Read these plugs?

Trying to figure out what is going on here... besides what looks like some oil in a new motor, well 10K on it. Has never run right since build and a chip from... well you know that ones that never run right.

Since the truck came with no knock sensor and the chip is in question he is mailing it to me. I'm really worried this is another 454SS timing table in a tow rig hauling 12k

Average picture looks like the other 7. Worst is one cylinder. Here's the build.

Truck is an 88 V30 crewcab dually.
Engine is a MK IV 454 out of 1987 one ton dually, bored .030 over with Eagle forged steel rotating assembly, 6.385 rods, 4.25 crankshaft, and 10.2:1 Keith Black pistons. Engine displacement is 489ci.
Comp Cams CB XM 270HR-12 camshaft.
Edelbrock 60479 aluminum heads, Comp cams retrofit roller lifters, pushrods, springs/locks and roller rockers.
Edelbrock 3764 TBI intake port matched to heads, no EGR.
CFM technologies ported throttle body with Extreme EFI AFPR and pressure gauge currently set to 16psi.
Westers garage flow matched fuel injectors. I don’t remember the injector numbers (I bought them Aug 2005).
Walbro 255 ltr high pressure pumps in both tanks.
Hedman Long tube headers with dual 2.5” exhaust.
Turbo 400 transmission.

Computer data:
SERV. NO. 1227747

wow thats running lean!

Yep,needs some fuel.
Looks like the ground strap has gotten pretty hot on the curve there as well?
Alot of buildup for 10k.
If it is a mailorder chip without data though the math is only as accurate as the info and application thereof.

White, black, oil, buildup? He's putting in a new set of plugs and O2 sensor for a re-read...

Data does not help at all on these chips as it's always perfect!
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...LMs-every-time!

who's the hack that burned the chip with the min/max BLMs set like that?

122/130 is doable when tuning, but it will take forever to correct a calibration that's running lean.

Holy crap,read the thread-is that the chip in this truck?

To translate into OBDII it means that the fuel trims were set to always read correctly regardless,as 128 is dead on?

Reminds me of back when I first started and didn't understand the computers much and wondering why I couldn't just set the stoich to 12.5:1 and just be done with fueling :)

This was a professional tuner as well?

122/130 limits allow a maximum of 1.56% fuel to be added due to O2 sensor correction or 4.69% allowed to be removed due to O2 correction.

So considering a good fuel trim on OBDII is 0 long term and +/- 5% short term than yeah.
Basically locked out long terms and set limits for short terms to only allow adjustment within specs,anymore than that won't show or get corrected thru tool.

If the person is calling themselves a professional tuner and purposefully doing that then they are both defrauding someone and being a moral bag of dicks.

Liars and thieves piss me off and this seems to be both at the expense of another's ignorance when they trusted the person as a business to get a job done.

I have no issue telling my customers what I know,don't know or can figure out or not.
When they still want my help, I find someone that does for them or do what I can within my scope.
And it's never about the money,it's about the hobby.


sorry bout the rant,too much coffee and been cooped up in house all day watching kid and ton of work piled up that I can't do but speeding thru my head.
busy and bored.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Playtoy_18

Holy crap,read the thread-is that the chip in this truck?

To translate into OBDII it means that the fuel trims were set to always read correctly regardless,as 128 is dead on?

Reminds me of back when I first started and didn't understand the computers much and wondering why I couldn't just set the stoich to 12.5:1 and just be done with fueling :)

This was a professional tuner as well?

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Yes 128 in OBDI is perfect like 0% trim in OBDII.

Not sure what is in this chip yet I have not received it. The other thread is what happens on third adjustment to a custom tune from TBIChips.com...

I'm sure I can make it run good, all the others were easy. I'm just spooked as I know what get's done to BB tow rigs and this one comes from factory with no knock sensor! Knock sensor retards constantly to max retard on other when towing. I've even got chips with retard taken out! When I get the chip I'll know more...

So back to spark plugs... WTF?

Some things are just hard to get right without being there. There's a ton of heavy black carbon inside the outer shell, deposits on the ground strap, and it appears there is oil on the outside of the shell on the second plug. It does look like oil burning. It also looks like the plugs might be the wrong heat range for this engine although that's hard to imagine looking at where the center electrode is in relation to the shell. The scary part is all the little chunks or balls stuck to the center electrode on the wet plug. Every time I've seen that it's been accompanied by melted piston parts. That line on the center electrode of the first plug, where it's dark above and light below, looks like the "timing line" you sometimes see on the center porcelain. If it is then the timing's too far advanced by quite a few degrees. And it needs fuel...

Is there a lead substitute additive being used? I see orange spots on one of the plugs. That additive can leave deposits on the ground side as well although it still looks like heavy oil burning on the one cylinder.

If the engine's damaged you'll get the same story pretty fast with a new set of plugs.

Is the engine owner going to try and add a knock sensor? Can we do leakdown tests?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 1project2many

The scary part is all the little chunks or balls stuck to the center electrode on the wet plug. Every time I've seen that it's been accompanied by melted piston parts. That line on the center electrode of the first plug, where it's dark above and light below, looks like the "timing line" you sometimes see on the center porcelain. If it is then the timing's too far advanced by quite a few degrees. And it needs fuel...

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I was waiting for someone to comment on the little chunks or balls stuck to the center electrode, I call them specs...

