-5.0-auto (1)bin*.
In the scalers the minimum rpm to consider running says 525rpm or something close to that.then in tables the desired idle speed at 3 of the Temps the rpm says 500.is this incorrect. Should the desired idle speed always be above the minimum rpm to consider running.

Hello Dave w.I was finally able to get to see the files u sent for mpfi 7427.I have loaded a bin bjya I think.then loaded the od xdf.I was going threw it changing things I know to change.initial timing to 10° and a few of the things it said to set for pfi.my question is the main spark.I looked at the main spark for ns1 xdf.I dont know if that us even a 4.5L bin or if its n*.quite different. Do I cut and paste the spark table or copy the parameternal and delete the one that was there.I'm just trying to make the changes I think are needed and figure out how to post my data logs and xdf so u or someone could tell me if I'm doing the right things or if I'm not.I'm unsure if I have the correct info for 4.5 settings but I am more so wanting to know.is that the way one would for example swap a timing table and initial to run a different engine on an ecm mentioned for truck.thanks

Quote:

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Originally Posted by S.O.B.B.

Hello Dave w.I was finally able to get to see the files u sent for mpfi 7427.I have loaded a bin bjya I think.then loaded the od xdf.I was going threw it changing things I know to change.initial timing to 10° and a few of the things it said to set for pfi.my question is the main spark.I looked at the main spark for ns1 xdf.I dont know if that us even a 4.5L bin or if its n*.quite different. Do I cut and paste the spark table or copy the parameternal and delete the one that was there.I'm just trying to make the changes I think are needed and figure out how to post my data logs and xdf so u or someone could tell me if I'm doing the right things or if I'm not.I'm unsure if I have the correct info for 4.5 settings but I am more so wanting to know.is that the way one would for example swap a timing table and initial to run a different engine on an ecm mentioned for truck.thanks

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It's going to be VERY CHALLENGING setting up the $OD MPFI .bin for the 4.5 MPFI conversion. You will need to interpolate the 4.5 parameters into the $OD MPFI modified .bin file. Take is slow, understand EXACTLY what your changing. You will need to CLOSELY RECONCILE the Injector Parameter, Timing Parameters, and Fuel Parameters. The only easy parameters to swap into the $OD 4.5 liter MPFI .bin file will be displacement and injector flow.

dave w

Thanks Dave w.The 4.5 engine is stock accept headers.so I'm hoping to be able to cut and paste the tables I need from one bin to the other or the entire parameter and delete the original and make only miner adjustments.I know I will need to disable a few things.egr.trans control.smog pump.when disabling egr I understand just one thing like commanded on temp set where the temp would never be will make it never come on.is the trans control the same or do I need to unflag all trans related flags and set all trans related tables to a suited value so trans control is disabled. I'm currently running manual transmission but intend to swap back to 700 r4. Won't ever have e trans.thanks I did correct cylinder volume to the 4.5 and injector flow I put at 21lbs/hr in pfi.initial timing to 10°.I saved the bin like that till I get time to figure out the timing table and a few others I'm unsure of.I'll have to make a list to pick your brain.thanks again for the help

Using a 7427 bjyb bin in flags if I flag manual transmission does that alone disabled the transmission controls or do other items need to be changed as well.

To view parameter comments and tips, use the F10 key after opening a parameter. For example open Manual Transmission and press the F10 key.

See example below.

After setting manual transmission and related parameters from the "Comments", I would also disable the automatic transmission codes.

dave w

Thanks Dave w.The Gq programmer just arrived. I'm a little displeased. The box content was a programmer a cd and a chip with the legs folded over. No cables.Grr. I have looked at the description and it says cables are included. So it's useless to me till I get cables. That bites.a question I have is since I can't seem to find the proper bin for either ecm I have would I just read the chip on the programmer and save it to get the bin.I ask because I plan to do the socket mod to the 7747 I'm running so I can correct a couple things.it's too cold for long hours outside so the 427 swap is waiting.I reread a few things over and over and I think I have a better understanding of the order of the steps now and what to not pla with . Guess I'll see when I get cables.b4 i finished writing this mcu mall emailed to say cables were being sent today. So that's good.thanks.

