454 TBI Swap 78 K30 Trouble with TunerproRT and Winaldl, etc.

Yes, I'm a newbie, been trolling on here for a while, just now registered. Searched for countless hours using forums and google, and I'm exhausted after trying to fix this truck.

Here is the background and I'll get on with the problems.

78 K30 Frame and Running gear, 454/TH400/205
88 S10 Cab,

My dad bought the truck a year a go to wheel while we dovetail, bob, shorten, and turn his 84 suburban on 1-tons into an 84 Avalanche. When we bought the truck it had a street avenger carb that someone had attempted to convert into a truck avenger. Truck ran good on flat ground, but sucked in the hills with fuel spilling out of vent tube into the venture. Truck would run rich on full throttle and very lean on part throttle. Ditched the carb, and bought parts to swap to fuel injection.

Howell Harness for 95 C3500HD 7.4L, and Prom to remove VSS and EGR functions
95 ECM, 16197427, BHMH Bin
95 GM OEM 7.4L Throttle Body

We installed the harness and all sensors. ( IAC, MAP, Heated O2, TPS, CTS). Running a factory style GM HEI....

Bottom line is, the truck runs super rich, and Howell has not been very helpful.

Using a Volt meter, as well as a borrowed OBD1 Scanner, we have checked all the sensors and everything is working correctly. Vacuum is steady at idle at 18.5-19". Idles choppy at 750-900 rpms. Small cam in 454, not too much overlap, considering idle vacuum. No other mechanical problems or vacuum leaks. Checked and rechecked all the typical easy fixes, and checked for leaks using propane, and found nothing.

The Heated O2 Sensor is in the Pass side header, just downstream of the collector, and measures around .89V at idle, pointing out the Rich Condition.
The Map Sensor voltage is between 1.5-1.8V at idle, again 18.5-19".
The Tps sensor was reading 1-2% at idle,
The IAC works and could been seen stepping in/out on the borrowed scanner.
The Base ignition timing is set at 12 degrees advanced with the connect closed (jumping out terminals)
The CTS is reading 298 ohms at 190 degrees, and 617 ohms at 150 degrees. Whether the engine is cold or warm, no change in AFR.

Fuel Pressure is 30psi, and the regulator works. From Howell -> 1995 HD 7.4 models used a higher 30psi fuel pressure to get needed flow from injectors. At first startup we had 15psi tbi pump and it definitely ran worse. Swapped to e2000 pump. Confirmed Regulator is working by pinching off return line and pressure runs up quickly. All new fuel lines so I doubt a blocked return line with the confirmed regulator operation.

As you crank up the truck the O2 sensor voltage starts at .45 volts and just creeps upward to .89-.9 the longer it runs. The exhaust will burn your eyes and is obviously rich, as well as plug fouling doesn't take too long. Tried 3 different heat range plugs with no effect.

Once engine is warm, when you drop it in gear, truck will stumble and stalls 50% of the time.

Replaced O2 sensor, TPS, MAP, and CTS and makes no difference. Only difference is truck runs better with the O2 sensor unplugged.

This brings me to building an ALDL cable per instructions on several forums. Can run it on either direct serial port or Serial to usb converter. Verified cable operation by plugging it in to 89 4.3L s10 blazer, and had all functions of WINALDL and Freescan. I have downloaded tunerproRT, Winaldl, and Freescan and nothing will communicate with the 95 ECM. The goal is to further diagnose the terrible rich condition by using TunerproRT as a glorified scan tool, and decide how to fix the truck, and get it to run better.

I downloaded the BMHM bin file, as well as the $0D Mask, and the $31 mask from this site.
Pretty sure I have done necessary steps with TunerPRORT but not positive because I have no communication with 95 ECM.

Also, when I try to open bmhm bin file, tunerprort says unable to open.

First off, not sure If I am doing correct things in the correct order with TunerproRT, and not sure if I installed the BIN file and Mask correctly. I'm not fluent with TunerproRT yet, but tested the ALDL cable using WINaldl on the 89 4.3, to rule out that it is a cable problem.

Any Ideas on why it is running rich? and Any advice appreciated on how to use TunerproRT with the masks for my ECM.

Thanks,
Scott.

If your getting a steady voltage reading from the O2 sensor then it's in Open Loop, no O2 sensor feedback to correct fueling. Will it go Closed Loop and see O2 sensor fluctuate when revved up? This would then do some fueling correction. If the fuel pressure is correct as stated then it's rich because of the tune. These 7.4L do like richer then normal at idle so it may be an Open Loop Idle bin? The narrow band is a good indicator but no where near as accurate when outside a very small range at .451v. Without a CAT everything smells rich to the human AFR meter we call a nose... :laugh: Although fouling plugs is a bad sign and your right, to rich... How's it run other then that? Never mind do the next step first...

Set timing to 4 degrees advance with bypass wire disconnected. Not sure what you did but it is not correct way to set timing?

For the idle, what was IAC counts when warmed up after being driven? Should be under 30. For now you could turn throttle blade stop screw in 1/4 to 1/2 turn to let in more air to mix with fuel. This usually is a big help for idle quality.

