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ZEDRATED
08-19-2012, 10:36 AM
Hi everyone, I have been going nuts with my car. I have an 86 CAMARO that had a stock 305 tpi and was auto. I now have a 350 ZZ4 crate motor with a tpis mini with 30lb injectors, with a tremic tko 5 speed. With the stock chip it runs ok but really rich but the car doesn't run to bad in open or closed loop.
I have tried someone programming a custom chip and when the car goes in closed loop, it runs amazing and a lot stronger, the problem is that in open loop the car runs horrible and bogs out and seems like it is getting flooded. I was wondering if anyone has a bin file that I can try as I have the programmer to burn the moates chip. If anyone has a tpis mini with 30lb injectors set up on a 350, I would love to try a bin that might work on my car.
Thank you very much for reading.

gregs78cam
08-19-2012, 12:35 PM
Post up both .bins and I am sure someone can help get the OL sorted out a bit.

ZEDRATED
08-19-2012, 12:51 PM
OK thanks, just on my phone right now buy as soon as I get home I will post both bins and logs for both as well.
Thanks.

gregs78cam
08-19-2012, 01:59 PM
What are you using to datalog?

ZEDRATED
08-19-2012, 03:57 PM
I was using tts data master and tuner pro

1project2many
08-20-2012, 04:44 AM
The miniram can be tough to tune. Most of the mail order cals I've seen end up rich all over. Even miniram cals from the manufacturer (that one was rich enough to knock small birds out of trees).

ZEDRATED
08-20-2012, 05:34 AM
LOL, in open loop I knock myself out LOL, nevermind birds in trees lol. I don't mind it running a little rich but I just don't understand why it runs so horrible in open loop that I can't even drive the car until it goes into closed loop because it's just bogs out as I release the clutch. This is with the custom chip. The the stock bin file it runs not to bad but way to rich that black smoke comes out at WOT. With the custom chip it runs great in closed loop but terrible in open loop. I will post the two bins tonight as well as the two data logs.
Thanks.

EagleMark
08-20-2012, 05:51 AM
The reason it is better in Closed Loop is feedback! It is adjusting the fuel. It's not magic and can only adjust so far. It also needs correct info to be close. If stock injectors are 20 and now you have 30... well you just added 1/3rd more fuel it does not know about.

ZEDRATED
08-20-2012, 06:19 AM
Yes, I understand that. I bought the car like this but is there any way to adjust the bin file so it runs better in open loop but leave it the way it is in closed loop? I also still don't understand why I could drive it without bogging out in open loop with the stock chip as with the custom one it's horrible and the tuner from pcmforless.com couldn't get it to run right in open loop, even after several logs. Again, I will post my bins and logs as soon as I get a chance. Probably tonight.
Thanks.

1project2many
08-20-2012, 07:37 AM
You can change the injector size in the chip.

For now you should probably focus on modifying the stock chip to make the car driveable. If you choose to go forward with tuning then you can use the pcmforless tune as a learning tool. What are you logging with? Other than the ZZ4 and miniram, what is changed in the car?

ZEDRATED
08-20-2012, 08:05 AM
I was hoping I could just modify the custom bin because it runs really good in closed loop. I was logging with Datamaster but my 20 free trials ran out. I am now using TunerPro.
The car has the ZZ4 350, 1000cfm throttle body, tpis mini ram without EGR, 30lb injectors, adjustable fuel pressure regulator and a crate tranny: tremic tko.

1project2many
08-20-2012, 09:08 AM
There's a very good chance the engine runs well in closed loop because the maximum and minimum values for the corrections have been widened far beyond factory. This would allow the O2 to drive a substantially rich engine back to stoich and would practically eliminate codes for rich and / or lean engine conditions. I suppose the first thing to do is check the injector constant (the injector size) to make sure it matches your injectors then adjust if it doesn't. The problem is that constant is a basis for all other fuel numbers so if you change it you might find other issues show up that you didn't experience before.

ZEDRATED
08-20-2012, 09:37 AM
When I was playing around with the bin file, I didn't see an injector size option in tuner pro?
I'm sure the custom chip is set up for 30lbs as I told the tuner that's what it has.

EagleMark
08-20-2012, 09:39 AM
Post the bin and XDF so we can look?

1project2many
08-20-2012, 09:55 AM
Yes, post the .bin and the .xdf

If you adjust the fuel pressure from what the injectors are measured at then you no longer have a 30lb injector.

ZEDRATED
08-20-2012, 10:37 AM
Thanks. I will do so as soon as I get home from with around 8pm. I have the fuel pressure set at about 44 psi on idle.

1project2many
08-20-2012, 10:57 AM
With higher pressure the injector flows more fuel. If you fix that number in the chip the engine won't run so rich in open loop. If you can get some info on the injectors it will help determine what the injector constant should be.

PJG1173
08-20-2012, 11:08 AM
don't forget if you changed injectors you have to think about the injector offset too.

ZEDRATED
08-20-2012, 11:30 AM
I believe that the injectors are Bosch 30lb but I bought the car used so I will ask the guy.
I will post the Bin and Datalog file soon.
Thanks.

ZEDRATED
08-20-2012, 03:46 PM
here are the bin`s and logs. the log for one bin is to big to post.

ZEDRATED
08-20-2012, 03:47 PM
the 6.14.12 original.bin is the custom one for the car

ZEDRATED
08-20-2012, 03:50 PM
stock chip data log

ZEDRATED
08-20-2012, 03:55 PM
my data log for the custom chip is 1.02MB and it wont let me upload it here :(

ZEDRATED
08-20-2012, 03:56 PM
but again the big problem is open loop with this file: 6.14.12 original.bin comparing to the stock bin. The car bogs right out but runs mint in closed loop

1project2many
08-20-2012, 05:05 PM
What .xdf did you use for Tunerpro? Also, the injector info (part no, or specs, or even "Ford red top" will work) and fuel pressure with key on / engine off.

ZEDRATED
08-20-2012, 06:22 PM
I believe it is the $6E mask for the .XDF file. I just checked the fuel pressure with key on engine off and it's about 49-50 PSI. As for the injectors, like I said, I bought the car used and tried to contact the previous owner but no reply yet. They are yellow top and I believe either Bosch or from TPIS. But I'm leaning more towards a Bosch injector. I do have an adjustable fuel pressure regulator with a gauge right on the fuel rail.
I've played around with it but no success. Also I didn't try adjusting while in open loop but the pressure right now is about stock.
Thanks.

1project2many
08-20-2012, 07:29 PM
Those are Accel injectors and they're rated 30 #/hr at 43.5 psi. I realize you're only a few psi off but computers aren't real good with "close enough." If the timing map isn't best for that engine or if the cam is causing reversion then the wrong injector constant will only aggravate the problem.

ZEDRATED
08-20-2012, 08:31 PM
Isn't fuel pressure measured with the car idling so the vacuum is applied. It is around 44 when it is running.
Or should I set it to 43.5 with the key on engine off?
What do you suggest I do? Did you have a look at the bin file?
How do you know they are accel injectors? Bosch or tpis make yellow injectors to I believe?

1project2many
08-20-2012, 10:02 PM
Fuel pressure should be 40-44 with key on, engine off.

I looked at the log file for the stock calibration but it would be nice to have the other. Did you try changing the extension and uploading again?

I'm guessing they're Accel. I can't find any specs in any of my 15 year collection of injector specs for a 30# Bosch yellow top injector with high impedance, and TPIS injectors are someone else's injector (usually Bosch) with their name on the packaging. If they're bosch there will be numbers on the side like 0 280 150 XXX. If there's a number like that we can look them up.

EagleMark
08-21-2012, 07:54 AM
my data log for the custom chip is 1.02MB and it wont let me upload it here :(Attachment size for .uni is doubled so you can attach now.

ZEDRATED
08-21-2012, 11:21 AM
Oh ok thanks. I will try to attach the file tonight when I get home. I will also try lowering the fuel pressure and see what happens but I don't think that'll help as it doesn't run to bad with the stock chip, this is why I am convinced that it is something with the bin file.
I will put up the other log tonight. Have you looked at the custom bin file? Anything stand out comparing to the stock bin that'll make it run bad like this in open loop?
I will also check the injectors to see if there is any numbers on them.
Thanks.

EagleMark
08-21-2012, 04:09 PM
Running bad in open loop just proves the fueling is way off, closed loop corrects fueling.

ZEDRATED
08-21-2012, 04:15 PM
Sounds right. I'll post the other log as soon as I get home.
I still dont get why it doesn't run that bad though with the stock bin comparing to the custom one with the same fuel pressure. It should run even worse with the stock bin?????

EagleMark
08-21-2012, 04:22 PM
Well I compared the 2 bins for you... 16000 differences? :yikes:

The stock chip is $32 and the 6.14.12 bin is $6E... so not sure what a data log would do? Have to use the right ADX file for right mask. You need to back up and figure out what this system is first.

1project2many
08-21-2012, 07:14 PM
ZEDRATED, if you can post that log it would be awesome. I'm not so sure this calibration is the one to start with but it's fun to look at, that's for sure. Everything that follows in this post is for the people that enjoy looking at other calibrations to see how they were "built."

This is a wonderful cal to look at and try to work out what was happening. The custom cal previously posted is based on APYU which is an auto trans calibration for a 5.7. It's in a manual trans car. This calibration has been heavily modified from stock in the following manner:

VATS disabled
Manual trans bit enabled
EGR code 32 disabled
Fuel pump voltage code 54 disabled
Max spark advance increased by 4 degrees
Injector constant raised to 30 #/hr
idle speed adder for park/neutral set to zero
EGR disabled through temp
MAF sensor low flow code 33 threshold raised to 65 gm/sec
AIR disabled
Main spark advance table is completely modified and it's just all over the place. Under full load there's up to 7 degrees added advance at 4k rpm while at 3200 and 4800 there only an additional 4 degrees.
PE spark advance has been reduced in all cells with a maximum of 8 degrees taken out at 4800 rpm.
Knock recovery rate has been increased by up to 61% at 3200-4800 rpm
Max knock retard has not been changed from stock
%TPS to enable PE has been lowered by 45% above 4500 rpm
%TPS to enable PE when hot hasn't been adjusted
PE fuel has been increased by 6% at 56C and 3% at 80 and 104 deg C but nowhere else
PE fuel has been increased by 12.5% from 4000 to 5600 rpm
No changes to injector voltage correction tables
No changes to low PW correction tables
No changes to AE pulses
initial cranking fuel pw decreased
increases in desired idle vs temp but it's all over the map.
Fan temps lowered
MAF tables are scaled down as much as 5 gms/sec
Default MAF value vs %tps and rpm isn't adjusted

All other values I've looked at are stock. Anyone want to discuss why this calibration runs poorly when cool? For best results, use a compare to view main spark advance, PE enable and spark values, and PE fueling.

ZEDRATED
08-21-2012, 07:58 PM
I was originally convinced that there isn`t enough spark advance when cold or in open loop but I`m not sure. The car does run reallt well in closed loop and I don`t wanna change that. This 6.14.12bin is actually the second bin that the tunner sent me to correct the problem with no luck but I found the car running good in closed loop so I used this one. Attached is the log for this bin. It was logged with TTS data master not tuner pro. The ADX file for the $6E is attached as well.

ZEDRATED
08-21-2012, 08:01 PM
I forgot to mension that the car shuts off after initial cold start up unless I hold the throttle down a little. Maybe someone can adjust my stock bin to work with my set up.
I am going to post the stock bin and logs and the three custom buns and logs as well.
Thanks:

ZEDRATED
08-21-2012, 08:04 PM
Original bin and log attached:

ZEDRATED
08-21-2012, 08:07 PM
First custom bin made for me with moates adaptor from PCMFORLESS.COM and log:

ZEDRATED
08-21-2012, 08:09 PM
Second and current bin I am using with log that the tunner tried to fix my problem with no success:

ZEDRATED
08-21-2012, 08:27 PM
And here is the third bin and log that the tunner sent me with no success so he gave me a refund which I didn't want but he gave up and didn't want to deal with me any more and was convinced that I have a mechanical problem. I don't see it being mechanical as it doesn't do it with the stock chip.
With the stock chip the car runs ok in open and closed loop but really rich with black smoke coming out of the exhaust at WOT. The rpm's also drop quickly when shifting gear causing non-smooth shifts and they drop to about 500 rpm when the clutch is pressed then bounch back up. The car does not have as much power as opposed to the custom bin file.
I have tried adjusting the fuel pressure and I now have it at 44psi with key on engine off but it runs the same.
With the custom bin, the car runs really strong, rpm's drop smooth and car shifts nice. Engine seem's a little rice but nothing like with the stock bin and overall drivability with the car is nice ans smooth with lots of power, the problem is when the car is cold or in open loop it runs horrible.

Just to review: 86 Camaro Z28, originally a 305 tpi, auto.
Bought the car with: ZZ4 350, tpis mini (no egr), accel 30lb injectors (yellow top), GM hot cam, 1000 cfm throttle body, 160 degree thermostat with dual fans and flexalite adjustable controller (fans not computer controlled) I was told that the heads were ported, I added A/C (had it from factory), ram air ducts with K&N air filters.

I adjusted the tps properly along with the IAC valve.


I would love for the car to run the way it is in closed loop but with the same way it runs in open loop with the stock bin.


Any help here and all the support is greatly appreaciated.


Thanks,


Danny

ZEDRATED
08-21-2012, 08:30 PM
Sorry, got caught up thinking and forgot to add the third bin the tunner tried with no succes of fixing the open loop problem, here it is:

ZEDRATED
08-21-2012, 08:38 PM
1project2many, you are right, I had a closer look at the injectors and the say accel on them, man, you really know your stuff lol
thanks

ZEDRATED
08-21-2012, 08:45 PM
oh, and incase you didn't read up top, I adjusted the pressure to 44 psi and then started the car and it was still running rough and shut off twice. Didn't take it for a drive but I'm sure from the way it is running that it'll be the same. The car also has the catalytic converter punched out and all air pump system was removed with delete pulley.
Thanks

1project2many
08-21-2012, 09:54 PM
Danny....

First off, I need to apologize. I don't mean this in a bad way but I've realized you have only a little idea what's involved in this job. Generally the people here that post are interested in DIY tuning. I asked the questions I did thinking that you wanted to learn to make changes to your car as well. I was not offering to fix your calibration for you. I'm sorry if I came across that way.

With that said, there's a big difference between what you perceive and what I see. I don't like that custom calibration. I wouldn't have done it that way at all. That cal looks very much like a copy of a TPIS calibration and probably behaves very much like other TPIS cals I've run into. I looked through the log file and found large amounts of knock retard when you snap the throttle, large changes in injector pulsewidth at idle, slow response to throttle snap followed up by too much fuel, and that's just in the first 2 1/2 minutes of operation. Please don't use the original stock calibration for comparison either. It's just as wrong for your engine, although in many different ways.