Hello Dave w.I am still waiting on cables.so I made a g2 chip adapter for the 7747 for now.for my 427 swap I can't find a bin for the engine I have.I can get a whole 2240 ecm for around 50 bucks.the plan for that was just to read and save the bin so I can copy a bunch of things to the 427pfi bin u sent me.I have an xdf but no bin.does that sound like something that will work.I'm unsure of another route to take.or if there is a better way to do it. Thanks

Attachment 12372

Attachment 12378
Tunerpro rt data log from 7747 asdm on 4.5 engine with tbi and 4.3 injectors. Can someone please tell me if the xdl posted here is the correct format for someone on here to view it.thanks

Hello Dave w.got the cable for my programmer.did the socket mod on the 7747.read the bin from stock chip.made a couple small adjustments.initial timing to 10°.egr off.bpw to 145.burned that to sst27sf512 with the offset listed on moates site because I could not find specific info on that chip for gq4x.anyway it started first shot and ran.it seemed like the miss was worse.I put the 5.0 I injectors in and burned chip again bpw 131.worse.I tried 2 other burns.both were minor to the bpw.the one I drove to work in bpw set at 149.it feels better mid throttle now but not as strong low end as b4.blm at idle is 128.driving in 5th at 2200 rpm its 160-170.so I have lots to learn.but this is all new to me and I'm loving it.so cool to be able to do.wishing I got into this year's ago.thanks to all the info on this site it's made learning a lot easier.now I have to look at my logs and see the changes I made after each burn.try to figure what is needed.

Dave w or anyone else that knows can u please point me the right direction. I'm using the large cap hei distributor.the system I'm using used a small cap distributor. I see 2 different spark latency tables for the large cap and both are different than what's on the factory chip that was small cap.which table should I be using.any help is appreciated

Some good info over at 3rdgen on spark latency for large cap HEI.

Bob

Thanks Bob. I was reading on tgo about it last night.I kind of understand what it is but I don't see what reason for which setting is used on which distributor. I copied the whole latency table and burned that this morning. Could barely drive up the road.but like a dumb ass I changed more than one thing.I also copied the timing table for a corvette that I got off superchevy.so I'm gonna try the other latency table that I didn't try.that will be the 3rd table.I'm gonna try to get me a 2240 caddy ecm and read the chip so I can copy a few tables from that because I don't think any of the swirl port head setting work on this engine.it's more like a pre efi sbc engine.I do have most of the stock 4.5 engine specs so I can calculate things but my lack of experience here is making it a little difficult. I had originally started and ran this with a small cap grafted onto the top of the oe caddy distributor. But the phase was off.so I made it adjustable and put a hole in a old cap to get it set right.it had pretty much the same issue.so I switched to the caddy distributor and icm.it's different but feels like the small cap did when the phase was off.with the large cap I have no way to cut a hole to see where it's firing. Leaves me guessing till I get the read from a caddy chip.I'll keep trying.thanks

I was just looking at some logs.I just noticed on the list view it says prom error.I get no check engine light.no codes.light does work. I'm using gq4x and I put chip offset start address at 00F000.can anyone tell me if that offset is correct when writing to a sst27sf512 chip for use where a 2732a chip was.thanks

Ok got some better results this last try for my drive to work.still says error beside prom but unsure of why.I played more with timing table.bpw at 148 the oe setting.ve table a bit.and this pic is the spark latency corretion I put in.Attachment 12381I need to do more timing table work for lower rpm range.ad lots.blms are around 120 to 140 when on the gas but at cruise at 55mph blm at 160 plus.I notice my iac is 25 or so hot idle.145 key on engine off.but driving the number is around 80 until I take my foot off.I'm guessing that's letting lots of extra air in when unneeded and giving the lean condition.it's almost as though as tps and rpm rise so does iac. Is that setting of iac or faulty sign.anyone?Attachment 12382Attachment 12383Attachment 12384

The attached $42 .xdl files are from reasonably good running engines.

dave w

Thanks for the files Dave w.will try to get a look today.last night I downloaded 6870 1F (85 tpi) bin mostly because it's s large cap distributor. But the sa table uses load instead of map and I'm unsure of load numbers or if they compare to map numbers or if that just isn't something I can do. Looked at lots of other timing graphs and even the original from the 7747 asdm.I may try to put the large cap latency into that and start from there.not sure yet.after I get to see the files I'll go from there. Thanks

Hello Dave w.I have a few questions I'm sure u'd be able to help with.after lots of playing with different timing tables Im still not quite running right but by far the best yet.I'm using a large cap hei from an 89 4.5 on the 90 4.5 engine.I also changed the latency to the higher numbered set up and that really woke it up.my egr and air is disabled.on Temps maxed.the main spark advance bias.should I zero this so it's not taking 9.84° away.the initial is set at 10.2° and at balancer I'm at about 15 to 16° to get it to run decent.when I Rev it and watch the timing light it sure does not seem to get much more than about 28 to 30 °.my timing table has lots of cells over 40 so I'm unsure of how to correct this.the old latency numbers I had in were from I beleive a camaro.with that I needed to run around 20° on the balancer to run better.it's the most responsive and has good pull but lower rpms and high map it seems like it's missing timing.do most timing tables taper off lower after 50 to 60 kpa map.I have not had the chance to log the current set up as it's been too cold.is there an equasion to convert lv8 load numbers into kpa map numbers. thanks