Jeep 7747 Conversion

[crash8212]

If you're buying/making the datalogging cable, you can use an Ostrich 2.0, along with the datalogging cable, to have real time emulation. You can then use a BURN2 to program an EPROM when you're happy with the tune, or you can use the Ostrich as a permanent replacement for the EPROM.

The APU1, has the EPROM Emulator, datalogging cable and programmer all built into one device. The one nice that that the APU1 has that going the seperates route doesn't is the 3 extra channels that can be datalogged.

Thanks Six_Shooter, I may go the way of the Ostrich first to see if this is something I can wrap my mind around and be able to disable a few things (more below). I just "made" the USB ALDL cable with the board that RobertISaar posted the link for. It works although not flawlessly, I may have some tweaking to do in the settings as it does have partial data loss at times. But wow was that simple to set up, MUCH easier than the serial cable and actually cheaper than buying a serial cable to chop up. I ordered 2 boards (1 to mount permanent so all I need is the laptop and another to be able to use on other vehicles should the need arise). I will post a pic or two and a small write up, it really is that simple, and the few things I had to do to make it communicate.

Now that I have been able to log a little on-the-road data I am in need of a little assistance in interpreting it if anyone cares to help. The setup is a 91' 4.3L 700r4 (ECM 1227747) transplanted into a 93 Jeep Wrangler with stock lower (.030+ bore), edelbrock 2114 intake, 2000' Vortec heads, Edelbrock headers, true dual exhaust and no EGR. It falls on its face at half throttle and according to the data it is running VERY lean. All the data says it is lean but the exhaust smells of raw fuel. Could this simply be a faulty O2? I switched from 4.3L to 5.7L injectors last summer before being able to read data and it made a difference but not dramatic. My injector duty cycle is reading at minimum 51% and up to 150% at times in order to compensate. My main question to anyone that can look is that is this truly an issue of too little fuel (either low pressure or insufficient injector size) or the lack of EGR because the ECM still believes it is there. I am also getting a VSS error, could this cause a problem?

New to this data logging thing and I want to learn but I am little overwhelmed by all problems it seems I have.

Thanks to everyone in advance.

[EagleMark]

I'll look at it in AM but 5.7L injecotrs on a 4.3L engine... :yikes: and your lean? I think you flooded your O2 and it is trying to lean, but injector duty cycle is way off too?

What is your fuel pressure?

Wait, did you do the "BPW **Read Me Hack ** " before the data log? If not your injector duty cycle is Prom ID...

[EagleMark]

OK, first you've got so many error codes going that I wouldn't want to use any of that data so got to clear codes, turn things off you don't have etc... without VSS there will be 700R4 issues to deal with.

You do not have the BPW Hack done to bin so data will show it so ignore that.

Data logs should always be started warmed up as you did but also closed loop for good data, unless your good with a spreadsheet and take that data out.

Your throttle blades are open to far, your TPS voltage should be closer to .54 volts, your at .76 and also no IAC counts at idle.

Your BLMs are all over the place, very lean at idle, voltage is a little low and does not come up even when revved to 2000 RPM? I'd be looking at fuel pressure issues, so check charging system, if OK I would look at grounds, since it's a conversion I'm guessing your fuel pump is grounded to frame and probably not a good ground strap to engine block from frame.

[PJG1173]

[QUOTE=EagleMark;10603]I'll look at it in AM but 5.7L injecotrs on a 4.3L engine... :yikes: and your lean? [QUOTE]

Yes, when I first put the 5.7's in my 4.3 I set the flow rate at 61# and was globally lean at 13psi. I had to lower the flow rate to 58# to get it to richen up.

[EagleMark]

He does not have that option in a 1227747. Just BPW. I just looked and 5.7L BPW is 135. 4.3L BPW is 181 !

Not sure what I would do there? Bore and stroke are about the same right? Just missing a couple cylinders? There's so many other fuel paremeters based off this... Think I would use 5.7L bin and set cylinder to 6, copy over 4.3L spark and fuel tables to start, but with the big change in injector VE gonna need a lot of work and with Vortec Head Spark Table is going to need work, maybe rough in a Vortec head bin spark table to start then you'd be way closer to work on the fuel VE.