If you'd like to learn to tune your own then you've probably got a big task ahead of you. But the rewards for doing it yourself are very high. I don't have any miniram calibrations here from '165 equipped vehicles. I did a very exhaustive search even bringing up cals from 12-13 years ago that required DOS based software to view. Again, sorry.

EagleMark
08-21-2012, 11:59 PM
ZEDRATED, if you can post that log it would be awesome. I'm not so sure this calibration is the one to start with but it's fun to look at, that's for sure. Everything that follows in this post is for the people that enjoy looking at other calibrations to see how they were "built."

This is a wonderful cal to look at and try to work out what was happening. The custom cal previously posted is based on APYU which is an auto trans calibration for a 5.7. It's in a manual trans car. This calibration has been heavily modified from stock in the following manner:

VATS disabled
Manual trans bit enabled
EGR code 32 disabled
Fuel pump voltage code 54 disabled
Max spark advance increased by 4 degrees
Injector constant raised to 30 #/hr
idle speed adder for park/neutral set to zero
EGR disabled through temp
MAF sensor low flow code 33 threshold raised to 65 gm/sec
AIR disabled
Main spark advance table is completely modified and it's just all over the place. Under full load there's up to 7 degrees added advance at 4k rpm while at 3200 and 4800 there only an additional 4 degrees.
PE spark advance has been reduced in all cells with a maximum of 8 degrees taken out at 4800 rpm.
Knock recovery rate has been increased by up to 61% at 3200-4800 rpm
Max knock retard has not been changed from stock
%TPS to enable PE has been lowered by 45% above 4500 rpm
%TPS to enable PE when hot hasn't been adjusted
PE fuel has been increased by 6% at 56C and 3% at 80 and 104 deg C but nowhere else
PE fuel has been increased by 12.5% from 4000 to 5600 rpm
No changes to injector voltage correction tables
No changes to low PW correction tables
No changes to AE pulses
initial cranking fuel pw decreased
increases in desired idle vs temp but it's all over the map.
Fan temps lowered
MAF tables are scaled down as much as 5 gms/sec
Default MAF value vs %tps and rpm isn't adjusted

All other values I've looked at are stock. Anyone want to discuss why this calibration runs poorly when cool? For best results, use a compare to view main spark advance, PE enable and spark values, and PE fueling.I was really looking forward to looking at that tune until I read your review... I'm not going to look now... dam it I gotta look...

ZEDRATED
08-22-2012, 05:45 AM
No offense taken, I do know very little about tuning and I know that there is a lot involved. I was just coming in here to see if anyone has the same set up as me and could let me try one of their custom bins.
So what you told me is probably why it runs so bad when I first start it up and in open loop?
I honestly don't have the knowledge, or time to learn how to tune. I didn't want you to tune it for me either as I know it takes a lot of time. Again, just wondering if someone has a bin I can try for this set up or if anyone knows of someone other than PCMFORLESS.COM that can make a custom bin for me.
1project2many, I'm either looking for a bin I can try that someone has or looking for someone to pay to custom make a bin for my needs. If you do have the time and are interested I am willin to pay. I'm not looking for a free bee.
Thanks.

EagleMark
08-22-2012, 06:47 AM
No offense taken, I do know very little about tuning and I know that there is a lot involved. I was just coming in here to see if anyone has the same set up as me and could let me try one of their custom bins.
So what you told me is probably why it runs so bad when I first start it up and in open loop?
I honestly don't have the knowledge, or time to learn how to tune. I didn't want you to tune it for me either as I know it takes a lot of time. Again, just wondering if someone has a bin I can try for this set up or if anyone knows of someone other than PCMFORLESS.COM that can make a custom bin for me.
1project2many, I'm either looking for a bin I can try that someone has or looking for someone to pay to custom make a bin for my needs. If you do have the time and are interested I am willin to pay. I'm not looking for a free bee.
Thanks.Someone may take you up on that since you can log, not me as $6E is not something I have worked on in person.

Hey I looked and in TunerPro def it shows Disable EGR if MAT < X 296.15 Is this how EGR was disabled in your def? It's the only EGR temp paremeter I could find. I'm guessing the TP XDF is wrong? Would have been easy with TPS%.

If you compare the spark tables in wireframe you can see it's basically a stock timing table that has been smoothed... wrong... with PE spark removed it has less overall WOT PE spark then stock.


Anyone want to discuss why this calibration runs poorly when cool? I didn't see anything but would like to discuss...

1project2many
08-22-2012, 07:12 AM
I appreciate your honesty and your willingness to pay. Tuning a car without driving it can become very difficult. I rarely do this, and it's only when it seems like there's a good match between car owner and myself in personality, skill, and a general approach to the vehicle. Whether or not I see this match is irrelevant though. I'm so buried in projects right now it's not even funny. I just can't commit to taking on this job because I know I don't have the time to see it through to completion.

I do tend to have a bulldog-like approach to solving problems though. And for some reason I've decide that I need to get the proper injector data for your 30# injectors, which is an absolute must for getting this calibration correct. To wit, when an injector is opened there is a certain time delay between "start to open" and "delivering consistent fuel." This time delay is different at different voltages, and it's a large part of delivering correct fuel when the engine is at idle and low speed. If the ecm doesn't know these values then it will not open the injectors for the correct amount of time to deliver the required fuel. With these larger injectors in your engine these numbers are going to be very important to getting the calibration correct. Personally I'd likely buy a couple of sets of OEM 3800 Supercharged injectors and sell the yellow "go fast" parts but if the corrections can be obtained then that's what matters. If you can look at an injector and try to identify it that will help anyone who's going to build you a chip. Some of the older Bosch orange injectors are now a yellow-orange so that may be what's in your car. You'll really need to identify the injector to get a quality tuner to stand behind his tune.

ZEDRATED
08-22-2012, 07:41 AM
1project2many, I looked closer at the injectors and they are Accel and are yellow top and just confirmed with the previous owner and that's what they are. I don't drive the car much and if you had some extra time that you can find I would pay you for your time to tune the car as I can at least log and burn the bin file. If you do not have the time then do you know anyone who is good and can do it?

1project2many
08-22-2012, 08:34 AM
I looked closer at the injectors and they are Accel and are yellow top
I just noticed that you said that. Sometimes I start a reply and it takes a long time to get it posted. New posts show up while I'm still getting my facts together. I should get into the habit of checking for new posts before sending my reply.

1project2many
08-22-2012, 09:17 AM
I didn't see anything but would like to discuss...

Sure. There's a real issue with the PE mode changes. PE entry point has been reduced to 25% throttle at 2k rpm and above. The ecm uses PE% change to fuel / air tables and the spark adder table to adjust AFR and timing. The PE % change to fuel/air vs temp table shows zero additional correction below 138 deg F(56 C) then jumps to a 6% increase in F/A. The next two entries starting at 176 deg F reduce additional added fuel to 3%. Then there's no correction again. (Side note: Is this car located in warm, sunny CA?) No matter where this calibration is in terms of fuel, it gets noticeably richer at a temp between startup and closed loop entry. Stock PE mode calls for AFR to be below 10:1 when the engine is below 138 F but stock PE isn't active until 75-80% throttle. By 75-80% throttle in an auto trans cal the trans is in the process of downshifting or has already shifted and engine rpm is quickly on the rise. In fact, that huge change in AFR when cold covers for stock AE to some degree. But a manual trans can go to 100% throttle in any gear and the rpm doesn't change. In that case you want the AFR to remain relatively constant but instead this cal causes a huge increase in fuel.

PE Spark only adds to the issue by reducing timing from 2 to 8 degrees across the board every time the throttle crosses 25%. It gets richer and spark advance decreases at the same time. It's not like the tuner's using the PE spark reduction to make up for lack of auto trans downshift, either. Spark is reduced by greater amounts as engine rpm increases, just the opposite of what's needed to correct for low rpm, high load situations. This entire strategy is designed to cover for knock retard without spending time tuning. If it knocks add fuel then pull spark, so let's just build that into the cal right away.

Aggravating this mess is a complete lack of adjustment to the acceleration enleanment tables. The main purpose of AE is to keep the mixture in the intake from getting too lean and exploding when the throttle is opened. The amount of fuel needed is heavily based on the injector delivery rate and the intake manifold volume. This car has larger injectors and a smaller intake yet the AE pulses are exactly the same as stock. And then it's running the injectors on the stock correction tables, likely delivering more than expected fuel at the lower PW's commanded by the ecm with no way to correct it.


This thing must smell like raw fuel and probably wants to stumble when the throttle is pressed in open loop. I'm surprised it feels like it runs well in closed loop. The logs seem to show a different story. It's too bad there's no easy to convert the datamaster log to TP. But you can download datamaster and view the log files for free.

ZEDRATED
08-22-2012, 09:41 AM
You nailed it bang on. It does smell very rich and bogs out when releasing the clutch in open loop.
I do have a log in TunerPro as well and I will post that up tonight. I just find reading datalogs a lot easier in tts Datamaster but I will post that up.
So...... What do I do from here lol.
Glad to hear that I believe I was correct about this bin file being way off instead of the tuner telling me that I have a mechanical problem :-)

EagleMark
08-22-2012, 09:54 AM
Couldn't find any voltage corrections for that injector? For an idea of what is needed and how much changing injectors effects outputs look at this page for differences in settings. Without these settings it is hard to come up with a base tune.

http://injector-rehab.com/shop/lag.html

ZEDRATED
08-22-2012, 10:44 AM
Oh and by the way, the car is drivin in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. I only drive it in warm temperatures above 10 degrees Celsius. I don't drive it in the winter. I'm not sure where to go from here :-(

EagleMark
08-22-2012, 12:10 PM
You nailed it bang on. It does smell very rich and bogs out when releasing the clutch in open loop.
I do have a log in TunerPro as well and I will post that up tonight. I just find reading datalogs a lot easier in tts Datamaster but I will post that up.
So...... What do I do from here lol.
Glad to hear that I believe I was correct about this bin file being way off instead of the tuner telling me that I have a mechanical problem :-)You could always have a mechanical issue! But 1project2many has revealed some bin file issues to start.

Where to start? 1227165 is an old ECM, $6E is a MAF system. Would it be better to start with a differant SD ECM and better documented mask? Seems there is a lot of changes to SD from MAF in this situation like 1227730-27 ECM with $8D and more notably S_AUJP bin project. Or for a beginner tuner with a hot engine the Dynamic EFI system may be your best choice for this. It does come with many starter tunes, no burning chips, Auto VE tuning, advanced data logger and great tech support.

Calculating estimated HP of engine will determine injector size and pressure needed. Having injector specs like Voltage Corrections is information needed to start a calibration. Without it's all a guess as to what is going to work/happen.

ZEDRATED
08-22-2012, 01:16 PM
Again, I dont see it being a mechanical issue because it runs fine with the stock chip.
And it is a MAF system not a SD.
This is the GM service number in the computer: 16198259
Thanks.

EagleMark
08-22-2012, 02:16 PM
I understand it is MAF, that's why I considered a SD system...

The stock chip you posted is $32 and the mail order tune is $6E... I just haven't played with this ECM and masks to know how that would work? You've obviously done enough diagnosing to rule out mechical issue, but never rule it out in the end. The ECM can not tell, it expects "A" (22 pph injectors) and if given "B" (30 pph injectors) it can't tell or fix it. Same with A-B being fuel pressure or a vacuum leak or...

HTH!

ZEDRATED
08-22-2012, 02:45 PM
As I said before, fuel pressure, vacuum leak, etc......
would all be there no matter what chip I plug into the computer..........

1project2many
08-22-2012, 06:41 PM
Nobody's saying the chip isn't a problem. What we're saying is there may be other issues as well. If you are predetermined that there are not, or could not be, problems outside the chip then you're risking trouble. Both chips are wrong for your engine and comparing their performance as a diagnostic tool is inappropriate. Question: If broken wrench A slips when tightening a bolt, and broken wrench B slips when tightening the same bolt, is the problem with one the wrenches or the bolt? A: Get a proper wrench but keep an eye on that bolt.

The main difference is between $32 and $6E is that $32 was written to work with a 9th injector for cold start. This was a temperature activated, constant flow injector in the floor of the plenum. $6E had a "new" fast start routine that eliminated the cold start injector. $6E has always been considered an upgrade to $32 and ARAP (a Vette cal) was rumored to have been the best MAF equipped L98 calibration GM built. Supposedly it was tuned for the cars GM handed out to magazines and enthusiasts for performance testing. The TPIS miniram has no cold start injector so $6E is appropriate. The best choice is an ecm swap to a 1227730 with a speed density calibration from the last couple years of tuned port. Mark's probably right with that recommendation. But if you're not likely to get into tuning then $6E plus your ecm (the number you listed is just the last GM part number for what was originally a 1227165) is about as good as it's likely to get.

I haven't come up with injector corrections for those injectors. I want so far as to install Accel's Calmap software and download a sample cal with Accel 30# injectors hoping to view them but wouldn't ya know, the injector corrections are not available to be viewed or changed unless you have the "pro" version. Sorry, I'm not paying for a hardware lock to view that data. Again, if the corrections are not available you're not going to have much success with a calibration. You can look around for "greg banish dvd" or "calibrated success injector dvd" and you can determine through forum discussions just how many people are finally catching on to how important these numbers are. If you can't get them from Accel then I'd recommend selling the injectors and installing some replacements for which these numbers are available.

ZEDRATED
08-22-2012, 07:21 PM
I understand what you are saying but right now I want another wrench and I'll keep an eye in the bolt but right now that bolt looks pretty good and not stripped lol.
Anyways, what if I emailed Accel and asked for the Injectors corrections for these injectors?
What would I ask for? An injector corrections table or something? Like I said, I am new to this and trying to learn.
Thanks.

1project2many
08-22-2012, 07:32 PM
Tell them you're trying to get a chip made and the tuner's looking for the correction figures. There are a couple of different ways to do it but they should know what you want. You can't be the first guy asking.

ZEDRATED
08-22-2012, 07:59 PM
OK, I am going to fire off an email to them right now.
Wherever this is going or where we get, I just want to let you know that I really appreaciate even everything you have done for me so far. I don't feel guilty getting a refund back from that tuner now because you are telling me that it is was way off what it should be.
Thanks.

ZEDRATED
08-22-2012, 08:17 PM
Here is a log with tunerpro for anyone who wanted to have a look at it:

1project2many
08-23-2012, 04:33 AM
I don't feel guilty getting a refund back from that tuner now because you are telling me that it is was way off what it should be.
I wouldn't feel guilty at all. If for no other reason than there were ZERO changes between the file dated 6.14 and the file dated 7.2.