You gave two different BCC? So I'm guessing at BMHM being correct as it is for a 95 7.4L engine. This is Maask ID $31 so you'll need that XDF and ADX file or you will not get correct communications for data in TunerPro RT.

This tutorial helps guys catch up to speed with TuenrPro RT.
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...-a-must-read!-)

Since your cable is working the above instructions as well as this link below should get TunerPRo RT dialed in with your cable:
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...to-TunerPro-RT

Then record the data, save it and can post it here so we can see what is going on!

HTH! :rockon:

We set timing with the EST disconnected (Tan wire) initially at 4 degrees, and then disconnected battery per howell instructions. To get the truck driveable we set timing at 6,8,10, then 12 degrees advanced using the same methods in stages to track progress. The O2 sensor starts at .3 V and headed to just below .9v while running, idle and revved up. The fuel smoke coming from the exhaust was a better hint than my nose...that and fouled plugs saturated with fuel. We do have a nice conical spray pattern with injectors that are opening like normal. Im current using the $31 XDF, and $31 adx, and $31 ads file in Tunerpro. Ive also tried switching to $0E xdf and adx, and the $0D xdf and adx. I'm not positive that it ever leaves open loop. We messed around with the Iac and the throttle screw with howells advice and calibrating adjustments to ECM but no really effects were ever made. It still runs very rich driving it. I wish I were as rich as this truck...

I'm going off of that same tutorial to get going.

Pics are of ECM, and screen shots of all im getting with tuner pro.

Thanks Again, I appreciate it..

Attachment 6306Attachment 6305Attachment 6307

What does CEL do when Key On engine off?

Look at top of injectors and get the numbers off them?

I've opened the BMHM bin file and in hex code it is $31. So use only those files.

Connection to TunerPro RT needs correct ADX file, cable installed on USB port, always use same USB port, look under Device manager in PC and see what Com port is assigned, go in TunerPro and make sure it is same Com port. Check cable connection with cable plugged into PC and not vehicle.

Something is wrong! duh, right? Adding that much timing to cover up an issue is on the dangerous side.

The BMHM chip is for a 4L80E transmission. So I hope Howell turned off more then VSS and EGR... even then I've done one of these type PCM without VSS and it was so much work to tune in person I'd never do it again! When you had Scan tool what error codes were set? Right now if injectors are correct numbers and CEL comes on, blinks and stays on till engine is started then goes off when engine is started? If not, or blinks when engine is started it's in Limp Home Mode, running that rich is what happens in LHM...

You have an XDF selected now? In that screen shot there is none selected. The timing needs to be set at 4 degrees and tuned from there if it is stock style ECM controlled. When everything is setup right, the tune will fall right in line.

Sounds like the injector flow rates are all screwed up VS the injectors that you are running. If you have the earlier BBC injectors in it, then you will be super rich just as you describe. Can you see any part numbers on them?

Edit: Looks like I was ninja'd by Mark :D

I also noticed that you cursor is pointing to Initialise Emulation Hardware? You don't have emulation? To connect you need to click on the Double Arrows, "Aquire Data (Connect disconnect) to get data...

I lost the paper i had written the injector #'s on, but i had previously looked up the color and verified the # to be the 94-95 7.4, lower flow rated, but higher pressure ones.

Every time I go through the process to select the xdf, it still shows at top no XDF selected. I follow the steps outlined in your tutorial I printed. The cursor over the initialize emulation is just a fluke. I was clicking the double arrow and all that changed was at the bottom: DA Not Connected to DA Connecting. I changed the com port in the tuner pro and did the test and it recognizes the cord.

What I'm doing, according to the tutorial:

Here's what your need to download, read through then below more instructions how to put them in TunerPro.

First your bin/chip/ASDU.bin

Then you need the mask (xdf) to read the bin in English, not hex, $42-1227747-V3.xdf

Then you need the file for data/scanner (adx) file for the bin/chip/ECM which is the $42-1227747-V3.adx

The data logged is saved in a file with .xdl at end and can be named anything... you do not need this but it is in the thread above so you can see what a data log looks like and play it back to see how your engine is doing and where changes need to be made. It is file named 11-27-11-3.xdl
With TunerPro downloaded and installed open it. Then...

1. CHIP: .bin extension. TunerPro, File, Open Bin. Choose your bin you downloaded and saved. Now your bin is loaded in TunerPro.
My file saved in Bins folder: BMHM.bin

2. MASK: .xdf file extension. TunerPro still open, XDF, select your xdf you downloaded and saved, now your mask is loaded in TunerPro. You can now make changes to your chip/bin file.
My file: Saved in Bin definitions folder: A219 TP5 v250 $31.xdf

3. SCANNER/Data Logger: .adx file extension. TunerPro still open, Acquisition, Load Definition file you downloaded and saved . Now your acquisition file is loaded in TunerPro. You can now record data from car. Or play back a data log if you do next step.
MY file: A219 TP5 v250 $31.adx

4. DATA LOG: .xdl file extension. TunerPro still open, Acquisition, Load Log file.

Sounds like you have all correct files. Except forget step 4, that is if you want to look at your already recorded data log. You do not need the XDF file to data log. But why won't it load in TunerPro?