I just did something simalar, since 1227747 never came with 7.4L and a 700R4 I took a 5.7L 700R4 bin and copied in all the 7.4L engine paremeters. So basically made a stock GM 7.4L engine and 700R4 tranny bin. Took about an hour but guy said it runs great and just needs some tweaking because of the 7.4L engine mods. He was about ready to give up after paying a mail order chip company $250 and several logs and new chips to get no where...

[PJG1173]

bore and stroke on the 4.3 are exactly the same as a 5.7. when using the TBI SA tables on the vortec heads with the 4.3 injectors at stock FP i was globally rich. once I went to a LT1 spark table it started leaning out for me to the point I had to bump up FP to keep up. Then I crossed 80% duty cycle so I switched to 5.7 injectors at stock fuel pressure.

Crash does this have a stock vortec cam or tbi cam? I have a SA table I copied from a 2000 4.3 somewhere on my computer. I'll post it once I find it. that might be a better starting point for you.

here are a couple things I experimented with. first is a screen shot of the 2000 SA table from efilive. second is a spread sheet I used to format it like the SA table in the mask I'm using.

EagleMark, looks like the site does not accept office 2010 document extensions. I had to convert the spreadsheet to office 2007 in order to post it.

[crash8212]

EagleMark,
The fuel pressure runs at around 12psi and will drop to around 9 psi under heavy throttle. There is a good ground present so I doubt power is an issue, although the fuel pump may be a little weak as it has 130k on it (didn't replace it...yet).

PJG1173,
The cam is the stock 91 TBI. Everything is stock other than the heads, intake, headers and injectors.

Factory hp rating for the 91 TBI was around 135, 2000 was around 195hp, other than the cam 190-ish should be close to the rating of this engine which is why I originally believed the injectors were too small.

I am still VERY new to the tuning terminology so this is taking me a few minutes to decipher. I thought this might be a simple issue of turning off the EGR and VSS but now it seems I may be in a little over my head for a first time tuning endeavor. I understand about 99% of what all of you are discussing and suggesting but nearly 100% ignorant on how to go about merging bins, editing VE and SA tables for Vortec heads and such.

I have no idea what the BPW READ ME HACK is


I have 3-4 options at this point and I am trying to make the most cost and time effective judgement.
1 - Call up TBICHIPS.com and have a chip burnt with my specs (I think thats a long shot, but the owner seems to think its not, I am entirely skeptical)

2 - Attempt to learn this myself and buy an Ostrich to tinker a bit until I am sure I can do it then a burner to finalize and nag the heck out of the forum members through it all

3 - I learned today that a friend knows one of the GM engineers that helped originally pioneer the FI system for GM and knows EVERYTHING there is to know about them (according to friend) and he lives less than a mile from me and he still enjoys setting up OBD1 and OBD2 FI systems for his own and his friends race cars (8.0 second Camaros). Will try to pick his brain this weekend if he cares to meet me

4 - Carb and HEI (aka giving up, last resort)

[EagleMark]

EagleMark, looks like the site does not accept office 2010 document extensions. I had to convert the spreadsheet to office 2007 in order to post it.Tell me the extension and file size needed and I'll fix it.

[EagleMark]

EagleMark,
The fuel pressure runs at around 12psi and will drop to around 9 psi under heavy throttle. There is a good ground present so I doubt power is an issue, although the fuel pump may be a little weak as it has 130k on it (didn't replace it...yet).

PJG1173,
The cam is the stock 91 TBI. Everything is stock other than the heads, intake, headers and injectors.

Factory hp rating for the 91 TBI was around 135, 2000 was around 195hp, other than the cam 190-ish should be close to the rating of this engine which is why I originally believed the injectors were too small.

I am still VERY new to the tuning terminology so this is taking me a few minutes to decipher. I thought this might be a simple issue of turning off the EGR and VSS but now it seems I may be in a little over my head for a first time tuning endeavor. I understand about 99% of what all of you are discussing and suggesting but nearly 100% ignorant on how to go about merging bins, editing VE and SA tables for Vortec heads and such.

