Learning Curve 2.0 - ughh

[trlrider]

Evening all! Got my engines swapped out and everything seems to be working, except it is a slug. Not the power I am use to out of this engine when it was carburetor, and even weaker then the old worn out TBI that I pulled out.

This engine does have better cast iron heads (not vortec, yet), Holley Street Dominator intake, TBI adapter, and original TBI. The only oddity is Big Cap HEI with a divorced module ( module is mounted on the firewall.

Feels like a timing issue, but that should not be. Base timing is set at zero, and does not fluctuate (ESC wire disconnected) The old school in me wants to bump the timing, but I want to understand what the data is telling me first. Especially the knock counts and retard!

Knock counts are showing at 225 plus at idle, Knock retard is at 20 to 25% at idle! Why?
I do not hear any knock (per-detonation). The Knock sensor was pulled from the old engine and put in the new one in the same water jacket drain.

Data Acquisition with TunerProRT v5, I think I did it correct, but not sure. Reading the help files again, and again just to make sure.

Files attached: The one marked 1st Log was a short drive down the road and back, check engine light cam on which was a EGR Failure code (EGR is not hooked up and I have not deleted it in the tune yet)
2nd Log was a short look and see sitting in the driveway trying to figure out the knock count and knock retard at idle.
Maybe that sensor is bad, but it did not give me any grief in the old engine.

Original and Current PCM is a '8625, BLCP, $E6 mask. Nothing has been tweaked yet!

Note: The truck ran the same (weak) with a '7427, BJLH, $OD mask. For some reason that file did not save.

Thanks!

[dave w]

Gearhead-efi link for $E6 information: http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?336-16168625-PCM-Information-E6

Chip code BLCP is not listed in the above link.

It's possible a modified timing table will improve performance.

Timing tables pictures below.

dave w

Stoc Vortec L3116756

Stock TPI L9816757

Modified TBI L0516758

[trlrider]

Thanks Dave!
Studying how to do various things. And yes, that .bin does not show up anywhere.
I do have a '7427 with a BJLH (stock) .bin from a 1994 and the $OD mask.

Thinking about putting it in there and leaving it in there since the $OD mask seems more popular. < thoughts?

Will study you timing suggestions when at lunch today or when I get off work. Thank You!

[trlrider]

Also on the knock retard, I found where that the log may have been reading voltage and not actual retard. Changed that to read actual degree according to the .adx file I am using for the next time I try to log.

[dave w]

Link to a gearhead-efi thread with the 1998 Vortec timing table copy / pasted into an Excel Spreadsheet: http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?1233-1998-Vortec-Timing-Table-(Black-Box-Computer)-Open-Closed-Throttle-ONLY

Disclaimer . . . Informational use only :thumbsup:

To much timing = not a good thing

Not enough timing = not a good thing

dave w

[trlrider]

Link to a gearhead-efi thread with the 1998 Vortec timing table copy / pasted into an Excel Spreadsheet: http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?1233-1998-Vortec-Timing-Table-(Black-Box-Computer)-Open-Closed-Throttle-ONLY

Disclaimer . . . Informational use only :thumbsup:

To much timing = not a good thing

Not enough timing = not a good thing

dave w

Thanks Dave W for the bump in the correct direction.
Was studying this and working on a updated file to burn and found out my Burn2 was not working correctly.
1st would not erase the supplied chip, thus would not write the new file and confirm. Ughh!
Also noted that the two Memcals that I have for the 7427 $OD mask appear to not be reading correctly. The main spark vs. MAP vs. RPM were showing 79.8 degrees timing from 3200 rpm up, which I do not think would be correct based on downloads from this forum.
Also many scalars were maxed out on a unmolested .bin that should not have been such as EGR settings.

Have messaged Moates to see if there is a solution to my issue with the Burn2.
Meanwhile the Sub is in limbo until I can burn chips.

Thanks Dave W. for the help!

[dave w]

Possibly the Burn 2 chip addressing and buffer addressing is not correct? Example below if for the '9625 64K 27SF512 PCM.

Chip Addressing
Start Address in Hex = 000000
End Addressing in Hex = 00FFFF

Buffer Addressing
Start Address in Hex = 000000
End Addressing in Hex = 00FFFF

It's embarrassing to ask:
Is the chip correctly installed in the Burn 2.
Is the correct chip selected to read / write / erase?

dave w

[trlrider]

Possibly the Burn 2 chip addressing and buffer addressing is not correct? Example below if for the '9625 64K 27SF512 PCM.

