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View Full Version : Best BIN for runing 1.5 L 4 cylinder



POZE
03-18-2012, 07:16 AM
I have been working on an MG Midget (Don't Laugh ) that I have installed TBI from 1991 S-10 2.5 VIN A $94,ASWY calibration. I have IAC,and VSS included in the setup. These engines never ran good and I know when this calibration is correct it will run great (And also some guys bet me I couldn't do it). The engine is rebuilt because I didn't want to chase a proper calibration without a good base. The engine is running and I have adjusted to get a good cold start and idle. The engine likes 13-13.5 AFR for a nice idle. I have the ecm also controlling the cooling fan. I have not figured out data logging yet with TPro. I have Moats autoprom and innovate LM2 WB. Have both NB and WB in the exhaust.

I noticed the 747 with $42 can run a 4 cylinder TBI and has the ability to disable CL at idle and that will cure the idle quality problem. Also the $42 has allot more tuning information and tools available for the VE.
Another option is adding the NVRAM to my 165 ECM for the self tune capability.

Any thoughts about these options would be great.

1project2many
03-18-2012, 10:17 AM
Howdy! Congrats on getting to this point. My very first efi retrofit was done for the exact same reason. Before I knew it I was so committed to the project I couldn't turn back. But one of the problems with asking questions like this on a good tech forum is they might try to redesign your system. :)

So, with that in mind, I'm going to start by suggesting some changes. The throttle body you're using probably seems small, but within it's family it's actually large. If you can locate a throttle body from a Pontiac 2.0 tbi or even a 1988 Lemans Aerocoupe TBI you'll get an even smaller diameter throttle bore. And with TBI, especially on an older engine, you'll help driveability if you can keep intake air velocity higher.

Next consideration is the injector. At 59 lb/hr, the 2.5 injector, like the TB it's mounted in, might be a bit large for the engine. You need to be careful that the minimum commanded injector on time is not smaller than what the injector is capable of performing and with the low pressure of TBI you don't have the option of reducing pressure to compensate for too large an injector. The 2.0 Pontiac TB mentioned above originally came with a slightly smaller injector at 56 lbs/hr. The Aerocoupe mentioned above had a 1.6 liter engine and was equipped with a 42 lb injector which seems a better choice. My preference though would be to select an injector from either a 1991-1994 Saturn with TBI 1.9 or a 95-96 G van with 454 TBI. Both of these injectors flow almost the same amount of fuel (58lbs/hr) at almost the same fuel pressure (30.5 and and 29 psi respectively). Turning fuel pressure down to 20 psi reduces fuel delivery to about 43 lbs/hr and the higher pressure will tend to provide better atomization for better overall engine performance. However you might need a different fuel pump to run pressure above standard TBI level.

With that said, the 165 ecm has a huge advantage over the 7747 in terms of ALDL data speed. Tuning the older 7747 often requires the use of external tools as the ALDL data is so slow to update. If you were designing from stage one you could select the 7727 / 7730 ecm and use a calibration from a 91-92 Lumina 2.5 TBI to get an even later generation of ecm but since the 165 is in place I'd probably stick with that.

As far as the best .bin goes, there probably aren't a lot of options. If you reduce fuel delivery through injector change you might find the stock 2.5 calibration is a better match than with the current injector. But you're still likely to need a fair amount of tuning. I would be surprised if you're going to need open loop at idle but it can be effected in $94 either through modification of existing variables or through some code changes. If you can get the distributor curves for the MG that might give you a guideline for a spark table for the old engine but in the enfd you'll find the ecm can give a much more tailored curve than the old vacuum + mechanical advance systems.

Good luck. When this is done you'll show those guys a thing or two!

RobertISaar
03-18-2012, 11:05 AM
this build sounds familiar. :thumbsup:

EagleMark
03-18-2012, 11:13 AM
Cool project would like to see some pictures when you have time.

When you say you have IAC and VSS... you also have MAP, CTS, TPS and obviously O2 sensors as well correct?

You've got some great tuning equipment and will be able to do all you need with it. I'm sure there's a work around for open loop idle there somewhere. May be able to play with stoich setting and possibly O2 swing points if that engine will really not run 14.7 to 1 AFR. Could be timing setting as well. Have to disconnect timing wire and set to 0 on most is stock, but modified engines sometimes like more! But in your bin file is Initial Base timing and that has to match where you set your distributor.

What did you do for timing control on that engine?