I have no idea what the BPW READ ME HACK is


I have 3-4 options at this point and I am trying to make the most cost and time effective judgement.
1 - Call up TBICHIPS.com and have a chip burnt with my specs (I think thats a long shot, but the owner seems to think its not, I am entirely skeptical)

2 - Attempt to learn this myself and buy an Ostrich to tinker a bit until I am sure I can do it then a burner to finalize and nag the heck out of the forum members through it all

3 - I learned today that a friend knows one of the GM engineers that helped originally pioneer the FI system for GM and knows EVERYTHING there is to know about them (according to friend) and he lives less than a mile from me and he still enjoys setting up OBD1 and OBD2 FI systems for his own and his friends race cars (8.0 second Camaros). Will try to pick his brain this weekend if he cares to meet me

4 - Carb and HEI (aka giving up, last resort)

Well fuel pressure can't drop to 9, this may be the low voltage I saw on data log. Check charging system to see it is charging to around 14 volts, if not fix it. Then look at how the power wire is run to fuel pump relay and from relay to pump. Could be worn pump or supply line from pump to TBI also.

Other things can be turned off as needed.

Answers to questions!
1. Is not a good option, as I said above...
He was about ready to give up after paying a mail order chip company $250 and several logs and new chips to get no where...

2. Is an option if you want to learn.

3. I used to work for them. It will cost more then option number 1 if he will even take time to talk to you.

4. Not an option.

Can you burn chips yet?

[crash8212]

Well fuel pressure can't drop to 9, this may be the low voltage I saw on data log. Check charging system to see it is charging to around 14 volts, if not fix it. Then look at how the power wire is run to fuel pump relay and from relay to pump. Could be worn pump or supply line from pump to TBI also.

Other things can be turned off as needed.

Answers to questions!
1. Is not a good option, as I said above...

2. Is an option if you want to learn.

3. I used to work for them. It will cost more then option number 1 if he will even take time to talk to you.

4. Not an option.

Can you burn chips yet?

I will check on the voltage to the fuel pump tomorrow and see if there is a drop or bad ground and also check charging system.

As far as the engineer goes, he is a friend of a friend that just enjoys doing it in his spare time from what I'm told. Not as a side business although I was told a few years ago that he would have built me a wiring harness to connect the 4.3 computer to the Jeep main harness for around $100 (total coincidence that its the same guy). I had already made it myself at that point but would have been more than worth the $100 for a plug in setup. If a high price tag turns out to be the case I'd rather fork over cash to someone on this forum that is still in the manner of creating their way of life rather than a retired engineer that already has everything and doesn't need more money. Ill find out more Thursday

BTW #4 was more of a joke. I will not be defeated, only beaten up repeatedly.

I can not yet burn chips. I have to make the decision on either the Ostrich or the APU1, both are beneficial to me but one seems to cut a little of the work out (at this point, that seems a moot point though)

Thanks again for all of your help.

BTW, if I were to log more data for help analyzing, what is the best scenario and time frame to do it in? I know warmed up and in closed loop but is there a min/max time frame and an acceleration or idle period to go through to set a baseline? Anything helps, I'm learning this, the next step is to learn Tunerpro much better once I have learned the purpose of the info it provides.

[PJG1173]

I reccomend the APU1 works real well for me chip reader/writer/emulator all in one package. the 4.3 in my truck is my first tuning experiance too. the learning curve is a little steep but once you get the basics you'll be set and things will fall right into line. sounds like you have one heck of a jeep some pics would be nice! as mentioned these things don't like unsteady voltages or fuel pressure taking care of these should make a big difference. if I'm not mistaken the 91 4.3 came with a 1 wire o2 sensor. you might want to upgrade to a 3 or 4 wire sensor as the headders may mess with the readings if they are long tubes. from the sounds of it you haven't strayed too far from stock. shouldn't be too hard for a first time tuner. IMO you could probably get away with using the 4.3 injectors

