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Need MORE help with TunerPro RT. Using Moates APU1 AutoProm on TBI Vortec. Went to emulate with ribbon cable to PCM with binary chip in APU1. Started and the engine runs, BUT Data Acq does not work. Says it is working but it is not. Don't know what is going on. Data Acq works with binary chip in PCM directly. Need suggestions. Please!
Need a step by step checklist to make certain the appropriate things are being done, in sequence to make certain that emulation can be performed with Data Acq and maybe data tracing. Still getting accustomed to TunerPro RT. Learning more each time trying to run the 454 TBI 350 Vortec on the engine run-in stand. Just got halted with Data Acq not working. Need HELP!
Using the APU1 as an Emulator (realtime changes)
The APU1 can be used as a real time chip emulator. It functions almost identically to the Ostrich/Ostrich2 products that we sell, using the same software and procedures.
- Make sure the APU1 is connected to your PC and has a COM port between 1 and 8
- Make sure there is nothing in the ZIF socket. Emulation will NOT work reliably unless the ZIF socket is empty!!!
- Make sure the outer horizontal switch is ‘towards the USB port’ position. (APU1 mode. Other position is passthrough mode, identical to ALDU1). Emulation software will NOT be able to connect to the AutoPROM unless this switch is set correctly!!!
- Fire up TunerPro RT or EmUtility software. Your APU1 should be recognized and you should be able to upload a tune to it.
- If the APU1 is not recognized by software, try moving the mode selection switch again. Verify the the USB is being recognized correctly.
From the Moates website http://support.moates.net/troublesho...apu1-autoprom/
Sure appreciate your posting suggestions. Did not know about item 2. The binary chip is in the ZIF socket. Somehow got the idea the chip needed to be there. Horizontal switch is set toward USB connection on APU1. As for item 1, with the binary chip in the PCM socket, the Data Acq works as it should. Will remove the chip from the ZIF socket, with TunerPro V5.x, the binary should auto load. The same for the ADX file and XDF files. With the Emulation working, is it possible to perform data tracing at the same time? Please advise. Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by sturgillbd
Usually you load your bin into the emulator, then enable emulation. When you open up the table or scalar and make a change, click update and the change is made realtime.
I have not tried data tracing while emulating yet. I toyed with data tracing a few months ago before I bought my Ostrich. Here is a guide for data tracing by EagleMark in the Tunerpro forum.
http://forum.tunerpro.net/viewtopic.php?t=2674
Hope this helps
Brian
TunerPro RT version 5.x automatically loads the most recent binary, ADX and XDF when it starts up. The binary image loaded in TunerPro and connected to the APU1 AutoProm via the USB connector and then from the APU1 through the ribbon cable to the socket in the PCM. The engine is running off the binary image file as communicated through this path to the PCM. When making changes to table, scalar etc. the image is changed in the binary image resident in RAM on the computer and the PCM. Once the altered binary image is finalized, it can be saved to an updated binary image file on the computer. I will try removing the chip with the binary image from the APU1, to see if this allows Data Acq in TunerPro.Quote:
Originally Posted by sturgillbd
Rolly
For some unknown reason, TunerPro on the laptop got corrupted. Tried to load the altered binary file and TunerPro would not allow it. Reloaded TunerPro and erased chip and reloaded with altered binary file. Will try this all tomorrow.Quote:
Originally Posted by sturgillbd
Rolly
Auto loading of last BIN, XDF, ADX (ADS) has happened since the days of V4, maybe even V3 (it's been so long since I've used V3 I don't recall all of the features and what has been added since). This is also a selectable feature that is adjusted (selected) in the preferences menu.
Data Acquisition works while emulating provided the switches are set correctly with the AutoProm. It sounds like you may not be uploading the bin file to the APU1, and without that loaded the ECM will be running on LHM (Limp Home Mode) and data logging will not work.
When you have the APU1 connected, and the hardware is found with the bin loaded that you want to run off, hit the up arrow next to the hardware detect button in the tool bar, this will upload the currently loaded bin to the APU1 (Or if connected an Ostrich). Enabling emulation is done by clicking on the blue EPROM button farther to the right on the tool bar. This will allow changes to be loaded as you make them to the APU1.
