Wide Band O2 / Narrow Band Combo?

Application: Marine 350CID
PCM = 16168625

Hello All,

Been trying to tune this application and determined that I need Wide Band O2 data. I have cut/drilled/tapped the water cooled manifold for the narrow band O2 last year when I installed the new engine and TBI. Now I need better data. Is there anyone that has experience is using a 0-5V WBO2 and also utilized same device to deliver the Narrow band info to the computer using the same bung and one sensor? Just trying to save some money and time to install another bung...it would be a pain in the %&$.

Your thoughts are appreciated.

-Fallflight

There seems to be an even split on using the NB sim outputs of WBO2 sensors.

Personally, I have not used the NB sim output on any of my WBO2 sensors.

I know Fasteddi is using the NB sim from his 14point7.com SLC_DIY in his Camaro, and likes it.

I use an SLC_DIY for tuning other people's cars, I will swap my LC-1 to an SLC at some point.

I have an Innovate LC-1 WB and don't like simulated, just makes tuning weird, easier to tune with WB Open Loop to get good fuel VE tables. Dial them in to 13/14 to 1 and leave the boat OL.

I'd like to see how you machined that intake for O2? You seem to be having issues, wonder if it is just cooling off the O2 sensor because of the water cooled exhaust? Or a heated O2 would help? I've always done boats OL.

I have a innovate MTX-L and love it. I actually swapped to feeding my pcm with the simulated NB output a few weeks ago. I have since found my AFR stays much closer to where it should be, all around its better. IDK if my old nb was just going out or what, but I was about to replace it and I figured I would try the simulated for the heck of it, just to see how it did. Now I am wondering if I have any reason to swap back to a nb.

I'm wondering if anyone has feedback they would like to share about the Innovative LC-1 http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/lc1.php and http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/s...C-1_Manual.pdf

Videos:thumbsup:
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/video/LC-101/sniffer_content.html


I see Amazon has a what looks like a fair price? http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000CO7TXK/...hvptwo=&hvqmt=

dave w

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dave w

I'm wondering if anyone has feedback they would like to share about the Innovative LC-1

dave w

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It works well! But very hard to wire in, it's like the middle is missing. If I had to do it again I like the MTX JeepsandGuns has because it will data log with gauge. Or Dynamic EFI...

Here's what I ended up doing with my LC-1, wired to Moates O-Meter, velcro to AutoProm for use together or seperate.
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...Band-O2-Sensor

I did not have good luck using the simulated NB output on my LM-1. The PCM kept commanding less fuel which resulted in very noticable lean spikes while cruising . Went to UN-heated NBO2 and they went away. Will be putting in heated NBO2 some day.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EagleMark

It works well! But very hard to wire in, it's like the middle is missing. If I had to do it again I like the MTX JeepsandGuns has because it will data log with gauge. Or Dynamic EFI...

Here's what I ended up doing with my LC-1, wired to Moates O-Meter, velcro to AutoProm for use together or seperate.
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...Band-O2-Sensor

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Mark,
Thanks for the feedback. I am thinking the LC1 could do "Double Duty" as fallflight is requesting. A WBO2 that provides both a simulated NB for the 16168625 PCM and provide the same 16168625 PCM (with modifications) WBO2 0v ~ 5v to the EGR Pittle valve for data logging?

dave w

Yup! But the simulated narrow band results have been less then ideal, same as gregs78cam, I've found OL tuning better off the WB.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EagleMark

Yup! But the simulated narrow band results have been less then ideal, same as gregs78cam, I've found OL tuning better off the WB.

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I've had similar experience using simulated Narrow Band results. I'll look at the MTX-L.

dave w

Right now I have my MTX-L feeding both the NB input on the pcm, and the egr pintle for WB datalogging.
Only thing is the data log dash doesnt read correctly, as I need to reprogram that output to what it needs to see. Only problem is that it only comes with a serial cable to program, and my computer does not have one of those ports. And I refuse to pay the $40-$50 for a usb adapter to use only one time. :mad1: Why in the hell does a company like innovate use the outdated serial cable, why oh why dont they join the rest of the world and use a usb cable?

Other than that, I love it. So much in fact, that I will be buying another one to install in my wrangler.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JeepsAndGuns

Right now I have my MTX-L feeding both the NB input on the pcm, and the egr pintle for WB datalogging.
Only thing is the data log dash doesnt read correctly, as I need to reprogram that output to what it needs to see. Only problem is that it only comes with a serial cable to program, and my computer does not have one of those ports. And I refuse to pay the $40-$50 for a usb adapter to use only one time. :mad1: Why in the hell does a company like innovate use the outdated serial cable, why oh why dont they join the rest of the world and use a usb cable?

