'95 S10 '7727 conversion, need guidance.

[yelruhde]

I'm a newb at programming, but have 95 S10, 4.3 tbi, with the 16183748 VCM-x.

Largely due to some mods, I've been trying to run it with the 7727, autoprom and tunerpro. I tried wiring the 7727 in and could not get the thing to even fire, I thought it was a VATS issue, but can't get a datastream out of the thing to verify. If anyone has the time to help with software/different wiring schemes, jumpers, whatever. I can try it out and troubleshoot on the weekends, it is my daily driver.

[Six_Shooter]

Not getting data through the ALDL is usually indicative of either a corrupt or missing bin/EPROM. This is especially true if a quickly flashing CEL accompanies the lack of data connection.

In a conversion, the cause could be many things. Wrong pin connected to the ALDL line, mispin somewhere in the conversion, etc.

What is the CEL doing when you turn the key on?

Did you upload the bin to the emulator?

Have you tried using a stock MEMCAL from a similar application to verify hardware?

What code are you using?

[yelruhde]

I used the 7727 files from diy-ecm. 8D, AUJP and the 1227730 datastream file. I tried setting the cylinder select to 192 for v6, not to 18 for tbi as shown in the other thread. The combination may be wrong, but you guys seem to be able to mix and match them pretty easily.

The check engine light was on and steady.

The bin was on the emulator, it gave the confirmation beep. Also, the fuel pump and iac would fire when the ignition lead was put to 12 v. The ecm is an ebay special and may not be any good. The prom i have is a v6 mpfi.

Is there a matched set of files to try? The vcm has a knock sensor/memcal board which i can also try.

I apologize if my first post hijacked the other thread. I'm willing to try any suggesstions and post the results if it will help.

[PJG1173]

any reason you didn't go with the 7427? I have also found just because you get a confirmation beep dosen't mean it took. I always upload the bin to the emulator then verify. sometimes it will say sucessful when I upload but fail on the verify, so I have to upload again.

[EagleMark]

any reason you didn't go with the 7427? I have also found just because you get a confirmation beep dosen't mean it took. I always upload the bin to the emulator then verify. sometimes it will say sucessful when I upload but fail on the verify, so I have to upload again.Yup x2...

[yelruhde]

Motive and opportunity.

I have the 7727 w/wiring and my truck has a weatherpack, underhood vcm. It would be nice to combine what is already in the garage into something useful. The ideal situation would be to reflash the vcm to get the truck running properly, but there is no information on these. It appears a Moates G4 adapter will plug into it, but noone has a definition file or a "how to" on pulling the files out without erasing or destroying it in the process. And I'm a newb at this.

I was searching for information on how to pull and reflash when a thread popped up about running 2 barrel tbi with the 7727 and appeared to have a fair amount of interest.

I have the ecm and a similar application. If there is interest on this topic I can run some trial and error, while solving some driveability problems for myself in the process.

On paper it seems like an easy swap. TPI ran two banks, TBI ran two injectors. The 7727 ran both style systems, only a single barrel TBI. From some research the tbi injector was driven out of the same pin as one of the tpi banks. Hooking another injector to the free tpi injector bank pin and doing some lying to the ecm seems like it would get the job done. Is this an over simplification?

[PJG1173]

On paper it seems like an easy swap. TPI ran two banks, TBI ran two injectors. The 7727 ran both style systems, only a single barrel TBI. From some research the tbi injector was driven out of the same pin as one of the tpi banks. Hooking another injector to the free tpi injector bank pin and doing some lying to the ecm seems like it would get the job done. Is this an over simplification?

the question is do you have to modify the injector driver for the different impedance injectors. one of the people on here with the 50lb brains can weigh in on this. from the research I have done helping someone on another forum the ODB1.5 is not tunable and everyone I found went to the 7427 to be able to tune their rigs. Not saying what you are trying to do is impossible just above my skill level.

[EagleMark]

That's what that entire other thread was about was using the 7727 for 2 barrel TBI. I think Dave W had it worked out. 7727 came in a car with one barrel TBI. I was very busy at the time and did not get in on that one. Maybe post there to see what Dave ended up with?

[Six_Shooter]

I only split this post from the other thread because I thought this deserved it's own thread.

I can understand wanting to use the weather resistant ECM for this application.

The injector firing needs to be addressed first and foremost.

You will need to set the cyl select to TBI, and I'm pretty sure there is a MEMCAL modification needed as well.

There will likely be an injector driver modification needed as well. TBI uses "Peak and Hold" scheme, where as the MPFI uses Saturated. Peak and Hold, will open the injectors with a high current, then drop off after a few milliseconds to a lower current to hold in the injector(s) open. Saturated, just uses a single current setting to open and hold the injector(s) open.