ZEDRATED
08-23-2012, 06:42 AM
Zero change, nice, that's good to know. He made me waste my time and do another log to.
He was kind of rood during our exchange of emails.
Ok, thanks, just waiting for a reply from Accel.

EagleMark
08-23-2012, 07:00 AM
I was looking for the corrections and found posts from 2010 that ACCELL does not have (or does not give) voltage correction figure.... hopefully that has changed.

1project2many
08-23-2012, 07:30 AM
I downloaded calmap, their DFI tuning software, and loaded up a cal from Accel using their 30# injectors. Bad luck, though. Unless you've got a magic key you can't see those values. Wish I knew someone out there with the pro version.

We need voltage corrections, small pulsewidth corrections, and minimum pulsewidth values. Or, we can use a set of Ford style corrections with high slope, low slope, offset, and breakpoint values.

ZEDRATED
08-27-2012, 11:11 AM
So apparently prestolite performance sells these injectors but they are made by SD Concept Engineering. I emailed them but still no reply. Is there anything at all I can do in the mean time so my car will at least run half decent in open loop? When I run the stock chip I am running way to rich and with the custom one I can't even drive the car until it gets warm. Then it runs pretty good and a lot less rich than stock.
Thanks.

1project2many
08-27-2012, 01:10 PM
Try reducing fuel pressure.

ZEDRATED
08-27-2012, 01:29 PM
I reduced it to 44 but still the same. Anything I can do to the bin file for now?

ZEDRATED
08-27-2012, 04:03 PM
Or should I try reducing the pressure even lower, like around 36?

1project2many
08-27-2012, 10:15 PM
I reduced it to 44 but still the same.
Ummm... try reducing it more.


Anything I can do to the bin file for now?
Which file do you want to modify? The GM file that isn't a close match for your car, or the aftermarket one that wasn't right to begin with? Safest thing to do is adjust the single fire and double fire injector constants to 30# on a stock 350 F car calibration. APYU might be a good one to start with as it has 3.27 "performance" gears.

ZEDRATED
08-28-2012, 04:05 AM
I'm not worried about the way the fan works as I have it controlled with the flexalite box with the rod sensor in the rad. I just change the contant in TunerPro?
Thanks

ZEDRATED
08-28-2012, 06:35 AM
Just wonderig which bin I should try for now?
APYP-manual 350 Vette or APYU-350 F Car?
And adjust the single fire and double fire injector constants to 30# and see how it runs for now.
When you say to adjust the single fire and double fire injector constants to 30#, is that a simple thing to do in TunerPro? What do I have to do to modify the bin so there is no EGR?
Thanks.

ZEDRATED
08-28-2012, 06:39 AM
Also, how do I disable the cooling fans in the computer as I have it controlled by the Flexalite temp controller.
Thanks.

1project2many
08-28-2012, 09:39 AM
IIRC there's an "enable temp" for EGR. Set it to the highest number to disable. Changing the injector number is easy. Look for injector rate single fire and injector rate double fire, or something similar. Changing that number is only part of the story without the corrections but it's going to be closer than a stock chip. There's no real need to disable the fans but you can set the enable temp to the highest setting to keep the ecm from trying to turn them on.

ZEDRATED
08-28-2012, 09:51 AM
Ok that sounds easy enough. How about the EGR? And also which bin file would be best?
350 stock bin for F car or the 350 Vette manual?
Is adjusting the injector constant easily done?
I'm still waiting for a reply on those injector corrections but no reply.
Thanks.

1project2many
08-28-2012, 11:25 AM
Safest thing to do is adjust the single fire and double fire injector constants to 30# on a stock 350 F car calibration. APYU might be a good one to start with as it has 3.27 "performance" gears.

I'd say spend some time working with Tunerpro. Open files, look at values, make some changes. You should be able to figure it out.

EagleMark
08-28-2012, 11:35 AM
Ok that sounds easy enough. How about the EGR? And also which bin file would be best?
350 stock bin for F car or the 350 Vette manual?
Is adjusting the injector constant easily done?
I'm still waiting for a reply on those injector corrections but no reply.
Thanks.He mentioned that a few posts ago.

Your all set up to do data and burn chips, your also lucky that 1project2many is willing to help you get going! A wealth of information is available to come your way and we will all learn from it. So just slow down a bit, make sure you read, follow instructions and you'll end up with not only a car that runs but some tuning skills! :thumbsup:

ZEDRATED
08-28-2012, 12:32 PM
OK. Sounds good. I will start with that bin and play around. Again, thanks for the help. It is very much appreaciated. Sorry I repeated some questions, it's just that the forum and my emails timing was acting up and seemed off.
Will post once I have played around with the 350 f car bin.
Thanks gentlemen.

ZEDRATED
08-29-2012, 09:54 AM
What I was able to find out is that the injectors are the OEM replacement specifications. So the same would hold true for the ACCEL injectors as it would be for any OEM application Ford, Chevy, Mopar.

This is what prestolite performance told me but doesn't sound right?
What should I reply to him with?

Thanks.

EagleMark
08-29-2012, 11:05 AM
Same info as needed earlier...

We need voltage corrections, small pulsewidth corrections, and minimum pulsewidth values.

But it looks like beating your head on a wall will yeild more results, at least you would have a hole in wall and a sore head in the end.

You can tune what you have but you'll be chasing your tail trying to work out differences with OEM specs as there is only an ice cubes chance in hell they are correct. Tuning will be a guess here and a fudge there and even then may still having running/drivability issues in certain situations at the end, fix one and cause another... Just look at OEM Chevy, Ford and Mopar specs and they are all differant? Now if Accell would release this information (if they have it?) they would sell more injectors and tuning results would be worth the effort.

By the time you paid to have the injectors tested and documented you could have bought a set of Chevy or known spec injectors.

Again look at link I gave earlier to see voltage offsets, they are so differant between known Accell injectors? and all others... most are dialed in to 14 volts at 1.00 but at 13.8 could be 1.00 or .98 or 1.02 so 4% difference in a .2 volt span, how far off are they going to be at 13.5? Or during cranking? Or if all accessories are on at idle and only 12.5 volts? Try to get a good idle there when voltage offset is changing fueling by 10% or so?

You can still start working on your tune to get running and learning, changing injectors or getting specs in end will reduce chasing issues related. Just stick to basics of tune.

Before that does the motor need 30lb injectors? What is approx HP rating? Use a calculater or spreadsheet with that HP and calculate the need for fuel and pressure, keeping near stock pressure and matching to correct size injector is the easier path.

Whatever you do in meantime do not run motor WOT until you know you have enough fuel to support it, including injector size, fuel pressure and pump to keep fuel pressure there at WOT/high load. A perfect tune that does not have enough fuel WOT will run lean and melt pistons etc... if you don't have enough fuel for WOT it is a waste of time to make a tune idle and drive!

ZEDRATED
08-29-2012, 11:41 AM
I understand what you are saying and right now the car has way more than enough fuel at WOT. I am still trying to get the specs but if not maybe I can try going with the stock specs. Maybe there is an ice cube in hell LOL. I am estimating about 425-450 HP. The car has a high flow pump and I really don't want to change the injectors and would rather try to get the tune done with the car the way it is.
I still have to try to modify the 350 F car bin but have been really busy lately with work and ball hockey lol.
As soon as I get a chance I will try to modify the stock bin and log the car and post it up here.
Thanks.

EagleMark
08-29-2012, 11:47 AM
Using a calculater at this link:
http://www.rceng.com/technical.aspx

You do not have enough injector to support 425 to 450HP... still comes out to 31.xxpph injector for 400HP...

ZEDRATED
08-30-2012, 06:00 AM
Here is what SD concepts replied with:

"There is no "set in stone" voltage correction.* We calibrate many oem pcm's with the same size injectors and they all use different curves.* The easiest way for us to help is to talk with your calibrator -*have him call here around 1pm to talk with Scott."

I guess that maybe I will just try with the stock voltage corrections. I sent an email back asking to talk to this guy Scott. Not sure what he will say.

1project2many
08-30-2012, 06:32 AM
No set in stone correction? That's interesting. :rolleye: Unless they misunderstood what you were asking for, there is a series of numbers which characterize the variation between the theoretical amount of fuel delivered for a given injector "on" time and the actual amount of fuel delivered. Since the injector is a voltage triggered device, there is also a curve which defines how changes in voltage affect delivered flow. It's all based on the injector, not the ecm. There are different ways to express these values, but the injector behaves the same no matter how it's described. You're using a GM OBDI ecm which has entries for "small PW corrections" and "voltage corrections." The specific entries for each of those categories can be viewed in TP so you might want to open a .bin in TP and have those tables handy before making your call.

ZEDRATED
08-30-2012, 06:38 AM
I believe he understood what I was asking for.
Here is another reply when I said that I really need those voltage corrections on the injectors:
Scott also said there is a generic curve in the program already that should be "good enough" and he thinks there might be somethine else going on.* That's why he wants to talk in person on the phone.

I will call at 1pm today.

ZEDRATED
08-30-2012, 06:40 AM
He also said this:
Scott*saw your first email and*I responded with*what he translated.
Unfortunately, there is no set voltage correction.* Scott said he can explain the process to you*instead*of*your tuner on how to "set it" or "check it" for your specific application over the phone if you want to call us instead of having your tuner call us.

Again I will call at 1pm to see what he has to say. This will be interesting. I'll keep u posted. LOL.
I will talk to him and if I get lost I will ask him to send me an email with his explanation.

EagleMark
08-30-2012, 06:50 AM
I downloaded calmap, their DFI tuning software, and loaded up a cal from Accel using their 30# injectors. Bad luck, though. Unless you've got a magic key you can't see those values. Wish I knew someone out there with the pro version.Seems like the information is there? Tell him you have gone as far as this to get it.

1project2many
08-30-2012, 07:12 AM
I'd be happy to exchange email with Scott if it comes down to it.

Shannen

ZEDRATED
08-30-2012, 07:52 AM
Great idea. Thanks. I will let him know that when I call. Hopefully he will give me some sort of good info.
Thanks.

ZEDRATED
08-30-2012, 02:18 PM
So I called but Scott was busy. The manager told me that he will call me in the morning because he is buys today tuning a Chevelle from out of state with the customer waiting. Nice car! I'll post as soon as I get an answer and will try to print out those stock corrections today.

ZEDRATED
08-30-2012, 02:19 PM
....busy..... Sorry. Damn IPhone LOL

ZEDRATED
08-31-2012, 07:26 AM
So I just spoke this this guy Scott at SD concepts and he had my head spinning in circles with how fast he talks lol. Anyways, he said that with the 30lb injectors that the stock voltage corrections would be oo and that would be the least of my worries. Intake volume size, cam, etc.
He said that they usually totally disable the O2 sensors on these cars and get the tune right in the computer on the dyno. I'm sure that up here in Toronto I won't find a guy with this kind of knowledge on these older gm's and he also did make the same recommendation as you guys to go with the newer computer with the SD system because it's way faster or go with an aftermarket computer.
I know that unless I get the car dyno tuned from a professional that it'll never be 100% but I was just looking to get it to run decent and not get the max HP as I am not racing it and just cruisin.
He also said that changing the injector constant to 30# will not do anything as the computer doesn't use that and it's just a number in the program and it has to be changed elsewhere in the bin???

PJG1173
08-31-2012, 07:48 AM
this is the problem with these older systems. its real hard to find anyone local that knows anything about them. all 3 speed shops in my area with dynos wouldn't go near tuning my truck, so I had to learn myself... One place was nice enough to offer thier tuner to interpret the dyno results and offer advice on what I might need to adjust (which helped me pick up another 10hp).

Oh and if a constraint is in there its for a reason or else it would be called a comment...

ZEDRATED
08-31-2012, 07:57 AM
Does anyone know a local dyno tune shop near Toronto that can do these cars?

ZEDRATED
08-31-2012, 08:50 PM
Soni just tried modifying an APYU bin and first the car ran horrible when Inplayed around with a few things, then I just tried changing the injector constant and the EGR and the car wouldn't even start? Don't ask! I have no idea wtf is going on and it's getting frustrated. So I then burned that stock bin, which should be an AUM and changed the constants there to 30# injectors and the car ran good. Still running rich though.
I know this doesn't make sense but, is it possible that this computer, 16198259, that inhale isn't running good with a $6E mask. With the $32 mask it runs good.
What exactly does the other half of the prom do on the other side of the BIN side chip?
Thanks.

ZEDRATED
08-31-2012, 08:52 PM
Sorry about all the spelling errors. It's this damn iPhone and it's late at the end of a long work week.
I'm off to bed lol.

PJG1173
09-01-2012, 05:48 AM
Soni just tried modifying an APYU bin and first the car ran horrible when Inplayed around with a few things, then I just tried changing the injector constant and the EGR and the car wouldn't even start? Don't ask! I have no idea wtf is going on and it's getting frustrated. So I then burned that stock bin, which should be an AUM and changed the constants there to 30# injectors and the car ran good. Still running rich though.
I know this doesn't make sense but, is it possible that this computer, 16198259, that inhale isn't running good with a $6E mask. With the $32 mask it runs good.
What exactly does the other half of the prom do on the other side of the BIN side chip?
Thanks.
I assume you are talking about the memcal. the stuff opposite of the prom is for the knock sensor and limp mode.

ZEDRATED
09-01-2012, 06:05 AM
Ah, I see, thanks.
Is it possible that a $6E mask will not work well on my computer?
Do I have to unhook the battery each time to reset the computer?
Should have to, do I?
Maybe I will try a Vette 350 bin.
Thanks.

JeepsAndGuns
09-01-2012, 06:25 AM
I would un hook the battery any time you change bins, or make significant changes to a exisiting one.
I would especially recomend un hooking the battery when changing code masks. I tried a few different bins and masks on my 7427 (tried a $0D, $0E, and $31) when I changed masks, it did all kinds of screwy things. Cant remember exactly what all it did, but it wasnt running right. I now un hook the battery any time I do that.

85Z28NOS
09-01-2012, 06:26 AM
I have been going back and forth between a $32b ans a $6e using stock bins just playing aroundto learn more about them. One thing i noticed is my 32b runs better on cold start up but runs rich once warmedup. Where as my $6e runs alittle choppy at first start but once warm it runs good but a little lean. Both bins are stock and are for the same size engine/trans/gear ratio. In both cases i dont have any problems running either in my computer

ZEDRATED
09-01-2012, 04:40 PM
That is the problem I hasve but the $6E is way to "choppy" that I can't even drive the car, then once warm it runs really good.
I just tried again with disconnecting the battery but the same thing. Unless I got a bad bin download, but I doubt it, I tried 2.
Here is the bin file and text document after changing the injector size and EGR, I don't see why the car won't even start?
Gonna try an APYP Vette one right now.

