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So I've been working with the 16144288 ECM in my new Jeep J20 project with a 4.3L v6. I've noticed that upon cold start, the engine revs way up, then slowly backs down to the target idle. Sort of like giving it gas during startup. This really seems to makes for a very 'healthy' cold start and I like that.
So how do I make the ASDU bin file in my other jeep do the same thing? I messed with the IAC target idle in TP but that doesn't seem to do it.
Use the Park/Neutral wire. Ground while in P/N and open when in drive.
I don't have the P/N wire connected on any of my TBI conversions.
I'll try it though...
Not sure why the 16144288 ECM does it? Maybe it was a manul bin to start with?
That is how the 1227747 ASDU Auto bin works.
Yeah, I dunno. I haven't modded the 288 ECM for a ZIF socket yet, so I haven't messed with it at all (or even looked up the bin).
Here is what Bill over at the binderplantet FI FAQ's says;
B10-orn/blk- Park/Neutral sw. This is optional but I have hooked it into the park sw on the tranny. It tells the ECM when you are in Pk or N. It can be used to give a slight adjustment to idle speed when switching from park to drive and back.
That's what a lot of people think the wire is for. Not true, it changes the entire IAC routine in the ECM, in P/N the ECM has limited ability, like high and low, you get somewhere in there. In Drive you get complete IAC control of engine along with many other Idle Paremeters that involve fueling, IAC, O2, etc!
Many people have bought aftermarket wiring harness and last I checked Painless instructions are still wrong/backwards and no one can get a decent idle. Other aftermarket harness companies have a blank spot next to B10... and no instructions.
To understand more on how it really works read the paper written on IAC logic 13 years ago.
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...pdated-12-4-00
There are other ways to get the flare up when cold and TunerPro bin definition has the paremeters to do so, TunerCat does not. It works in manual stock bins but near as good as auto bins. But it would not include the IAC logic to soften change into gear. P/N switch is easy and a good addition to a conversion.
OK cool - so your saying that I should try wiring B10 into the tranny NSS so that B10 is grounded when in park or neutral and then open in when it's in gear?
I think I can do that.
Not sure what a NSS is but yes you have the right idea. Remember when grounded it will idle highrer. If you ever do an min air adjustment it has to be done in gear or open wire to B10, really screws with people when they can't get it right in P/N. :innocent2:
NSS = Neutral Safety Switch.
thanks for your help. I'm actually gonna go try and ground B10 and see what it does now...
I forget if the NSS can do it? Or it needs a ground relay off it.
Either way you got what needs to be done. If you ground the wire I can forsee the future! :popcorn: You will get your high cold idle, but will not like how it drives at all...
LOL yeah. I connected B10 to a good ground and started it up. I didn't notice any apparant difference in the idle (it was fully warmed up already). I am pretty sensitve to the idle 'cause this Jeep is lifted with 35" tires and has lots of slop in the driveline, producing a pretty good 'clunk' when shifting from park to drive (caused by numerous issues). This is aggravated by a high idle.
I'm gonna leave it connected and drive it 5 miles to work. Will report back then...
Connecting B10 to ground didn't make any change at all. I just left it connected to ground the whole time. I may have it set for manual tranny in the BIN...
Maybe? I've never tested an Auto bin with manual set for results. But when I did test this by disconnecting the B10 wire on a factory stock ADSU truck, the results were horrible. High idle always, banging in gear etc...
I checked in TP and sure enough - manual tranny.
I'll change it to automatic and see what happens...
Ok so I grounded B10 to a known good ground. I also swapped ECM's. It still has no hint of any kind of a 'rev up' upon start (cold or hot).
This is an AMC 401 with a stock rebuild. Morning temps have been in the single digits (F).
Any idea why? Here is my bin (keep in mind that I've done 0 data logging on this rig)
http://blakeoffroad.com/vps/Attachments/waggy-401.bin
Could be spark advace at idle is -6 to -10 from stock? WIth the cold spark bias you under 0 advance at start up.
Could be open loop AFR -1 to - 3 in that area?
Could be IAC park position off by 5?
