External Zif socket...
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Maybe, the pic below is for a 100 pin ZIF socket. I don't know how many pins would be required for a flash chip, but I'm guessing something on the order of 100 pins is very probable? Actually something like the Moates.net Roadrunner is most likely the path forward for many furture DIY Tuners.
dave w
I'm not sure how to do it but heard Dimented24x7 mention that is what he is doing.
RoadRunner and TunerPro RT is the unrestricted future. Craig Moates has told me it will run any system with bin work, it has run more then a LS1 PCM already. Now if Robert Saar nAsty1 is being set to run any engine.... so all anyone will need is a nAsty1 RoadRunner and TunerPro RT!
the roadrunner is BASICALLY a LS1 PCM with a permanantly installed emulator.... and since a lot of the GM OBD2 PCMs(ones based on the 68332 processor anyways) are nearly identical, it's not really surprising if it could be moved to other PCMs easily or even using non-native BINs in the LS1 PCM.
FWIW: an 8-bit, 512KB flash PROM(like what would be found in a LS1 PCM) would require 20 address lines, 8 data lines and a couple of other pins for +5V, ground, chip select, output enable, read/write.... in the end, a little more than 30 pins required. if you can solder PLCC stuff, it's no problem at all.
actually, new info, and i should have known, but it's actually a 16 bit PROM... so 16 + 20 + etc = TSOP44 package. the space between the centerlines of the legs on the PROM is .8mm.... i'd like to think i'm damn good with a soldering iron, but that's tiny... doing that without a hot-air solution or otherwise fully computer controlled would be quite difficult.
There are companies like; QPL http://www.qplpcba.com/default.cfm that have PCB rework capability for IC's like an '0411 flash chip. Several years ago when I was doing the PCB failure analysis for Planar Systems in Hillsboro Or, QPL assembled and re-worked Printed Circuit Boards for Planar Systems. If there was enough interest, I would think QPL would be willing to install flash chip zif sockets to a small volume of automotive Printed Circuit Boards. The challenge I see with an '0411 PCM is having enough clearance in the computer case for the zif socket?
I'll also comment, the Moates.net Burn2 is not capable of reflashing the flash chip used in an '0411 PCM. A chip programmer similar to the ones offered by BX http://www.batronix.com/shop/program...ogrammers.html would be required along with the required chip adapter http://www.batronix.com/shop/adapter/index.html
I'm still thinking if / when restrictions for OBDII tuning happen, there will be ways to still continue on with OBDII tuning.
dave w
for that kind of money, the newer Willem units (4 series) will program nearly anything and for significantly less $$$... i believe the Intel 28Fx00 units from the 0411 included.
i'm sure there is plenty of room inside to just mount a ZIF socket on the surface of the board... based on what i've seen of the internals anyways. if the roadrunner will fit in the case, then a ZIF socket should be no problem. building a little access door so you don't have to open it completely would be a nice addition as well.
i can see the EPA cracking down on the diesel DPF stuff since it's all relatively new, but general gasoline tuning? wouldn't count on it.... if they had put their foot down when the subject was new, it would be effective, but not now... it's too widespread for them to have any hope of stopping it. CARB is ridiculous and they still aren't able to detect/deal with a lot of it.
Looks like the Roadrunner has a header and ribbon cable and board, I know Moates sells the header and would probably sell the ribbon cable? So would that put the chip outside?
Attachment 3487
Doesn't sound like a lot of wires needed, diagrams are all there...What kind of bin file to run it on another rig? Like OBDI...
Looks like loads of room if Moates can stuff a seperate board in there...
The guts of the LS1 controller look fairly typical for a modern electronic part. The flash memory chip is labeled "A" and the processor is labeled "B" in the shown photo.
Attachment 3488
huh..... i actually expected more ICs.... then again, the 68332 on it's own can do a lot more than the 6811 on it's own. there are a LOT of drivers.
So what would be the benefit of doing this? I know nothing about OBD2.
I'm guessing this simply removes the need for flashing through the obd port? What has caused the desire to do this?
You got it, get around cost or avalaibility of re-flash through OBDII port.
The Moates Roadrunner DIY kit is expensive but not out of control.
Black box Vortec instructions to modify for flashing without using OBDII were on gmecm years ago. Steve Ravet did some initial work with this.
http://www.diy-efi.org/gmecm/ecm_info/32bit/dumpflash/
I've been trying to tell people for years that OBDII is a step backward for tuning if you're only using the OBDII connection for programming. You lose all ability for real time emulating and changing the cal takes more time than burning and changing an eprom. The BDM flash is likely to be faster but Steve's instructions, like many from tech guys, make a lot of assumptions about knowledge and skill level of the user.