ZEDRATED
09-01-2012, 04:43 PM
sorry here it is:

EagleMark
09-01-2012, 04:53 PM
The main difference is between $32 and $6E is that $32 was written to work with a 9th injector for cold start. This was a temperature activated, constant flow injector in the floor of the plenum. $6E had a "new" fast start routine that eliminated the cold start injector. $6E has always been considered an upgrade to $32 and ARAP (a Vette cal) was rumored to have been the best MAF equipped L98 calibration GM built. Supposedly it was tuned for the cars GM handed out to magazines and enthusiasts for performance testing. The TPIS miniram has no cold start injector so $6E is appropriate. The best choice is an ecm swap to a 1227730 with a speed density calibration from the last couple years of tuned port. Mark's probably right with that recommendation. But if you're not likely to get into tuning then $6E plus your ecm (the number you listed is just the last GM part number for what was originally a 1227165) is about as good as it's likely to get.From earlier why things are differant...

ZEDRATED
09-01-2012, 05:05 PM
I just tried the APYP Vette cal and switched the injector constant to 30lb and same thing.
The car won't even start.

ZEDRATED
09-01-2012, 05:06 PM
I understand that but why won't the car even start using these 2 bins. Man this is getting frustrating.

ZEDRATED
09-01-2012, 05:09 PM
Maybe I'll try an ARAP another day. That's enough for tonight. The wife is getting annoyed at me working in the car to much LOL.

1project2many
09-02-2012, 04:31 AM
FWIW It's too bad that guy at the injector place got your head spinning. I'm glad you've decided to make a few changes on your own. The easiest claim to disprove is that the injector constant doesn't do anything. Several other aspects of your conversation bother me as well but the point is that you shouldn't give up.

Since you did the actual burn process with previous tuner I'm sure you're familiar with it. But there are a few things to know / check when actually burning a chip. It's common for GM and others to use a "too big" chip to hold the program. It works but you have to know the trick. If there's no numbers on the outside, like many factory chips, the easiest way to find out what chip you have is to do a read and tell your programmer it's a "27512" chip and post the file here. If you're not programming the chip correctly then the ecm won't even look at your chip.

Next step after a burn is a "compare" or "read and compare." You burn the file to the chip then read it back and make sure it's exactly the same as the one you programmed. If there are any differences you have to figure out what's wrong. The chips used in these ecm's can be a little tough, but static shock will take them down in an instant and you might not realize it's happening. I don't know what kind of burner you're using but there should be a way to do a compare. Look for it and try it with every burn.

The ecm has a way to tell you it thinks the chip is bad before you even start the car. If the key's been off for at least 30 seconds you can turn it to "on" and watch the check engine light. The light should turn on for maybe a second, turn off for a second or two, then turn back on and stay on. If it stays on, stays off, or flashes rapidly, there's a problem. Pull the chip and figure it out. Remember the key has to be off for at least 30 seconds for this test to work.

Your file looks fine. There's a *lot* involved with making a chip. Sometimes changing a few values has unexpected results. Is your fuel pressure still turned down? If so you should turn it back up. I can't think of a reason why you shouldn't work with $6E although you've got enough going on that I wouldn't blame you if you use $32 for now. Just be sure to confirm the chip size and that the program you're burning is the one that ends up in the chip.


Maybe I'll try an ARAP another day. That's enough for tonight. The wife is getting annoyed at me working in the car to much LOL. It may get worse! Some people actually enjoy this stuff.

ZEDRATED
09-02-2012, 04:44 AM
I did exactly everything you just said and I always burn with 27512 and compare bin to buffer every time I burn a chip and in this case it showed a match each time. The only thing that I didn't know about was the check engine light actions. I will keep playing and now have a look at what is going on with the light.
Do you think we can get away with using the stock injector voltage corrections?
Thanks.

Kid-Neutron
09-02-2012, 09:16 AM
Your voltage offsets will work to get running, you will end up with issues in final tuning stages.

Using TunerPro and built in Moates burn software, if you have ever changed and offset and then click on 27FS512 they will no longer be correct, sometimes, some say they do. It's better if you know they are correct.
http://support.moates.net/programming-chips-using-offsets/

Bin file is smaller then chip size and needs to be in correct spot, this is the porpose of offsets.

Also knowing how check engine light operates will alert you do bad chip burn.

After making changes to bin file save as new name, for 2 reasons, one you have one to go back to and two it calculates checksum when saving.

For stock bin and your engine take out 20% fuel at idle and add 5-10 degrees spark advance to idle, this will help get it running closer with cam. Leave all else alone except known equiptment missing like EGR and see how it goes.

EDIT: This is EagleMark using my sons laptop.

1project2many
09-02-2012, 11:15 AM
It's that dang Kid Neutron again! Banned across the interwebz and now he's here. Who approved this guy, anyway??

It's also good to use a numbering sequence with the files and match them to handwritten notes documenting changes. Regarding corrections, go ahead and use what you've got but only because you're getting used to the basics of making changes. Chances are you'll get to a point when you want to replace your injectors for parts with known values.

I'm sure you'll end up with a good cal one way or another.

jameslleary
09-02-2012, 11:21 PM
Has anyone looked at the specs on that cam? No wonder its running rich...sound familiar Mark? LOL!

EagleMark
09-03-2012, 05:33 AM
It's that dang Kid Neutron again! Banned across the interwebz and now he's here. Who approved this guy, anyway??
D'oh!


Has anyone looked at the specs on that cam? No wonder its running rich...sound familiar Mark? LOL!Is it close to yours? He has way more going on then you did to start a tune...

JP86SS
09-03-2012, 06:02 AM
As a possible "short term" fix,
turn down the timers for entering closed loop. (these are available in SD systems so I'm guessing they exist in the MAF)
Don't get crazy with them but try cutting it in half and verify the O2 sensor is active at that time.

Bring your idle speed up to at least 800 rpm so it will run cold.
not sure what you have now.

Once in CL, go for a long drive (stay out of PE) and log your fuel corrections.
Go back to the fuel table and tweak them appropriatly.
Then do another drive and tweak.
Once the fueling is decent you can start playing with the spark tables to get more power.
(SA tables will then alter the fueling needs so you'll go back and do that again)

You'll need a wide band O2 sensor to then proceed to WOT tuning.
Without it you are flying pretty much blind if using the NB sensor.
This is how you get a car to run decent. No other magic way to it.
then you go and target small issues with tip in, AE, PE modes for best settings.

Welcome to the world of tuning insanity!
Jp

1project2many
09-03-2012, 07:26 AM
Has anyone looked at the specs on that cam?
I have one here. I've tuned this cam with MAF and MAP systems. It's not so aggressive that it has to run rich at idle.

OP, there's a lot of good advice here but I'm sure it's overwhelming. Just take small steps and you'll be fine.

jameslleary
09-03-2012, 08:36 AM
D'oh!

Is it close to yours? He has way more going on then you did to start a tune...
Its a bigger cam, compaired to mine...heres the zz4 cam :Steel Hydraulic Roller Cam (Lift: .474" Int/.510" Exh, Duration @ .050": 208° Int/221° Exh)LSA 112*
If my cam's low vac caused my issues, I am willing to bet he is fighting the same battle. Mine is runnung sweet, btw!

ZEDRATED
09-03-2012, 10:19 AM
Just took the car out for a drive today with the stock bin but just changed the injector constant's in single and double fire to 30. Not sure if it actually did anything as the car seems to run the same, very rich.
I wish I could some how get the car to run good in open loop with that 6.14.12 bin that pcmforless burnt for me as the car runs so nice with that bin once it's in closed loop. It doesn't smell as rich, the RPM's come down nice and slow when shifting gears for a nice smooth shift and the car has a lot of power.
Nothing at all possible that I can do to get that bin running good in open loop? Or when cold?

Kid-Neutron
09-03-2012, 10:20 AM
Thats not a hard cam to tune. Your's had other issues which were the large cap HEI and I think just age on motor... or age of owner? :laugh:

Is it still doing OK?

EDIT: EagleMark again on kids laptop...

ZEDRATED
09-03-2012, 05:38 PM
So I tried a few other $6E mask bin files and again, don`t ask me what`s going on but the car will not even start. Check engine light does not flash and just remains on when key is turned on but also does the same for my custom bin from pcmforless.com and the car starts and runs. I changed all the values to zero for open loop AFR% change and it seems a little better in open loop but still runs really rough until about 5 minutes of driving the car then it runs so nice. I know 1project2many said that this bin is totally wrong for the car but it does run really nice in closed loop. If I casn somehow get it to even run like the stock bin in open loop then I would be happy with the tune. Anyway possible to do that? I still believe that the proper way to get this car running 100% is to dyno tune it with a wideband O2 as JP86SS was suggesting but like I said, it's hard to find a guy up here in this area who does anything other than OBD-2 but I will keep looking and asking around.
1project2many, any suggestions for getting bin file 6.14.12 to run better in open loop?
Attached are the lattest changes I did to the bin:

Thanks.

ZEDRATED
09-03-2012, 05:47 PM
just uploaded my profile pic. woohooo lol.

ZEDRATED
09-03-2012, 05:49 PM
how come it doesn`t show here :-(

ZEDRATED
09-03-2012, 05:50 PM
????

ZEDRATED
09-03-2012, 06:01 PM
I just made another discovery. When I first put the chip into the computer and turn the key forward, the engine light will come on, off fast, back on and stay on. Then everytime after that when I turn the key forward the light comes on and just stay's on. I tried this with the stock chip as well as with 2 custom bins with the moates adaptor and all three did the exact same thing. Is this normal or should the engine light go on, off, on all the time, everytime the key is turned?
Thanks.

ZEDRATED
09-03-2012, 06:06 PM
Nevermind, I forgot about the 30 second time intervals, it does go on, off, on after 30 seconds. Ill keep this in mind when trying more bins lol.

Thanks.

Six_Shooter
09-03-2012, 07:28 PM
When I tune cars on the street I use a WBO2 for reference, I don't believe in dyno tuning street cars, only race cars, sometimes, and dyno queens.

EagleMark
09-03-2012, 07:36 PM
just uploaded my profile pic. woohooo lol.


how come it doesn`t show here :-(Your profile picture is on your profile page. the one under your name is an Avatar. :innocent2:

85Z28NOS
09-04-2012, 10:50 AM
I found this bin someone had posted that they modified for a ZZ4 from a ARAP bin. He doesnt list what intake he had on it but thought it would be worth looking at if nothing else

1project2many
09-05-2012, 05:29 AM
My recommendation for the modified file is to put it in the bitbucket. It is a poor foundation to build on.

See if the attached file starts and runs.

Note: The ZZ4 cal posted above may also be a reasonable start as well but don't drive aggressively. Injector fire rate must be adjusted to 30#.

ZEDRATED
09-05-2012, 12:45 PM
For some reason the forum wasn't emailing when there were new posts. I will try both those bins and see how it runs. Thanks eaglemark, I will put the pic on my avatar as well lol.
Did u guys ever hear of Ed Wright from fastchip.com? Apparently he is really good with the GM OBD-1 stuff. He told me that he doesn't use the moates adaptor and he makes his own prom's. He also said that he doesn't ship to Canada :( and charges $350 for his prom's plus shipping.
He said that he would use a $32 mask instead of a $6E because if you really know what you are doing them it is easy to shut off the 9th injector. I think I agree, For some reason I think the car will run better on a modified $32 bin.
Thanks.

ZEDRATED
09-05-2012, 03:00 PM
When I tune cars on the street I use a WBO2 for reference, I don't believe in dyno tuning street cars, only race cars, sometimes, and dyno queens.
would you be interested in tuning my car? and how much would you charge?
your near hamilton?

ZEDRATED
09-05-2012, 04:31 PM
OK, so I just tried both ZZ4 bins posted above and the APYUZZ4_01.bin that 1project2many posted, started but ran really rough and was bogging out when taking off and the engine light was on but I didn't even bother checking the code and just tried the other ZZ4 bin ARAPZZ4.bin that 85Z28NOS posted, I changed the injector constant to 30, and it ran a lot better but still had the rpm's dropping qucikly when pushing the clutch down and still bogging and bouncing the car under load especially when shifting into third just under 2000 rpm. I went for a longer drive and heated the car up and talk about "knocking birds out of trees" earlier, I think this bin would drop the raccons down LOL.

Six_Shooter
09-05-2012, 04:40 PM
would you be interested in tuning my car? and how much would you charge?
your near hamilton?

Yeah, about 15 minutes west of Hamilton.

You can PM me and we can discuss this. :)

85Z28NOS
09-05-2012, 06:27 PM
It really is sounding like you just have to much injector for your motor. As easy as it is to change them on the miniram its something you might want to consider. Im equally sure with enough time spent on the tune it can be made to run with the 30 lbs

1project2many
09-05-2012, 08:27 PM
Did u guys ever hear of Ed Wright from fastchip.com?

Yes. Back when the LT1 tunes were still new and exciting, I discovered that a tune done by Ed, supposedly based on a magical, mysterious GM engineering department experimental tune, wasn't more than a stock calibration. It seemed like a big mystery on the forums at the time. The key was adding four bytes to the calibration which for some reason weren't getting read out by the guys trying to read it back (they're not chips but flash based pcm's). Ed claimed it came off a GM service CD but I had (and still have) piles of those CD's and I never did find any mystery cal with the "engineering" byte set on them.



He told me that he doesn't use the moates adaptor and he makes his own prom's.

I also don't use a Moates adapter as almost all my hardware predates Moates' products by a couple of years. My eprom burner is so old it only works with DOS based software but it still "makes" proms ok.



He also said that he doesn't ship to Canada :(

I've almost stopped shipping to Canada as well. Canadians pay lower postage when shipping products to the US and they cannot believe it costs so much more for the same product to go back across the border. I've lost too much merchandise shipping to Canada uninsured yet I rarely find a Canadian willing to cover my cost to ship plus insurance, so I end up paying for insurance out of pocket to prevent a loss. I am continually asked to lie (can you call it a gift? or a product sample? so I don't have to pay extra) and I have been left on the hook for duties because a recipient refused to pay what was due and the shipping company back charged my credit card. All in all, I have unpleasant and sometimes unprofitable experiences shipping to Canada.