Other than that, I love it. So much in fact, that I will be buying another one to install in my wrangler.

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JeepsAndGuns,
Thanks for the feedback on the MTX-L. I 100% agree with the USB vs Serial cable! I looked at the MTX-L manual webpage: http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/s...Manual_1.1.pdf very helpful.

dave w

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JeepsAndGuns

Right now I have my MTX-L feeding both the NB input on the pcm, and the egr pintle for WB datalogging.
Only thing is the data log dash doesnt read correctly, as I need to reprogram that output to what it needs to see. Only problem is that it only comes with a serial cable to program, and my computer does not have one of those ports. And I refuse to pay the $40-$50 for a usb adapter to use only one time. :mad1: Why in the hell does a company like innovate use the outdated serial cable, why oh why dont they join the rest of the world and use a usb cable?

Other than that, I love it. So much in fact, that I will be buying another one to install in my wrangler.

---

The serial connection of my LC-1 is what caused me to sell one of my LC1s (Will be selling the other at some point), and replace it with a 14point7.com SLC_DIY, it also has a multitude of other (datalogging) features that the Innovate hardware doesn't have without additional components.

I've never understood why people complain about a product, but then in the last sentence say "But I will be buying another..."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Six_Shooter

The serial connection of my LC-1 is what caused me to sell one of my LC1s (Will be selling the other at some point), and replace it with a 14point7.com SLC_DIY, it also has a multitude of other (datalogging) features that the Innovate hardware doesn't have without additional components.

I've never understood why people complain about a product, but then in the last sentence say "But I will be buying another..."

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I think there is a back-order on the 14point7.com SLC_DIY until August?

dave w

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dave w

I think there is a back-order on the 14point7.com SLC_DIY until August?

dave w

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It's worth the wait.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Six_Shooter

I've never understood why people complain about a product, but then in the last sentence say "But I will be buying another..."

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Its not the product I am complaining about, I love it! Its the cable I am complaining about. And its not that big of a complaint.

Just wondering, the simulated NB output of the MTX-L is 1.1 volt for AFR of 14, and 0.1 volt for AFR of 15. Is this correct for a gm ecm?

To me the serial connection is a BIG complaint, I have nothing but my desktop that has a serial port, and I had to add it. This is 2012, not 1998...

That voltage isn't correct for ANY ECM.

Innovate has finally upgraded there old technology, which was developed before USB. The new LM2 is USB!

Now that they also have a wireless OBDII data logger still using LogWorks but also capable of iPhone, iPad or PC I'm thinking the LC-1 may be a good investment after all. No serial or USB needed as the LC-1 plugs right in to get WideBand and OBDII data in same log!

http://www.ot-2.com/ot2adv.html

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JeepsAndGuns

Just wondering, the simulated NB output of the MTX-L is 1.1 volt for AFR of 14, and 0.1 volt for AFR of 15. Is this correct for a gm ecm?

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I once tried to figure out if BLM's and O2 voltages could be correlated ... not with any data processing method I know of. Ultimately, the use of the WBO2 to adjust the VE Table is the goal. I've seen near perfect 128 BLM's show 14.2 on the WBO2. In my thinking, that's TUNED!

My thinking is the simulated NB of the MTX-L is a no harm / no foul way of tuning. The NB simulated voltages provided MTX-L will keep the ECM happy when data logging to figure out what the AFR actually is. With enough WBO2 data the VE Tables can be adjusted so the NB will be happy after the WBO2 is removed.

dave w

Isn't stoich for 10% ethonal fuel 14.2 to 1?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EagleMark

Innovate has finally upgraded there old technology, which was developed before USB. The new LM2 is USB!

Now that they also have a wireless OBDII data logger still using LogWorks but also capable of iPhone, iPad or PC I'm thinking the LC-1 may be a good investment after all. No serial or USB needed as the LC-1 plugs right in to get WideBand and OBDII data in same log!

http://www.ot-2.com/ot2adv.html

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That's fine and all to be able to log wirelessly through other devices, but you still need to set-up the LC-1 before you can use it. Sure you can bench set it using a PC that has a serial port, but what happens if after installing it, the output voltages need to be adjusted? Are you actually going to remove the LC-1 from the vehicle just to change a setting?

IMO, "Innovate" really is not. A single guy working alone in Toronto Ontario, has a FAR superior product IMO, than a team of people working with a lot more money and better research facilities. 14point7 has also added the iDash, that has some better features than other similar systems I've seen on the market.