You also need to set the mask id byte to $AA to keep the ecm from verifying the checksum. I just looked back through your posts and you are running a 7427. Change the mask id from $0D or $0E to $AA in the bin to disable the checksum for emulation. Screenshot attached.
Brian
Yes, this too.. I always forget to mention it and sometimes when I try to emulate with a new set-up. lol This little step makes a world of difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by sturgillbd
Thanks for the expert advise. Still learning as I go with building experience. Just read your reply after running the 350 Vortec engine. Likely running on the Limp Home Mode. Need to build a written step by step procedure on what to do when running the engine, recording the data etc. Data acquisition (DA) just up and QUITS for some reason unknown to me. Then have to exit TunerPro and reload TunerPro, then toggle DA on then set recording on. Getting confused as to what steps to take when. Measured the resistance of the Knock Sensor and it reads approx 90 K ohms. Need to go to the parts store and get a new one and measure it before purchasing it. Check Engine Light on all the time when running. Called up the error list, and Knock Sensor is 1 of 2 showing up as being in error mode. The second error is the IAC which I have disconnected. Will reconnect, replace Knock Sensor and run the 350 Vortec again to see if things get better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Six_Shooter
Need to load bin file to buffer and then emulate from there. Will look for EPROM button on tool bar.
I keep trying to adjust for rich fuel at idle. Monitoring AFR with Innovate LM-1. At idle, BPW is 2.x+. Altered the idle VE table by 50% and still runs rich. Don't understand why. Is it because it is in Limp Home mode? How does one go about leaning out the idle? Ignition timing is another one that I cannot get a handle on. Maybe after replacing the Knock Sensor things will get more reasonable. Too many variables thrown into the mix just causes confusion as to what to do next.Quote:
Originally Posted by Six_Shooter
Are you sure you are in LHM? Something that could be affecting you is are you going closed loop? If the engine is in open loop, it doesn't use the VE table at all. Also, without IAC, it may indeed be rich. I know that you are getting high IAC counts, and a higher idle RPM than you desire, but that can be timing, a consequence of a large cam, or too much fuel. Concentrate on getting a data log, then look at what is happening, then adjust parameters. You say BPW is 2+, it may be too big, that is also something you may need to adjust, but don't get ahead of yourself. Only modify one thing, watch the change it makes, then move on to the next adjustment. If you see no change, put it back to the original value before changing something else. If you make changes keep a log of what you did and how it changed how the engine ran. That way, if you have to undo something, you know what you have changed.
In LHM, the EEPROM or Emulator could be completely disconnected from the ECM and run exactly the same. LHM runs off the redundant fuel device, the small IC in the '7747, and not the EEPROM.
If you are indeed in LHM, then no matter what you do with the bin, and emulation, you will never see a change.
Did you enable emulation by clicking on the blue EEPROM button? If so, did you disable checksum by changing the mask ID byte to AA? If the checksum is not disabled, then an ECM can revert to LHM even after being started if anything is changed in the bin.
A way around the checksum issue is to upload the entire bin when you make a change without enabling emulation.
To check for LHM, turn the ignition on and if the CEL (Check Engine Light) just comes on solid without a flash, then you are in LHM, if the CEL flickers quickly (and usually dimly) then you are in LHM. The CEL needs to flash, then stay on solid when the key is turned on to know that you are running off the EEPROM or emulator.
Regardless of the ECM being in closed or open loop, the VE table is ALWAYS used for fueling. Closed loop simply trims or adds fuel from the VE table (and other multipliers) in the final injector PW calculation.Quote:
Originally Posted by jim_in_dorris
Sorry Six, I was under the impression that in open loop it used the commanded AFR only while idling.