He said that he would use a $32 mask instead of a $6E because if you really know what you are doing them it is easy to shut off the 9th injector.
You're going to find that different tuners have different styles and approaches. I like to use the latest code to start with. GM spent a bunch of time writing $6E and testing it. The marketing department actually mentioned it in some of the sales literature. It literally cost GM millions to re-certify engines with new calibrations that were already certified with the old code. Why? They honestly felt there was enough improvement in driveability and emissions to justify it. Truth be told, you could remove all traces of EFI from your engine and install a carburetor. Your car would probably be on the road in less time with less hassle. Is it a step backward? Maybe. But is running "old" code when "new and improved" is available any different? And in that line of thought, the best results will ultimately be obtained with minimal cost and work by losing that '165 MAF equipped ecm and going to speed density. The MAF sensor is going to be useless or near useless at peak HP anyway. The only way to control fuel after that is the PE mode AFR change vs RPM table which is pretty crude stuff. If you choose to make changes that raise HP you'll only have more trouble with the MAF limitation.


APYUZZ4_01.bin that 1project2many posted, started but ran really rough and was bogging out when taking off and the engine light was on but I didn't even bother checking the code
Those two cals start because VATS is disabled. It's nice of you to test the driveability of the file I made, but all I asked was if it starts and runs. You made a huge assumption about trying to drive it.

Next step would be to check / confirm base timing setting at distributor. ZZ4 literature says base timing set at ten degrees. F car base timing set at six. Corvettes are either six or ten. ZZ4 comes with large cap HEI. F car has small cap. Maybe your car is aftermarket distributor? Maybe timing isn't at any stock setting? Actual driveability testing doesn't begin until after calibration and distributor are in agreement, a basic start-idle-shutdown sequence is logged, and any immediate trouble codes are resolved. This may seem like unnecessary work but this is what I do when a car is brought to me for tuning. If you look around you'll find plenty of this same type of stuff discussed in other threads as well. Get the foundation right before attempting to build anything.

As I said in the beginning I'm not going to fix your car for you but I'm more than willing to help you should you choose to do it yourself. I have no doubt that Six_Shooter will be able to fix up a tune or pinpoint anything which needs addressing before a tune can be finalized. If you find you want to try more DIY feel free to check back in.

ZEDRATED
09-06-2012, 02:18 PM
I did set base timing to 10 degrees and I have the large distributor cap which I believe was stock on the F cars until 87 which switched to the coil outside the distributor. Again, all these mechanical assumptions come down to them being there no matter what bin file is loaded in the computer. The car does run fine with the stock prom but obviously rich with the 30lb injectors. I will keep trying to play around for a bit and if I cannot figure it out then I will either bring it to six shooter or try a prom from Ed Wright.
Thanks.

1project2many
09-06-2012, 02:53 PM
I think you misunderstand. I'm not trying to diagnose why the chip I uploaded didn't run right. It was never intended to run right. It was only intended to start and run. Whether it ran well or poorly the test was "start and run." That cal has VATS (vehicle anti theft system) disabled. The stock files you tried had VATS enabled. Both of the cals you've uploaded have VATS disabled. If the car starts and runs with VATS disabled then we've found the answer to why the car wouldn't start on the stock $6E cals.

When I ask about distributor settings and distributor type I am asking for information. There are related values which need to be incorporated into a calibration to get the right results. Along with the initial spark angle there's also a table for spark latency which matches the type of distributor. Choose the wrong values and spark could be off quite a bit from what the cal says.

If you try any other cals, either $32 or $6E, ensure VATS is disabled.

ZEDRATED
09-06-2012, 08:13 PM
Ah ok. Will do. I shall try a few more I guess and try to get one that runs half decent to start and tweak it from there I guess.
Thanks.

ZEDRATED
09-08-2012, 08:17 PM
I tried a few more bins and tried playing around with no success. I know that you said that the custom bin 6.14.12 is not right for the car but it runs so good in closed loop with this bin and I figure, why not go with what works. Is there anything at all that I can do to this bin to get it to run better in open loop???
Thanks :rolleye:

1project2many
09-09-2012, 03:41 AM
The process is the same for every calibration. Drive, log, identify problem areas, change. Repeat as needed. I've identified a bunch of problem areas for you in that calibration. I can also tell you that in closed loop it does not drive all that well. The spark advance is too high in places and knocks badly. The AFR is all over the place with BLM cells 20-25% from where they should be. AE isn't right either.

What is "no success?" Cals won't start? Setting check engine lights? Driving poorly? If they start and drive that's not "No success." That's substantial progress over last week.

ZEDRATED
09-10-2012, 09:15 PM
"No success" means they run poorly. Very poor. I disabled VATS and they all start and run and I adjusted the injector constant to 30#. I think what I want to do from here is try to adjust my stock AUM bin and see how that goes. How do I shut off the 9th injector in the $32 mask?
Ed Wright said that he does it?
Thanks.

1project2many
09-10-2012, 09:28 PM
Ed Wright can do it because there's nothing to do. The ecm doesn't control the extra injector. It's attached to a temperature sensor. And you don't have one to worry about anyway.

ZEDRATED
09-11-2012, 04:19 PM
OK, sounds good, I am going to start to try to play around with this stock AUM bin file and take it from there. I'll post when I get a chance to do so.
Sounds like you have a bit of a beef with this Ed Wright guy? LOL.

1project2many
09-12-2012, 09:04 AM
Sounds like you have a bit of a beef with this Ed Wright guy? LOL.
Nope, no beef with the individual. I don't even know him. I tend take issue with practices that show up in the performance industry and especially around chip tuning. I believe in educating customers and answering questions honestly. With chip tuning a person usually decides very quickly whether or not they want to try burning their own. I didn't hear the conversation but if you were deliberately misled about the extra injector, that's not right. I've had my own experiences years ago that left a very bad impression. I got mad and decided I'd learn to do it myself. 20 years later and I've realized that tuning is one of those subjects that always has more to teach if you're interested in learning.

ZEDRATED
09-13-2012, 09:03 AM
I can appreaciate that. This Ed guy seem's to get very annoyed when I ask him a question and in the last email I sent him he just said "sorry I can't help you" when I wanted to fill out an order form.
He didn't want to ship to Canada and when I told him that I get have it shipped to my friends p.o box in Buffalo he then said we only ship UPS and they don't ship to p.o boxes, then I asked to ship USPS and it seemed like a burden to have to drive 20 minutes to the nearest post office. Then when I asked about the chip having the proper voltage corrections for my injectors he just said that the Accel injectors are made by Bosch and he said "why don't u get someone else to help u on this", "who told u that the voltage corrections is the problem with ur car", I said that I didn't say that was the problem, I just wanna make sure that the chip will be set up properly for my injectors and that's when he said: "I can't help u".

brianko
11-10-2012, 11:54 AM
When I tune cars on the street I use a WBO2 for reference, I don't believe in dyno tuning street cars, only race cars, sometimes, and dyno queens.

Inertia dynos, sure. But load dynos have their place. I'd like to see how you maintain constant RPM and change engine load on the street...

brianko
11-10-2012, 11:57 AM
Re: Accel 30# injector offset data. More of a note to myself than anything, seeing as how this thread is two months old:

http://www.chevytalk.org/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/247139/

Six_Shooter
11-10-2012, 03:05 PM
Inertia dynos, sure. But load dynos have their place. I'd like to see how you maintain constant RPM and change engine load on the street...

Easy, learn to look at what's not in the numbers that's being spit out of the ALDL. ;)

What I mean by that is, the numbers are not the "end all, be all" to tune from. There's a lot more to tuning than just going off some numbers on a display. ;)

efihead
11-10-2012, 04:24 PM
Hi ZEDRATED looks like there´s still some guessing in the injector side of your problem. Let me point you to an EFI calculator that may help, is no different from others online other than it fits inside your phone. Take a look.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.mexicanchevyshotmail.com.mexicanche vys.efimathandroid (http://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.mexicanchevyshotmail.com.mexicanche vys.efimathandroid)
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/efi-math-ipad-version/id573605062?ls=1&mt=8
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/efi-math/id571695726?mt=8&uo=4

hope it helps a bit.

brianko
11-10-2012, 05:41 PM
I was actually talking about the ability to hold a steady RPM and vary engine load, very essential for accurate partial throttle tuning, very difficult to achieve on the street. At best, street tuning requires very coarse-grained interpolation.

EagleMark
11-10-2012, 06:06 PM
It's not as hard as you think. Just takes more time, hills are your friend, lower tire pressure, some guys even pull a trailer, ride the brakes... getting some key data points and smoothing the tables.

Dynos are just to easy! :thumbsup:

Six_Shooter
11-10-2012, 10:04 PM
I was actually talking about the ability to hold a steady RPM and vary engine load, very essential for accurate partial throttle tuning, very difficult to achieve on the street. At best, street tuning requires very coarse-grained interpolation.

You sound like someone with little to no tuning experience who has only read internet lore.

I get part throttle tuning nailed pretty quickly, without a dyno.

Don't let internet myths confuse you, street tuning is one of the best ways to tune a street vehicle, by someone that knows what they are doing, which just takes experience.

As mark said there are ways to hold a steady RPM and change load, but it's not as necessary as you seem to believe to tune this way.

brianko
11-10-2012, 10:06 PM
You sound like someone with little to no tuning experience who has only read internet lore.

Actually, no. I've been tuning OBD2 stuff for years. Thought it was time to learn about the OBD1 stuff. But I'm not here to get into a pissing contest with you. You way works, my way works. I think we can leave it at that.

brianko
11-10-2012, 11:46 PM
Found some data on the 30# Accel injectors, not much to work from. Extrapolating the few values that are available results in these numbers:

25.6 0.00
24.0 0.00
22.4 0.00
20.8 0.00
19.2 0.00
17.6 0.00
16.0 0.00
14.4 0.00
12.8 0.00
11.2 0.00
9.6 732.43
8.0 1495.38
6.4 2807.66
4.8 4364.07
3.2 5981.53
1.6 732.43
0.0 701.91

(The last two values are a wag based upon the stock table...and yes, Accel says 0ms for anything above 11.2!)

At any rate, this table along with an 80% scaling of the BPW tables results in an idle of 14.7AFR and immediate startup.

Dewayne_S
11-11-2012, 05:14 PM
But I'm not here to get into a pissing contest with you.

Thank God for this. Pissing contests and smart ass remarks like "Do a search before you start a new thread" is a lot of why I stopped going to another well known and very popular site.

Personally I have never been around a Dyno, I would think it would be easier with such a controlled environment. All my tuning has been done on the street and track and I must say I have had really good luck getting it done.

EagleMark
11-11-2012, 05:45 PM
This may be the first misunderstanding between people here? We just don't do pissing contests here! So let's just let it go. Some times things just come out a little to blunt typing on the net, but never meant to stir the pot. I won't allow it!

Read any tuning book and you will see dyno tune is only way... well we know that is wrong but the people writing the books or ones with dynos have never had to work without a dyno.

Back to fun! :happy:

1project2many
11-11-2012, 08:25 PM
Thanks for posting those Accell numbers. Can you quote a source?


I was actually talking about the ability to hold a steady RPM and vary engine load, very essential for accurate partial throttle tuning, very difficult to achieve on the street. At best, street tuning requires very coarse-grained interpolation.

I imagine your local geography plays a major part in this thinking. In Texas the roads are probably as flat as the horizon and just as long, too. But in other areas there's enough hilly terrain to do this type of tuning quite thoroughly so the load dyno is more of a luxury than a necessity.

And of course there's always the old "Semi-trailer axle mounted in concrete with an air pressure regulator on the brakes" trick when the hills just won't work.
http://gallery.floridasupras.com/albums/userpics/normal_MVC-035S.JPG

BTW, Mark, you really should think about building one. Here's another success story:
http://jalopnik.com/5807502/how-to-build-your-own-dyno-for-just-2000/gallery/1

EagleMark
11-11-2012, 08:44 PM
If I had land I'd have built something long ago!

brianko
11-11-2012, 08:50 PM
Hey, it's a Dynojet! :)

Accel numbers came from this forum post:

http://www.chevytalk.org/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/247139/

The interpolation was my own...

1project2many
11-11-2012, 09:01 PM
If I had land I'd have built something long ago! Land??? You mean so you can recover parts without disturbing the neighbors? I'll offer some space out here. I'm on the side of a hill... the front yard looks perfect for that setup.


Accel numbers came from this forum post:

http://www.chevytalk.org/fusionbb/sh...hp?tid/247139/ (http://www.chevytalk.org/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/247139/)

You know, way back in the beginning of this thread I found that discussion and read through it at least twice. Read it again tonight, then again just now thinking "This guy's imagining things." Can't believe I missed this:

Called Accel EFI tech support and spoke to Dave. He said he gets the request for Off Time Data sheets fairly often for their Accel Injectors. However, they sheets do not exist. I convinced him to give me the voltage vs Msec from their DFI program. Here is what I got:

at 11.80 volts or higher = 0 MSEC
at 9.5 = .74
at 8.3 = 1.20
at 7.1 = 2.0

Glad I didn't decide to be a professional rattlesnake hunter. Sheesh...

ZEDRATED
11-25-2012, 06:42 PM
Hi all, damn email wouldn't send me notifications when you guys replied. I did a google search and I saw my thread come up and realized its very alive again after 2 months lol. Sound like a lot of hostility here lol.
Six shooter, I wanted to bring my car to you to tune but you never emailed me back. I know have it put away for the winter and I won't be playing around with it until the spring. The computer is still hanging on my passenger floor for 3 months now lol.
1project2many, are those the right voltage correction tables? Would you be interested in tuning my car in the spring?
My cousin referred me to a dyno tuning shop out here in oakvile named Neetronics, a fellow named Andy said he has a guy to dyno tune my car with a wideband o2 sensor and I was going to bring it there in the spring. I do appreciate all I have learned here off you guys.
Thanks.

1project2many
11-25-2012, 07:38 PM
1project2many, are those the right voltage correction tables? Would you be interested in tuning my car in the spring?

I don't know. They are the only values we have with nothing to compare to.

Sorry, but I'm not able to take on the job of tuning your car.

ZEDRATED
11-25-2012, 08:12 PM
Ok. No problem. I will see how it goes at the tuning shop near me in the spring. He said anywhere from 2-4 hours so if I can get it running good for under $500, I'll be very happy. I'll post back here in the spring after I go to him.
Thanks.

EagleMark
11-25-2012, 08:20 PM
Inertia dynos, sure. But load dynos have their place. I'd like to see how you maintain constant RPM and change engine load on the street...


Easy, learn to look at what's not in the numbers that's being spit out of the ALDL. ;)

What I mean by that is, the numbers are not the "end all, be all" to tune from. There's a lot more to tuning than just going off some numbers on a display. ;)
You can get good data points, filter some items and finish building the table. Wideband will confirm final tune. Go to dyno and be within 5%. :thumbsup:

Six_Shooter
11-25-2012, 08:39 PM
Yeah, life has gotten extremely busy due to school, and have had zero time to do much of anything else, I apologize for not getting back to you, but using someone closer I think would be a better option anyway.