I can tell you how to modify the wiring on a '7749 to do this, which may apply to the '7730, but I don't know how to do this on a '7727, due to the different connector type. Keep in mind that the '7749 has two injector drivers, one for each bank, or pair of injectors as they were originally used in 4 cylinder applications, 6 cyl apps used saturated with the '7749. The '7730 and '7727 both have a single injector driver, the separate injector outputs are bridged internally in the ECM, this may or may not cause an issue when trying to drive 2 TBI injectors. Mathematically, the injectors drivers should be able to run the two TBI injectors.

I would compare the schematics between the '7727 single TBI application, the Turbo Sunbird ('7749), and even compare ECM schematics (internally) between the '7730/'7749 and the '7727, to see if there is a need and how to change the injector driver wiring.

[yelruhde]

Continuing the work Dave W had started was the intent of my orignal post. It seemed like he was about 80% of the way there, then had to stop.

Correct this if it is wrong, old tpi used 8 ohm injectors and tbi uses 2 ohm injectors. Four 8 ohm resistors wired in parallel makes the resistance across the system 2 ohms using 1/r for parallel circuits. So the driver would see the same thing regardless of which system it was driving. If the problem is just a lack of current, then an inline amp could solve it.

I'll google the board schematics tonight.

Maybe the thing to do is set it back up this weekend with a light to see if the injector driver is doing anything. The paper stuffed under them last time stayed dry. If the peak current wasn't enough to activate the solenoid, then it would answer a few questions. It would run with gas dumped down its throat, so i did something rigght.

It looks like the 3800 guys have hacked their obd 1.5's. I haven't seen anything saying how though.

[PJG1173]

Continuing the work Dave W had started was the intent of my orignal post. It seemed like he was about 80% of the way there, then had to stop.

Correct this if it is wrong, old tpi used 8 ohm injectors and tbi uses 2 ohm injectors. Four 8 ohm resistors wired in parallel makes the resistance across the system 2 ohms using 1/r for parallel circuits. So the driver would see the same thing regardless of which system it was driving. If the problem is just a lack of current, then an inline amp could solve it.



your math is correct all things being the same it would work. from six_shooter's post it appears all things are not the same.

"There will likely be an injector driver modification needed as well. TBI uses "Peak and Hold" scheme, where as the MPFI uses Saturated. Peak and Hold, will open the injectors with a high current, then drop off after a few milliseconds to a lower current to hold in the injector(s) open. Saturated, just uses a single current setting to open and hold the injector(s) open."

[yelruhde]

your math is correct all things being the same it would work. from six_shooter's post it appears all things are not the same.

"There will likely be an injector driver modification needed as well. TBI uses "Peak and Hold" scheme, where as the MPFI uses Saturated. Peak and Hold, will open the injectors with a high current, then drop off after a few milliseconds to a lower current to hold in the injector(s) open. Saturated, just uses a single current setting to open and hold the injector(s) open."

That is the part I am trying to understand. Given a 2 ohm resistance and a 14.5 volt supply, from the alternator when running, the injector driver needs to be capable of a little more then 7 amps to work. Which is fine. I just wired a 2 amp light to the battery and fired the injector without blowing it up. This changes the circuit so, I need to get some spare fuses to see what the power requirement really is to drive the injectors.

[Six_Shooter]

It's not so much what the driver needs to see or do, but what the injectors want to be driven with.

Also, high Z injectors are 12 ohms average, but you need to devide by 8, since the '7730 and '7727 both use a single injector driver.

Couple all of this with the fact that TBI needs to fire twice as often as MPFI, and you will be driving the injector driver pretty hard, trying to drive a TBI system.

[RobertISaar]

post the 7730/7749 low-z procedure and i'll make it 7727 friendly. :D if i had to guess, i could look at the TBI application that was run on the 7727 and make sense of it from that or use it to double check the pin interchange.

the hardest driving saturated setup on the 7727 was as noted the 8 cylinder TPI stuff. 8 parallel 12 ohm loads will appear to the driver as a single 1.5 ohm load. at 14.4 volts, that's 9.6 amps.

IIRC, when in peak/hold mode, the driver switches over to hold mode once the load passes 4 amps? and when in hold, roughly 1 amp is fed to the injector? i'm not 100% on those though, it's been a while since i've looked into driving low-z injectors.

[yelruhde]

It's not so much what the driver needs to see or do, but what the injectors want to be driven with.

Also, high Z injectors are 12 ohms average, but you need to devide by 8, since the '7730 and '7727 both use a single injector driver.

Couple all of this with the fact that TBI needs to fire twice as often as MPFI, and you will be driving the injector driver pretty hard, trying to drive a TBI system.

Is the firing scheme the same for v6 mpfi and v8 tpi? The reason for the question is with a v8 the firing scheme is even. Each bank sees two squirts per cam revolution. But for a v6 it would alternate, 1, 2, 1, 2 and so on. GM has a long standing history of only doing what is cheap and easy unless Uncle Sam twists their arm, but, this sounds like a driveability nightmare.

Another question, do these bins have the ability to alter the injection timing. Not the pwm, but when the fuel is released relative to crank position? Although it seems redudant with batch fire, I worked with a Motec system with this feature and it would impact the engine's response.