In title bar, XDF then drop down, Select XDF, click on your XDF, Open and it should be there.

Data is what we want right now so: SCANNER/Data Logger: .adx file extension. TunerPro still open, Acquisition, Load Definition file you downloaded and saved . Now your acquisition file is loaded in TunerPro. You can now record data from car. Hook up cable to vehicle, start and run engine, click double arrows or Acquisition, Start/Stop Data Scan, when you see data Acquisition, Record!

You never said what your CEL is doing. If it's in LHM you may not get data as something is catastrophically wrong!

So I received new, not homebuilt aldl to usb cable, with driver software and installed everything. Cable and driver are installed as com5. After searching, I discovered the thread about that driver version to use and I am now using the .14 driver for the cable. However when I get tunerprort set up with bin file, xdf, and ADX, when I go to preferences and configure for the cable on com5, every time I check cable it gives me same message as cable not found tested at 8192 baud.

Attachment 6389
Attachment 6390
Attachment 6391
Attachment 6392

Thanks for the help guys,

Eagle Mark I will have more answers about the CEL when I get the truck out from the snow and warmed up. Trying to resolve this cable issue before I head out and try to knock out this one bird with an RPG....

again, thanks for the help.






Also, Cant figure out why I unplug the ALDL USB cable, and plug it in to any other port and it always comes up COM5, is this because the driver always recognized the cable as COM5?

As well, I used HyperTerminal program and selected COM 5 with 9600 Baud, and no signals showing on COM5 when I turn key on.

The cable test is done with cable hooked to PC and not vehicle, it will fail if hooked to vehicle.

Wondering on the cable, who made it? Red Devil River was the one who found big issues with new FTDI chips and drivers and he had 2.8.24.0 as driver. Just looked at my in car tuning laptop and still at 2.08.14 driver. This is the only one that goes into vehicles any more... All my cables and devices are years old though. The driver issues started popping up with newer FDTI chips.

Also the driver needs to be same in Com Port and USB Serial Converter!

Then once I did get a brand new ALDLCables.com cable that was faulty? There is always a possibility that a brand new cable like any other brand new part can be faulty?

I've been told it does not matter what USB port you plug into once a cable is installed... but I've found to many times that the cable needs to be used with same USB port or it fails or needs to be reinstalled? I forget but all my laptops use USB port on left side or if 2, left side rear as the cable points to dashboard when on the pass seat. I never change USB ports anymore!

I also do not change any defaults on Com port settings.

You really seem to be doing everything properly! I'd restart computer with nothing plugged into any USB ports, plug in cable to original USB port it was installed on, check Device manager for Com Port number, open TunerPro and there should only be one Com port available. If more then one port is shown in TP? Choose the one in {Com x} IIRC.

I'm out of tips? Hope that helps?

I've asked Mark M at TunerPRo why installing cables is such and issue when there's never issues with other Data Logging programs and his answer was... "Other programs only take pass through cables but TunerPro accepts pass through cables and devices like Autoprom etc...

Once you get the cable and TP happy... we still have a major malfuntion which is probably why it's running so poorly! Also the reason I asked what CEL is doing. You said:

Quote:

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This brings me to building an ALDL cable per instructions on several forums. Can run it on either direct serial port or Serial to usb converter. Verified cable operation by plugging it in to 89 4.3L s10 blazer, and had all functions of WINALDL and Freescan. I have downloaded tunerproRT, Winaldl, and Freescan and nothing will communicate with the 95 ECM. The goal is to further diagnose the terrible rich condition by using TunerproRT as a glorified scan tool, and decide how to fix the truck, and get it to run better.

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If you can get data with other vehicle and same laptop and cable, but not this vehicle? You may not have data? Could be a wiring issue? Although Howell makes good stuff they are still human, so are you. So need to check serial data wire from ALDL port to PCM, check the serial wire is in correct location on ALDL port, check ground on ALDL port etc... if a couple wires got swapped at ALDL port... well obviously you won't get data!

Also what does Howell do for the chip nowadays? Do they use a G1 adapter? If so is it installed correctly? Look at this thread with pictures

http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...er-form-Moates

The Check Engine Light operates as follows

Key off position: obviously light off
Key run position: light flashes once and then remains on
key start, then to run: light remains on, until engine fires and runs, light goes off and remains off

Only DTC shown is 1-2 : verifying operation of "Short" in ALDL cable asking for DTC display

I have two laptops and two cables,

Laptop A: Dell with Tunerpro RT with all same .bin, .adx, and .xdf Has serial port and usb port. Loaded with all same drivers as Laptop B
Laptop B: HP with usb only ports, loaded with tunerprort, same bin,adx, and xdf files. same drivers as laptop A

Cable 1: Homeade cable with switch to allow direct "short" to retrieve DTC codes, 3.9K ohm resistor can be switched on, 10k ohm resistor can be switched on. This cable goes direct ALDL to Serial.