I haven't even had a chance to even look at my own car since the beginning of October, literally, just opening the door to the garage to peek at it takes up more time that I seem to have anymore. I need to get it running properly, since there's a guy that wants to buy most of the parts I won't be using in the long run. If school wasn't so important, I'd have a lot more done by now. :/

ZEDRATED
08-03-2013, 03:42 PM
Here I am back after a long time. Took my car into a tuning shop and he said he got the $32 stock bin adjusted pretty good with the car making about 300hp at the wheels. The problem he said is that when he goes leaner than about 13.8/13.9 that the car starts to misfire and the car smells like raw fuel even more. This seems kinda wiered to me but I have to go there Monday and take the car for a spin and try it out. The other problem which I want opinions on here is he said my throttle seems nice and easy to open when the car is off but really hard when it's running and said that it is hard to control the car and said it seems like the throttle body open all in one shot. He said that this seems to be a common problem when researching online but I couldn't find anything online about this. Anyone have an opinion with throttle body issues? I have a 1000cfm BBK with a TPIS mini ram intake. Could it be a throttle body problem or a peddle problem on my 3rd gen CAMARO? Anyone???

Six_Shooter
08-03-2013, 05:06 PM
There's ZERO reason why it should need to run anything richer than 14.7 (or so) for idle and cruise. Sounds like there's some other adjustments to be made, like some timing in those areas.

The throttle body thing could be normal, but then again, it could be worn shaft/body. I know on some cars I've driven, mostly TBI, mind you, I have experienced something similar, throttle easy to move when engine is off, but when running with high vacuum the throttle becomes a little more stiff, with no mechanical issues to be found.

ZEDRATED
08-03-2013, 06:28 PM
Great to be back on the forum. The tuner said that when he goes leaner closer to 14.7 he says that the car starts to missfire and then it smells even more like raw fuel, this seems a little weird to me. He said he is going to give me the bin file once I pick up the car, he also disabled the O2 as of right now because I have a wiring problem that I have to fix but he said that the O2 won't make much a difference but I will fix the wiring that burnt on the header and put closed loop at a lower temp once I get the car back. I will post the bin file up here for you all to have a look and see what you think. With my previous bins that I posted most of you all said that the car will run really rich with those bin files and knock birds out of trees hahahaha. Hope it doesn't once I get the car back, I really do not want a rich condition on idle and cruise speeds as the car stinks with the stock AUM bin with the 30lb injectors. With the other bin that I had custom made the car runs great when warm but on cold start it runs awful, bogs out when releasing the clutch.
Thanks.

Six_Shooter
08-03-2013, 09:48 PM
Do you have a high overlap cam?

That's about the only thing I can think of that might cause a symptom like you describe. Having said that, I've tuned some pretty non EFI friendly cams, and was able to get 14.7 or leaner without missfire.

ZEDRATED
08-04-2013, 02:54 AM
It is the GM hot cam for the ZZ4 crate motor

1project2many
08-04-2013, 06:12 AM
That's a very mild cam with zero overlap. It should be very easy to tune.

ZEDRATED
08-04-2013, 07:03 AM
So any reason why my tuner is saying that when he tries to go leaner towards 14.7 he says that the car misfires.

EagleMark
08-04-2013, 08:33 AM
Here I am back after a long time. Took my car into a tuning shop and he said he got the $32 stock bin adjusted pretty good with the car making about 300hp at the wheels. The problem he said is that when he goes leaner than about 13.8/13.9 that the car starts to misfire and the car smells like raw fuel even more. This seems kinda wiered to me but I have to go there Monday and take the car for a spin and try it out. The other problem which I want opinions on here is he said my throttle seems nice and easy to open when the car is off but really hard when it's running and said that it is hard to control the car and said it seems like the throttle body open all in one shot. He said that this seems to be a common problem when researching online but I couldn't find anything online about this. Anyone have an opinion with throttle body issues? I have a 1000cfm BBK with a TPIS mini ram intake. Could it be a throttle body problem or a peddle problem on my 3rd gen CAMARO? Anyone???The throttle sticky when car is running and not sticky when car is off... is... wait for it....

The throttle blades are not open far enough or closed completely and all air is going through IAC. Look at IAC counts and I'll bet they are high!

As for the AFR? Well that's a big subject and with a modified engine it may not like Stoich/14.7 to 1 especially at idle and for the most part big cams are lying to the narrow band O2 sensor at idle anyway, hence the need for OL Idle. Unless your going out of your way for non ethonol it's not 14.7 to 1 AFR anyway... E fuel is closer to 14.13, for more read here:
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?1741-AFR-Gasoline-E10-Wide-Band-02-sensor-tuning-using-Lambda

Six_Shooter
08-04-2013, 09:29 AM
I live in the same area and in every engine I've tuned 14.7:1 is not an issue with the E10 fuel we have. While it may theoretically not be "stoich" many engines seem to have no problem running around that.

ZEDRATED
08-04-2013, 10:49 AM
@Six Shooter, are you in Hamilton? Would you still be interested in tuning my car if this fellow can't get it right? Do you have experience with 3rd gen Camaro's? I welded a bung right after the y-pipe connects. The car does run good but like I said my main concern is the richness. I don't want to wear a gas mask everytime I drive the car lol. @EagleMark, what you said sounds right but I adjusted the IAC properly, maybe I'll go a little higher with the adjuster screw and run the IAC counts a little lower instead of 30-50 maybe around 20. I dunno.

Six_Shooter
08-04-2013, 03:10 PM
I'm in Brantford, about 20 minutes from Hamilton, IIRC, you are in the Barrie area?

The IAC counts should be around the 25 to 35 mark.

I can definitely give you a hand to tune it. I'll just say that I've tuned some ECMs that were used in the third gens, but I mostly work with conversions. ;)

ZEDRATED
08-04-2013, 03:19 PM
I am in Vaughan. 30 minutes south of Barrie. I am going to Oalville tomorrow afternoon to take my car for spin and pay the tuner. If I am not happy with the tune I will tell him, he said he will give me the bin file on a USB stick as well so I can share that here once I get it. He said that he has to run the car a little rich for it to run good, around 13.9 or so, he also said that he is convinced that I have a throttle body problem but the car has a BBK 1000cfm throttle body with very little usage on it. I will check the IAC count tomorrow again as well. Thanks.

EagleMark
08-04-2013, 05:02 PM
I live in the same area and in every engine I've tuned 14.7:1 is not an issue with the E10 fuel we have. While it may theoretically not be "stoich" many engines seem to have no problem running around that.I agree, even in a fine tune at idle and WB it's a mid point between high and low AFR and should run fine with in 1...?

But his throttle blade sticking when engine is running really leads to blades are shut! Engine vacuum is sucking them shut and it takes a hard push on gas pedal to snap open. So this means the only air at idle is IAC... which would be horrible.

ZEDRATED
08-04-2013, 05:58 PM
So the tuner says hahahaha, I set the IAC motor to 30 counts so it should be fine. He says that when he goes leaner that there is more vacuum and it is sucking the plates shut.

ZEDRATED
08-05-2013, 06:23 AM
Question, to disable the O2 sensor, is it as simple as setting the closed loop temperature all the way up? Is that all closed loop does is look at the O2 sensor in my application? Would anything else be affected or just the O2 be disabled? Thanks.

ZEDRATED
08-05-2013, 06:25 AM
Question, to shut off the O2 sensor is it as simple as setting the closed loop temp all the way up? Is that all closed loop does in my application is look at the O2 sensor? Would anything else be affected other than the O2?

ZEDRATED
08-05-2013, 06:28 AM
Also, my tuner had told me that the car gets a prom ID code when using the 6E mask file that I posted earlier. I never realized this because I never checked for codes because the engine light would never come on with that bin file loaded. Is this code normal when switching from $32 to $6E with my16198259 computer? Would it be fine to use even though it has that code?

ZEDRATED
08-05-2013, 07:09 PM
And would the O2 sensor being disabled be a good idea for my application?

Six_Shooter
08-05-2013, 07:12 PM
Closed loop is nice for economy.

ZEDRATED
08-05-2013, 07:19 PM
Finally got the car back, raised the stop screw on the idle with my tuner and it seemed a bit better. The car seems to run pretty good, will try a cold start tomorrow. After looking at the bin created opposed to stock is that my only concern is that my tuner did not change the spark advance base from 6 degrees to 10 and did not adjust the spark advance tables at all. He told me that when he added or took away that the car actually lost some power. It was dyno'd with 293 rwhp and 317 ft of torque with the attached bin file. I am happy with those numbers but maybe if the spark advance tables would have been played with then maybe we could have sqeezed a little more power. I took it for a drive with him and the wideband hooked up and it seems to idle at about 13.9-14.2, he said any leaner and the car starts to misfire. Can you guys please have a look at the bin file and let me know what you guys think? Hope my $600 dollars was put to good use, found it a little steep but what can I do.

ZEDRATED
08-05-2013, 07:22 PM
The car was tuned based on the stock AUM file, he said that running a $6E mask had the prom ID code and he said that he didn't want any codes and there are more things you can do with the $6E but nothing drastic (more flags and tables). Thanks for looking.

EagleMark
08-06-2013, 07:15 PM
So the tuner says hahahaha, I set the IAC motor to 30 counts so it should be fine. He says that when he goes leaner that there is more vacuum and it is sucking the plates shut.Tell him I said hahaha BS!


Also, my tuner had told me that the car gets a prom ID code when using the 6E mask file that I posted earlier. I never realized this because I never checked for codes because the engine light would never come on with that bin file loaded. Is this code normal when switching from $32 to $6E with my16198259 computer? Would it be fine to use even though it has that code?There's no such thing as a Prom ID code! There is a Error code 51 for Prom. When set there is something wrong with chip... and of course you'll have codes set if he tunes a $32 bin file with a $6E mask!


The car was tuned based on the stock AUM file, he said that running a $6E mask had the prom ID code and he said that he didn't want any codes and there are more things you can do with the $6E but nothing drastic (more flags and tables). Thanks for looking.Well AUM is a old bin file from 1986 is mask ID $32 so you have to use a $32 mask to make changes to the chip/bin file.

If you want to use $6E mask? Well then you need to start with a $6E bin file! Can't use one bin and another mask, just won't work... so why not start with a AUJM $6E bin file that was updated in 1990?


Finally got the car back, raised the stop screw on the idle with my tuner and it seemed a bit better. The car seems to run pretty good, will try a cold start tomorrow. After looking at the bin created opposed to stock is that my only concern is that my tuner did not change the spark advance base from 6 degrees to 10 and did not adjust the spark advance tables at all. He told me that when he added or took away that the car actually lost some power. It was dyno'd with 293 rwhp and 317 ft of torque with the attached bin file. I am happy with those numbers but maybe if the spark advance tables would have been played with then maybe we could have sqeezed a little more power. I took it for a drive with him and the wideband hooked up and it seems to idle at about 13.9-14.2, he said any leaner and the car starts to misfire. Can you guys please have a look at the bin file and let me know what you guys think? Hope my $600 dollars was put to good use, found it a little steep but what can I do.No your $600 was not put to good use if your still running Open Loop, sticky throttle and driveability issues!!! You can demand your $600 back or your car fixed! Why would anyone pay any amount for something not fixed? You paid for a tune and all you get is lame excuses? Wrong AFR, sticky throttle and since he could not fix anything stuck it in Open Loop? That is not a tune!

Six_Shooter
08-06-2013, 07:28 PM
You know, I hadn't considered that the tuner might have been trying to tune a $32 bin with the $6E mask/ecu/xdf, that kinda makes sense now.

I do agree that seems like a lot of money for something not complete, or sounds not complete by the description.

ZEDRATED
08-06-2013, 08:11 PM
He didn't try to make an AUM file with a $6E mask. He said that there is an error code 51 for the the $6E bin tha I previously posted here. What could be the sticky throttle problem?, AFR seems pretty good as I don't get the car smelling like raw fuel like it used to. Can you guys have a look at the bin I posted and compare it to te stock AUM bin and see what you think?
@EagleMark, you previously stated that 14.2 AFR for 10% ethanol fuel is correct?

Six_Shooter
08-06-2013, 08:40 PM
I compared the tuned bin and the stock bin. The changes sorta remind me of mail order what Superchips and Hypertech used to sell back in the day. It isn't, they had different and a few less changes than this bin does.

There's no reason that there should be a PROM error, if a matching $6E bin and $6E XDF was used, that just doesn't make sense.

ZEDRATED
08-06-2013, 09:05 PM
Other than that does the bin look good to work with my setup? The car does seem to run pretty good so why even bother with a $6E bin? Does 293 RWHP seem about right with what I have under the hood plus a tremic TKO transmission and a 4:10 gear. It made a nice torque curve of about 317ftpounds steady. I don't have a lot of that raw fuel smell llike I had before. It's sometimes there a little bit but I can handle it and my catalytic coverter is punched out as well so a little smell is expected.

EagleMark
08-06-2013, 09:22 PM
Well your Open Loop all the time?

Your desired idle speed table is whacky and I don't know what the goal is there? So lets just go with warmed up at 900 RPM over a stock bin of 750 RPM which would have been fine with your cam if spark advance was added for idle.

I don't understand BPW table changes?

MAF table 1 and 2 were changed so that cover low RPM... 3,4,5 are untouched?

"Injector PW Correction Vs. Battery Voltage " is changed, but I don't know to what injector. You said you had 30lb injectors and that is not what injector size is set to?

Some guys only care what the top number from a dyno is? That's called a PE Rape tune! Me? I really don't care unless it's a race car, who cares what top HP and Tq is if the car does not drive well and for some reason can't go Closed loop when it should? And who wants to drive a car with a sticky throttle when it's running?

Six_Shooter
08-06-2013, 09:38 PM
Well your Open Loop all the time?

Your desired idle speed table is whacky and I don't know what the goal is there? So lets just go with warmed up at 900 RPM over a stock bin of 750 RPM which would have been fine with your cam if spark advance was added for idle.

I don't understand BPW table changes?

MAF table 1 and 2 were changed so that cover low RPM... 3,4,5 are untouched?

"Injector PW Correction Vs. Battery Voltage " is changed, but I don't know to what injector. You said you had 30lb injectors and that is not what injector size is set to?

Some guys only care what the top number from a dyno is? That's called a PE Rape tune! Me? I really don't care unless it's a race car, who cares what top HP and Tq is if the car does not drive well and for some reason can't go Closed loop when it should? And who wants to drive a car with a sticky throttle when it's running?