I'm asking a lot of questions, but there is an EE at my work who is willing to help me modify the system. I need to learn more about it and get a datastream out of tunerpro for it to happen.

[Six_Shooter]

In anything but Async fuel, the injections pulses are even, regardless of engine cyl count in MPFI applications. It is linked to DRP.

Async fuel fires the injectors every 12 ms IIRC regardless of DRP.

In most if not all stock bins it seems that Async is disabled anyway. I have tried to use it on a couple engines and have always turned it back off rather soon after, just because the engine didn't seem to want to run stable in that mode.

[RobertISaar]

yes, Async is a 12.5mSec loop.

<-- also not a fan of async.

[yelruhde]

So far this weekend I managed to swap the fuel pump for a tpi unit to go with an 18 psi spring, huge driveability improvement. Then install AC, the truck was originally built without it. The AC conversion required some junkyard diving for pig tails and the lower hard line. A 93 350 tbi suburban with a 16168625 lost its computer and pigtail in the process.

Its not a weather pack ecm, but I need to learn how to use the autoprom in a closer to stock application. The good news is that it works with the stock bin and runs with the autoprom. So I'm feeling better. It idled uncontrollably at 2,000 rpm after a couple of changes and had a massive disagreement with the truck's electronics when the stock bin was reloaded for a fresh start. So that is pulled apart and will get more testing sometime this week. It crapped out before the ALDL was plugged in.

For the 7727 part, the injectors will fire consistently with a 5 amp fuse and 14v. So I've ordered a pair of ssr's from Newark. thy are 5 amp continuous and 60 amp surge with a max 500 hz PWM. A v8 at 6,000 rpm will need 200 hz, so they should be more then capable. Has anyone attempted to wire in a ssr in place of the injector driver? The system is purely on/off, so there should be no reason it will not work. Assuming the response time is adequate.

Thoughts?

[yelruhde]

Relays came in today. I wired one in to fire one side of the throttle body. It is working without a problem so far. If it makes it through tomorrow I'll wire the second one in. If I can get through next week with out a problem the 7727 will go in. So far everything is connectorized, protected by a 5 amp fuse and running on the stock vcm. If there is a failure, the stock tbi connector can go back on no foul, just back to the drawing board.

If there is still interest in this, then I'll post part numbers and the wiring scheme. I've got about $60 in the relays and connectors including shipping.

[Six_Shooter]

What are you doing with this relay?

[yelruhde]

What are you doing with this relay?

It is acting as one of the injector drivers. It seems to work ok.

Unfortunately the 5 amp fuse didn't survive my 4 mile drive to work. May try the next size up and see if the relay survives

[yelruhde]

I have it in and running. I still can not get a datastream in tunerpro, so I have no idea what is happening in the ecm.

The biggest problem is the engine bogs, then pops through the intake under a heavy throttle from low rpms, below 1,500 or so. It doesn't happen when the throttle is increased gradually. This has been a problem for a while. The truck did this before I swapped the heads, intake and cam. It does it worse now. It seemed like a lean mixture problem at first. When I bumped the fuel pressure to 18 psi there was a huge improvement, then swapping the injectors to 305 injectors helped again. Now I'd like to tune the problem out, but don't know where to start. Any changes seem to make it idle faster, not help. Increasing the AE and PE tables produced a bigger flame. Cap, rotor, wires and plugs are new today. The timing is set at 0.

Any suggestions?

[Six_Shooter]

Usually a pop through the intake when throttle is increased radily, is known as a "lean pop." More AE, usually TPS based is needed. Sometimes a combination of TPS and MAP AE works best though.

First get the datalogging connecting to Tuner Pro, then make changes, otherwise you could be shooting in the dark, and actually adjusting the wrong thing or going the wrong way.

How are the serial and data outputs from the ECM connected and what have you tried to get Tuner Pro connected to the ECM?

[yelruhde]

Usually a pop through the intake when throttle is increased radily, is known as a "lean pop." More AE, usually TPS based is needed. Sometimes a combination of TPS and MAP AE works best though.

First get the datalogging connecting to Tuner Pro, then make changes, otherwise you could be shooting in the dark, and actually adjusting the wrong thing or going the wrong way.

How are the serial and data outputs from the ECM connected and what have you tried to get Tuner Pro connected to the ECM?

The ecm is now wired in. I took a ALDL connector of a car in the boneyard and have been connecting the OBD1 Moates cable through it. The truck has the OBD2 style plug, so I adapted an OBD1 plug in place. White/Black and Black/White are plugged into the corresponding terminals of the same color, the orange OBD1 Serial Data line is plugged to the Tan OBD2 clone serial data line. Only those 3 wires corresponded between my truck and the donor car. So nothing else is connected.

One thing that is off, might just be a part of the emulation, but jumping the terminals does not flash the ECM light. It stays on steadily, no matter what.

The relays are not needed. The reason the injectors would not fire in the earlier attempt was operator error. I did not connect the dist ref wire. :mad1:

[dave w]

That's what that entire other thread was about was using the 7727 for 2 barrel TBI. I think Dave W had it worked out. 7727 came in a car with one barrel TBI. I was very busy at the time and did not get in on that one. Maybe post there to see what Dave ended up with?

