no map value only map voltage when trying to make a history table

i'm trying to get a ve-rpm vs map history table created so i can get a base for a tune and the adx file doesn't have a value for MAP in kPa only map volts ... but it seems to have 2 map volt values that both show the same data

so i tried to take the second voltage value and under the conversion tab i multiplied it by 20 (in theory that was a acceptable constant) ...
but that theory doesn't seem to work as now that value returns nothing on the monitor screen ... although my history table is populating but only in the 100 kpa column

so i don't know where to go now ...

any direction/advice would be appreciated to get me to a solid starting point


Background:
i'm a complete newbie when it comes to tuning but i'm an it guy for a living so i understand the computer side and i was a gm tech for years before i went IT so i think i have the foundation to put this all together and i have burnt chips before ... i have a guy i bought a tuned bin from last year but i want to learn this for myself as i can see doing this alot with the 2 car race team we have

the ecm is an 16196285
the bin is a BMZX
i'm using a $36.xdf
and an A269.adx

the car is built for circle track (very not street legal) so data logging is somewhat of an issue ... as i cant take it on the street and drive it around ... but i am able to get logs just not under street conditions.

so i just dropped in a new motor ... mild stage one cam, very mild port work on the head, shaved 3 cc off the head, cometic .020 gasket, 1.6 ratio roller rockers ... so basically it breathes a little better and we upped the compression from 9:1 to a little over 10:1

current tune was a purchased bin ... (timing, EGR, limiters, PE thresh) ... built for the old stock engine not based on data logging

Tuning goals:
first:
i need to fix (as much as possible) the idle to wot lag ... the racing format we run has no yellow flags only red flag ... which means the restarts are from a dead stop ... as it is running right now when you stomp the throttle there is probably 3 seconds or more before it responds ... the problem here is she (my wife is the driver) will get run over (literally) on restarts with that delay ... the stock motor didn't have such a long delay

second:
get as much power out of it as i can under the specific set of circumstances we run under ... 1/4 asphalt oval ... so 2 330' drag strips with turns between them lol
a normal lap consists of coming out of the corner easing on the throttle from the 1/3 way point to the 3/4 point then WOT from 3/4 to the braking zone of the next corner ... repeat

you have the right approach.

post your modified adx and we can tell you what you've done wrong. You probably just did something to the formula

also that delay off idle is either going to be corrected with spark or fuel. try a bit of each and see how it responds, this will likely be by feel and logging won't help much

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get as much power out of it as i can under the specific set of circumstances we run under ... 1/4 asphalt oval ... so 2 330' drag strips with turns between them lol
a normal lap consists of coming out of the corner easing on the throttle from the 1/3 way point to the 3/4 point then WOT from 3/4 to the braking zone of the next corner

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I'm sure you've found some of the posts from the serious 2.2 guys on j-body. The 2.2 will do good things with the right tuning and modifications. The later OBDII injectors and manifold can be used with the '95 pcm although the long runner, plastic manifold is not the best choice for top end power imo. I'd open up the bottom feed manifold and install more traditional top feed injectors instead. Increase plenum displacement to about 1.5X engine displacement, and if you really want to get trick you'll build a new upper plenum that accepts a larger TB.

You want to set the pcm to be in PE mode as often as possible. IIRC the '95 cals have a fair amount of PE enable delay built in. AE should increase as well although you are going to want to increase fuel pressure before making any changes to the tune. Here's a link to a list of injectors that will fit directly into the stock intake. http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...6&d=1344522961 If you look at the current flow and max pressure for the stock injector (about 16 lbs/hr) you can see there's a little room to grow. Max flow at 72.5 psi ends up around 21 lbs/hr.

steveo the modded adx is attached

yea i'm worried about adding too much spark as ill only be able to see knock in park ...