Cable 2: ALDL to USB cable from www.aldlcable.com Has moveable bar to change from open to 10k ohms, to direct short.


To explain in better detail.

I hooked Laptop A and cable 1 to 89 4.3 s10 blazer, and view ALDL information using FreeScan program. I was able to view dashboard as well as sensor data. Switched to direct "short" condition, and viewed DTC code for TPS voltage low, which matched sensor data and flags. This confirmed that the cable we had built was working correctly with 89 4.3 S10 blazer.

I then hooked laptop A and cable 1 to 78 K30 454, and using Freescan, and nothing happened. This is when i downloaded and installed TPRT on both laptops, and installed all corresponding bin files, adx files, and xdf files, all for $31 mask. I also ordered the cable 2 at this point.

Then I hooked cable 1 to laptop B using usb to serial adapter and TPRT failed to recognize cable, with correct drivers and COM port settings.

Next I hooked cable 2, to laptop B direct to usb, changed COM settings and TPRT failed to recognize cable.

Next I hooked cable 1 to Laptop A, direct to serial port, TUNERPRORT recognized the cable!!!. Next i hooked to 78 K30 7.4 Still using $31 mask files, still failed to connect to ECM. I then verified that cable 1 is still working with ECM, by switching to direct "short" to display DTC, and i get a code 1-2, verify operation. I then tried Freescan, Winaldl and tunerprort again, with no info from ECM.

My thoughts were then, maybe the ALDL plug was wired incorrectly from howell: But-> we had our resident tune up guy bring himself and an OBD1 scanner, early on trying to make sure all sensors were working correctly and he could view all data, and see that all sensors were working correctly. The fact that he could, and I witnessed the data on his screen, makes me think the Chip Howell did and the aldl plug they wired are both correct. He had the truck for over a month going over everything and could find nothing wrong with any sensor, or any other hardware or wiring issue.

So where we are now:

Laptop A, with cable 1, is the only way TPRT will recognize any cable, but still no data stream from ECM on 78 k30 7.4. When I click the double arrow button to connect to ECM, for 1.5 seconds, it says DA Connecting: then goes back to DA not connected.


Attachment 6502

P.s. IIRC it is switching between open and closed loop, this info from when tune up guy had his professional scanner plugged in.

Base Timing with tan wire disconnected is set at 4 degrees. Note: when i unplugged that connector to check timing, the idle definitely got much smoother, and truck ran better. Then disconnect battery, reconnected the tan wire connector(for setting timing) and truck is back idling terrible.

With base timing at 4 degrees instead of the 12 degrees before, the truck runs moderately better through the rpm range and varying loads.

however, the terrible idle quality is worse than before, and will immediately stall when dropped into gear once warm, and stall if you do not keep some throttle opening while driving. Truck is definitely surging at idle.

From what Ive read it seems like if I adjust the idle screw, i need to get the IAC counts in a certain range, but I can't view the counts bc i'm not getting any aldl data. Catch 22. Thinking that the idle blade position and IAC counts are hopefully causing the terrible idle issue, stalling on deceleration, stalling when dropped in gear problem that I was band-aiding by advancing the timing more than normal before, inadvertaintly increasing idle speed.

So been trying to fool this thing all day with no notable progress.

I warmed up engine to operating temp and made sure tstat was open at 200 degrees. I revved and held engine at 2k RPM to ensure IAC was completely closed, and unplugged IAC, and shut motor down. Next I cranked engine back up with IAC disconnected and shifted into gear while hold brake, and set minimum idle speed before stalling at 950 rpm. Anything below that and the engine is erratic and completely stalls. I shut everything down, and reconnected IAC.
Next, i back probed the TPS, and adjusted it so the voltage is back at .59v so that the ecm thinks we are back zero throttle opening.

Took the truck out, and now idle in park is around 1700 rpm, and when you drop it in gear, idle speed drops to 950 and only now stalls 50% of the time. Drove around, no noticeable difference other than wanting to push through the brakes almost all the time, and no longer stalling on deceleration.

Put the truck in low range, and it still stalls everytime its placed in gear. If i finesse the throttle while putting it in gear it will stay running, but pushes through the brakes like they are not even there.

1) To me, its dumb to have it idle so high if it still is going to stall when dropped in gear,
2) My first thought is that the cam has too much duration & overlap, and this is why its stalling at anything below 950 rpm. However, idle vacuum was 18.5-19.5 inches at 950, more vacuum than my bone stock 97 7.4L.
3) Torque converter stall speed is just two low for the cam specs.
4) Im almost positive having the throttle opened this far at 1700 rpm idle is confusing the ECM seeing different MAP voltages and TPS voltages...
5) still no luck scanning or datalogging

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 5cottymac

So been trying to fool this thing all day with no notable progress.

I warmed up engine to operating temp and made sure tstat was open at 200 degrees. I revved and held engine at 2k RPM to ensure IAC was completely closed...

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What would make you think the IAC was completely closed like this? Seriously I'd like to know...