I just looked at a different XDF file I had which was bigger then one posted in $94 1227165 section and added it along with an ADX that I added some dash boards, monitors and item lists to get you going on recording data to TunerPro with your AutoProm. When you open the dashboards and monitors just right click on them and choose what you want there. Look for $94-1227165-V1 xdf and adx here:
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?370-1227165-ECM-Information-94

1project2many has some good advice and I tend to listen when he says something. But for now you may want to look for the Injector size BPW spreadsheet and do some calculations with injector size, Cubic Inch and pressure and come up with a new BPW/BPC to start the tune with. Then when recording data in closed loop you can use BLM to adjust fuel. Or adjust fuel via the wide band to get your fueling in order. It is a good idea to use factory timing settings for a conversion engine to start but the ECM has lots of other things that play with total advance at engine, so have to learn your system. You'll find a lot of calculators and spreadsheets here. Ones I use are close to end...
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?170-Injector-size-vs-HP-pressure-math-needed

Hope that helps get you going, let us know what/where you need help?

93V8S10
03-18-2012, 12:08 PM
Cool Project!

What year is you Midget? I used to own a 1969, but had to sell it years ago.

POZE
03-18-2012, 12:33 PM
Thanks to all.
I have an adapter to replace the variable venturi with a fuel injector so the original carb becomes a throttle body. I had closed throttle VEs in the 30s with 12 psi fp to get 14.7. I did not change the bpw constant setting of 134. The idle at 14.7 wasn't perfectly smooth like it was at 13:1. I played allot with timing to try for smoother idle at 14:7. I ran smoke machine to look for vac leaks.
I modified the gm dist to work and use 5 deg. timing that is in the scaler. Also using GM alt.
I will continue with this setup knowing you guys can lead me through OL idle. I will look at the XDF and ADX.
So I need to increase the fuel pressure closer to 20?
Will post pictures soon

EagleMark
03-18-2012, 12:38 PM
I'd have to say that is the first time I have seen that done with an injector in a conversion! :thumbsup: You'll be great around here as we try to think outside the box when possible.

Gotta have a TPS! And MAP!

1project2many was saying a differant injector with differant pressure, not the one you have.

POZE
03-18-2012, 12:45 PM
The MG is 1978. I like the older chrome bumper cars better but this car came along and it's hard to find rust free original cars in northwest Ohio.
I know this looks like a mess under the hood oops no hood.20142015

POZE
03-18-2012, 12:48 PM
I have the TPS and Map. I can't take credit for the TPS bracket and injector adapter. They came from Patton Machine.

1project2many
03-18-2012, 01:30 PM
Even OE engines often require some "fiddling" to make them run well at idle in closed loop. Cam specs can play a big part in this. If you're going to go open loop, and you don't have a cat, you can go open loop "everywhere."

I didn't say turn the fuel pressure up to 20 psi. I said using the 454 injector and adjusting pressure to 20 psi gives about 43 lbs per hour of fuel delivery. If you increase pressure in your current injector to 20 psi you'll increase flow by 24%.

Watching VE is only one step to ensuring the injectors will work. You need to look at the minimum IPW value in the calibration then watch to see if the commanded IPW on the ALDL is matching that value. If so then there's a good chance the injector is too big.

Mark, his injector constant would have to be reduced by almost 60%. That's a big adjustment.

EagleMark
03-18-2012, 01:50 PM
Mark, his injector constant would have to be reduced by almost 60%. That's a big adjustment.I didn't do the math but yeah that's pretty big. Glad I did cover my butt and said when 1project2many says something I listen... In the end correct injector size, correct fuel pressure, correct CID in calculater will give correct BPC to start tuning.

here's a list of TBI injectors, note some 4.3L came with 2 differant size injectors and I don't know the size of them when differant.
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?81-GM-Injector-size-color-and-part-numbers

POZE
03-18-2012, 03:35 PM
I will replace the injector. Darn that was a new Delphi.
Should I buy the LeMans 1.6 injector? I know you mentioned several different ones.
I don't recall a minimum IPW in the calibration. What am I missing?
I prefer CL and a cat. The cat most likely won't happen.

EagleMark
03-18-2012, 05:23 PM
I think 1project2many was giving examples on single barrel injector sizes because his pounds per hour are way off what we have in the injector specs which are all 2 barrel?
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?81-GM-Injector-size-color-and-part-numbers

2.8L and 3.1L are two barrel and have 33lb injector which might be closer to what your looking for and easier to find at JY, then service it for under $20 and your way cheaper then a new one, but from what he was saying closer to 59lb so one injector from a 5.7L 2 barrel is 61lb or 5.0L 50 pound...

I don't know your bore and stroke but was playing with the injector sizing BPW spreadsheet and looks like the 33lb at 14psi gives a BPW/BPC/IPW of 137 which is real close to stock BPW of these ECM.

Six_Shooter
03-18-2012, 06:26 PM
Some of these pictures make me almost want to put a carb intake back on my 240Z, and run some modified flat top carbs I just got today.... almost.