The point was really the OBDII data log part, it can be used wireless to smart phones or PC but still has USB cable port to PC and log works is pretty good for that part, having a plug in for the LC-1 was a bonus since I own one.

I haven't used the LC-1 in awhile and all I can remember is the middle is missing? It has the Wideband end, you still need a gauge but wiring it in is a PIA, nothing to attach to a gauge? I keep forgetting the free air test which is a ridiculous procedure! Remove WB sensor, touch black wire to ground or wire in a LED and momentary push button watch blinks... when did this product come out? 1995?

Serial to USB adapter is really not a concern. Anyone that has done EFI through PC technology has gone through the misery of finding one that works with proper drivers so they can use their new laptop which no longer has serial... or tried to keep their old windows 98 laptop running because it had serial. But that is old news and it all works. Why any product would still has a serial end is simple! It was developed before USB and has never changed, but anything new has USB because of PC tech...

Thinking about it the LC-1 is still a good WB and accurate but really designed to be installed and left in a vehicle! So what is an easy WB alternative to a temporary WB for tuning?

So is the 14 point 7 to 1 WB really easier? Got to be more then just a USB end on it for me because my adapter has worked fine for years. Could it be used as a portable/temp for WB tuning? Is it a gauge too along with data logging? Is it complete for wiring or do you have to build a middle? The only thing I can find on a writeup was never completed? :innocent2:

http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...6-14point7.com

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EagleMark

Isn't stoich for 10% ethonal fuel 14.2 to 1?

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Don't know.

So if someone installed "All the Ultimate TBI Mods" and had a WBO2 show 14.2 after tuning, that would be:jfj:

dave w

Yup! :jfj: well I've seen 14.1 to 14.3 listed, article below says 14.13...

I did notice a small increase in MPG when I changed Stoich in bin to 14.2 to 1, seemed to bring things closer and easier to 128 BLM

10% BLENDED FUEL RAISES BLMs
Chips programmed for real gasoline (Stoich 14.7) will cause the ecm to add fuel when using 10% blended gasoline (Stoich 14.13). Therefore, BLMs will shift to higher values because the O2 sensor signals the ecm of a leaner fuel mixture. For instance, a 1 BLM point change represents a 0.833% change in fueling commanded by the ecm. Therefore, a BLM cell which was set at 128 with real gasoline will indicate 133 when using 10% blended fuel (i.e. 5 BLM points x 0.833% = 4.1%) and 4.1% is the quantity of extra 10% blended fuel required for Stoich combustion. The BLMs can be biased to return to 128 by increasing fuel pressure at the regulator or by making a BLM offset adjustment if the chip (i.e. Extender) allows.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EagleMark

Yup! :jfj: well I've seen 14.1 to 14.3 listed, article below says 14.13...

I did notice a small increase in MPG when I changed Stoich in bin to 14.2 to 1, seemed to bring things closer and easier to 128 BLM

10% BLENDED FUEL RAISES BLMs
Chips programmed for real gasoline (Stoich 14.7) will cause the ecm to add fuel when using 10% blended gasoline (Stoich 14.13). Therefore, BLMs will shift to higher values because the O2 sensor signals the ecm of a leaner fuel mixture. For instance, a 1 BLM point change represents a 0.833% change in fueling commanded by the ecm. Therefore, a BLM cell which was set at 128 with real gasoline will indicate 133 when using 10% blended fuel (i.e. 5 BLM points x 0.833% = 4.1%) and 4.1% is the quantity of extra 10% blended fuel required for Stoich combustion. The BLMs can be biased to return to 128 by increasing fuel pressure at the regulator or by making a BLM offset adjustment if the chip (i.e. Extender) allows.

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Mark,
That is "good to know" information. So maybe I should change the Stoich paramter in the .bin when tuning E10? I haven't seen a real need to do so.

dave w

Me either till the stoich topic was brought up, thenI tried it and didn't notice any driving differance, but in checking MPG did see a slight increase and like said BLM seemed to fall in place easier.

Notice article said Real Gasoline is 14.7 to 1 AFR. We do have a couple places here in town that have Non Ethanol and 93 octane to boot. But this is not the norm, all pumps are usually indicating Ethenol 10% blend year round. I know some areas of country have winter and summer blends but I don't know what they are.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EagleMark

The point was really the OBDII data log part, it can be used wireless to smart phones or PC but still has USB cable port to PC and log works is pretty good for that part, having a plug in for the LC-1 was a bonus since I own one.