I noticed those same changes and was equally perplexed why only the MAF 1 and 2 tables were modified.

ZEDRATED
08-06-2013, 11:09 PM
I am not sure why only the first two MAF tables were changed but like I said the car does seem to run well. The throttle isn't to bad now that we opened up the screw and adjusted the TPS. I am going to put the idle at 850 which the car seems to like. My main question is: the base timimg was left at 6 in the bin instead of being changed to 10 and the spark advance table was left alone but again, the car does run good and makes good power so having said that, do you think the spark advance tables are ok where they are?
Thanks.

ZEDRATED
08-06-2013, 11:13 PM
As for open loop all the time, I was speaking to a well knowledge tuner out in New Jersey a while ago and he said they always disable the O2's on these cars which means they would run the bin in open loop all the time.

EagleMark
08-07-2013, 07:08 AM
I am not sure why only the first two MAF tables were changed but like I said the car does seem to run well. The throttle isn't to bad now that we opened up the screw and adjusted the TPS. I am going to put the idle at 850 which the car seems to like. My main question is: the base timimg was left at 6 in the bin instead of being changed to 10 and the spark advance table was left alone but again, the car does run good and makes good power so having said that, do you think the spark advance tables are ok where they are?
Thanks.Oh I see... I told you what was wrong with your sticky throttle when engine was running, your tuner said to me hahaha... then you did what I said and it worked?

So base timing in bin is 6*? Your distributor is set to 10*? So you have added 4* to entire timing table that the ECM knows nothing about? Looking at your timing table in high RPM deceleration the timing is already MAX capable of distributor and you have 4* more so you'll be firing the wrong cylinder... How does that sound like a good plan? You spent $600 on a tune that used the oldest cheapest trick in book to increase power improperly?

Are you recording data to see what is going on? Are you sure your knock sensor is working properly?


As for open loop all the time, I was speaking to a well knowledge tuner out in New Jersey a while ago and he said they always disable the O2's on these cars which means they would run the bin in open loop all the time.No, that means they don't know how to tune the car properly and the only way they can get it to run decent is by disabling CL feedback! I can tune a motor with your specs in Closed Loop! Why can't they?

So they tune a car Open Loop on a 70 degree day and it's spot on right? So only drive the car on 70 degree days and all is well? Hotter and colder days don't matter? Why would you want the car to run good on all days? Why would you want it to be efficiently adjusted all the time? Carburetor didn't so why should EFI?

xtreamvette69
08-07-2013, 07:23 AM
well i dont want to seem too critical as im still new around here, but i cant belive others here havent pointed this out... first before a tune should be correctly matched parts. sorry, ive been reading this a while now and all i keep seeing is 350 and 30# injectors and my brain jus registers why.

mostly i see whoever put that engine combo together bought parts that seemed impressive rather then to buy parts that matched the engine combo. i mean really 30#injectors and a 1000cfm 58mm throttle body seems way overkill and mismatched, thats like putting a 750 double pump carb on a stock 305 and wondering why it doesnt run right.

no offense and i hope you dont take this observation wrong or to heart but seems most of your tunning issues (battles) are mostly because your base engine/mechanical parts dont match, efi or carbed is all the same when the parts dont match most the effort to get it tuned is wasted on compremises just to get it to run rather then to get it to run great when using correctly matched parts..

tbh i would have probably ditched the accel injectors for a set of 24# bosch III's and 52mm throttle body and i bet half your struggles would go away and your tunes would be way more easily successfull.

just my 2 cents best of luck with it though

also i saw you mentioning why would you want to go with the $6e over what your using , well obviously gm thought there was enough improvment with that file that they bothered upgrading to it.. its pretty much the standard for the 165 f and y maf cars used by tuners. also have you seen how aggressive the spark table is on like the ARAP for $6e as opposed to some of the older files, that alone would be worth it as a great start point although idk without aluminum heads if it would be freindly in stock form. guess it would depend how much compression you have and how much you lose with the cam to know how much advance your engine could take.

Six_Shooter
08-07-2013, 07:31 AM
FWIW, I drove my car for about 4 years in OL. Until this summer when I took the car on a 3 hour trip (one way). My tune wass very good in most areas, usually in the mid 14s or leaner while in steady state cruise. I did have it tuned as lean as 16:1 at one point for, in steady state cruise. But that night I had to drive at 60 MPH or below, otherwise my AFRs would go well into the 13s or 12s. Well me being a miser, and not wanting to wash down my cylinders decided it was time to once again try out CL. So I pulled over, pulled fuel out of some of the rich areas, and turned on CL. I have been driving in CL ever since, and it's been great. Well, I did go to open loop for a bit after swapping to much larger injectors that needed more time than I have to tune them in, so I'm back to the original injectors. The only reason I didn't go to CL sooner was because I tried CL early on in my car, and the tune wasn't close enough, so it may drivability poor. I had always intended to turn it on sooner, just never got around to it.

What I find is that many "tuners" believe they are tuning race cars, most race cars don't need CL. Sure they may say to you "This is a street tune", but in the back of their minds they know they are tuning like it's a race car.

Six_Shooter
08-07-2013, 07:36 AM
well i dont want to seem too critical as im still new around here, but i cant belive others here havent pointed this out... first before a tune should be correctly matched parts. sorry, ive been reading this a while now and all i keep seeing is 350 and 30# injectors and my brain jus registers why.

mostly i see whoever put that engine combo together bought parts that seemed impressive rather then to buy parts that matched the engine combo. i mean really 30#injectors and a 1000cfm 58mm throttle body seems way overkill and mismatched, thats like putting a 750 double pump carb on a stock 305 and wondering why it doesnt run right.

no offense and i hope you dont take this observation wrong or to heart but seems most of your tunning issues (battles) are mostly because your base engine/mechanical parts dont match, efi or carbed is all the same when the parts dont match most the effort to get it tuned is wasted on compremises just to get it to run rather then to get it to run great when using correctly matched parts..

tbh i would have probably ditched the accel injectors for a set of 24# bosch III's and 52mm throttle body and i bet half your struggles would go away and your tunes would be way more easily successfull.

just my 2 cents best of luck with it though

also i saw you mentioning why would you want to go with the $6e over what your using , well obviously gm thought there was enough improvment with that file that they bothered upgrading to it.. its pretty much the standard for the 165 f and y maf cars used by tuners. also have you seen how aggressive the spark table is on like the ARAP for $6e as opposed to some of the older files, that alone would be worth it as a great start point although idk without aluminum heads if it would be freindly in stock form. guess it would depend how much compression you have and how much you lose with the cam to know how much advance your engine could take.

Good points.

I've never understood the 1000 CFM throttle body upgrades for the TPS, when the throttle body has never been the restriction, it's been the runners and base plate that are limiting breathing capability.

This relates to my "I'm building/tuning a race car" mentality. I see so many people who install huge throttle bodies, huge exhaust, big brakes, all of the aftermarket goodies, just to drive near the speed limit on the street with no intention of actually racing the car at a track where the parts might actually be useful. They then wonder why their "Race prepped street car" doesn't perform as well as less modified or even stock versions of the same car.

EagleMark
08-07-2013, 07:46 AM
:jfj:

Finally some good common sense! :thumbsup:

xtreamvette69
08-07-2013, 07:57 AM
agreed to everything you said six_shooter i see alot of that on vette forums but mostly on the camaro forums (biggest race parts on near stock street cars) i guess people like throwing out those impressive big number parts, my favorit is the ones that put the huge loppy cams in there tuned port engines because they like it sounding tough then find out there came starts where the rest of the motor is done lol

and thanks eaglemark , just glad nobody thought i was too critical but i been itching to post here a while now.
i dont know much about tuning computers yet but i do know a bit about engine combos, basic old school stuff before all this tech. lol

EagleMark
08-07-2013, 08:05 AM
and thanks eaglemark , just glad nobody thought i was too critical but i been itching to post here a while now.
i dont know much about tuning computers yet but i do know a bit about engine combos, basic old school stuff before all this tech. lolHeck I thought it was a great post! Keep it up and don't hold back.

We're pretty open here to all views and opinions, although a lot are just plain wrong and we try and get back to facts instead of internet rumors and BS...

ZEDRATED
08-07-2013, 08:10 AM
@EagleMark, the tuner didn't say hahaha to what you said, you misunderstood me. I was just laughing because my tuner said that the iac wasn't set up right but I had set it right. As for closed loop on this car with the one wire O2 sensor only on the left bank of the engine, I don't think disabling it is a really big deal. What if for some reason the right bank misfires or runs richer than the left for some reason, it'll never be picked up. We used a wideband connected right where the y-pipe meets so I think we got the AFR ready off both bangs when the tune was done. As long as my car runs good that is all that matters. I will drive it around for the next little while and if I am not happy with the way it runs then I'll bring the car back.

ZEDRATED
08-07-2013, 08:12 AM
Also, I don't think 30lb injectors are overkill for a motor making over 350HP. 24lb injectors would not deliver enough fuel at WOT!

xtreamvette69
08-07-2013, 08:34 AM
eliminating the o2 sensor is kinda like making your car into a none efi tbh except with more electronic gismos around on it, thats basically how they ran engines before fuel injection .. sure it still has some feedback for self adjustment but the o2 is one of the most important for drivability and economy of a street car.

and belive me you dont have more engine there then 24# injectors could happily handle.. start talking stroker with mods and i will say 30# is where you should be looking.

now dont get me wrong i'm not saying they wont work, i'm just saying there not best suited for your engine not even going to mention how fuel atamization is soo important and when running injuctors that are too large will ruin atamization.

let me explain.. big injectors have a big hole and smaller injectors of course a smaller hole. now when running too big of injectors you will run rich and need to adjust there pulse rate down and or run less pressure or both.

now lets visualize this big hole with little pressure= a wet puddly squirtlike a fire hose or one of them squirt bottles set on stream
littler hole higher pressure= nice mist like the sprayer on a garden hose or one of those squirt bottles set on mist

now wich do you suppose burns faster, cleaner and makes more power?
which do you suppose burns slower, less efficiantly, not as completly and makes less power not to mention passes more unburnt raw fuel to the exhaust?

like i said not trying to pick or be critical here were just all here to learn and i just wanted to point out faults as i see them.

30# will easily handle 450HP+ when you figure they usually will flow 36# @ 58# without even going past 80% duty cycle and those specs are where the 30# would be having nice atamization as well.

many corvettes rolled out of the gm assembly plants sporting 400+ HP and still running under 30# injectors

EagleMark
08-07-2013, 09:35 AM
@EagleMark, the tuner didn't say hahaha to what you said, you misunderstood me. I was just laughing because my tuner said that the iac wasn't set up right but I had set it right. Oh! OK...


As for closed loop on this car with the one wire O2 sensor only on the left bank of the engine, I don't think disabling it is a really big deal. What if for some reason the right bank misfires or runs richer than the left for some reason, it'll never be picked up. Yup it's an old system but it worked! Newer systems do have O2 sensors in both banks. Do you think GM and every car company in the world added another O2 sensor because it did not work or because it worked well? The other reason there are now O2 sensors in both banks is newer PCMs can adjust fueling in both banks, yours can not so only one O2 sensor is needed. If you have a problem on the other bank it is a techs job to diagnose it. There is no MisFire detection on your system like there is on newer dual bank fueling dual O2 sensor systems.


Also, I don't think 30lb injectors are overkill for a motor making over 350HP. 24lb injectors would not deliver enough fuel at WOT!I think the real issue is Accell 30LB injectors suck and they won't even give the needed Batt voltage offsets needed for the tune to be properly calibrated. I've done 2 sets now and it's to much work/fudging to get things right and will never do another tune with these injectors.

ZEDRATED
08-07-2013, 10:38 AM
I forgot to mension that my tuner said that when it was going into closed loop that it was doing funny things and the O2 was either running rich or lean, can't remember which way but I then looked at the wire heading down and sure enough it was burnt because it was touching the header. When I get some time I am going to repair that wire and could I not just set the closed loop temp back down to normal and would it be fine? Can't I just do that. Would the O2 just do some fine tuning to the open loop settings?

EagleMark
08-07-2013, 11:12 AM
I forgot to mension that my tuner said that when it was going into closed loop that it was doing funny things and the O2 was either running rich or lean, can't remember which way but I then looked at the wire heading down and sure enough it was burnt because it was touching the header.
If he noticed something wrong with an O2 sensor reading it should have been looked into and fixed. Pretty simple to see a burnt O2 sensor wire if your O2 sensor reading is wrong... ahh never mind just turn it off! That's the icing on cake for me that this guy is worthless and just took your money! There's a big difference in it runs and it runs right!

You could try to enable CL by lowering temp, but how are you going to burn a chip? I doubt you'll have much luck. In the $32 XDF the parameters needed for adjustment for cam and headers are not there. No one has worked on $32 much and even TunerCat does not have them. Reason being is there is no need to. Just swap in a $6E bin file and use the mask/XDF that is ready to use. It was GMs update and enhanced version of a very early system.

These masks are not my strong points and the reason I did not want to do your tune by mail. If the vehicle was left with me I would have, things like throttle blade adjustment or sticky throttle and burnt O2 sensor wires are so easy to fix in person. But at this rate I could have made half what he did and you'd still be way better off...

These situations just really PISS ME OFF! We end up helping people like you that have spent hard earned money and get nothing but poor quality in return. In the last 6 months or so that I decided to do mail order tunes most of my work is fixing other tuners work! The people are very spectacle of paying again and I have done quit a few with "Pay at end if your happy!" So far everyone has paid!

On the other hand you came here for info and we were willing to teach, but that was not your goal. You could have spent half what you did and had all the equipment you needed to do this yourself. I'm really sorry we failed helping you, we also recommended a tuner hands on... sorry.

ZEDRATED
08-07-2013, 11:35 AM
Well I have a chip burner and 2 chips. I also have a cable so I can datalog.

ZEDRATED
08-07-2013, 11:48 AM
@eaglemark, would you be willing to write me a $6E bin file that would work? No mailing necessary as all would need to do is burn it myself on a chip. What would you charge me? I guess I could always get a wideband O2 sensor as well as I welded the bung in already.

xtreamvette69
08-07-2013, 11:57 AM
can i ask you what you have your base ignition timing set to, with the advance wire disconnected of course. also what did you set your base idle to and was that with the iac in closed and parked position(unhooked while closed)?
and your zz4 crate has the al. heads and 10:1 comp correct?

without an o2 sensor you wouldnt be able to test out anything more then open loop though but that was your original complaint anyhow.

i,m betting even a noob like me could set ya up with a decent base chip, if your game and have lappy hooked to it durring testin watching for knock or lean and answer those questions and i would pop up a base chip for you to try when i get a min.

i'm betting some will chuckle at this with my extream lack of experiance to tuning but i'm figuring if i can get you a chip remotly close it may encourage you to try and work with it. if you arent game thats ok too, no problem.

noobz helpin noobz thats what its all about

but for god sake please replace that o2 there cheap

ZEDRATED
08-07-2013, 12:09 PM
Base timing set to 10 degrees, yes aluminum heads and 10:1 compression.
As for the idle, I just set the IAC to 30 counts and the TPS inbetween .5-.69 volts.
What do you mean by base Idle?