What is this about???Quote:
Originally Posted by jim_in_dorris
Thanks for the clarification. First, the narrow band Oxy sensor is disconnected. Second, the resistance of the knock sensor was 90Kohms+. Went to the auto parts store and spent another 50 bucks for a new sensor that measured 3.8Kohms which is what it should be. With the engine slightly cooled, removed the bad Knock Sensor and installed the new sensor. Reconnected the IAC motor, left the Oxy sensor disconnected, and ran the engine without the Laptop and TunerPro. The CEL comes on steady and likely in LHM mode. The battery and switched 12 volt input to the PCM are wired together. May need to run the battery input directly to the battery. This may have an effect on the CEL sequence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Six_Shooter
Have not gotten to enabling emulation nor getting out of LHM. Still learning with each engine run. Need to go back to the original unmodified binary file. Also need a test point on the Knock Sensor wire and Oxy sensor wire to check with a multi-meter. Many variables to get sorted out. Have a lot more questions than answers for them.
This statement sure makes good sense. The microprocessor needs at have the tables to process all the input variables in the proper manner to provide the appropriate outputs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Six_Shooter
Attached are test 1,2,3,4 xdl files of engine runs. test4 seems to be the best. At idle, PBW is 2.x+. Modified Mask from 0D to AA as suggested. This last run was uninterrupted by DA and TunerPro not quitting. Hooray. Some success. Now let the engine cool down some. OK when electric fan sucking air through the radiator. Once everything is shut down, engine temp soars to 200+ degrees F. Mechanical bourdon tube temp gauge is LH cylinder head. Still need to know what to do about the ignition timing. This last run, test4, at 2000+ RPM, ign timing as indicated on TunerPro gauge, fluctuates back and forth and is reflected in RPM indication also.
Attached are test 1,2,3,4 xdl files of engine runs. test4 seems to be the best. At idle, PBW is 2.x+. Modified Mask from 0D to AA as suggested. This last run was uninterrupted by DA and TunerPro not quitting. Hooray. Some success. Now let the engine cool down some. OK when electric fan sucking air through the radiator. Once everything is shut down, engine temp soars to 200+ degrees F. Mechanical bourdon tube temp gauge is LH cylinder head. Still need to know what to do about the ignition timing. This last run, test4, at 2000+ RPM, ign timing as indicated on TunerPro gauge, fluctuates back and forth and is reflected in RPM indication also.Quote:
Originally Posted by Six_Shooter
Forgot to mention, turning the power on to both switched +12vdc and battery +12vdc inputs, the CEL flashes one distinct flash and then goes steady on until the engine is started. Need to replay the recorded file now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Six_Shooter
Analysis of the test2 recording shows the timing and associated RPM excursion with the TPS remaining the same. Any suggestions regarding this? See attached.Quote:
Originally Posted by Six_Shooter
With you powering the constant and switched power at the same time will make it harder to start. I learned this lesson while testing my harness before actually routing it in the body. If you power both up at the same time, the IAC doesnt reset and go to the park position properly. As for the fluctuations in rpm etc, the pcm is trying to learn. If you warm it up and datalog, you can load the data in the spreadsheet and get the VE table closer. The ideal situation would be for the pcm to not have to make any correction for fuel. Real world is that it does... especially with weather changes but getting the ve table closer to ideal will help. I would set it up with a battery disconnect switch and an ignition switch on the test stand. My engine would surge with a constant throttle position until I got the VE table dialed in closer to what the engine was happy with. A test stand is not good for tuning. You have no real load on the engine, You can tune a few ve cells in the closed throttle table and not much more. You can also play with the idle spark to get the smoothest idle if your cam is other than stock. Actual tuning can only happen with varying the load and rpm.
Thanks ever so much for the comments. Just wanted to get the idle ignition timing proper and VE fuel to 14.7 to 16 AFR. Ideally, the leaner the better at idle so it will pass emissions without any difficulty. Its what comes out of the tailpipe that matters on emissions tests. Should be able to tune the idle to 16:1 AFR and still be running at a moderate RPM by tuning the ignition timing. Right now ignition timing on the TunerPro screen and what is actually seen with a timing light are two different things. Which should be done first, the ignition or the VE tables? I would guess the ignition, yet don't know how to fix the disparity between TunerPro PCM timing advance display and the actual timing light reading on the engine balancer. Does something need to be disabled to modify the PCM timing tables at idle to get a correlation between PCM timing advance display and actual timing light readings? PLEASE ADVISE. Still learning this tuning thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by sturgillbd
I will wire the battery hot input to the PCM separately to the battery to see if that fixes the IAC failure issue seen on the last engine run. This change should fix the power up sequencing for the PCM, especially IAC to park properly.