Here is the link to the tread I started: http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?454-What-If-8D-%281227727-ECM%29-for-TBI

I was not able to complete bench testing of the '7727. I also had a Cylinder Select Error.

Early on, I looked into the Quad 4 underhood ECM. "I've also researched wiring schematics for the Quad 4 using ECM 1228708 which uses 4 port PnH mode injectors. I suppose the 1228708 would be an optional ECM to use for under hood V8 TBI? My thinking now, is to try the Quad 4 ECM for TBI.

dave w

[Six_Shooter]

The ecm is now wired in. I took a ALDL connector of a car in the boneyard and have been connecting the OBD1 Moates cable through it. The truck has the OBD2 style plug, so I adapted an OBD1 plug in place. White/Black and Black/White are plugged into the corresponding terminals of the same color, the orange OBD1 Serial Data line is plugged to the Tan OBD2 clone serial data line. Only those 3 wires corresponded between my truck and the donor car. So nothing else is connected.

One thing that is off, might just be a part of the emulation, but jumping the terminals does not flash the ECM light. It stays on steadily, no matter what.

The relays are not needed. The reason the injectors would not fire in the earlier attempt was operator error. I did not connect the dist ref wire. :mad1:

If you don't get a response when jumping the A & B pins, something isn't right. Make sure the ground to the ALDL connector is present, it not only effects code retrieval, but datalogging as well, giving a common voltage refernce between the ECMand the laptop.

[RobertISaar]

good luck finding a 1227808.... only application was quad4 W-bodies, and those were only offered in 90 and 91.... and were incredibly rare when new, let alone now.

[yelruhde]

Here is the link to the tread I started: http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?454-What-If-8D-(1227727-ECM)-for-TBI (http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?454-What-If-8D-%281227727-ECM%29-for-TBI)

I was not able to complete bench testing of the '7727. I also had a Cylinder Select Error.

Early on, I looked into the Quad 4 underhood ECM. "I've also researched wiring schematics for the Quad 4 using ECM 1228708 which uses 4 port PnH mode injectors. I suppose the 1228708 would be an optional ECM to use for under hood V8 TBI? My thinking now, is to try the Quad 4 ECM for TBI.

dave w

Your thread got me going on this again. I tried, but could not get it to run. And was thinking about trying to hack the stock underhood vcm. Moates support replied and said they do not offer anything to work with it though.

[yelruhde]

If you don't get a response when jumping the A & B pins, something isn't right. Make sure the ground to the ALDL connector is present, it not only effects code retrieval, but datalogging as well, giving a common voltage refernce between the ECMand the laptop.

The ground is OK. Is there a way to tell if the circuit in the ecm is faulty? I need a good excuse to buy a scanner.

Also, the 1227727 wiring shows the serial data coming from 2 ports. B5 and B11. I tried both, separately and together. No change. Could there be 2 aldl ports? I haven't seen indicating there is, but you never know.

[RobertISaar]

B5 and B11 (assuming those are the correct pins for the ALDL circuit) are bridged internally in the ECM. doesn't matter which one you're connected to, either should work.

[yelruhde]

What does it mean if neither one does?

Tunerpro says it is working at 11 to 13 Hz, but the numbers are garbage and never change.

This is my first project with the Autoprom. I don't have anyway of knowing if the problem is with the unit, wiring or ecm. How can I troubleshoot this?

[RobertISaar]

..... it almost sounds like the ADX definition is the problem?

i mean, you seem to be able to send proper commands to it, and it sends information back.... just not the expected information.

[yelruhde]

..... it almost sounds like the ADX definition is the problem?

i mean, you seem to be able to send proper commands to it, and it sends information back.... just not the expected information.

I thought that was the problem last time this happened, so I pulled the 1227727_8d adx, 8D xdf and a manual tranny bin off of the this site. They should be well proven and work together. Is there a better one to try?

[RobertISaar]

in the 8D datastream, there are two RPM variables that are transmitted... one that is 8 bit and displays RPM 0-6400 in 25RPM increments, the other is a 16 bit reference period and will display from 20-1.1 million RPM, IIRC.

now, if the cylinder count in the BIN is changed correctly to reflect 6 cylinders instead of 8, then the 0-6400 RPM value will be correct, but the reference period based RPM will need it's conversion changed.

[EagleMark]

You've got so much going on? Whatever bin file you started with should be the ADX to use. Don't be afraid to disconnect and reconnect, restart your TunerPro, reload the ADX and reconnect.
That is strange to have 2 serial data lines coming from ECM? The wiring diagrams here are from Y body (Corvette) Just looked and it does have 2 wires but they all tie together and also go to CMM and HVAC and ETC... the one you want is B5 to Pin M of ALDL port. Unless you have a Vette disconnect the other, then connect.