Chip Addressing
Start Address in Hex = 000000
End Addressing in Hex = 00FFFF

Buffer Addressing
Start Address in Hex = 000000
End Addressing in Hex = 00FFFF

It's embarrassing to ask:
Is the chip correctly installed in the Burn 2.
Is the correct chip selected to read / write / erase?

dave w

Morning Dave!
The addressing is correct for the chips. Have tripled checked that as it was my first error when trying to read the memcals when If first received the Burn2

The chips are the SST 27SF512's that Moates sent me with my order. The chips are set away from the zif handle as outlined in the instructions.
Tried both chips.
When Erase is selected is shows successful really quick.
When verify chip empty it takes a few seconds then tells me the chip is not empty.

Isn't learning fun?

On another note, I may have figured out part of my problem outside of the tune. With my modified distributor, it is possible when I locked the advance I got the rotor out of phase with the stator. Will have to research that this evening.

Thanks, Louis

[trlrider]

Tech Support at Moates is 1st Class.
poked and prodded a bit with Team Viewer, changed some firmware settings and bingo. Working as advertised now.

[PlayingWithTBI]

Tech Support at Moates is 1st Class.
poked and prodded a bit with Team Viewer, changed some firmware settings and bingo. Working as advertised now.

Do you happen to remember which settings were changed?

[trlrider]

Stepped the firmware back one update to 1.00.3518.00 now!

Edit: trial and error update.
For my particular computer (Win10 64-bit HP) I found that if my port latency was set at anything other then 1, the data was getting scrambled on read and programming the chips.
This is in settings, device manager, ports, under the advanced tab.

[trlrider]

Continuing the learning and understanding.

My factory PCM (8625) has the BLCP .bin with a $E6 mask. That .bin appears to be oddity as it is not listed on this forum under that PCM
So I have been looking at a 7427 PCM that I have with the BJLH .bin and $OD mask to as a learning PCM and to possible swap into the Sub as it appears to be better liked then the 8625.

Anyway when I read the original BJLH chip, I see some oddity's compared to the same .bin file type downloaded from the forum for the 7427.

Inquiring because I don't want to make changes and burn a chip, and find out the hard way I am somehow corrupting the data in the transfer.

One for instance is the Main Spark Table vs MAP vs RPM below:
20.0 20.0 20.0 20.0 20.0 18.3 17.2 12.3 11.3 9.1 6.3 4.2 3.2 2.1 1.1 0.0 -0.7
20.0 20.0 20.0 20.0 20.0 18.3 17.2 12.3 11.3 9.1 6.3 4.2 3.2 2.1 1.1 0.0 0.0
20.0 20.0 20.0 20.0 20.0 20.0 20.0 16.2 14.1 10.2 9.1 5.3 4.2 2.1 1.1 0.0 0.0
20.0 20.0 20.0 20.0 20.0 20.0 20.0 18.3 15.1 13.0 10.2 7.0 5.3 3.2 1.1 0.0 0.0
20.0 20.0 20.0 20.0 20.0 20.0 20.0 18.3 16.2 14.1 11.3 9.1 7.0 5.3 3.2 2.1 1.1
21.1 21.1 21.1 21.1 21.1 21.1 21.1 19.0 18.3 15.1 13.0 11.3 9.1 7.0 5.3 4.2 4.2
22.1 22.1 22.1 22.1 22.1 22.1 22.1 20.0 19.0 16.2 14.1 12.3 10.2 9.1 7.0 6.3 6.3
23.2 23.2 23.2 23.2 23.2 23.2 23.2 22.1 21.1 18.3 16.2 14.1 12.3 11.3 9.1 9.1 8.1
25.3 25.3 25.3 25.3 25.3 25.3 25.3 23.2 22.1 19.0 17.2 15.1 13.0 12.3 11.3 10.2 40.4
36.9 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8
79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 40.4 36.9 79.8
79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8
79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 40.4 36.9 79.8 79.8 79.8
79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8
79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 40.4 36.9 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8
79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8
79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 40.4 36.9 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8 79.8

The same table downloaded from this site is:

20.0 20.0 20.0 20.0 20.0 18.3 17.2 12.3 11.3 9.1 6.3 4.2 3.2 2.1 1.1 0.0 -0.7
20.0 20.0 20.0 20.0 20.0 18.3 17.2 12.3 11.3 9.1 6.3 4.2 3.2 2.1 1.1 0.0 0.0
20.0 20.0 20.0 20.0 20.0 20.0 20.0 16.2 14.1 10.2 9.1 5.3 4.2 2.1 1.1 0.0 0.0
20.0 20.0 20.0 20.0 20.0 20.0 20.0 18.3 15.1 13.0 10.2 7.0 5.3 3.2 1.1 0.0 0.0
20.0 20.0 20.0 20.0 20.0 20.0 20.0 18.3 16.2 14.1 11.3 9.1 7.0 5.3 3.2 2.1 1.1
21.1 21.1 21.1 21.1 21.1 21.1 21.1 19.0 18.3 15.1 13.0 11.3 9.1 7.0 5.3 4.2 4.2
22.1 22.1 22.1 22.1 22.1 22.1 22.1 20.0 19.0 16.2 14.1 12.3 10.2 9.1 7.0 6.3 6.3
23.2 23.2 23.2 23.2 23.2 23.2 23.2 22.1 21.1 18.3 16.2 14.1 12.3 11.3 9.1 9.1 8.1
25.3 25.3 25.3 25.3 25.3 25.3 25.3 23.2 22.1 19.0 17.2 15.1 13.0 12.3 11.3 10.2 9.1
26.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 24.3 23.2 22.1 18.3 17.2 16.2 14.1 13.0 12.3 11.3
27.1 27.1 27.1 27.1 27.1 27.1 27.1 26.0 24.3 22.1 20.0 18.3 17.2 15.1 14.1 13.0 12.3
30.2 30.2 30.2 30.2 30.2 30.2 30.2 30.2 25.3 23.2 21.1 20.0 19.0 17.2 17.2 16.2 15.1
30.2 30.2 30.2 30.2 30.2 30.2 30.2 30.2 26.0 24.3 22.1 21.1 20.0 18.3 18.3 18.3 17.2
30.2 30.2 30.2 30.2 30.2 30.2 30.2 30.2 26.0 24.3 22.1 21.1 20.0 18.3 17.2 16.2 15.1
30.2 30.2 30.2 30.2 30.2 30.2 30.2 30.2 26.0 24.3 23.2 22.1 21.1 19.0 18.3 17.2 16.2
30.2 30.2 30.2 30.2 30.2 30.2 30.2 30.2 26.0 24.3 23.2 22.1 21.1 19.0 18.3 17.2 16.2
30.2 30.2 30.2 30.2 30.2 30.2 30.2 30.2 26.0 24.3 23.2 22.1 21.1 19.0 18.3 17.2 16.2

Starting at 3200 RPM with the table from my junkyard pcm, what is with all the 79.8?
I have the same experience reading a BDJY memcal, both are $OD mask.
Both with the same $OD .xdf and .adf files from the forum!

Is the file being corrupted on the read, or is that common on a factory file from a stock vehicle?
Trying to learn what is going on.
FYI - this occurred before and after the Moates technician worked on my Burn2 firmware.

Thanks in advance!

[dave w]

The 4L60E is either definition file $E6 or $OD. The 4L80E is either definition file $31 or $OE.

Looking at a .bin file with the INCORRECT definition file (.xdf) is the most likely explanation why the spark values starting at 3200 RPM's are all 79.8 degrees.

Disasters can happen at the speed of a mouse click!:yikes:

dave w

[trlrider]

The 4L60E is either definition file $E6 or $OD. The 4L80E is either definition file $31 or $OE.

Looking at a .bin file with the INCORRECT definition file (.xdf) is the most likely explanation why the spark values starting at 3200 RPM's are all 79.8 degrees.

Disasters can happen at the speed of a mouse click!:yikes:

dave w

BJLH and BDJY should both be $OD according to the '7427 page. That is the .xdf I am using.
The latest one posted by oneprojecttoomany here:
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/attachment.php?attachmentid=3947&d=1361028399

Both sets above read with the same .xdf.
Have gotten the same with the $OD .xdf from the tunerpro pages.

Will try opening it with a different..xdf at lunch. Maybe my memcals are marked incorrectly. But two from different salvage yards?

That is what I have not figured out. Still poking but was hoping someone has had this before and could point me in the correct direction.

Thanks

[dave w]

It appears my copy of BDJY is $E6, see attached.

BDJY has been superseded to BLCP, with a release date of 04/26/94

dave w

[trlrider]

It appears my copy of BDJY is $E6, see attached.