POZE
03-18-2012, 06:29 PM
I looked at the 2.8 and 3.1 injectors and they are the big size injector that will not fit my adapter. The LeMans injector might be the best choice. I think what I need is a 700 series injector to fit the adapter.
When I change the BPC what are the other required changes? BPC vs Vacuum, etc?
The bore is 2.9 and stroke is 3.44. Almost the stroke of a 350. I have heard these were tractor engines before they were MG engines.

EagleMark
03-18-2012, 07:19 PM
Some of these pictures make me almost want to put a carb intake back on my 240Z, and run some modified flat top carbs I just got today.... almost.Your just bored cause your car is done and running good, not to mention one of the coolest conversions ever done! You need another car... I have a 7747 truck, LT1 car and finishing a 16197427 conversion so I have everthing covered except I need a turbo or supercharged car to play with! :jfj:


I looked at the 2.8 and 3.1 injectors and they are the big size injector that will not fit my adapter. The LeMans injector might be the best choice. I think what I need is a 700 series injector to fit the adapter.
When I change the BPC what are the other required changes? BPC vs Vacuum, etc?
The bore is 2.9 and stroke is 3.44. Almost the stroke of a 350. I have heard these were tractor engines before they were MG engines. Oh. I see the injectors are differant... we'll wait and see what 1project2mqany has to say, or go back and read his first recomendation since he's been in this boat before.

BTW SWEET distributor conversion! I did this on an IH engine about 10 years ago and have made many since then.
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?21-Building-a-GM-EFI-Small-Cap-Distributor-for-TBI-Conversions

EagleMark
03-18-2012, 07:22 PM
What is the size of injector you have?

POZE
03-18-2012, 07:29 PM
It's 59 lbs hr from an S-10 2.5

1project2many
03-18-2012, 07:37 PM
Yeah, the "old" generation of TBI injectors are a different size and won't fit the adapter you've got. You're right: The injector you need comes from a model 700 TBI or from the truck TBI with governor (http://www.ebay.com/itm/GM-CHEVY-366-427-ENGINE-REBUILDABLE-ROCHESTER-TBI-CARBURETOR-CORE-1991-97-15383-/190654336719?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item2c63e24ecf). If your fuel pump will handle it, buy the 454 injector and run it at 20 psi. If there are any doubts about the pump or if changing fuel pressure is going to be a challenge, buy the LeMans injector. Delphi part no for the 454 injector is FJ10485 and for the Lemans is FJ10040. I'd expect to pay $40-$50 for the 454 injector and at least double that for the LeMans injector.

I'd start by setting just the BPC and going from there. I believe you'll find the VE values will need adjusting again because you had the wrong injector constant to begin with. I usually scale the BPC based on the changes to engine size and injector flow. New displacement / old displacement * constant, new flow / old flow * constant. If you multiply the current constant by .438 it should be close enough.

That's a very large stroke. You might find yourself pulling a bunch of timing

EagleMark
03-18-2012, 07:40 PM
Hmmm? That comes out to BPW of 75 at 13 PSI, which is pretty low... I don't know if that is beyond what the ECM is capable of? Also would support 100HP if that engine is close to that?

I know that a stock TBI engine runs so much better at 13 PSI then within GM specs of 9 to 13... higher pressure does atomize fuel better. Need to look at min air adjust too! Just enough throttle opening so IAC has some control over idle. IAC count of 20ish is good...

EagleMark
03-18-2012, 07:43 PM
I've seen those small injectors on a big block TBI base in a 366 industrial engine.

RobertISaar
03-18-2012, 07:45 PM
BPC can be set anywhere from 1 to 255 and it will still work as intended.

i'm a fan of the higher pressure route.

1project2many
03-18-2012, 08:05 PM
Holley sells an injector pod for the small injectors to mount in the pickup truck TB. Folks work real hard to get a couple of extra MM of throttle diameter in there then leave those honkin' big injectors hanging over the bore on top. I'd go with the small ones myself. Tried finding the part nos for the small 366/427 injectors but not much luck. I dunno why I don't have them saved here.

BPW can go small, but it's good to make sure injector can deliver small PW correctly. A timing light aimed at the injector is another good way to make sure the injector is working correctly. I wouldn't expect trouble with these injectors in this application, especially if the injector pressure can be dialed down.

POZE
03-18-2012, 08:09 PM
Excel says BPC of 106 to run the LeMans 42# injector on my engine. I have a 55HP engine.
If I change the BPC to 106 from 134 in the stock bin, does BPC Vs Vacuum and BPC Multiplier Vs MAT need to be changed the same percentage?

Six_Shooter
03-18-2012, 08:19 PM
Your just bored cause your car is done and running good, not to mention one of the coolest conversions ever done! You need another car... I have a 7747 truck, LT1 car and finishing a 16197427 conversion so I have everthing covered except I need a turbo or supercharged car to play with! :jfj:

Believe me, I have MORE than enough projects on the go...

Are we looking for larger injector or a smaller injector?