[crash8212]

I reccomend the APU1 works real well for me chip reader/writer/emulator all in one package. the 4.3 in my truck is my first tuning experiance too. the learning curve is a little steep but once you get the basics you'll be set and things will fall right into line. sounds like you have one heck of a jeep some pics would be nice! as mentioned these things don't like unsteady voltages or fuel pressure taking care of these should make a big difference. if I'm not mistaken the 91 4.3 came with a 1 wire o2 sensor. you might want to upgrade to a 3 or 4 wire sensor as the headders may mess with the readings if they are long tubes. from the sounds of it you haven't strayed too far from stock. shouldn't be too hard for a first time tuner. IMO you could probably get away with using the 4.3 injectors

I will post a few pics tonight, it really is a bad @$$ little toy. Built for just having fun but has been a pain in the neck. Was built from the ground up, total refab on frame, body, suspension, powertrain and driveline.

I am really hoping that 4.3 injectors will be sufficient but I thought I read that they are only capable of supporting up to 160-170 hp. I know keeping as much stock as possible will make this easier. Never thought that this would have been such an ordeal just to use vortec heads or I would have left it bone stock. The headers are not 'long tubes' but more of a medium length. Just over stock length, basically marginally better than stock manifolds without being shorties. I will look into the 3 wire. The voltages coming off the O2 just don't make any sense, there are times they are in the .050-.09v range.

[JeepsAndGuns]

Hey, sorry for going a little off topic, but in your conversion, what transfer case are you using? Did you keep the stock jeep, or swap in the chevy with the 700r4?
If still running the stock jeep t-case, are you still using the stock VSS and stock speedometer?

[crash8212]

Hey, sorry for going a little off topic, but in your conversion, what transfer case are you using? Did you keep the stock jeep, or
swap in the chevy with the 700r4?
If still running the stock jeep t-case, are you still using the stock VSS and stock speedometer?
It has been so long I am not 100% sure but I believe it is the jeep tcase (np231-j) with Chevy tcase (np231c-hd) planetary gears and drive chain (much stronger) and an SYE kit to double cardan drive shaft.

[crash8212]

It has been so long I am not 100% sure but I believe it is the jeep tcase (np231-j) with Chevy tcase (np231c-hd) planetary gears and drive chain (much stronger) and an SYE kit to double cardan drive shaft.

Again, I'm not entirely sure but I know its a mutt of parts from both jeep and Chevy. I know for sure I used the planetary gearsand chain from the chevy because i had to swap them in which is why I think it is a jeep case. Also I do not have a VSS present (part of my problems) and stock speedometer. It's been a few years since I did it and everything on this jeep was custom so its hard to keep it all straight....should've written it all down

[EagleMark]

My old full size Blazer had a 700R4 but I thought it was a NP241? It did have a chain from Dogde diesel and the Slip Yoke Eliminator with CV joint. But in that truck the VSS in behind the speedo...

If it's just an offroader there's no need for the TCC. For the offroading around here it's all slow rock crawling and although I had WOT tuned and TCC I never used it...

Not sure but if it were me I'd run the 4.3L injectors, if they are not enough add a adjustable regulator and bump up pressure. That's always worked for me.

[PJG1173]

My old full size Blazer had a 700R4 but I thought it was a NP241? It did have a chain from Dogde diesel and the Slip Yoke Eliminator with CV joint. But in that truck the VSS in behind the speedo...

If it's just an offroader there's no need for the TCC. For the offroading around here it's all slow rock crawling and although I had WOT tuned and TCC I never used it...

Not sure but if it were me I'd run the 4.3L injectors, if they are not enough add a adjustable regulator and bump up pressure. That's always worked for me.

somewhere in the late 80's after the NP208 was phased out the full size chevy's were the NP24x, S-series and CJ, YJ, etc were NP23x. very common to take a NP231J and put a NP231C chain, cogs, and back half on the J case.