ZEDRATED
08-07-2013, 12:11 PM
Oh and it has the GM hot cam in it.

xtreamvette69
08-07-2013, 12:19 PM
base idle= the proper way to set up your base idle/iac:
jumper A and B on your aldl diag plug....turn key on engine off... wit 30 seconds or more(this sets iac to full closed).....go out and unplug your iac....unjumper the aldl.....start car and set base idle in drive with park brake on(should say base timing on a tag under the hood, prob on radiator support but with cam you may have to set it a bit higher, 700rpm may be good).......when done shut off engine go out and plug in iac and clear codes(unhook batt for few mins)... min idle is properly set...

now set your tps to .54 as it changed when you set min idle

xtreamvette69
08-07-2013, 12:21 PM
yep decent lift cam but not alot of durr, shouldnt be big problems 219/228@50 dur and 525/525 lift 112 lsa right?

that cam should bleed of some of that compression nicely

ZEDRATED
08-07-2013, 12:37 PM
The car is not Auto, it's a 5 speed originally auto. How should I set the base idle now? lol
The can specs are all online. Just google GM hot cam for ZZ4 350.

EagleMark
08-07-2013, 12:37 PM
base idle= the proper way to set up your base idle/iac:
jumper A and B on your aldl diag plug....turn key on engine off... wit 30 seconds or more(this sets iac to full closed).....go out and unplug your iac....unjumper the aldl.....start car and set base idle in drive with park brake on(should say base timing on a tag under the hood, prob on radiator support but with cam you may have to set it a bit higher, 700rpm may be good).......when done shut off engine go out and plug in iac and clear codes(unhook batt for few mins)... min idle is properly set...

now set your tps to .54 as it changed when you set min idleThis is factory way to set and the first time I have seen anyone include a very major point to doing it this way.
".start car and set base idle in drive with park brake on"

The goal is 100 RPM under base idle setting to let as much air past throttle blades as possible and still have IAC control idle

The other issue is doing this procedure is..... must be done with engine fully warmed up, CL and I like after a drive. The way to double check and my short cut is at end of a log check IAC counts in drive under 30 for MPFI and at least some in Park/Neutral.

ZEDRATED
08-07-2013, 01:03 PM
Again, my car is manual so I am just going to do it the short cut way lol.
What should my IAC counts be in neutral obviously, with a fully warmed engine?

EagleMark
08-07-2013, 01:17 PM
As long as it has some... 10 to 30? Do A data log and leave a minute at end of idle. If you change Base Idle RPM then IAC counts will change, now your going to start with $6E and a proper bin file this is not crucial... unless your throttle is still hard/sticking when engine is running. IAC count at end of log will show what I've been describing as sticky throttle issue.

Just found another issue with your starter tune! AUM is an Auto Trans bin file.... I would have suggested $6E bin of AUJM. But now we know your car is a manual trans... F car manual would be APYS.

There are big differences in Auto to Manual bin files and starting with the right one is a better plan...

I'm glad xtremevette69 is helping you! This is what this site is all about! I always like to help, but like I said $6E is not something I'm confident with so I'll be in for the learning too!

ZEDRATED
08-07-2013, 01:39 PM
I don't think it would affect the tune. The AUM bin is stock on this car as it was originally a 305 Auto. Not a big deal if you still have an auto Bin file using a manual for a car this old as the computer doesn't control much in terms of transmission.

EagleMark
08-07-2013, 02:14 PM
Your assuming something that I stated as fact is wrong?


There are big differences in Auto to Manual bin files and starting with the right one is a better plan...


I'll list a few and let me know which ones don't matter?

Idle
IAC control
DCEL
DFCO
AE
PE
etc...

Now if you don't mind things not being perfect and it runs OK? Then your right, no effects...

ZEDRATED
08-07-2013, 02:36 PM
Idle and IAC is easily obtained.

EagleMark
08-07-2013, 04:02 PM
OK, have it your way...

ZEDRATED
08-07-2013, 04:32 PM
:-) :-)

ZEDRATED
08-07-2013, 05:01 PM
Im just trying to datalog and set up the IAC counts but I cannot find an adx definition file to download for the $32 bin. Does anyone have it here or have a link to where I can download it please? Thanks

Six_Shooter
08-07-2013, 05:02 PM
:yikes:

I always find it entertaining when someone who doesn't do their own work in what ever area being discussed tries to inform someone who DOES perform work in that area, that something is not as it is.

Yes, starting with a manual bin would probably help solve a lot of problems, not to mention repairing existing mechanical issues, BEFORE tuning starts.

Take it from someone who has used automatic bins in manual vehicles, there are a lot of difference, even without the ECM trying to control the transmission.

Knowing what we know now, and seeing how little was changed in the bin, fixing the O2 sensor before hand might have solved a lot of problems to start with.

Six_Shooter
08-07-2013, 05:05 PM
Im just trying to datalog and set up the IAC counts but I cannot find an adx definition file to download for the $32 bin. Does anyone have it here or have a link to where I can download it please? Thanks

The ones in these threads don't work for you?

http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?367-1227165-ECM-Information-32

http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?368-1227165-ECM-Information-32B

ZEDRATED
08-07-2013, 06:14 PM
That should work. Thanks.
Six shooter, what do you figure you would charge me if I brought my vehicle to you?

ZEDRATED
08-07-2013, 06:28 PM
actually how do I log in tunerpro? Isn't there an ADX file for $32? I tried to load the ADS file but tuner pro says unrecognized coding?

ZEDRATED
08-07-2013, 06:29 PM
unrecognized encoding

Six_Shooter
08-07-2013, 06:45 PM
You have to import it.

There's an option: Import ADS -> ADX

ZEDRATED
08-07-2013, 06:56 PM
Cool, now I got it lol. Thanks bro.

ZEDRATED
08-07-2013, 06:57 PM
love this forum, I am sure the wife doesn`t though hahahaha

ZEDRATED
08-07-2013, 06:58 PM
So Sixshooter, if I am not happy with the way my car runs, would you be willing to give it a go? How much do you think you would charge me to do it?

ZEDRATED
08-07-2013, 07:37 PM
I imported it but still cannot see data on the car. At one point I got it to go green at the bottom and say data logging but when I go to the dash or try to see data it all shows zero's. any idea?

Six_Shooter
08-07-2013, 09:23 PM
It should be blue when connected. Green is when you are making a log, as in recording the data to the HDD. You need a good connection first.

The '165 is well known for less than reliable connections.

ZEDRATED
08-07-2013, 09:37 PM
So what's the best thing to do, start the program with the ALDL cable all plugged in or plug it in after? I can't connect at all. I tried all ports on the computer to. Shit this is frustrating. With TTS Datamaster it used to connect right away. So much for the 20 free logs all used up lol. Any other program I can use. All I really want to see is the IAC counts.

xtreamvette69
08-07-2013, 09:50 PM
This is factory way to set and the first time I have seen anyone include a very major point to doing it this way.
".start car and set base idle in drive with park brake on"

The goal is 100 RPM under base idle setting to let as much air past throttle blades as possible and still have IAC control idle

The other issue is doing this procedure is..... must be done with engine fully warmed up, CL and I like after a drive. The way to double check and my short cut is at end of a log check IAC counts in drive under 30 for MPFI and at least some in Park/Neutral.

huh... you mean i'm doing it wrong?:sad: i do the shortcut way when engine is not close to stock though.

anyhow been working a bit on a bin for zed to try... what gear ratio are ya running Zed last question i promise, just trying to get things close as i can. will wait for answer before i continue on the bin. *whispers*(were being watched very closly gotta come up with something impressive):innocent2:
i'm sure it will in no way compare to your $500 tunes but who knows we may suprise ourselves or kill lots of birds trying :laugh:


must not be around. ok i'm a bit limited on my time so i will go ahead and just try for a middle guess...and get this finished up. cant hardly wait for you guys to analyze and pick apart my bin like the others that were posted, be a fun test :thumbsup:

xtreamvette69
08-08-2013, 01:09 AM
ok ZEDRATED here is what i hope to be a decent starter chip of course its made to use the o2 sensor obviously, so its limited in that respect, but i did shut off the o2 code on it so at least wont throw codes if you try it before you get the o2 in and working.

bin is for mass air type 7165 ecm, $6e, 350(hopefully zz4 lol), manual transmission, no vats, no egr, and is set up for your 10* initial advance(i hope), the injector flow rate is set up for your 30#injectors@ 40psi, fans set up for on at 200*(but think i read you wired fans diff so doesnt apply i guess). also no rpm limit/speed limit or fuel shutoff has been set.

in theory i think should be a pretty aggressive hi perf bin hopefully not too much for your setup.please give it a fair trial, if it has trouble starting or issues please discribe them and we will see if we can adjust something, also remember to watch the ses light to tell if you have a good burn(i find sometimes after swapping chip and hooking ecm power first turn on of the key doesnt show the lil flash so i turn off wait 30 and test )

anyhow i also see your having issues with connecting with datalogger, hope you resolve that, could be similer reason as i was having little glitches in my connection and would mess the logs so i am going to put up 2 $6e datastream adx's for use in logging this bin, both have been edited to get rid of the data glitch and helped with my connection. reason there are 2 is the glitch issue was fixed 2 diff ways, 1 may work better for you then the other. try both and see which works best for you.

ok so now the moment of truth the files for all to scrutinize....:rolleye:

xtreamvette69
08-08-2013, 01:59 AM
as for you trying to connect to your $32 try these maybe.. i dont use $32 so there not tested but should be fixed for the data glitch and may connect better if i edited them right. but i thought you said on the first page of this thread that you were already using tunerpro?

ZEDRATED
08-08-2013, 04:25 AM
Im running a 4:10 gear. I will give it a shot when I get a chance. Thanks, Appreaciate it.

ZEDRATED
08-08-2013, 04:26 AM
Thanks again bro.

ZEDRATED
08-08-2013, 04:27 AM
I was using tunerpro to look at bins and compare chips but not to datalog. I was using TTS Datamaster but they only give you 20 free trials.

EagleMark
08-08-2013, 07:24 AM
huh... you mean i'm doing it wrong?:sad: i do the shortcut way when engine is not close to stock though.

No I meant you were doing it right and added a very important part to the procedure I never see even in other sites sticky writeups!

ZEDRATED
08-08-2013, 10:01 AM
I will have the O2 wire fixed up soon. I was looking at the $6E bin file you posted up for me and just changed the Idle to 800 and disabled the EGR and Fans. My main concern is that it looks like it has a lot of spark advance, will this be ok? I also downloaded you 2 ADX $32 files and shouldn't the bottom turn green when the ALDL is plugged into the USB port or only when it hooks up to the car? Can I not hook up the ALDL connector first to the usb port and it should recognized that it is plugged in like the Burn 2 chip burner? Thanks.

EagleMark
08-08-2013, 10:07 AM
Heres how to install cable and make sure everything is working properly in TunerPRo RT:
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?1557-Cable-Installation-to-TunerPro-RT

The cable is just a pass through cable, so install is different, USB port has to be assigned a Comm port and all drivers need to be correct, not the same as burn 2 which is a device and the PC can figure it out.

Stay with same USB port on laptop. If you change USB port on PC? Well it has to re install and assign another Com port...

After cable is installed correctly, plug it into ALDL port and start TunerPro, start car and click connect. Then see what color or connection says at bottom.

Some $6E spark tables show actual spark advance and some show without the bias removed. Probably why your seeing high advance.

ZEDRATED
08-08-2013, 11:14 AM
I will try that. Thanks. I can connect and see live data without recording a datalog right?
thanks again

xtreamvette69
08-08-2013, 11:52 AM
No I meant you were doing it right and added a very important part to the procedure I never see even in other sites sticky writeups!

ahh ok, yaay me :happy:



I will try that. Thanks. I can connect and see live data without recording a datalog right?
yes



Im running a 4:10 gear. I will give it a shot when I get a chance. Thanks, Appreaciate it
should be decently close then.



I will have the O2 wire fixed up soon.
sounds like a good plan



I was looking at the $6E bin file you posted up for me and just changed the Idle to 800 and disabled the EGR and Fans.
not sure as to what all your changing in there :confused:(could you list the things your changing using the names from the file)but watch what you change as egr was already disabled and fans were changed as well(not disabled, just lowered but shouldnt matter much if not hooked up but ok), didnt figure idle was a real issue yet as you have a manual and thats pretty ez change 750 warm should have been ok for starters but ok i guess... so not sure what all you changed and keep in mind many things in a bin are related to one another(ex:trying to run engine too cool can lower temps below where some other setings referance it) its kinda like domino effect.. woulda much rather you had tried bin first before modifying it. guess easy way to put it is one change can lead to needing another as well as one change can throw off values other things are referancing.



My main concern is that it looks like it has a lot of spark advance, will this be ok? .keep in mind there are tables that adjust timing all over this bin not just the main table, you have aluminum heads which helps it better take more spark, you have high compression but the cam bleeds some away(see static vs dynamic compression) so i think you will be ok with some aggressive timing but is also why i asked to be logging and watch for pings(probably shouldnt be an issue except possibly under some load conditions)..i'm more concerned with wether or not you will get any lean pop upon tip in(acceleration)tbh.
what more to say except its all just speculation till you try it.. this is kinda a pretty complex bin, probably shoulda started with a much more basic bin i guess.



I also downloaded you 2 ADX $32 files and shouldn't the bottom turn green when the ALDL is plugged into the USB port or only when it hooks up to the car? Can I not hook up the ALDL connector first to the usb port and it should recognized that it is plugged in like the Burn 2 chip burner? Thanks..

should turn blue for connected and functioning, will turn green when your connected, functioning and recording. and it will only do these things when connected to car and key is on.. only test when just hooked to usb and not car is the interface diog test.hope that helps and n/p

EagleMark
08-08-2013, 12:02 PM
No I meant you were doing it right and added a very important part to the procedure I never see even in other sites sticky writeups!


ahh ok, yaay me :happy:I don't know why you feel gun shy? Everything you've posted is all good info! Don't hold back, we are all friendly, no flaming allowed around here. If your wrong about something... oh well, we will correct and we all learn. Heck I say wrong stuff all the time and no one is afraid to correct me and I'm glad!