i'm also used to being able to see more info with the logging from the other car which is obd2 (2000 cav 2.4 dohc)
so i'm having a hard time figuring out exactly what tables to make some of the changes i want

example i have these 3 tables
VE vs RPM vs MAP - Single fire
VE vs RPM vs MAP - Double fire
VE vs RPM vs MAP - Ext.RPM (i believe its an extension of the double fire as far as the values go)

values range from 52 to 95 ... is this the injector PW? (the single fire table goes to 95 so that doesn't sound right) knowing exactly what the value means would probably make this all click for me
also single fire vs double fire ... i dont see a scalar that relates to it so when and why does it switch between these 2 tables?

i also have some "launch mode" scalars that i wish i knew what they did
i think i need a table reading 101 class =)


1project2many yes i have learned alot from a select group over at j-body ... but most of the tuners are obd2 running hptune so there wasn't alot on this aspect over there

as far as our rules go i cant do anything that doesn't look stock without getting dq'ed ... new owners at the track and new tech team for this year ... so the custom upper is not really an option till we feel out how tech will be

i'm thinking the trade off between the long runner and the larger tb that can be put on it still makes it worth it for our application as we never top out the motor on this track, and the bonus of the top feed injectors

my original plan was a 12.5:1 compression 2.2 with the 98 long runner manifold and larger tb ... which i have 3/4 of the parts to build but ran outta time when the first set of forged pistons were undersize ... 2 weeks to opening day as of today

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Originally Posted by 1project2many

You want to set the pcm to be in PE mode as often as possible. IIRC the '95 cals have a fair amount of PE enable delay built in. AE should increase as well although you are going to want to increase fuel pressure before making any changes to the tune. Here's a link to a list of injectors that will fit directly into the stock intake. http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...6&d=1344522961 If you look at the current flow and max pressure for the stock injector (about 16 lbs/hr) you can see there's a little room to grow. Max flow at 72.5 psi ends up around 21 lbs/hr.

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the bin i purchased was supposed to bring the delay down and get us in pe more ... but again i need a table definition 101 class
the "PE Delay Hi/Lo Baro Threshold" is set to 87 kPa (same as stock bin), the "PE Delay Bypass RPM Threshold" is set to 0 (stock bin was 3300) there are about 4 AE tables ... just not sure what each actually does

i wish i had known about that injector spread sheet 2 weeks ago ... one of my sponsors is a carb/injector cleaning place and just gave me a brand new set of stock injectors last friday for the motor so i'm kind of stuck with them for this season ... but fuel delivery is above average ... aftermarket pump larger feed line but stock (brand new) regulator

i should edit my tuning goals as i don't need to get every last drop of power out of it now ... more of learning the ability to get all the power out of it to be applied when necessary ... my wife is my driver for this car so i do wanna hold back a lil lol

but you gave me some cool ideas for next year ... do all those injectors in that list really fit in this manifold? .... i'm so kicking myself now lol

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yea i'm worried about adding too much spark as ill only be able to see knock in park ...

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sounds like you think only a knock sensor can detect knock; that's not the case, in fact you can't rely on them to detect all knock anyways,

plug chops, listening and feeling what the car is doing gives you a good indication of when you push it too far

in general adding a bunch o spark at a bit lower loads for experimentation wont break anything in the short term, spark at high loads is what can melt holes in stuff.

looked at your ADX

you took a formula that was X * 0.019600 and changed it to X * 20

that wont work, you need to keep the 0.019600

your incoming data (X) on such an 8 bit variable is ranged 0-255

to convert it to 0-5v it uses * 0.019600 (see, 255*0.019600=4.998).

since we're assuming 0v=0kpa and 5v=5kpa (this may not be true? does 0v actually equal 0kpa?) you need to use X*0.019600*20 to go from RAW (X) to VOLTS to ACTUAL

give 'er a shot

edit: you can also apply static vacuum with a hand operated vacuum pump and calibrate it to real-world values, just change your multipler and maybe use an adder to get it right

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Originally Posted by steveo

sounds like you think only a knock sensor can detect knock; that's not the case, in fact you can't rely on them to detect all knock anyways,

plug chops, listening and feeling what the car is doing gives you a good indication of when you push it too far

in general adding a bunch o spark at a bit lower loads for experimentation wont break anything in the short term, spark at high loads is what can melt holes in stuff.