the iac is bottomed out trying to lower idle the car thinks its in drive as the park neutral switch mustnt be earthed commanding 500ish rpm idle in gear.when you did have the O2 plugged in it was real rich and pulling all the fuel out that it could
Trying to understand these statements in depth. Since there is no position feedback from the IAC, the binary file must throw in extra pulses to the IAC to make certain it is closed. Not yet certain whether the IAC motor itself is at fault or power up sequencing is not proper. Not certain that there is a single wire input to the PCM for the park neutral switch. Will have to investigate this. As far as the O2 sensor is concerned, right now it is disconnected so that the PCM cannot go closed loop.Quote:
Originally Posted by delcowizzid
You NEED to have the battery wire connected to the battery. There are certain things that happen AFTER the ignition is shut off that pertains to the IAC and other functions to ensure proper start up up the next time. Fix this first and foremost.
I'm not sure why you want to disable closed loop right now, but you can disable it in the bin by setting the closed loop enable temp to max.
There is a single wire input for the neutral safety switch that needs to see a ground to know that it is either in park or drive. IIRC when grounded the ECM thinks it's in park.
And if your commanded timing doesn't match actual we have to get back to basics before any tuning.
First you are going to want to follow the factory procedure and set base timing with either the est bypass wire disconnect or diagnostic port jumpered(I don't know the process for this ecu but the USA guys will) also make sure the spark reference setting in the bin matches weather it be 0 or 10 degrees or whatever the bin expects.
Then I would follow the factory base idle speed adjustment which normally involves forcing the ecu to fully close the iacand unplugging it and once again unplugging the est bypass/entering diagnostic mode and setting idle rpm to its base value with no iac or spark compensation modifying rpm.
Then plug the o2 back in and fire it back upland get a log while confirming commanded timing in the datastream matches actual crank degrees
Once the house keeping is finished and squared away tuning will be easier
It would help alot if you posted your .BIN file and the actual initial timing value you are running with the EST connector disconnected. Also post the datalog definition file you are running. It may be a problem between the .XDF you are using and the .ADX file.Quote:
Originally Posted by rsicard
For example if you have the initial timing set at 10* BTDC, have the .BIN file set at 0* your crank timing will read 10* higher with the timing light than the Tunerpro Datalog. If you have both the initial timing set at 10*, you .bin set at 10* and your .ADX has no compensation it would also read off. Post what you are using and maybe I can help shine some light on it.
Also just FYI, running lean will likely hurt your emissions. Your best bet is to keep it in the 14.2-14.7 range and pull about 6-8* of timing out of the test area. When you run it lean your mixture will not fully combust despite raised combustion temperatures and you will have a spike of unburned Hydrocarbons (HC) and Nitrogen Oxides.
Back when my old 83 G20 van still had the original quadrajet fed 305 in it, I used to block off the vacuum advance with a BB prior to the yearly smog test. It would easily pass with the timing retarded and almost always failed with the timing at factory spec.
In response to your suggestions, attached find the Binary, ADX, XDF and latest datalog files being used on 16197427 PCM on the 350 Vortec with 454 throttle body and supposed Cop Car injectors. Set the ignition timing to zero degrees on the balancer with a timing light with the one wire disconnected coming from the distributor to the PCM. Then reattached this wire. Used the timing light and saw the ignition timing retarded -10 degrees from zero degrees. Puzzling. Advance the throttle and the timing may go 10 degrees advanced yet the TunerPro screen says 20+ degrees advanced yet the strobed balancer says 10 degrees advanced. More puzzling. May have a defective spare 1 16197427 PCM?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast355
Also replaced the IAC motor with a new one after the log reported IAC fail. Last run (attached) after several minutes IAC went FAIL again. More puzzling. Again, possibly defective spare 1 PCM?
Will remove 16197427 PCM from my 1994 454 suburban and use it for testing after replacing the flash chip. Then record another session.
Also, using binary for TBI 350 Vortec. If you can shed some light on the situation and provide suggestions, that would be greatly appreciated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast355
Earlier in the thread, you asked about data tracing. I misunderstood what you were asking. I thought you were asking about data tracing (bubble tracing) not just data acquisition. Bubble tracing was what I posted the link to. I just replayed your datalog. Two things stood out that need to be addressed. Your data shows that you are pig rich. Do you have a vacuum leak? If not, what is your fuel pressure? The other thing that stands out is you are idling over 1000 RPM. Your IAC is at 0 counts and still your RPM is high. Have you performed a throttle blade adjustment (minimum air)? If the throttle blades are open too far, the IAC will bottom out trying to bring the idle down and will show a failure. First thing I would do is set the minimum air adjustment on the throttle body. There are several methods to do this. With the 7427, you cannot bridge the A and B terminal to close the IAC so you will have to adjust it down until the IAC takes some control of the idle. Shut off the ignition but leave the battery power wire connected. Restart and let the data show it is back in closed loop. Check the IAC counts. I usually aim for around 20 counts with the engine idling at the desired rpm. With your data showing that rich, you may have a surging idle until you get the idle ve adjusted. You have to make sure you have no vacuum leaks before adjusting the idle ve table though. You have to have the proper knock sensor installed and hooked up or you will be getting knock counts like you see in your log. The bin you posted is stock and you have not adjusted anything other than the Mask ID from 0D to AA.
Unable to find a ECM pin for a discrete for park or drive. Moved the battery input to the battery. Also replaced the IAC motor with new. Ran the engine, then something popped and now sounds like big vacuum leak. Took throttle body off, chunk of gasket gone. Filled the gap with Loctite 509 sealer. Also going to put in smaller injectors to see if the running rich situation gets any better. Smaller injectors are used so condition not known. Will run the engine again tomorrow morning. Debugging, debugging and so on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Six_Shooter
E5 should be the correct ECM pin for park/neutral on the '7427
Thanks much for the detailed response which are greatly appreciated. Will try to make certain there are NO VACUUM LEAKS. Understand being pig rich. Can see is on BPW. Changing out injectors for smaller ones and fixing a vacuum leak that just broke and made a lot of noise. Discovered chunk of gasket is gone. Patched with Loctite 509 sealant. Letting it set up and will run the engine again tomorrow. Also using another 16197427 ECM with the same binary file on Flash Chip. This is a 454 throttle body on a 4 barrel manifold with adapter plate. Manifold hogged out to accommodate 454 2 inch bores throttle body which has idle adjustment on vacuum actuator. Fabbed a bracket to replace vacuum actuator. Throttle plates are closing fairly tight at idle. Do have surging at 2000+ RPM, it is associated with ignition timing. The two go in unison. Ignition timing is screwed up. Set base timing with wire from distributor to ECM to zero degrees with timing light on balancer.Quote:
Originally Posted by sturgillbd
Went to a pin-out of the 16197427 ECM, and it says E5 is for the 4L80E trans Range C signal. If there is a more accurate Pin-Out of this ECM, would like to know where to get same. See attached.Quote:
Originally Posted by fastacton
If you look at this post, it shows to connect the 7747 park neutral wire to E5 when converting to the 7427. There's another post that goes into more detail, but it didn't come up in my quick search.
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...7+park+neutral
There 3 range signals from the transmission going to the 7427, different combinations of these 3 tell the ECM what gear the trans is in. Grounding only E5 tells it that it's in neutral. I don't think there's a wiring diagram that will tell you that, though.
Really want to say thanks for all the help.Quote:
Originally Posted by fastacton
Wow. You guys are WAAAAAY over my head...but maybe I can learn/u can help. I have a 1994 LT1 out of a trans am in my 1991 s/10 blazer....how I bought it. TONS of problems w optispark and LT1 so I bought tuner pro. The owner told me I also need to buy another $20 program...cant remember the name....tunercat maybe? I have no stickers on my pcm. Can u possibly help me with bin #s and the .adx and .xdf (i think?) Files and such? I would be very thankful. I hate bothering Mark....the owner of tunerpro. Thank u in advance!
Joe