More RPM and IAC opens more, it's called the throttle follower.

Here's the Procedure for setting IAC... but I don't use it anymore as I have found that adjusting IAC when motor is warmed up and driven for a data log that at end of log I idle in gear a minute and in neutral for a minute. Look at IAC counts! Keep them under 20... if they are 40 then turn throttle stop screw (has nothing to do with idlae RPM setting) in 1/4 turn to let more air over throttle blades and less through IAC. When done you need to turn engine off for a minute and restart so PCM calculates TPS % to 0, it does this every time. This is why having your foot on gas pedal when turning key on is a bad thing.

Quote:

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2. IAC reset/min idle speed- This sets the throttle plate on the throttle body to a specific rpm. It should be set to 100-125 RPM below idle commanded in bin file. At ALDL connector you need to put a jumper between pins A and B of the connector. These are pins A9 (what/blk) and A12 (blk/wht) on the ECM. This puts the ECM into ALDL mode. Turn the key on (not start) and the IAC should drive completely closed. You will normally hear a buzzing from the IAC. If you have the TunerPro running up and running on your laptop, or a Scan Tool you should see the IAC went from 145 to 0. Now unplug the IAC connector. Turn the key off. Remove jumper. Start motor. If the idle is too low you may have to keep it running. On the front drivers side of the throttle body is the adjustment screw. It will probably be behind a silver plug. If so just use a drill bit slowly to drill a hole, not to deep as to damage the torx screw behind it, just enough to use a punch to grab it and remove it. Then use a #20 torx bit to adjust the idle speed to at least 100 rpm less then your warm idle speed in bin. If 600 then set to 500 rpm. You are looking for the lowest consistent idle your motor will do. When set, turn off motor and reconnect the IAC. I try to keep the IAC count to at least 10-20 with the motor warm and idling. Higher number are OK but more air pushing gas past throttle blades on TBI engines is better!

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For your data how about checking what Pin the ALDL data is coming through on? Some cables can read both Pins but others need a specific pin. Code 12 and what your CEL is doing is a good thing!

Quote:

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160 baud on pin E of ALDL port and 97427 is 8192 baud on pin M of ALDL port.

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You need 8192 Baud Pin M and then correct ADX... I forget what bin your using? $0E or $0D?

Do you have a stock Memcal to put in and try it instead of the Howell?

Set timing to 4*, clear codes. Check timing, where is it at when warmed up?

Quote:

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Fuel Pressure is 30psi, and the regulator works. From Howell -> 1995 HD 7.4 models used a higher 30psi fuel pressure to get needed flow from injectors. At first startup we had 15psi tbi pump and it definitely ran worse. Swapped to e2000 pump. Confirmed Regulator is working by pinching off return line and pressure runs up quickly. All new fuel lines so I doubt a blocked return line with the confirmed regulator operation.

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If you have good injectors that were serviced and they are correct lb/hr = part number.

Also the E2000 pump will never keep up with fuel demands on this motor! It may idle and cruise, but at high load and RPM you will be running out of fuel = LEAN!!!

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Howell Harness for 95 C3500HD 7.4L, and Prom to remove VSS...

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This is just a stupid move on Howells part and you may never have a good idle with this PCM!

Which pin in the DLC connector is your serial data wire in? E or M?

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/i...1k8F4rkqJMgivQ

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EagleMark

What would make you think the IAC was completely closed like this? Seriously I'd like to know...

More RPM and IAC opens more, it's called the throttle follower.

Here's the Procedure for setting IAC... but I don't use it anymore as I have found that adjusting IAC when motor is warmed up and driven for a data log that at end of log I idle in gear a minute and in neutral for a minute. Look at IAC counts! Keep them under 20... if they are 40 then turn throttle stop screw (has nothing to do with idlae RPM setting) in 1/4 turn to let more air over throttle blades and less through IAC. When done you need to turn engine off for a minute and restart so PCM calculates TPS % to 0, it does this every time. This is why having your foot on gas pedal when turning key on is a bad thing.



For your data how about checking what Pin the ALDL data is coming through on? Some cables can read both Pins but others need a specific pin. Code 12 and what your CEL is doing is a good thing!

You need 8192 Baud Pin M and then correct ADX... I forget what bin your using? $0E or $0D?

Do you have a stock Memcal to put in and try it instead of the Howell?

Set timing to 4*, clear codes. Check timing, where is it at when warmed up?

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For two reason I know the IAC was closed completely. 1) I shorted the ALDL pins to put computer to check for DTCs, and turned key on. In theory, this extended the IAC to fully closed. I build a gauge from a piece of TIG filler wire to ride on tip of IAC, and show me how retracted/extended the IAC is. I then marked on my gauge location of IAC with key on, aldl pins shorted as a baseline. To ensure the theory works, Cranked up truck and watched on my homebrew gauge extension amount of IAC as the idle progress and as it revved. I confirmed fully closed position at 2k rpm no load, as well as theory of how to make ECM close IAC fully. Same postion mark on my homebrew gauge. To visually confirm this I watched the IAC open and fully close from top of throttle body.