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one of the issues here is i wont be driving the car and getting accurate data from the "driver" isnt an option lol
so other than the what i can hear over basically open exhaust with an untrained ear ... i'm kinda stuck with the inaccurate knock sensor

i don't have the ability to throw in a tune and test, whatever i throw in has to last 100 laps cause, she has driven 30 laps on a spun bearing before and said "i didn't hear anything strange" so i have to err on the side of safety here

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Originally Posted by steveo

looked at your ADX

you took a formula that was X * 0.019600 and changed it to X * 20

that wont work, you need to keep the 0.019600

your incoming data (X) on such an 8 bit variable is ranged 0-255

to convert it to 0-5v it uses * 0.019600 (see, 255*0.019600=4.998).

since we're assuming 0v=0kpa and 5v=5kpa (this may not be true? does 0v actually equal 0kpa?) you need to use X*0.019600*20 to go from RAW (X) to VOLTS to ACTUAL

give 'er a shot

edit: you can also apply static vacuum with a hand operated vacuum pump and calibrate it to real-world values, just change your multipler and maybe use an adder to get it right

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got ya ... so i needed the conversion to voltage then i can multiply by 20
i figured 0v was 0kPa and 5v would be 100kPa which is how i came up with the 20 as a multiplier

i will test this first thing in the morning

thank you muchly

Yes, the injectors really fit. I was very lucky and noticed that Delphi posted a *lot* of technical details for their injectors in the early years of the company. I copied everything I could get. I ran four TBI injectors in a 2.2 pfi manifold with a turbo for several years and it worked well for me.

You need to spend time looking through archives at j-body. Most of the best discussion was in the performance forum and second gen forum. The tuning forum wasn't even around when I started over there.

Single fire mode pulses the injectors half as often but with twice the pulse. Double fire is normal operation, two pulse per crank revolution. There are settings that could be adjusted to disable single fire mode and there should be a bit in the data stream to indicate which mode the pcm is using.

PE delay is what usually prevents quick PE entry. Zero is a good number for the bypass rpm value.

I don't remember what tables are in that ecm for AE. They usually include a time vs angle, a multiplier vs temp and a multiplier vs RPM. Those can by tricky to work out. I usually end up with different values than original... I won't promise but I'll try to fire up my old machine today and look at the disassemblies and notes that I have on the 95 ecm.

Is the car manual or auto equipped? With auto you can at least sit in the parking lot and load the drivetrain to see if your changes are making a difference. With manual you really need a place to drive and log.

Datalogging during the race is a good idea. If a generic scantool will read data from that ecm I'd look at some of the plug in datalogger boxes that have built in memory. Get a better one and it will have GPS data as well. Some even have wireless transmission ability although I'm not sure how good the signal is.

Remember that there needs to be a balance of fuel and air at all times. With AE I look for a "pop" which usually indicates a lean condition and a sog plus black smoke which indicates a rich condition. I start by trying to get the steady state right then moving to the AE although that may be much harder with your car. If the plenum is still stock

Here's something to think of while you're working out the kinks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYi_BXnyFwQ

So I'm thinking I may try and grab some referbed tbi Injectors and give that a shot when we get a break in the season

but on that note I would need to raise rail pressure and still look stock ... An aftermarket adjustable reg probably isn't gonna fly

so I'm thinking of how the stock one works ... It's hooked up to a vaccum line so my thought is under load (low vaccum) the fuel pressure should be higher so if my theory is correct I unhook the vaccum line to the reg and it should sit at max pressure all the time?

or did i miss the target on that?

And subsequently more pressure at the stock injector will provide a little more flow ... Within mechanical restrictions.