[dave w]

good luck finding a 1227808.... only application was quad4 W-bodies, and those were only offered in 90 and 91.... and were incredibly rare when new, let alone now.

I just did a search on ebay ( http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_sacat=0&_nkw=1228708&_sop=15 ) for the 1227808 ECM, found 8 listings (reman A1 Cardone) with prices from $90 ~ $155. Several months ago I looked for new Quad 4 Memcals and they were also available ( http://www.ebay.com/itm/ACDELCO-OE-SERVICE-16164654-Engine-Computer-Prom-Power-Chip-/160732001805?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Year%3A1991|Make%3AOldsmobile|Model%3ACutlass +Calais&hash=item256c5fb60d&vxp=mtr )

dave w

[yelruhde]

The rpm reading isn't consistently off by a constant value. It is always 100rpm. The tps is always 1.53%. Everything out of the datastream is an obnoxiously wrong number which does not change. I have tried both pins, the result is the same. None of the values change. I will try to post a screen shot of it tomorrow.

[RobertISaar]

the one you want is B5 to Pin M of ALDL port. Unless you have a Vette disconnect the other, then connect.

it won't matter which is used.... they're both the same circuit. i imagine GM did it this way for redundancy in case one wire gets dropped, then it will still be 100% functional.


I just did a search on ebay ( http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_sacat=0&_nkw=1228708&_sop=15 ) for the 1227808 ECM, found 8 listings (reman A1 Cardone) with prices from $90 ~ $155. Several months ago I looked for new Quad 4 Memcals and they were also available ( http://www.ebay.com/itm/ACDELCO-OE-SERVICE-16164654-Engine-Computer-Prom-Power-Chip-/160732001805?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Year%3A1991|Make%3AOldsmobile|Model%3ACutlass +Calais&hash=item256c5fb60d&vxp=mtr )

dave w

interesting. considering Q4 W-bodies may have had even lower production numbers than the C4 ZR1(i don't have the production numbers handy), i'm kind of amazed anything specific to them is still available.

[EagleMark]

The rpm reading isn't consistently off by a constant value. It is always 100rpm. The tps is always 1.53%. Everything out of the datastream is an obnoxiously wrong number which does not change. I have tried both pins, the result is the same. None of the values change. I will try to post a screen shot of it tomorrow.Why don't you post the datalog and we could see if anything is there at other address's? Is any data correct? Ever?

Robert. what is the ALDL.ds for this? I wonder if he has an ECM that needs a connection command? Did you ever get an $8D to work in Corvette with all those other wires tied to differant modules? When I looked at the wiring diagram here in 1227727 it looked more like an LT1 nightmare... but if he doesn't have the other modules they would not need silenced, so did $8D ever need a connection command?

yelrude, you could try giving it a 10K resister to start data flowing. Post up the ADX you are using. Also what exactly is the ECM and bin your are using?

[RobertISaar]

if running a F-body 8D BIN.... then i don't think there would be any comm issues, since the only module those had connected to the M pin was the ECM. i don't think they had ABS or anything else like that yet.

the proper .ds file should be A100.

i've temporarily ran a F-body based 8D in the wife's grand prix (3.1) for a quick test, i didn't have any issues then.

[yelruhde]

Screenshot and files attached. It runs well enough to go around the block and probably to work and back. Getting the data out of it would really help.

[dave w]

When I was experimenting with the '7727 for TBI, I found wiring diagram (1990 Lumina) showing pin D4 / D8 shorted for the Peak-N-Hold '7727 TBI injector. It's my understanding that the '7727 has only one Peak-N-Hold injector driver. Interesting info on the '7727 http://www.exatorq.com/ludis_obd1/quadplugecm.html

The '7808 wiring diagram (1990 Cutlass Supreme Quad 4) shows pins D4 / D8 shorted together for Peak-N-Hold injectors 1 & 4 and pins D1 / D5 shorted together for Peak-N-Hold Injectors 2 & 3. The '7808 uses pin D9 (injector driver) for injectors #1 & #4. The '7808 uses pin D14 (injector driver) for injectors #2 & #3.

dave w

[EagleMark]

if running a F-body 8D BIN.... then i don't think there would be any comm issues, since the only module those had connected to the M pin was the ECM. i don't think they had ABS or anything else like that yet.

the proper .ds file should be A100.

i've temporarily ran a F-body based 8D in the wife's grand prix (3.1) for a quick test, i didn't have any issues then.But he's running a Corvette bin? Also tied into a 1995 S10 so may be other module on line? Also Corvette is A115 which looks identical to A100 but both say a Mode 0 is needed?

So when AutoProm is emulating and you turn key on make sure CEL comes on blinks once and stays on till engine running then goes off. Then connect with this ADX and see what happenes?

[RobertISaar]

then i would recommend taking a look at the other modules. i forgot just how integrated the S10 stuff was right before OBD2. i DOUBT mode 0 is necessary... since mode 0 will force the module back into normal mode (normal message requests/responses).

and probably taking a look at the ALDL scheduler table to make sure that no other messages are getting transmitted regardless of the modules being there.