Unofficially... fly turds.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 1project2many

Unofficially... fly turds.

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thats what Grumpy called it in his plug cut write-up LOL

I think I would wait till he runs another set of plugs before trying to tune it, looks like the plugs are to hot an some where in the calibration it is rich washing the oil off the cylinders walls, how are you going to tune it without basic timming an fuel in a data log? what is on his chip may not be what it is on a data log?:mad1::mad1::mad1:

looks like the compression ratio self-correction mechanism is functional.

If he has the 75.5lb/hr injectors 16psi isn't nearly enough with that setup.

Yeah I saw that a long time ago... Supposed to be 80 lb/hr injectors matched set from Westers. He's have been way better off letting westers do the tune too! 80 lb injectors at 16 PSI should handle about 350 HP... problem is the engine is closer to 500 HP... :rolleye:

He's already confirmed the chip said 454 SS so I know it has way to much spark for hauling 12k... and it's always been 150 HP short on fuel.... with 7 plugs running lean and oil on rim and one showing signs of fly turds I think it's to late for a tune? Maybe after a quick rebuild and new pistons?

What saves most BB guys who overbuild is the peanut port heads. Once those are gone it doesn't take much to get out of the range of a 2bbl TBI. You could play with a 4BBL Holley setup or dual Rochester units but imo 500 HP is looking for a marine or aftermarket intake with a properly sized set of port injectors. Even the L29 intake doesn't really work well at that power level. BTDT.

Robert I like that, self control compression mechanisum ,ever one needs one of them.

Just have him get a compression and leakdown test done. If everything passes, crank the fuel pressure up to 26 psi or something and try again. I'd like to see what the IDC is at an idle with that amount of fuel pressure.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ony

Robert I like that, self control compression mechanisum ,ever one needs one of them.

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give it some time and that's exactly what it will do. at some point, it will either stop detonating(assuming advance doesn't keep getting bumped up) or form a rather large hole through the piston crown, assuming the pistons don't shatter from the detonation first.

Keith Black domed 10.5 to 1 compression pistons with the aluminum CCed heads is probably the only reason they are melting slowly and not shattering. That and the guy wanted a massive tow rig not a race car. The engine and cam is designed like an off shore race boat.

It hauls a lot but not very often, it's weekly purpose is hauling wood, farm work, etc...

Quote:

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Just have him get a compression and leakdown test done. If everything passes, crank the fuel pressure up to 26 psi or something and try again. I'd like to see what the IDC is at an idle with that amount of fuel pressure.

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IDC is almost the same as it is with 10 lbs, or 12 lbs, or 200 lbs. Self correction has been cut to less than 1/2 of what it should be. Don't play games trying to stretch fuel pressure. It's not the same as having properly sized injectors.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 1project2many

IDC is almost the same as it is with 10 lbs, or 12 lbs, or 200 lbs. Self correction has been cut to less than 1/2 of what it should be. Don't play games trying to stretch fuel pressure. It's not the same as having properly sized injectors.

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Did I mean PW when I said that?

Isn't the idea to keep it greater than 1.0ms?

This truck needs big injectors (or 4)

Well I wish this bin was only a 454 SS Spark Advance table! Add another 4-6 degrees!

Please explain why anyone would run a spark advance table that is more aggressive then a LT1 engine in a Tow Rig?

The last one we found just caused constant knock retard, but half the knock retard was also removed.

But this truck came from factory with no knock sensor...

You know, Mark, more timing equals more power. Always. What I want to know is how people can think this, yet when I say "then 100000 degrees must equal 100000 more hp" they don't get it.

Chevmasta, what I'm saying is that without adjusting the tune the ecm won't change the PW / IDC even if the injectors change because the tuner disables part of the self correction mechanism. The scantool reports everything is correct even though it's not.

The BLM in his chip was not raped! TowMaster chip has stock BLM/INT settings. That BLM Rape seems to be a third adjustment after data logs...

My bad. I thought you said it was disabled.

I had the towmaster chip from him.

As discussed, it appeared to me that what was sent was a spark map from a 454SS BAMY bin. However, in certain areas there's 4-6* more timing and very little fuel added anywhere.

My truck had 140 BLM's with a maxxed out KC at 255 and then it would start back over. And that was just highway cruising.....I never went more than half throttle i'd say......I knew something was wrong.
I still have the chip, but I refuse to even datalog with it as I worry about my engine.

I did like his "tow" settings with how the trans shifted later in the RPM band.

Got the chip in mail today... I do believe this one is worse! And no knock sensor in this truck, came from factory that way and shows in bin that way.

Plus EGR error 32 is off but EGR is still on, this vehicle has no EGR... so that makes it leaner...

Total spark advance 30.94 + Spark Slope of 6.16 + PE Spark of 3.16, so a total timing of 40.26 degrees! :yikes:

Nice!

poor truck doesn't stand a chance with that timing. My spark map looked really similar!

Truck needs way more fuel, way less timing and it's gonna run alot better. Get rid of his 3 second PE delay too. And all the EGR stuff. You know the drill.

Customer should be way happier with a few hours of logging and tuning. Even I could make this guy happy. LOL

I'm not sure he has enough pistons left to make him happy?

detonation: free compression reducer AND rotating mass reduction.

Reciprocating mass....

How to auto-compensate for the imbalance? Ah... switch to PFI and adjust injector size as needed.