V6 to V8 swap, TBIChips.com Harris Memcal compatabilty?

Here’s my situation.
2yrs ago I swapped out a 4.3L V6, and put in a 5.7L stock L31 motor into my 94 Chevy C1500 pickup, which has a MT8 manual trans.
PCM #16197427. Original Memcal Delco 7466 BJFC.

Bought a “so called” Custom Chip Kit (Chip, Fuel pump, 18 psi regulator spring) from TBI Harris. The memcal supplied is Delco 5873 BHRB. On the side the #68767 94133 1

Pickup has run OK since swap, but that is about it.

Built the Uber-easy ADLD cable and started to datalog about a month ago. I then decided to install an Ostrich 2.0 to try and learn to tune this myself.

The first thing I found wrong with the TBI Harris Chip bin was the Injector Flow in constants was wrong. Changed that and BLM’s improved dramatically. That made me wonder what else may be wrong in the Harris Bin I am tuning from. I posted this thread at the time.
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?2729-New-to-tuning-Concered-about-my-current-bin-file&p=33978#post33978,
EagleMark asked about the Memcal that was supplied, which made me start looking into Knock Module, and Knock Sensor information. I ran across this thread
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...5-all-the-time
which in post #11 EagleMark gave a description about proper knock sensors for PCM, vs ECM’s. I then realized I had installed the wrong knock sensor for my PCM. Used a 100k (which is used in a 94 Chevy 5.7, manual trans application), not the 4k (needed to use with the 16197427 PCM my PU came with). I was always a little concerned about the knock sensor functioning properly. I had tried the hammer test, but never could get anything noticeable to happen? Checked voltage, and ohms for knock sensor circuit, all was good so I thought.

Here’s the kicker guys, I have never had a Knock sensor error code, so again thought everything must be ok. Digging into the bin, I found that the TBI Harris way of doing things is to uncheck the Code 43 Knock Sensor Circuit Failure flag. As soon as I checked it, there was the Code 43 error. Yep no problems here, I have just been driving around for 2 yrs with a non functioning knock retard on a brand new long block. Thank god I don’t have a heavy foot.

This finally brings to my big question, I’ve already ordered a Standard Motor Products KS6 Knock Sensor (4k), but even with this installed, will I ever have a properly functioning knock sensor with this Memcal? I took the cover off the Memcal, and there has been no mods done to it.

Any insight, and information would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

unless they removed the knock filter as well, then i would say it will be functional again.

generally, what i have found is that the C3 ECMs used a 100K sensor, the P4 with an external knock filter(7165) i think are also 100K, P4 are all 4K, P6/66 are all 4K(possible exception for the dual knock sensor applications?), then OBD2 went back to 100K.

IF, emphasis, i'm remembering correctly.



i would take a look at your knock attack/restore tables as well, they might have thrown those way out of whack too.

i don't think this is the first time a Harris complaint has come across the radar either.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Woods

This finally brings to my big question, I’ve already ordered a Standard Motor Products KS6 Knock Sensor (4k), but even with this installed, will I ever have a properly functioning knock sensor with this Memcal? I took the cover off the Memcal, and there has been no mods done to it.

Any insight, and information would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

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No! This is why. You were supplied a memcal BHRB which is for a 4.3L Manual trans and 16196395 PCM which runs a $0E mask. Now the mecal itself would work in a 16197427 PCM which normally runs mask ID $0D, but sometimes $0E. The chip has been erased and reprogrammed Custom to what you need, so we will leave that part out. The reason it will never work properly is the Knock Module/filter is part of the memcal and has to match the engine and the knock sensor.

The other issue in looking up knock sensors for manual transmission of this era is the book usually shows the knock sensor for a totally differant ECM, not the PCM you have. So there may be an issue there. I forget if the 16197427 needs the 100k or 4k sensor? Someone please clearify?

Then there's the Limp Home/Netres chip inside the Memcal. It will run the vehicle in catastrophic failure. Your's is a V6 and your engine is a V8... :rolleye:

That's a pretty crappy way to sell a Custom Chip? Really, no way for Knock Sensor circuit to be funtional and then turn off the error code so even a Tech can't find the issue? :mad1:

oh, wow..... i didn't look beyond the surface for problems.... running a 4.3 MEMCAL would be fine for knock filtering(i would think, they're both 4" bores), but the limp-home stuff is totally off. even if doing a resistor mod to have the CYLSEL logic be correct(which it doesn't sound like that was done either, so that DTC is probably disabled as well), it still isn't as good as it should be.

alldata isn't showing a resistance for "ECM", but "PCM" is 3.9K. i assume ECM would be a 7747(or similar) for the manual trans and PCM for the 4L60/80 trucks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RobertISaar

alldata isn't showing a resistance for "ECM", but "PCM" is 3.9K. i assume ECM would be a 7747(or similar) for the manual trans and PCM for the 4L60/80 trucks.

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From what I understand the 16197427 PCM was only used in V8 auto trans applications, and V6 auto and Manual trans apps.