[yelruhde]

Ok...stupid newwbie question. Where do i load a .ds file in tunerpro? I haven't noticed the light doing anything. Even with the aldl grounded. I'll try the file..at a park doing father's day stuff with my daughter, probably for the rest of the day.

I grabbed a 350 manual tranny bin. Seemed like a good starting point.

[RobertISaar]

.ds files are GM documentation files.... they aren't directly usable in tunerpro, you need to create ADS and ADX files out of them.

[Six_Shooter]

You don't load a .ds file to Tuner Pro.

You use a .ds file to create an ADS or ADX (depending on the version of Tuner Pro). A .ds is to an ADS/ADX as a "hack" is to a BIN. It's a definition to be able to create other files.

[EagleMark]

You don't need to load the ALDL.ds file, it's just a text document with info on how to build the ADX file. Try the ADX above, it had the Mode 0 Command built in and I used it in connection command and Mode 1 for ALDL data. This is the way the ALDL file says it's needed but sometimes it is not.

An F body (Camaro, Firebird) bin may be better starting point.

Don't try and connect till engine is running. Don't be afraid to disconnect and reconnect.


DATA STREAM A100 SPECIFICATION

ENGINE USAGE:
5.0 PFI (LB9) (VIN=F) 90, 91
5.7 PFI (L98) (VIN=8) 90, 91
DATA PIN : READ DATA ON PIN "M" OF ALDL CONNECTOR
BAUD RATE : 8192 BAUD - BI-DIRECTIONAL
..PAGE
MODE 0 (INPUT MESSAGE)
ALDL REQUEST: THE ALCL TESTER MUST TRANSMET THE FOLLOWING
MESSAGE TO THE ECM, AFTER AN IDLE LINE IS
DETECTED.
- MESSAGE ID = $F4
- MESSAGE LENGTH = $56
- MODE = $00
- SUM CHECK
ECM RESPONSE: THE ECM WILL TRANSMIT THE FOLLOWING MESSAGE.
- MESSAGE ID = $F4
- MESSAGE LENGTH = $56
- MODE = $00
- SUM CHECK
MODE 1 (ALCL MODE)
THE UART ALDL MODE - MODE 1 WILL ONLY BE ACTIVE IF REQUESTED
BY THE ALCL TESTER.
ALDL REQUEST:
- MESSAGE ID = $F4
- MESSAGE LENGTH = $56
- MODE = $01
- MESSAGE NUMBER = $00
- SUM CHECK
THE ECM WILL RESPOND WITH THE FOLLOWING MESSAGE:
- MESSAGE ID = $F4
- MESSAGE LENGTH = $95
- MODE = $01
- DATA BYTE 1
.
.
- DATA BYTE 63
- SUM CHECK

MODE 10 (CLEAR MALFUNCTION CODES)
ALDL REQUEST:
- MESSAGE ID = $F4
- MESSAGE LENGTH = $56
- MODE = $0A
- CHECKSUM

THE ECM BROADCASTS NO NORMAL MODE MESSAGES, NOR DOES IT ISSUE AN $F0 POLL.

[Six_Shooter]

I just wanted to mention that likely your bin file is corrupt.

I'm dealing with a similar issue in another conversion currently.

It's a 1986 Turbo Regal, original ECM is a 1227148.

I have made an adapter harness to install a 1227749.

Using an AutoProm, in APU mode and open mode.

If I upload any $58 bin, which is what I want to use, it is corrupt and will not connect properly.

If I upload any $8F bin, it is also corrupt.

If I upload any $59 or $8D bin, the ECM reads the bin fine and datalogging connection is not an issue.

I may break down and buy a 3 BAR MAP sensor to get this to work.

The strange thing is I DID have correct datalogging and the car running on $58 for about 10 minutes or so this morning.

I started getting some strange warning messages from Tuner Pro, about "save changes to bin" when I changed NOTHING in the bins, just simply loaded to Tuner Pro and uploaded them to the Auto Prom.

You need to get your CEL working though, that is the place to start to get some diagnostics going, and check for ECM functionality. When you turn the key on, you should get a CEL flash, then on solid. If you get just a solid CEL or a quickly flickering CEL, then the bin is corrupt or not reading properly.

Something else to check is proper orientation of the EPROM or emulation cable. If that is backwards, that can cause some similar issues.

[yelruhde]

Would it run with a corrupt bin? I burned a chip for it and went around the block.

I just ran out to the garage and tried the adx, about 50% success, It is throwing a MAP high, TPS high and rich O2 sensor code. None of the sensors are reading. They are all static at random numbers.

Its encouraging that there isn't a cyl select code, but I don't trust any of it until the sensors start reading.

[Six_Shooter]

It could run on LHM, if the values were close enough in the NETRES and RDF chips.

[yelruhde]

It could run on LHM, if the values were close enough in the NETRES and RDF chips.

The chip is for a v6 mpfi engine and it will barely idle with that chip directly plugged in the computer, also it responds to the changes I make. The problem seems like something else.