I ran my 4.3 injectors at 15.5 PSI and idle quality was still good. the pulse width and DC started to get high around 5000 RPM near peak HP for my aftermarket cam, so I went with the 5.7's at stock pressure to provide the fuel I needed over 4500 rpm. chances are your stock cam really won't be flowing enough air to require more fuel than those injectors can handle over 4500 RPM's. running the 5.7 injectors has affected my idle and if I let it idle too long sometimes it will flood out. Of course that still could be the tune but i never had the problem with the 4.3.

[JeepsAndGuns]

Again, I'm not entirely sure but I know its a mutt of parts from both jeep and Chevy. I know for sure I used the planetary gearsand chain from the chevy because i had to swap them in which is why I think it is a jeep case. Also I do not have a VSS present (part of my problems) and stock speedometer. It's been a few years since I did it and everything on this jeep was custom so its hard to keep it all straight....should've written it all down

Its no big deal. If your no longer running the factory spedo, then that answers my question. I was just curious about using the stock vss without the stock ecm, since the stock vss gets power from the stock ecm.

[crash8212]

Yes, the full size used the NP241 while S-series (where engine/trans/tcase came from) and Jeep used the NP231 variation. I am not overly concerned with the TCC as the Jeep rarely sees 55+mph with 37" Boggers that get very angry when driven on concrete. It is meant to be stored at our cabin and only used to cruise the 2-tracks and never have trouble getting through a hole or through the woods. We did go a bit overboard but its a riot to drive and was a blast to build.

Didn't get a chance to check on the fuel pressure and charging system today but hope to tomorrow or Thursday. After doing some brainstorming, the fuel pressure/volume (or lack there of) seems a likely candidate as the pressure drops on acceleration (seems like it hit 8-9 psi) at WOT but nearly stalls out. Could be the regulator, bad wiring, or a weak pump. I will tear into is soon to figure that out, hoping all the while it put me back on track. I will throw the 4.3 injectors back in as well to make sure that 5.7 are not screwing things up too badly by dumping tons of fuel.

[crash8212]

Ok guys, I think I might have found ONE of the significant problems I had with the fuel system. I went to the salvage yard Saturday and picked up a set of injectors. The guy at the counter gave me the whole injector manifold instead of just the injectors themselves. I tore into it this morning and looked at the brass seat on the pressure regulator and noticed it was MELTED to the body and stuck halfway open. I swapped it out with the one from the scrap yard (lucky they went the route of giving me the whole assy) and it made a HUGE MONSTROUS difference. Now, it still stumbles and goes a little flat at WOT but that is because it still has the 5.7L injectors. Thats right, they gave me 5.7L injectors. I neglected to check the color code before I left the yard and I just trusted a scrap yard dogs word OOOOPS! So I logged a little more data and will be throwing 4.3L injectors back in sometime this week. Can't do it today as they are all closed or I would be.

Im attaching the data in case anyone cares to view. I am showing a problem with my O2 sensor reading. I just ordered a 3-wire and will be doing the conversion when it arrives but it will be a few days.

The BLMS and INT look to be in a better range, not perfect but that could be a combo of the O2 being bad and the 5.7L injectors either/or/and other things.

Could someone please explain the BPW HACK to me so I understand what I am looking at (or what I should ignore) when using this Tunerpro mask.

[crash8212]

2548

[EagleMark]

You got error codes 24, 33, 44 and 54 set so data is not good... lean all over, could be the BPW of 5.7L injectors compared to 4.3L Injectors. Also have something wrong with O2 sensor voltage as it is 4.3 Volts most of time and jumps up to 13, 17 volts? Should be 1 or below?

1 down and several to go...

[crash8212]

You got error codes 24, 33, 44 and 54 set so data is not good... lean all over, could be the BPW of 5.7L injectors compared to 4.3L Injectors. Also have something wrong with O2 sensor voltage as it is 4.3 Volts most of time and jumps up to 13, 17 volts? Should be 1 or below?

1 down and several to go...