As for ALDL cables, both were wired for both pins.

Timing is currently set at 4 degrees.

I have not way to view IAC counts. I am using the BMHM bin, and $31 mask adx, and xdf.

The howell "chip" is removeable. We have tried howell chip with this ECM #16197427 BMHM that is ECM that was out of 95 C3500HD donor truck. Also tried with and without Howell chip on spare 16197427 BDXJ ECM, that is a spare we borrowed from 1994 C1500 4.3 . The best combination is with Howell "chip" installed on the BMHM ECM, and results only worsen with other combinations.


About fuel system.

Inj #'s Driver side = 17104288 ACR 3075 GM, Pass side = 17104288 ACR 2275 GM

Fuel pump is E2000 pump, and we have 30psi on supply and 0psi on return, and when return pinched off, supply shoots upward...
I understand your worries about the flow capabilities of the this pump, and this issue has been debated over and over. I have first hand experience with this pump running a stroked 320hp Jeep 4.8L motor with 180lbs worth of injectors to feed at 45 psi, as well as a cammed big tune 6.0L LQ9 with 430hp, and never missed a beat, dyno proven with WB02. Either way, two things are confirmed:

1) IF e2000 pump is not big enough, then you confirmed that truck runs better off idle, rpms and load increased, and the fuel pump cant supply enough fuel, leaning out the engine allowing it to run much better. Confirming that it is TOO RICH at idle and part throttle.

2)We arent getting any signs of going too lean at upper RPM high load condtions.

I am wary of that pump supplying this motor, however my more important concern is the engine running TOO Rich at idle, fouling plugs, and stalling when dropped into gear, unless idle speed is set at 1700, so that idle remains above 900 rpm when shifted into gear. Get past these issues and ill start worrying of fuel starvation on high end.

What pump do you recommend then?

Ill get you some timing numbers shortly. Base timing is set at 4 degrees, what RPM would you like to know the timing at? Normal idle of 800-900, or high idle of 1700?

I have logically ruled out the cam, and or torque converter being the problem. Before the started the fuel Injection swap, truck ran great on flat ground. Idle was set at 700, and didnt stall when dropped into gear. Vacuum at idle then was over 18" just as it high now with Idle speed increased. I would love to have idle back at that RPM, however now with Fuel Injection, truck will stall at that RPM.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brian617

Which pin in the DLC connector is your serial data wire in? E or M?

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/i...1k8F4rkqJMgivQ

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Gotya, pulled it open again on the serial cable, pulling ALDL data from pin E. Pretty sure that is one problem, I need to be getting data from pin M, with the 8192 baud, newer ECM?

Can pin M and E be wired together, so that the cable will work with either?>

Attachment 6534

This is how the serial cable is wired. Instead the wire that goes to Pin E needs to go to pin M ?> Can E and M be wired together or do i need to use the two transistor method below?

Attachment 6535

Reset idle to 850, and re adjusted tps so it's back at .58v at idle all with iac closed.

Reset iac by running engine for 5 secs, off for 10 and then back on. Truck will hardly even stay running long enough to check timing. Timing at 20 degrees or so. About 1/4 advanced from end of scale. Last digit on scale is 16, plus 1/8" after plus the following 1/4".

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Originally Posted by 5cottymac

Can pin M and E be wired together, so that the cable will work with either?>

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Just pull the wire out of ALDL socket and put it in proper location.

Disagree on the pump. I put down 360 rwhp with my moded TPI and sprayed a 125 hp shot of nitrous and the fuel pressure never budged from 50 psi.

Since they are designed to run a much higher pressure then what everyone uses them for in TBI? That may be the case... but at 13-15 PSI they just don't supply enough fuel to keep up with more then a stock engine.

He's at 30 PSI for the newer BB TBI injectors... so it's a toss up, but I would watch pressure at WOT...

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Originally Posted by EagleMark

Just pull the wire out of ALDL socket and put it in proper location.

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No change, still no data stream

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EagleMark

Since they are designed to run a much higher pressure then what everyone uses them for in TBI? That may be the case... but at 13-15 PSI they just don't supply enough fuel to keep up with more then a stock engine.

He's at 30 PSI for the newer BB TBI injectors... so it's a toss up, but I would watch pressure at WOT...

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I'm too rich not only at idle, but throughout rpm range. My experience with working several different engines both on and off the dyno tells me this. The numbers I am getting are backing up my theory. The fouled plugs at idle also confirm this. The only way to improve the running quality is to open throttle blade so that idle is at 1700 rpm, reset tps to have .57-.59v at that throttle angle. This is leaning the motor out, making it run better on the high end, confirming the rich condition. I've got some video of the O2 sensor voltage i'll post when i figure out how to upload it. Dont know if i can host it here, or have to upload it to youtube and link it here.

Fuel Pressure never drops below 29psi and only does that for breif instances when trying to hold engine back with brakes in 2nd gear at WOT, and returns to 30psi within milliseconds. Only enough to see gauge flicker.