BDJY has been superseded to BLCP, with a release date of 04/26/94

dave w

Okay, good! Thanks for the slap upside the head. Now I am somewhat back on track.
Somewhere I crossed the BDJY to a OD mask in my files. Deleted that and save yours.
Will re-read mine tonight and see what happens. It is in a '7427, to if it was superceeded by the BLCP, which is the original file in my '1993 K1500 in a '8625, then at some point the PCM was replaced and upgraded. It does show a different tag then my other salvage yard units.
So back to the thousand dollar question!

Isn't learning fun?

Thanks DaveW again.

[trlrider]

BDJY has been superseded to BLCP, with a release date of 04/26/94

dave w

DaveW, or anyone,
So what is the preferred PCM, the '7427 with the $E6 or $OD mask?
, or the '8625 which appears newer?
Or is there not enough difference between them to be concerned about for a basic reliable unit, with a possibility of add-ons later such as cam and Vortec heads.
Right now just learning to make the truck reliable and have a learning platform.

Thanks,

Louis

[trlrider]

So update on this journey!

- after much searching, tinkering, agonizing and soul searching I found the following.
- the big cap HEI that was modified to work with the PCM was out of phase (retarded) approximately 10 to 12 degree's. Thus it was firing to early for full spark. This could possibly explain the knock retard both the stock .bin and the modified .bin was experiencing.

- so, this past weekend I pulled the modified distributor, rebuilt the original small cap HEI and dropped it in. Mounted the coil to the firewall, with extra grounding to both the head and the frame.

- with the stock .bin it would still spit and sputter but minimal knock retard.
- the .bin file with the vortec timing table, a little better but still spitting an sputtering.
- found a timing table post on one of the Camaro forums (will post the source when I remember where it was) for a Iron Head LT1. Hmm, my cam and heads are very close to identical to the old LT1's! Created a modified .bin with that timing table and burned a chip.
- and, we have a drive-able truck again.
- so far with 5 short mild trips on it and nothing adverse is showing up, except the BLM's are in the 112 - 116 range at steady mph's in various increments.

At least I can drive it now to start working on fine tuning to this heavy vehicle.

Learned:
-how to find the correct .xdf and .adx files for my .bins
-to keep notes and backup files of what works, and send what doesn't work to the trash.
-that my understanding of setting up distributors for computer control still lacks. Although I still want a big cap HEI. But the current setup will work.
-that no matter how prepared I though I was for this swap, I was severely lacking.

But first and foremost of importance: There are some really great and very experienced folks on this forum always willing to nudge you in the correct direction, if you just ask the correct questions!

Thanks to all those that have helped this far.

Louis

[dave w]

The 1985 - 1991 TPI Corvette used the Large Cap HEI's from the factory. Likely a factory EFI Large Cap HEI will be correctly phased.

Often, adjusting the injector so some of the BLM's are Rich and some of the BLM's are lean is a good plan before adjusting the VE tables.

dave w

[trlrider]

The 1985 - 1991 TPI Corvette used the Large Cap HEI's from the factory. Likely a factory EFI Large Cap HEI will be correctly phased.

Often, adjusting the injector so some of the BLM's are Rich and some of the BLM's are lean is a good plan before adjusting the VE tables.

dave w

Afternoon Dave W!
I don't believe the late '80's TPI Corvettes/Camaro Large Cap HEI's had centrifugal advance. There were locked at the factory. That is where my problem started is when I did the lock. Apperently when I pulled the weights and locked the centrifugal advance I went to far and misaligned the rotor with the stator.
We were supposed to have a couple of those Corvette/Camaro HEI's here at the shop, but I be dipped if we can find them.

Anyway, went back and made the small cap work and found a place for the coil which did not have a home on the aftermarket intake with the fuel lines and new throttle bracket in the way. All is good there now.
If I do find a Corvette HEI I may put it in when I do the head swap this fall.

Thanks!

[dave w]

The Corvette distributor is an option. The Corvette distributor uses screws to hold down the distributor cap, not fairly priced. Many of the early 80's SBC's were equipped with an "Electronic" carburetor combined with a "without" vacuum advance distributors having the common spring loaded "J" hook to hold down the distributor cap. Most of the early 80's distributors "without" vacuum advance have the same 7 pin ignition module used in the TPI Corvette distributor.

dave w

[brian617]

You can find the mask ID in $OE, $OD, $E6 and (cant remember the other one) in the .Bin regardless of the XDF.