Yes, I am aware of the problem with the O2 sensor. I ordered a new 3 wire to hopefully fix that situation but have to wait for it to arrive. The injector problem was supposed to be fixed but I was sold incorrrect parts. It is kind of odd the readings that the O2 is giving, I am hoping it is faulty and not really reporting .004 volts. Even with the poor readout, the engine ran SOOOOOO much better than before. It is always nice to make a step in the right direction

As for the errors, how do I read error codes in TPRT? I am attempting to teach myself this program but it is not entirely intuitive and has a steep learning curve IMHO.

So in short, the O2 and injector problems should be removed from the equation shortly.

[EagleMark]

Really don't need a 3 wire unless you have headers that cool off on highway etc and go open loop. You can check wires to that one, with the high spike it may be to close to a spark plug wire? I may have been messing with my adx but it said 4.3 volts which is way beyound possible unless the wire is wrong to ecm... Also just remembered from another thread in conversions if you run the EFI harness to close to spark plug wires can cause issues.

While playing back or connected to data you can use the Item List and choose Error codes in the ADX I built for $42.
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?304-1227747-ECM-Information-42

If you can burn chips you can make the change in the bin file, burn chip and instaed of reading Prom ID you will get BPW and injector duty cycle and the MPG history table would work if you had a VSS, just read the instructions in the XDF file. Not really an issue for you at this point...

[PJG1173]

2548

Nice!

[crash8212]

New data with the correct size injectors and a new o2 sensor (3 wire without the heater hooked up yet). Haven't had a chance to review it yet but it is not running as well past 1/2 throttle as it did with the 5.7 injectors. If I slowly roll on the throttle (VERY slowly) then it will get to 3/4 throttle without bogging out but if I just press it normally it will die at 1/2 throttle.

I cleared the codes also

Old o2 sensor was definitely a junker. Getting good readings now.

Just for the hell of it I am going to throw the 5.7 injectors in to see how it reacts. Don't have an adjustable pressure regulator yet so it is all I can really try. Will post data shortly.

[EagleMark]

I've never seen BLM data change from 120 to 162 and back in same cell from one fram to next, or across board like that? Something is wrong?

[crash8212]

Yes, something WAS wrong. One injector had a bad o-ring. I replaced it and the data got a little better but overall run quality didn't improve much. I swapped the 5.7L injectors back in and WHAMMO! Its purring like a kitten. Just drove it for about 10 minutes. It runs about 90% of where I think it should be, it lacks a little throttle response from 1/2-3/4 throttle at 3000-4500 rpm but if it downshifts it comes alive.

There is a problem I definitely still have (and it is VERY odd indeed). When the fuel gauge reads 1/4 tank or lower and I take a left AND ONLY LEFT hand turn the engine will chug and/or out right die. I was logging data and it did that to me a few minutes ago. Must be a baffling problem in the fuel tank. I am posting the data but I know there were errors in it due to it dying.

[EagleMark]

I'd never expected the 5.7L injectors to run better in a 4.3L ? But the other driveability issues may be the huge difference in BPW between 4.3l bin you have and 5.7L BPW needs...

Pretty common issue with 1/4 tank and sloosh on conversion to tanks without baffles...

[EagleMark]

May run better but BLM are still strange? 108 and next to it 152 and then 114... then 108 will change to 152? I've just never seen that before...

[crash8212]

Yes, it is still strange. I noticed while it was data logging that a few errors had been reported. Something screwy is going on with my netbook while logging. If the battery is below 30% or I have it plugged into the 12v outlet then I can forget about logging data as it causes some sort of interference with the USB controller. I will run it again tomorrow afternoon and try to get better data to go on. All I can really go by is 'seat of the pants' feel and it is almost where it should be. I think had I put a taller gear ratio (maybe a 4.88) in then it would act a little differently as this is still just a v6 trying to turn very heavy 37" tires. I am just happy for a little progress.

I appreciate everyones assistance thus far. I wouldn't have found the problems I did find without the suggestions from everyone. I do have a few things to look into such as possible fuel pump malfunction, low voltage from charging system, WHY 5.7 injectors even work and will need to burn a chip this fall to either remap fuel and spark. The Jeep will be heading to our cabin for the summer and will return in the fall for more mods/upgrades/repairs. It will be here for another week or so unless something drastic goes bad.