Can the 700 series injector not be adjusted like the larger TBI injectors? It's been a while since I've looked at one.

EagleMark
03-18-2012, 08:56 PM
Excel says BPC of 106 to run the LeMans 42# injector on my engine. I have a 55HP engine.
If I change the BPC to 106 from 134 in the stock bin, does BPC Vs Vacuum and BPC Multiplier Vs MAT need to be changed the same percentage?Looking at all the paremeters with BPC they are all multipliers so no. Except for "Base Pulse Constant Vs. Vacuum" seems to be BPC numbers used to cover idle and decel. Nothing for 50 to 100 KPA MAP.

Since Robert says the BPC can be adjusted low and everyone likes higher pressure, you may want to add a little pressure to just 14-15 and do your calculations. How are you controling fuel presure? Since no TBI unit?

EagleMark
03-18-2012, 08:59 PM
Tried finding the part nos for the small 366/427 injectors but not much luck. I dunno why I don't have them saved here.
.Would you send me the injector numbers and lbs pr/hr for those single injectors you do have? I will add them to the list.

1project2many
03-19-2012, 03:32 AM
Excel says BPC of 106 to run the LeMans 42# injector on my engine.

It does? Then let me double check my math. I was falling asleep as I typed and I've determined by the results of several assignments when I was in college, my brain refuses to do math correctly when I'm asleep.

The 1.5 engine is 60% the displacement of the 2.5 but the 42# injector flows less than the original 2.5 injector. Yep... the scalar should be .77 which would give an injector constant of 104. It's very typical in GM land for injector size and injector constant to disagree slightly so I always scale the OE constant rather than calculate it from scratch.


Can the 700 series injector not be adjusted like the larger TBI injectors? It's been a while since I've looked at one.

The injector will respond the same way to pressure changes. That's how I was able to use four TBI injectors in my Cavalier PFI engine.

POZE
03-19-2012, 06:20 PM
Mark, you are the master of distributor mods. The injector I have is Delphi # FJ10043 59 lbs hr and purple plastic screen frame.
Fuel pump is Carter P5001 external and Mallory 4307M regulator. I did most of the work on this car 3-4 years ago and now I have began to question some of the setup. I played with the fuel pump bucket idea back then but did the pump the easy way using the external carter. The tank mod for the pump bucket that I saw on the forum was done very nice.

EagleMark
03-19-2012, 06:35 PM
That P 5001 TBI pump will flow the small amount of fuel you need to about 20+PSI. If you need more PSI you need the P 5000 for TPI. I've used both many times. Excellent pumps. Little noisy...

Never used an external regulater though? Should be 3/8th feed and 5/16 return... could be smaller on your application.

POZE
03-19-2012, 07:23 PM
With this regulator there is no return from the injector body. It returns to the tank from the regulator and uses a feed from the regulator to the injector body. It is a sort of deadhead but the pressure it controlled back at the regulator. http://www.jegs.com/InstallationInstructions/600/650/650-4307M.pdf
Two thing bother me.
Vapor lock and there is a slight pressure oscillation.
I think I can fix the oscillation with a vertical stand pipe connected to the injector feed line. Air trap.
I used either GM o-ring fittings or double flares on all permanent fuel connections except pump pre-filter.
You are correct on the noisy pump. Another reason to have the pump in the tank.

EagleMark
03-19-2012, 08:03 PM
I think that regulater would be fine if it were very close to the injector?

Pressure oscillation would also be reduced with long feed and return lines, could also be charging system? Do you have a good steady voltage at idle? I also like to run ground for pump back to engine block, same ground plane as ECM. Specailly with older car conversions, they just did not have good ground straps from engine to body and body to frame etc...

Fuel pump noise can be calmed down with rubber isolated mounts like ones sold by MSD for there boxs, they are identical to the first ones I used I had laying around which were oil tank mounts from an early harley, mine was 1966 but to 198x were the same.... isolates noise from echoing on frame or body. Then get some black foam pipe insulation and V slice ends slide it over pump and cover pump to like 4-5 inches onto fuel line and cable tie V slice. Makes a big difference. In tank pump that Greg did the write up on is ideal for conversions because it has built in bucket and does not need baffles in tank.

1project2many
03-20-2012, 09:42 AM
Two thing bother me.
Vapor lock and there is a slight pressure oscillation.

There's also the possibility of hard starts / long crank times in warm weather from partial vapor formation. I'm with Mark on regulator placement. But a "T" connected at the injector with a very small orifice leading to a return line will purge vapors and may reduce pressure oscillations.

POZE
03-21-2012, 10:10 AM
I need to move the regulator closer to the injector. It is about six foot away. Getting good with tubing bender. The most fun torture I ever had.


:mad1:


Ordered the 1.6 LaMans injector from Motor Man.