The only way to get this to idle somewhat smooth is to disconnect the Timing bypass tan wire and then the truck idles smooth as with Carb, and doesn't stall when shift in gear, but according to o2 sensor is still rich.

Here is an update with data from back probing the sensors:
Checked Map Sensor wiring, we have 5V accross two outside terminals with Key On
we have 4.9 volts on Map sensor signal wire with key on engine off.
we have 1.5-1.7 volts on map sensor signal wire engine idling.

Checked TPS wiring, 5V accross two outside terminals with key on,
.58 volts at closed throttle on signal wire
4.06 volts at wide open throttle on signal wire

Checked o2 sensor voltage, have .635 volts across purple and tan wires with sensor unplugged. key on, engine off
we have varying voltage that creeps up to .9 volts at idle, frequency of variation fairly low compare to 2k rpm reading
at 2000 rpm in park, O2 sensor voltage varies greatly but sweeps back and forth from .1 volts to .8-.9 volts but spends more time at higher voltage

with timing bypass wire unplugged, idle smooths out not stumbling and O2 sensor voltage stays hovering .78-.98 volts, doesnt stall when shifted into gear, and shows loop mode change by showing o2 voltage changing on higher requence between .2v and .8v

(video 1)http://youtu.be/T7F5SkMv9-c

with timing bypass plugged back in, battery disconnected to clear codes, idle erratic and stalls easily. at first startup o2 voltage hovers between .76 volts and .79 volts, then stalling

(video 2)http://youtu.be/8kUEN-ROaUs

re-cranked engine, and inital o2 voltage was .88 volts and hovered and crept up .998 volts and even showed 1.026 volts. when revved up to 2k rpm, voltage change frequency speeds up dramatically and shows fluctuation between .2 volts, and .9 volts, when dropped back to idle, o2 voltage shows over 1.0 volts and hovers between .998 and 1.056 volts.

(video 3)http://youtu.be/a0R1ROwrU6U



(Video 4) shows cranking the engine, and dropping it in and out of gear and shows the o2 voltage fluctuations while having to finesse throttle to keep engine from stalling

Video 4 http://youtu.be/mBfWXK_EgVM

Finally some data. Borrowed a scanner, and got this data. Couldn't get it to save on usb drive to upload file directly, still no luck with tunerpro.

I recorded the playback of the truck at idle.

http://youtu.be/jwvUvZLsQPs

What I see is obviously rich as BLM is at 105

IAC count is zero or one, turn the throttle screw out 1/2 turn

O2 is switching but hard to see a trend with out using graph mode

No spark retard or advance as rpm and map change.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brian617

What I see is obviously rich as BLM is at 105

IAC count is zero or one, turn the throttle screw out 1/2 turn

O2 is switching but hard to see a trend with out using graph mode

No spark retard or advance as rpm and map change.

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IAC is at zero b/c I set idle speed with IAC off, ECU is requesting idle at 720 rpms, but I have it at 1000 to keep from stalling. Im thinking I need to reset idle speed with Iac counts at 20?

here is the video with oxygen sensor graph.

http://youtu.be/-aEnICgHFUQ



Thanks Everyone

Honestly the o2 seems to be switching well. At idle it's hard to expect better switching than that on a TBI. But with your BLM at 105 it's either time to reduce fuel pressure or modify the VE table. The timing not moving also is another reason to dig in to the .bin and see what's going on.

Kicked an IGN malfunction code, IAC code and Map sensor voltage low code.
Swapped in old IGN module, and checked White EST wire for shorts to ground, or shorts to another wire, and it checks out with no resistance to pin at ECU.

Set minimum idle again as low as possible, and adjust TPS to have .75 volts at idle, IAC is now helping engine to idle, idle is still very irratic.

Cleared codes and Map sensor low voltage is no longer appearing, and here is most recent data stream from warm engine startup watching it switch into closed loop, and watching o2 values.

http://youtu.be/1M_gE8epq8U

sorry video is sideways, youtube apparently will not let me edit videos any more

here is idling in gear, shifted back to park, and then stalling

http://youtu.be/Af2Fi07bSjo

Here is playback of data taken while fuel pressure is down around 23-25psi. BLM stays at 102......:mad1:

http://youtu.be/Ko4IPDXvOYA

It's all just a guess without all the data to look at as in a TP data log.

You've got idle set by throttle blade min air screw (Not an idle RPM screw) and it does not match what ECM/PCM says idle should be... so Brian had mentioned no spark advance timing changes? I watched the last video and it's stuck at 14* advance... well yeah it's rich and stalls because it should be around 21 degrees. These PCM change timing a lot at idle! It's probably bottomed out, taking away timing as much as it is allowed in chip can to lower idle. Without proper timing control I wouldn't even worry about BLM or how rich it is, because there's no way for the PCM to raise timing to where it should be, so BLM are off!

Then there's still the original issue of trying to run a PCM that has different set's of fuel and spark tables for Idle and Off Idle and you have no VSS. Can't even see if you have a Park/Neutral switch set up without a log, this PCM needs one too! Along with many other parameters that need to be set for Idle and Off Idle. And you can't even burn a chip for any changes? Or get a TunerPro Data Log?