Could be BPW of 165? Not sure how you came up with that number for a 401?
With those I think the motor is struggling just to keep running at cold start?
Need to turn Error 42 back on, it's a good one.
Error 43 is turned off as well. Do you not have a knock sensor? If not you should apply the ESC done patch so the forced knock test does not run. You've got 32 degrees advance, plus 5 in PE, plus 5 in the slope gain so your up to 42 degrees total spark advance... then add 11 degrees for forced knock test = 52 degrees and if it fails it adds 22 so your up to 62 degrees advance during the test! Minus 9.84 for the warm spark bias on all those totals...
I didin't see anything weird so I don't think you need to start with a fresh bin. Maybe some of them back to stock, have to calculate BPW!!! What injectors? What pressure?
eagle mark, look at the target idle speed verses coolent temp.it looks funny but iam use to 6 cylender bins.
never mind i looked agian i have the ao xdf on not the 42.:laugh:
blake the engine start up speed is 499, on my 6clyender it is 1176 rpms. in the scalers:popcorn:
LOL - yeah, make fun of the noob. :laugh:
i dont know what its should be, i have only messed with a 4.3 6 cylender,wish i could spell better would make for faster typing
My SA - Spark Bias - Cold is set at 20.04.Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleMark
What exact value are you referring too?Quote:
Could be open loop AFR -1 to - 3 in that area?
how do I tell?Quote:
Could be IAC park position off by 5?
I've played with it at 135. I think it was a little better at 165. I have not ran the numbers in the spreadsheet.Quote:
Could be BPW of 165? Not sure how you came up with that number for a 401?
Yes, it barely starts and barely idles for the first couple of minutes.Quote:
With those I think the motor is struggling just to keep running at cold start?
Ok.Quote:
Need to turn Error 42 back on, it's a good one.
I do not have a knock sensor. I apparently need to read up and the timing. I've only messed with the actual timing table (don't remember messing with any other's)Quote:
Error 43 is turned off as well. Do you not have a knock sensor? If not you should apply the ESC done patch so the forced knock test does not run. You've got 32 degrees advance, plus 5 in PE, plus 5 in the slope gain so your up to 42 degrees total spark advance... then add 11 degrees for forced knock test = 52 degrees and if it fails it adds 22 so your up to 62 degrees advance during the test! Minus 9.84 for the warm spark bias on all those totals...
This particular setup is a Howell TBI that was originally specd for an AMC 360 V8. I have never removed or really looked at the injectors. It's running a junkyard chevy truck harness that I took completely apart - only running the bare minimum wires) Stock motorcraft dizzy that I welded (I welded it before really paying attention to any of the 'phasing' threads, so I'm sure that is probably screwed up, I dunno, seem to run ok). The truck runs fine once warmed up and netted 10.5MPG on a single hwy run at 70mph. This MPG is average for the type of truck it is.Quote:
I didin't see anything weird so I don't think you need to start with a fresh bin. Maybe some of them back to stock, have to calculate BPW!!! What injectors? What pressure?
Any overall comments are helpful. I'm gonna mess with the bin in TP with some of your suggestions and will report back.
Thanks!
The rev up at start is the one and only thing I miss about the 7747. I can not get my 7427 to do it. I have changed several paramiters and can get it to do it for a while, but then it randomly decides not to do it.
Back when I had my 7747, mine would rev up and stay reved up for a good while. If I didnt set there and let it come down to idle, then it would stay reved up for as long as I drove, untill I set stopped long enough for it to come back down to idle. I was using the bin file ARJT. I ended up finding a table labeled "position after motor reset Vs barometric" (address is 0x606) I changed all of those to 0 and tried it. I would now get the 1 or so second rev up, then it would drop down to idle.
It might be worth a try to get a copy of that bin (ARJT) copy over your tables and what other important changes you have made and try it. I know it atleast worked on my 401.
You can get a copy of that bin in the $42 thread. http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...Information-42
499 is correct for his bin and a common number. Not sure why your's is higher? May be a V6 thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by ony
ENG Start Up Distributor Reference Pulse Periods. Setting affects start spark, fuel etc.... basically how long all the start up paremeters are in affect then engine is running.