The VCM controlled the ABS, so there is not another controller on the line. Before repinning the harness to use the 7727 I tried wiring the pinout directly to the cable 1 pin, It didn't help.

[Six_Shooter]

You need both the serial data and a ground to the ALDL logging cable, like I said before, there needs to be the ground reference between the ECM and the PC/laptop. Without that ground reference, the data will be garbled, at best.

You could test as I do, by using other code that will run in the ECM, with the engine off, upload the different code, open the matching ADX, and see if the data is good, or still garbage. I usually look at the TPS data, and run the pedal through a full stroke or two, to verify proper data.

FWIW, sometimes when the cals are off enough, the LHM actually works better, due to the safe rich programming of the LHM hardware. If it's responding to changes through emulation, then it could be reading some of it.

BTW, have you disabled checksum? If not that can cause some big issues as well.

[yelruhde]

How does the checksum get disabled? It wasn't disabled intentionally if it has been.

[Six_Shooter]

You change the mask ID byte from whatever it is (8D, 58, 8F, 42, 4F, etc) to "AA". This disables checksum, which is required for emulation to function properly.

[yelruhde]

The checksum reads 58,766. It reads 00 after being set to AA. Setting it to AA in the Hex Editor makes the value 43,662. It was 5E in the hex editor.

Is this correct?

[EagleMark]

Checksum could be anything once you make a change, don't worry about it. Just make Mask ID AA. Then upload to Emulator then verify! I have had many successfuel upload that did not verify! If it fails verify then upload again, and again, I have never had to do more then twice though... save bin, upload, verify, emulate, turn key on and watch CEL for blink, then start and light should go off.

[Six_Shooter]

If the entry in the hex editor that you changed was "5E" then you changed the wrong item, based on your initial posts in this thread.

You are using $8D, correct?

If so, then the value you change should be "8D."

You can do this right from the Scalers menu in Tuner Pro. In the box that says "8D" just type in "AA." The scaler should be named "Mask ID."

[yelruhde]

That makes sense. I changed the value for checksum and not mask id. I'll fix that after work. It is running unbelievably rich. Getting data will be nice, right now I'm assuming way too many things. Most importantly that it knows it is a v6 not a v8.

[yelruhde]

Ok, I set the mask to AA and nothing, So I decided to give up on the 8d and tried A1. Still no data and the Check engine light would not flash.

Frustrated and ready to go buy/order a new ecm, a stock chip went in. Not only does the check engine light flash once with the stock chip, but I can get data thru tunerpro...The truck will not run on that chip, it will barely idle if I pump the gas.

Does anyone have a suggestion for why that would be, or how to correct it?

[EagleMark]

You've proven the AutoProm is not set up correctly and ECM is working. You do not need AA until you make a change. May want to start with new bin? Some tips, no chip in socket, close pin, red stripe on cable to pin 1, on Memcal that would be outside of ECM, on chip type ECM it is on inside of ECM. Both switches on AutoProm in. Set up TunerPro to detect when open, start TunerPro with AutoProm plugged in and it should find it, if not try another USB port or look under Tools Data Acq and Emulation to set paremeters. Have bin and XDF open in TunerPro, upload bin to emulater, VERIFY, emulate, turn key on and watch for blink.

[yelruhde]

I have done all of that. Over and over again. The chip I burned flashed ecm codes.

Tunerpro detects AutoProm, both switches are in, I verify the bin. No flash. No codes from the ALDL. Red stripe towards chip notch. Lever closed, no chip in the top. It runs the same with out the Autoprom cable on it at all.

I tested the G1 and cable to it from the autoprom, there are no bad leads. How can I test to see if the autoprom is working and able to emulate?

[yelruhde]

It could run on LHM, if the values were close enough in the NETRES and RDF chips.

This is exactly what it was doing. Things were changing randmoly and I thought I was impacting what was happening. I still can not get the Autoprom to emulate to save my life, and I'm not a dumb guy.

The truck is running pretty well now. I had to use the Autoprom as a Burn 1 to get there. 0293 and 04F1 are set to 08 to run as a V6 MPFI. There are no codes and the BLM is somewhat happy judging from the values I get using the .adx posted on the second or third page. I need a WBO2 to really get this right, but I'm not going to do that until I can emulate.

Thanks for all the help to get here. If anyone has any suggestions to get the autoprom to emulate I'd really appreciate it. It will do everything else and I've tried every combination of the switches possible.

[EagleMark]

Your AutoProm may be bad? I have no idea how to test but Moates will surely help you.

[Six_Shooter]

Checksum disable (Mask ID set to "AA") is required to make changes using an emulator. If it's not changed to that, the ECM in most cases will switch to LHM, or corrupt bin, at the very least.

Do you have another programmer? BURN2, Willem GQ-3X, etc?

If you do, you can check the emulator output.

Can you take pictures of your set up, with the AutoProm connected?

If the CEL is not flashing when only the AutoProm is connected, the ECM is not reading it, or not reading it correctly.