The car is a a 3 speed auto ... I know not the best option ... I do have 2 of the 4 speeds sitting here but hesitated to swap due to thinking I need to swap to the odb2 computer ... Our other car is a 2000 with the 2.4 and the 4spd

so I can do that part ... But the lean pop you speak of is on throttle release? If so I defiantly get that more often then not ... And should I fix that through the ae tables, or tweak the ve tables first and fine tune in ae after?


I'm trying to figure out a mini Windows PC that I can actually run tunerpro on and mount it in the car for logging
i can do a Linux box like a raspberry Pi but haven't found any logging software for Linux ... Also thought about a droid os running aldldroid but I don't know it's capibilitys yet as I haven't had the time to play with it



so much to do and try so little time lol

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i can do a Linux box like a raspberry Pi but haven't found any logging software for Linux

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i wrote this https://github.com/resfilter/aldl, it works well if you have the time to set it up (and maybe know a little c), but its old and unmaintained, and would definitely take quite a bit of work. you'd have to write your own definition by hand, and maybe even recompile it so it makes the appropriate queries. perhaps not a great idea for a beginner. on the plus side, it's designed to be hands free and unattended (you run it on boot, and it maintains a connection and logs whenever possible)

tunerpro will run alright on linux under wine, but of course not with a raspberry pi, since it's arm based, and setting it up to auto-log on startup, persistently maintain a connection, stuff like that is really hard.

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Also thought about a droid os running aldldroid but I don't know it's capibilitys yet as I haven't had the time to play with it

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that with a cheapo tablet would probably be your best option, you can take its logs and analyze them later on your pc, it could also be your dashboard..

well i don't have much of an update as we had beautiful weather this weekend so i spent most of it painting the 2 racecars ... have one more color to shoot tomorrow morning then i'll be back on tuning this motor

i did try and get some rpm vs map history tables today and my diy adld cable just refused to connect today, no idea what happened as it worked perfectly all last week ... it connected for a sec i heard the solenoids kick when i put it in monitor then it froze and i could never connect again ... i even tried completely rebuilding the cable with no luck

but hopefully the usb adld cable i ordered will arrive tomorrow

at the moment my plan is to get the history table via dataloging then edit the rpm vs map ve table ... the question is do i change the table to match the history table or go like 1/2 to the history values and log again ... rinse repeat ... till the tables almost match, and then see if my idle to wot lag improves

if it does improve but isn't perfect i thought i would go to the AE tables but i'm a little foggy on if the ae tables do what i'm thinking they do

AE multiplier vs speed - MPH values of 0 to 40 mph - multiplier of .25 for all cells ... to me this in theory is used to cut the ae depending on how fast your going

AE Delta TPS pulse vs Delta TPS - Delta TPS values from 0 to 50 - msec values from .7 to 5.9 - is this an adder table that would add pulse width to the injectors based on the delta in tps?

AE Delta TPS factor vs vacuum - kpa values from 0 to 80 - multiplier values from 1 to 1.99 - i gather this is just the multiplier based on vacuum ... but all values other than 0 are 1.99 so it basically just doubles the injector pulse width (i know there are other calculations in there that may not end up in a full doubling)

AE delta map pulse width vs delta map - kpa values 0 to 80 - msec values all 0 - is this an adder table that would add pulse width to the injectors based on the delta in map? what exactly is the map pulse width ... is that the raw data from the map sensor? before conversion to kpa?

(Scalar) AE enable Delta map threshold - value 11.83 kpa - assuming this enables AE based on a 11.83 kPa change in map pressure

(Scalar) AE enable Delta TPS threshold - value 1.56 %TPS - assuming this enables AE based on a 1.56 % change in TPS - that number seems low to me though

does AE enable only when the values of both scalars are met?

am i on the right track here?

so my whole problem turned out to be a bad injector

she was only running on 3 cylinders

i pulled the plugs to do a compression test and saw one plug was clean and looked brand new ... troubleshot from there to find the bad injector

never thought of them cause they were brand new ... live and learn