Lowering your fuel pressure to make Idle BLM go down... good idea... now what are you going to do when it runs out of fuel going down the highway at 70, or WOT, or pulling a trailer?

I understand your doing what you can with what you got! But it's all just a cheat to fixing it right and tuning it properly...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EagleMark

It's all just a guess without all the data to look at as in a TP data log.

You've got idle set by throttle blade min air screw (Not an idle RPM screw) and it does not match what ECM/PCM says idle should be... so Brian had mentioned no spark advance timing changes? I watched the last video and it's stuck at 14* advance... well yeah it's rich and stalls because it should be around 21 degrees. These PCM change timing a lot at idle! It's probably bottomed out, taking away timing as much as it is allowed in chip can to lower idle. Without proper timing control I wouldn't even worry about BLM or how rich it is, because there's no way for the PCM to raise timing to where it should be, so BLM are off!

Then there's still the original issue of trying to run a PCM that has different set's of fuel and spark tables for Idle and Off Idle and you have no VSS. Can't even see if you have a Park/Neutral switch set up without a log, this PCM needs one too! Along with many other parameters that need to be set for Idle and Off Idle. And you can't even burn a chip for any changes? Or get a TunerPro Data Log?

Lowering your fuel pressure to make Idle BLM go down... good idea... now what are you going to do when it runs out of fuel going down the highway at 70, or WOT, or pulling a trailer?

I understand your doing what you can with what you got! But it's all just a cheat to fixing it right and tuning it properly...

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Yeah, Idle is set by screw, and by setting tps sensor voltage at idle, If I don't, engine stalls. It makes spark advance changes at idle, it usually moves between 14-16 degrees at idle, except when the blm drops below 108 and it then stays on 14. In your other thread you note that different IGN modules have different timing curves, we changed module, and it did improve idle, but not much. So what is your suggestion on fixing the timing?

As far as different sets of tables at idle/off idle, shouldn't in theory closed loop be making an attempt to fix the rich issue?

And you are correct, I cannot get a tunerpro data log, or get tunerpro to pass any cable hooked to the computer. don't Bawk at that issue, instead why don't you spead your knowledge and suggest ways to try to fix the problem. Ive read every tutorial, beginners info, etc and still TP doesn't recognize any cable. Can I burn a chip or make changes? NO. If I payed howell for a chip, and can nail down that the problem is software related, its their problem to fix, not mine. I want to identify the problem before finding the appropriate solution. I'm not into fixing things with band aids, otherwise this thread would read : 454 rich, swapped injectors, used piggy MAP programmer, smaller injectors and rising FPR...." If I were to spend the money to have extra eproms, and buy a burner, I would first want software to work in my application, and its not. For the money I could spend on those items, the dollar amount is in the same ball park as running megasquirt, or the diy-efi flash conversion. Either way Tunerpro still is not working and will pass any cable I have hooked to either of two laptops. The only way TP will pass the cable test, is if you no cable hooked to laptop and test the Dell Laptop and select COM3 with nothing attached!!!!

As far as the scanner and what data is seen, I can see all of the transmission related data, I just highlighted what I thought was the pertinent data needed for most of these data stream logs. Pretty sure there is no NSS, considering before I started working on this, the only way to move the truck is crank it in gear, other wise it stalls when shifted into gear.

Lowering the fuel pressure is to try to fix the truck at IDLE!!! If it doesn't idle, I'm not even going to begin with how it runs on decent pulls with load. you said fuel pump was an issue and I then asked for an appropriate fuel pump suggestion?

Its an offroad rig, never sees 70 on highway, and the most it would see pulling anything is for a couple miles on a trail, but realistically pulling vehicles a matter of a hundred feet.

Thanks for bashing my attempt to try to help fix this rig,
but this is what constructive criticism looks like: ->>>

Why don't you offer suggestions to try to
1) help get tunerpro to recognize 1 of now 3 cables, on 2 different laptops? So that I can upload data log files?
2) Look at the data I have posted and make suggestions as to what appears to behaving correctly or incorrectly?

Those would both be a good start considering I can look at the data all day long, and can only interpret the data so much because I have no experience with looking at the data stream, or what the values I'm receiving mean.

I did try and get you going with TunerPro but you didn't have much luck and moved on.

What three cables do you have? Let's stick to one we know? Then I would start from scratch on installing it... FTDI drivers and cables are a real PIA lately and it seems to be because of a safety FTDI put into it's drivers to not work on counterfeit chips!

I also remember having cable issues awhile ago when WinALDL and TP was installed on same computer... but it was years ago?

Is your laptop up to date with all windows updates? IO Bit makes a good uninstaller along with there Advanced System care software in free version really cleans up a computer, could be the registry is just overloaded with crap. Lots of PCs I help people with have 3-4k issues when first run.

After that I'd start by removing all comm ports, then restart computer and let it install what computer needs, then pick lowest number Comm port available for the new cable installation.

If you do all that or it's done download TeamViewer and I'll try to fix it VIA remote desktop this afternoon?