Replies in red.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blake
Well I made a couple of tweaks as recommended and ended up with this bin. http://blakeoffroad.com/vps/Attachme...gy-401_001.bin
The 401 sat for two days in the cold then I started it up on this bin. It seemed to start a little better, but has absolutely no hint of revving up. The IAC was very loud after it started and was loud as I drove it around the block.
Ideas?
Open your bin in Tunerpro and then click on Compare and load a compare bin, ASDU. Open spark table and click the scale icon, use the icon next to it for difference, use the graph icon. See the difference in tables and how much spark your missing from idle?
Loud IAC sucking air noise is a sign that all the air is going through IAC and none or not enough past throttle blades. Turn the screw in 1/4 turn and give it a shot.
Data logs would really help!
You have done the min idle speed and tps adjustment on the TB havent you?
If idle is fine, but IAC is screaming, thats a good sign that the blades are closed too much.
There's 2 big misconception on how to do throttle blade min air setting and none of the internet write ups mention it. If you read this thread and the min air procedure you can figure it out!
First it must be done with engine warmed up and wait for it to go closed loop.
Second the final RPM should be 100 below what idle is programmed in bin, that's not a secret but did you read how IAC logic is totally differant with B10 wire grounded? So how would it work in park? It doesn't! Must be in drive or at least have B10 not grounded. In gear is better as it has the auto trans load on engine.
In the end when engine is totally warmed up and driven around a little, the IAC should be about 20 counts.
I've gotten very good at doing this because of all the off roaders around here that need rock solid idle. Cheat! Totally warmed up engine in gear and note IAC count of say 80, so throttle blades need more air, turn in screw 1/4 turn and then turn off engine for 10 seconds, restart so ECM calculates TPS postion to 0% that you just moved 1/4 turn, you can not see this value in a scan tool, this is why I added the TPS% hack, it should never be left on after this! Start engine and wait for it to go CL put in gear and watch IAC counts... now 40, rinse and repeat.
On a engine from the factory this should not be needed until around 100k on a auto and 50 60 K on manual, manual throttle moves a lot more then auto and wears faster. As they wear the throttle blades close. Another time it's needed is if throttle body was rebuilt or if installing it on another engine conversion. I'm sure there's a measurment way, some guys use a piece of paper to slide by throttle blades and bore. But in the end this procedure is accurate because your using the IAC counts.
Point of why all this is so important is the injectors are above throttle blades! If they are open properly then the fuel and air are mixed and flow through the intake, if not fuel and air does not mix well and dribbles into intake, now the intake is soaked and until you drive or rev engine for awhile nothing is right because of all the extra fuel in wet intake.
Thanks for all the help!
I've been following Bill's FAQ's over on BP (Is he on here???) as pretty much my only source of info. I've followed his "initial setup procedures" many times, on many different rigs. Most of the time the rig was cold and definitively not in closed loop.
I'll try the above and report back....
It's not that hard, if you need help let us know.
Here's a corrected clip.
Take the paper clip and open it up and form it into a big "U" shape. Insert the clip ends into the ALDL in the 'A' and 'B' pins.
With engine totally warmed up!
Turn on the ignition, but don't start the engine. Wait 30 seconds. Now, go remove the connector from the IAC.
Start engine.
With engine totally warmed up and in CL, if auto in drive (be careful, block wheels, parking brake on, friend to hold brake, this could be dangerous!)
Some vehicles will not idle as low as this procedure indicates, get as low as you can!
You are now going to adjust "minimum air". There is a Torx screw on the side of the throttle body. This is what needs to be turned to adjust minimum air, or more commonly known as "idle speed". It comes from the factory with a protective metal cap over it. If the cap is still there, use a small punch to knock it out. Set the idle speed to 100 RPM below what is set in bin for warmed up temp, rotating the Torx screw clockwise to raise rpm, and counter-clockwise to lower rpm. Once the idle rpm is set, turn off the engine.
Clear codes, start engine and should idle fine. Check IAC counts after it is driven a little. May have to turn off and let IAC go back to parked position, then restart.
Drive and enjoy!