Right now I am still trying to get over the ARRGGHHH stage, and digest the information I have found and what was posted in the replies above. Sorting out what my options are and what would be the best direction to take to move forward. I plan on keeping this PU for some time, so getting it right is imperative.

Option #4 is looking the best at this time, go to town and have a few Beers with friends. This old farm boy did not need this frustration 1 month into taking a self taught EFI tuning course (meaning search the net and try to process info found into something useful).

Thanks guys

'7427 , '6395 , '7060 , 8625 etc... All need the 3.9K ohm knock sensor .

Standard # KS6 , NAPA Echlin # DKS208 , Wells # SU-169 . Those are all 3.9K ohm Knock sensors .

HTH

TOM

To be serious here, I figure my options are.

#1 Keep the current memcal and install the 4k knock sensor. Then hope the knock sensor circuit is working and move on with a half assed setup and keep tuning.

#2 Seek out a proper memcal to use with my application, and do this right. If that is the route, I’m going to need lots of help and advise here.

#3 Wire in an external ESC, repin to new connection plugs, and fork out the $ and install an EBL Flash unit. Should be able to recover some $ by selling my current 16197427 PCM with the Ostrich 2.0 already installed, I would think?

If anyone has opinions, please feel free to share.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Woods

To be serious here, I figure my options are.

#1 Keep the current memcal and install the 4k knock sensor. Then hope the knock sensor circuit is working and move on with a half ass original bin and keep tuning.

#2 Seek out a proper memcal to use with my application. If that is the route, I’m going to need lots of help and advise here.

#3 Wire in an external ESC, repin to new connection plugs, and fork out the $ and install an EBL Flash unit. Should be able to recover some $ by selling my current 16197427 PCM with the Ostrich 2.0 already installed, I would think?

If anyone has opinions, please feel free to share.

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I would simply keep the '7427 you already have.

Have you tried a 3.9K ohm Knock sensor with your current setup ?

I would purchase a new 3.9K ohm sensor , set the flag for KS error and go from there , my guess is unless the knock filter in the memcal was tampered with it will solve your problems.

IIRC , the original 4.3 used dual Knock sensors , two sensors totalling to the 3.9K ohms required by the P4 PCM. I believe the single 3.9K ohm sensors listed above will replace the dual sensors . Don't quote me on that , it has been a while since I messed with a 4.3 setup.

TOM

GM states 8.2K each for the dual sensor 4.3.

I thought the 2 tied to same wire? Hmmmm... ?

the diagram i'm seeing shows them exactly as such.

http://i.imgur.com/sIDnkGj.png

measuring them without the wire hooked up to them(either in-block or on a bench/etc), should see about 8.2K on each of them. when both are connected, combined parallel resistance should measure around 4.1K.

So they are, once again, a differant knock sensor?

There's also this in the $OD thread:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 1project2many

Dual vs single knock sensors:

V8 apps use single sensor. 4.3 V6 uses dual sensors wired in parallel. Code 43 will set if voltage on KS line is incorrect. Dual sensors can be used on V8 or single on V6 by changing max voltage parameter to set code 43.

Single Sensor
; ERROR 43
; KNOCK SYSTEM FAIL
;---------------------
L4E6A: FCB $A0 160 ; 16 SEC'S. HI VOLTS CK PERIOD
L4E6B FCB $E6 230 ; 4.5 VDC A/D UPPER VOLTS LMT
L4E6C FCB $14 20 ; 0.390 VDC A/D LOWER VOLT LMT

Dual sensors:

L4E6A: FCB $A0 160 ; 16 SEC'S. HI VOLTS CK PERIOD
L4E6B FCB $A2 162 ; 3.17 VDC A/D UPPER VOLTS LMT
L4E6C FCB $14 20 ; 0.390 VDC A/D LOWER VOLT LMT

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Thanks guys, I did not mean this to be a thread about which sensor fits which application. My PCM requires a 3.9 knock sensor, did the research, got it. That is not the issue. Will my current memcal be the best way to proceed is my question?

To answer you question Mark , yes the 4.3 takes , yet again, another sensor(s) part # , FWIW it is NAPA Echlin DKS210 for the left head and DKS220 for the right, DKS210 is 1/4" NPT whereas the DKS220 is 3/8-16 thread, they are both 8.2K ohms , the two wired to the PCM on the same wire are as Robert stated, around 8.2K ohms each , 4.1 K ohms total to the PCM, which is why I had success in replacing the dual sensors withone KS6 3.9K ohm sensor years ago (I had thought I did , but CRS acted up again.....) .

To the OP , Sorry about cluttering up your thread , sometimes we get cought up in things and try to figure out something that is an issue . That way if somebody searches for an identical problem you are experiencing they can read thoroughly on the problem / cause / and possible solution.

If it were mine I would try to find a SBC V8 Memcal for the '7427 to start with , while the knock portion of your Memcal would suffice , the limp home Netres is incorrect in the event of a failure.

TOM

I decided to take option #4, think about my situation. Have a great weekend everyone.