The ability to pull the chips out and make changes, however, means you will always have a way to modify your calibrations even if software to change through OBDII port is stopped. It's definitely worthwhile to work out a solution. Here's the first part of a hardware solution, a header which allows you to move the flash chip off the board:
http://www.moates.net/roadrunner-diy...on-header.html
Then you might be able to use a ribbon cable to move the connection point away from the board. Looks like at least one person on thirdgen is doing something similar. Luckily a 44 pin ribbon cable is fairly standard in the PC world so short pre-made cables are easy to locate:
http://www.cablesonline.com/44pinlapinri.html
Some good reading:
http://forum.efilive.com/showthread....-install-today
http://forum.efilive.com/showthread....t-installation
From here, there is a nice link to a page with pictures (because we all love pictures)
http://www.florida4x4.com/tech/rr-guts/
Of course, we're not looking to install the Roadrunner, only to install something such as a ZIF socket or ribbon cable. One approach might be to modify a GM memcal and install a ZIF or the proper flash chip on one end while leaving the other end unpopulated. Pin spacing would determine how difficult this is.
There are several tools available which appear to allow programming the PSOP44 44 pin flash device using a standard eprom programmer. They appear to be from China but maybe the cost is worth it:
http://www.dhgate.com/chip-programme...112a84964.html
http://www.oobdii.com/other-obd2-veh...-socket-psop44
Here's one for a Willems programmer:
http://tekdevice.com/chapter2/index....&product_id=55
Here's one that you complete:http://www.sivava.com/B09_Adapter.html
Of course, once you get this done it all begs the question of why can't you use your existing emulator? I'm sure some digging around might find those answers or enough clues to figure it out. Problems with timing, communications speed, and device storage capacity are all possibilities that come to mind. But one step at a time, of course.
HTH
I have the Moates LS1b RoadRunner PCM but, haven't used it yet. I have been told that you can flash it with a 512kb (99-02) or a 1mb (03-07) calibration. My truck is put away for the winter but, I hope to play around with the RR this summer.
Jeff
I've got a RR sitting here as well waiting to install in my vortec truck thanks to your work on the conversion! :thumbsup:
But I've actually broke some new ground with the 98-00 vortec PCM on EFI Live forum and have the Calc VE Calc MAF and almost the AutuTune tutorials working for the Vortec. One piece of info has been missing the whole time to make it work, it's the commanded AFR! It's named wrong in the Scan Tool so no one has been able to make it work. Right now we have a request in for MORE PAREMTERS, which are there, just not installed by EFI Live. Right now I'm using a cross of EFI Live, TunerCat and Hex from the Disasembly and it all works!
Once it's done the Road Runner is going in!
Thanks for the in depth info 1project2many. This puts it all into perspective! :thumbsup:
The idea of doing that and using the AutoProm or other emulator is intriging...
not that i've opened one to find out, but i THINK the largest BIN the autoPROM will deal with is 64KB.
Well I just tried to Upload a 512k bin to AutoProm and it says I messed up?
Need bigger chip?
that's a 128KB NVRAM module.... explains why a 512KB BIN would be an issue.
Still not knowing anything about OBD2 or flash chips. What makes it so bad to flash through the OBD port, that we are looking at removing the chip to flash it? Seems like your removing the need for buying a cable and software to flash the pcm, and instead making it to where you now have to buy a chip burner, cable and software.
I know there is more than one way to skin a cat, but I guess I am just not understanding whats going on.
I'd like some feedback on what could be a practical path forward for swapping the flash chip inside the LS 0411 PCM. I know Mark is interested in having the flash chip outside the LS 0411 PCM, but I interested in having a ZIF socket mounted inside the PCM for the flash chip.
I don't have much information about the internal electronics of the LS 0411 so I'm going to ask for some help here.
Is the LS 0411 flash chip available from electronics suppliers like DigiKey or Mouser Electronics? I'm thinking DigiKey and Mouser have the ZIF sockets available.
I'm thinking the binary file from the LS 0411 flash chip could be read and edited with software (TunerCats) used by the RoadRunner?
The idea I'm getting at is modify the LS 0411 PCM with a ZIF socket for the flash chip. Then read and rewrite the flash chip and install into the ZIF socket.
I see many practical applications for a LS 0411 PCM that has a ZIF for the flash chip.
dave w
the flash PROM is a fairly common Intel unit(AB28F400B). supposedly, at some point in time AMD units were used and they are 1MB instead of 512KB(AT28F800B)
I've seen several LS engine swaps with completely stock engines in Off-Road applications. Many of these Off-Road LS engine swaps require the PCM be shipped off to someone for the Off-Road flash programming. I think a ZIF modified LS 0411 allows for a lower cost option, than shipping off the LS 0411 for Off-Road programming.
dave w
Your understanding the topic. Software to do OBDII is EXPENSIVE and then per PCM license fees.