Try downloading the bin from the AutoProm, to see if the bin has been loaded to it.

[PJG1173]

I had a similar problem when I first started. when I read the chip I used the default settings in tunerpro for the chip type and my bin file turned out to be a fraction of the size it should have been. the truck didn't run real well when I changed the bin and loaded it to the emulator.

[yelruhde]

Pictures attached. I do not have any other tuning hardware or software. When I download the bin to a file it is 32 kb and opens ok.

I can upload those files as well if they would be of any use.

[Six_Shooter]

I can't see anything wrong with your hardware set-up.

I just did some bench testing, to see if maybe using pass through mode was the cause of your issue. In pass through mode, the Emulation side of the Auto Prom appears to go dead, and ALDL data stops flowing, in APU1 Mode, emulator contents are read fine by the ECM, and ALDL data flows fine.

In the pictures it looks like you're set to APU1 mode though.

Have you posted your bin in this thread? If not, upload to here, so we can look at it, and make sure it's ok.

What build version of Tuner Pro are you using?

[yelruhde]

I can't see anything wrong with your hardware set-up.

I just did some bench testing, to see if maybe using pass through mode was the cause of your issue. In pass through mode, the Emulation side of the Auto Prom appears to go dead, and ALDL data stops flowing, in APU1 Mode, emulator contents are read fine by the ECM, and ALDL data flows fine.

In the pictures it looks like you're set to APU1 mode though.

Have you posted your bin in this thread? If not, upload to here, so we can look at it, and make sure it's ok.

What build version of Tuner Pro are you using?

Files are attached, Truck 8D is what I am running. Downloaded Old Truck 8d is what came off of the Autoprom. Made too many changes to the PE and AE tables for the downloaded file to work well, so I started over.

FWIW, the latest FTDI driver is installed, one of the first things to happen. And just for kicks and giggles I installed the cable into G1 the wrong way. It made a difference. The CEL never came on, instead of coming on without flashing, so the Autoprom is doing something. It just isn't right.

As you stated, with the outer switch out, Tunerpro will not initialize the hardware. If there is nothing in the files, it may need to go back to Moates.

Tunerpro Build - 5.00.7575.00

[EagleMark]

Won't help your AutoProm issue but not sure if cylinder volume is set correctly and injector size can't be right on a TBI. Not sure how to set up $8D for TBI. Is your MAP sensor hooked to vacuum in front of TBI? Should be rear port between fuel lines...

[yelruhde]

Won't help your AutoProm issue but not sure if cylinder volume is set correctly and injector size can't be right on a TBI. Not sure how to set up $8D for TBI. Is your MAP sensor hooked to vacuum in front of TBI? Should be rear port between fuel lines...

The computer is set up as a v6 mpfi not a tbi. The injectors are 55lb/hr with an 18 psi spring. They should be flowing just over 64Lb/hr divided by 3 to make the mfpi happy is around 21 lb/hr.

The 4.3 has the same cylinder volume as a 350, there is just 6 of them instead of 8.

It runs and goes down the road ok. The tune is off, but effective.

The MAP is to the front. Its plumbed to the same port as it was when i bought the truck almost 10 years ago.

[Six_Shooter]

For the third time... (I HATE my PC right now)

I used your Truck_8D.bin in my AutoProm attached to a 1227749 on my bench, with success. I don't have a 1227727 wired to be able to test using one on my bench.

I used the 1227730_8D.ADX to connect to Tuner Pro, and it works fine. I don't think I downloaded it from this thread, but your copy and mine are the same size, so I don't think that would be an issue.

Did you say that you can connect the ALDL when you have the MEMCAL installed, without the adapter?

[yelruhde]

As long as a chip is installed, the datastream comes through without a problem. It will not work when I have the autoprom installed to emulate.

[EagleMark]

Your AutoProm may be bad? I have no idea how to test but Moates will surely help you.Your AutoProm may be bad?

[yelruhde]

Your AutoProm may be bad?

That was it...sent the other one back and got the new one in less then a week. Those guys run a good business. This is one very satisfied customer.

[EagleMark]

Never have heard anything but fantastic reviews from Moates.

Also only the second AutoProm I have heard of with an issue. If anyone should have an issue it's me! Used mine A LOT! and dropped it on concrete twice... had to decide to catch laptop or AutoProm, went for both and AutoProm slide off laptop... :homer:

[RobertISaar]

my BURN2 spent a night outside..... in the rain.

still kicking.

[ralmo94]

The relays are not needed. The reason the injectors would not fire in the earlier attempt was operator error. I did not connect the dist ref wire. :mad1:
Old thread I know, but do I learn correctly from this that a 2 barrel tbi can be driven from a 727 with 8d code, and no driver modifications?

[Lq4dime]

Any one have a good tune for 02 2500 2wd silverado

[1project2many]

Old thread I know, but do I learn correctly from this that a 2 barrel tbi can be driven from a 727 with 8d code, and no driver modifications?

No. The 7727 only has one driver and cannot operate two low impedance injectors.