I haven't used the LC-1 in awhile and all I can remember is the middle is missing? It has the Wideband end, you still need a gauge but wiring it in is a PIA, nothing to attach to a gauge? I keep forgetting the free air test which is a ridiculous procedure! Remove WB sensor, touch black wire to ground or wire in a LED and momentary push button watch blinks... when did this product come out? 1995?

Serial to USB adapter is really not a concern. Anyone that has done EFI through PC technology has gone through the misery of finding one that works with proper drivers so they can use their new laptop which no longer has serial... or tried to keep their old windows 98 laptop running because it had serial. But that is old news and it all works. Why any product would still has a serial end is simple! It was developed before USB and has never changed, but anything new has USB because of PC tech...

Thinking about it the LC-1 is still a good WB and accurate but really designed to be installed and left in a vehicle! So what is an easy WB alternative to a temporary WB for tuning?

So is the 14 point 7 to 1 WB really easier? Got to be more then just a USB end on it for me because my adapter has worked fine for years. Could it be used as a portable/temp for WB tuning? Is it a gauge too along with data logging? Is it complete for wiring or do you have to build a middle? The only thing I can find on a writeup was never completed? :innocent2:

http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...6-14point7.com

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Start looking off site for information, like at www.14point7.com. ;) What I posted was not meant to be a complete review or how to use the product, 14point7.com has much more information than I could ever post in a single thread.

You may have spent the time and money to find a serial to USB adapter that works, I bought 2 (maybe 3), and when they stopped working, for no apparent reason, I decided I was done with serial products, at least in the automotive environment. I expect my devices that I need to interface with a PC that I buy in the 20 teens to have a USB connection. It's not just Innovate that has fallen behind, most aftermarket automotive electronics seem use serial. This includes most aftermarket ECMs, other WBO2 sensors, Techedge being the only other USB native WBO2 system, besides the 14point7 offerings, that I could find. My universal home theater remote has an USB connection for programming!

All of my laptops that had a serial connection have either disappeared (I can't seem to locate one that I thought I had) or have died. But that's the thing, why should I use a 10+ year old laptop to interface with a 2 month old product? Personally I haven't bought a laptop that has a serial connection in about 8 years or so, to me, serial versus USB is a HUGE concern. It is rumored that Windows 8 won't even support serial ports, so now you need to use a laptop that doesn't use an OS newer than Windows 7, if you really want to stick with using serial. Even using serial to USB convertes may be an issue with Windows 8. I haven't installed the trial yet to test it out. The only current laptop that I know that has a bonefied serial port is a Panasonic Toughbook, but not everyone is going to want to use one. I know my tuning bag is already full enough of equipment that I feel I need, to have to add more items, being USB to serial converters, just more clutter.

I hope you recall, that I have owned 2 LC-1s, one I have sold, the other is currently in my car, but will be selling when I take the car off the road for the rebuild. So far I haven't HAD to change any settings, after the initial set-up, but would be nice to have the ability, without removing it from the vehicle or buying yet ANOTHER piece of equipment. ;) Yes the SLCs ARE superior to the LC-1 in just about every way, except water resistance, but there is a large difference there, where the LC-1's controller is installed near the WBO2 sensor it self (the sensor actually plugs directly into the controller), where the SLCs mount in the vehicle and have a cable to run to the sensor. The SLC_DIY 2 ($190 with sensor) has 11 extra channels built for datalogging, kinda like adding an LMA-3 AND two SSI-4 and a DB gauge to an LC-1 (199+249+129+129+79=$785, plus you still need a serial to USB converter) The SLC_Pure Plus 2 ($275 with sensor) adds onboard datalogging to what the SLC_DIY 2 is capable of. The display can be cycled through a number of the logged inputs. Even if you just use the SLC_DIY 2 has a stand alone WBO2 controller and gauge, similar to what an LC-1 with DB gauge ($209 through Moates) would be used as, the SLC_DIY 2 is still cheaper and you already have the extra features if you decide you want them later without buying any additional parts, and in smaller form factor. ;)

I have the SLC_DIY V1, that when it was sold was a kit where the owner would actually solder all of the components to the circuit board itself. Takes about 4 hours for someone that is competent with soldering, the SLC_DIY V2 (current offering) is fully assembled, the owner just needs assemble the harness. Oh and the SLCs require no free air calibration, to me that's "easier". ;) I use my SLC for tuning other people's vehicles. The only thing I need to do is come up with a clip or bracket to attach to my laptop so that I can view it easily while tuning. I don't use the USB connection usually, due to the built in display.

I've used products from manufactures, both products in question, and I can say without a doubt, if I was to be given an LC-1 or have to buy an SLC_DIY or Pure Plus, I would buy the 14point7 products.