Guys have already done an LS1 XDF for TunerPro, there are also ADX files being worked on. But uploading through OBDII port poses hardware and software issues, so if there was a chip! The Willems GQ-4X will write it!
http://www.mcumall.com/comersus/stor...supportICs.asp
willems 3 and 4 series supported devices list.
both the 512K and 1M chips are on that list.
Finding a surface mount ZIF socket in the PSOP 44 package to solder on to the LS 0411 PCM circuit board is a challenge! ... I'm still looking.
dave w
hmm....
plenty of ZIF PSOP to DIP adapters out there....
it's kind of ghetto, but assuming no PSOP44 ZIF sockets could be found, most PSOP44 to DIP adapters could have the PSOP socket desoldered from them and use that.
So if flashing through the obd port, you having to go through a bunch of other software in the pcm to "get to" the bin to be able to even read and write it? Where if you go right to the chip you can skip all that?
So basicly your getting rid of the need for the uber expensive software and the highway robbery per vehicle licence, and making it avalabe to be done with tunerpro and a chip burner?
That is the goal, go directly to the flash chip. Some people have the surface mount IC soldering skills to desolder the flash chip, then read / write the flash chip, and then resolder the flash chip back onto the LS 0411 circuit board. The parts I'm hoping to find parts, would allow for desoldering the flash chip, then solder in a surface mount PSOP 44 ZIF socket were the flash chip was. This would allow for "Chip Swapping" like OBDI.
dave w
I wouldn't get hung up on putting the ZIF on the board. The Moates header linked above looks like the proper pin spacing to use as a memcal plug. Remove the eprom and any other chips / hardware from the memcal and you've got a good socket to use for an adapter board. There's a guy selling adapter boards with the ZIF on Ebay for $20 with shipping but I'd bet you could find a solder type for less than $10 and permanently install the flash chip on the adapter. It'd be nice to find a DIP package flash that's compatible but it looks like the speed of those devices could be a problem.
The socket you see on most of the adapter boards is a "Test socket" and you can see it here:
http://www.enplas-ets.com/pdf2/sop_opentop_th.pdf
The number is OTS-44-1.27-03. Sockets aren't cheap though. Ebay vendors tend to be above $25 per socket.
Anyone want to share the cost? This brings them down to $9 each:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI...ectorid=229466
Happy hunting.
eh, i can see if this takes off where 15 probably won't be enough. :D
The RoadRunner Header is wrong spacing for Memcal.
Not sure what that origanal RR picture has a ribbon cable? Header plugs directly into RoadRunner Emulater board.
That wouldn't be a bad thing.
The real goal would be a header that could attach to ribbon for external mounted chip, then when done tining remove ribbon and mount chip w/adapter on header inside PCM.
If I were tuning for customers I'd probably have a single pcm with the ribbon cable or roadrunner and use the memcal or internal socket in the customer pcm.
probably not a bad idea....
i don't suppose VIN/security issues would come up?
I'm thinking of making an adapter board. I've done several PCA's for my employer over the last few years. I have experience with Gerber Files. I'll post up some pics of the "obsolete" boards I've done, so I don't to get into trouble! I'm thinking I can make a board that will hold the ZIF socket, then have a dip header soldered onto the LS 0411 board so the adapter board can be soldered to the header. It might make be worth looking at using a PLCC 44 chip to keep costs down and parts availability up? Anything is possible with Gerber Files!
dave w
Security might be an issue on later vehicles. I tend to think of the earlier trucks but really everything should be considered. If VIN and other relevant info is stored in the flash then a read / copy operation might take care of it. Unfortunately this gets beyond my experience level. If we get this working though I'm going to have to start gathering bunches of new training material.
Dave, the PLCC chips I looked at could be too slow. If I read the data sheets correctly, the Intel chips had access speeds of approximately 60-80ns while the older technology chips were in the 120ns range. If the processor cannot get data or fetch code quickly enough you run into problems and a crash could result. But I only had a couple of minutes during lunch so I probably missed more than I found in terms of chips. The socketed board with header would be cool for development and tuning but long range, for a customer, is there anything wrong with soldering the flash to the board other than the difficulty of soldering? Is the cost difference worth the work? And please don't get into trouble posting work related files. If nothing else, remove pertinent details or post files with errors. Your work will show through without fear of the design being put into use.
VIN is in the flash. If the same bin file is used there would be no VATS secuity issues. Just don't turn key on with no chip in. Not sure how other modules on the line would like if power was turned on without a chip. You can reflash the calibration 96k portion of the bin in the vehicle. But if you do a full flash 512k which includes the operating system the other modules FREAK when they loose contact with mother ship. So full flash needs to be done on bench. Rule of thumb is safe. Fuell flash in vehicle could cause brick.
So we have a header, Dave W makes a board with chip socket to plug into header, chip socket needs a ribbon for outside chip socket, take that off and put chip inside... Done! :popcorn: