76' international scout conversion to tbi

[mountainben]

Hi All, I am new to this communication process so feel free to direct my efforts. I am embarking upon this 76' scout II tbi conversion. I have been reading much information here and am in awe of the resource you all have created, just a little wobbly on the art of navigation. My next step is to visit the local junk (i mean "gold" yard) in search of a doner vehicle. From what i have gathered so far I'm looking for GM vintage 87' to 92' 5.7L (my project engine is an international harvester 345 ci and i am running a stock Chrysler 727 automatic transmission). I have compiled a list of wanted items ie ECM, Harness, sensors, etc. From what I gather the 1227747 would be the preferred ECM. I have read EagleMarks suggestions on collecting parts for the TBI conversion and think i have a good feel for the wrecking yard mission. Any suggestions? 1227747? Is this the proper way to start this thread? How do tags work? I am hoping my learning curve thru this process will eventually be Gold to someone with similar knowledge as myself embarking on this type of project. Thanks in advance, Ben

[mountainben]

Further thoughts on the wrecking yard run. Distributor- I'm thinking i need to find a small cap gm distributor to adapt to my holley points style international distributor. I am retiered but have an extensive background in the machine trades. In looking for this small cap distributor am i looking for the same connectors used on the doner vehicle. More than likely the doner vehicle will be a full size pickup or suburban and will probably have the larger HEI distributor. Do i need to get the larger distributor as well for parts Ie EST module? Fuel System- My thoughts are to aquire as much of the fuel system hardware as possible, certainly all engine compartment fuel lines, pressure regulator, supply and return fittings etc. I have a new plastic fuel tank and plan to adapt an in tank fuel pump, maybe one designed for the doner vehicle? VSS- The international uses a speedometer cable that is driven off the transfer case. I'm thinking an adapter from JTR. EagleMark, your bench setup is genius and i have removed my intake manifold, set it up on a bench, and plan to do all the preliminary wiring per your process. Is there a Write-up that elaborates on wires to the floor, you said half of them would be eliminated, which ones will i need to save. I'm assuming ECM power, Crank wire, Fuel Pump. Like i said, i'm starting at the beginning so I would like to minimize the pain that will certainly result from a lack of research and planning on my part. Ben

[dave w]

Hi Ben,
EagleMark lost his battle with cancer. His passion, wisdom, and sharing of information for the greater good ... "Anything Fuel Injection" ... still lives on within the website he created ... gearhead-efi.com

The "gold" yard has pro's and con's. Wiring harness from the 'gold" yard are likely to have broken connectors, oxidized wires, and deteriorated insulation. I recommend budgeting for a new TBI harness.

With some good machining skills a 1985 - 1991 Corvette Large Cap HEI can be adapted to an IH 345. Basically the DUI large cap HEI for the IH 345 has spud shaft and spud housing mounted to a Corvette distributor. Follow this DUI Link https://performancedistributors.com/product/international-harvester-mv404-446-dui/ and look closely at the bottom of the distributor. DUI machined an extension housing and machined an extension shaft to fit a Corvette distributor.

dave w

[dave w]

Screen shots for an IH 392 TBI Adapter.

dave w

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[In-Tech]

dave w is always so helpful on this site. Always another thought would be to use a 2 wire distributor and mount an external gm efi module. Make sure to heat sink it, also correct the delay time as it needs ;)
-Carl

[mountainben]

Sorry to hear about EagleMarks Passing. RIP Brother your legacy lives on.
Dave/Carl,
Thanks for the info on the distributor, I checked it out and this certainly looks like an option for me. Is the corvette distributor different than other 5.7L chevy distributors? I agree with your new harness approach. Any suggestions where to buy? Should i be looking at remanufactured Throttle body and Chipped ECM as well? I am retiered on a limited budget so i would like to pull this "inject the scout" project off for under $1,000. I will research the 2 wire distributor idea also.
Thanks guys
Ben

[dave w]

Using a GM ignition module is the key to having the GM TBI computer control the spark advance timing. There are several distributor options for triggering an externally mounted GM Ignition Module. The options listed below are new aftermarket GM distributors that can be "made" to work with some machining and fabrication (make an adapter spud shaft and an adapter spud housing for the GM Large Cap HEI distributor like the DUI distributor has for the International 345).

GM offered two types of computer controlled spark advance Large Cap HEI distributors. The Corvette uses a screw down distributor cap. The Non-Corvette uses a spring loaded "J" hook hold down the distributor cap.

Link to Large Cap Non- Corvette HEI distributor with computer controlled spark advance - https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=4752951&cc=1031050&jsn=452

Link to Large Cap Corvette HEI distributor with computer controlled spark advance - https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=1123871&cc=1041264&jsn=569

dave w

[mountainben]

Very Cool, I think i will go with the "J" hook version for $120. less (I dont have a core). Any suggestions for the ECM of choice? 1227747?

[dave w]

The 1227747 is a "good" option for a TBI computer.

The 16197427 is a "better" option for a TBI computer, but sourcing a new 16197427 harness is usually more expensive.

There is also the option of a Dynamic EFI TBI computer http://www.dynamicefi.com/EBL_Flash.php, which may or may not be the "best" option.

My personal choice would be the 16197427 computer, because it has much faster Baud Rate and cost's about the same as the 1227747.

dave w

[mountainben]

Appreciate the response Dave. What would be a good donor vehicle for the 16197427?

[dave w]

Appreciate the response Dave. What would be a good donor vehicle for the 16197427?

The 16197427 has sibling part numbers, 16168625, 16196395, & 16156930 used in 1993 - 1995 S10 pickups and blazers, full size Pickups, & full size Vans with either the 4L60E or 4L80E transmission. The 16197427 and sibling computers are easily identified by the Red / Blue computer connectors.

If you ever imagined or ever considered upgrading the Chrysler 727 to 4L60E or 4L80E overdrive automatic, the 16197427 is the TBI computer to use.

dave w

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[mountainben]

Dave,
Interesting, I had an 99 z71 vortec pu with a 4L60E transmission. The vortec engine decided to self destruct. I'm guessing the 16197427 is the computer that was running the vortec (I remember the red and blue connectors). I aquiered a 92 suburban and swapped the engine from the 92 to the 99. I ran the 92 tbi engine with its original 1227747 (leaving the original computer to run accesories as necessary). I was never able to make the transmission talk and ended up going to a nv 4500 standard. From what i am now learning, the thing to do would have been run the 92 tbi with the 99 computer, thus retaining my ability to talk to the 4L60E. I'm really starting to enjoy this learning curve! Anyway as my present project progresses i will try not to act like i'm sure most of us newbies do and ask to many questions that have been answered many times already. I am learning to search and find. Appreciate your patience with me to this point.
Ben

[dave w]

The 16197427 and its sibling computer part numbers were only used from 1993 to 1995. The 99 z71 vortec did not use the 16197427.

dave w

[mountainben]

So if i use the 16197427 and my set up is basic TBI (IH 345, 727 automatic transmission, Throtlle body and associated sensors from a 5.7L gm donor, aftermarket VSS in the speedo cable, modified GM/IH distributor) where would i start for a bin file? Was the TBI still being used when the 4L60E was inroduced? If i did go to an electronic transmission, what would i use for a bin? What does a person use for computer bin files when mismatching non standard engine/transmission combinations? Take it easy on me now, I am a new student to this process, thanks for being willing to take the time to pass on your expertise, i absolutely appreciate this.
Ben

[dave w]

The TBI - IH345 - 727 starter chip .bin file could be based on a stock 1994 GM 5.7 liter chip BJLF .bin file ( http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?303-16197427-PCM-Information-0D ). The spark tables and fuel tables re-programmed for the IH345. To use the 727 trans, the 4L60E is disabled in the chip programming and the chip is reprogrammed for a NON-Electronic transmission.

Chip reprogramming is very lengthy topic to discuss. The hardware and software for reprogramming a chip are affordable.

The 16197427 and sibling part numbers were used on 4L60E transmission from 1993 - 1995. Yes the 4L60E and 4L80E transmissions were used with TBI engine from 1993 - 1995.

The throttle body and associated sensors from 1993 - 1995 Chevy 350 / engine VIN Code "K" will work with the 16197427. Chevy made so many VIN Code "K" engines ... Google can't count them all...:roll: Likely there is donor VIN Code "K" vehicle near your:thumbsup:

dave w

[mountainben]

Does this (93'-95') sound like a reasonable approach for a pretty smart guy with alot to learn, Or would i be better off going with something more immediately usable (Ie earlier setup with 1227747) with the intention to upgrade as my knowledge allows to the faster computer. I understand that reprogramming is a lengthy topic. I am willing to research and obtain the necessary equipment to do the programming. I have downloaded tunerpro and plan to start loading and learning to work with the files (thanks for the link). Sounds like many of the 93' -95' features including the transmission (depending on donor vehicle) would need to be dissabled or programmed to avoid codes associated with no connection. Can the original chip in the computer be reprogrammed or does one install a chip holder and change chips? I'll become more confident as i further understand the programming process. Proficiency will come with experience. Thanks again Dave, starting to look like you are one of one at this point.

[dave w]

There are multiple options for TBI and every option has a cost / feature trade-off. My choice for a novice, expert, or any skill level between novice / expert is the 16197427 with the Moates.net Ostrich 2.0. The Ostrich will flash with TunerPro RT, no need for chips!

dave w

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[mountainben]

Wow, Looks like the perfect tool for me. So is the 16197427 28 pin? Will i need any of the socket booster or other accesories? I am running a laptop on windows 10. Any problems there with the TunerproRt Moates setup? I can get the equipment/chip and burn a permenant chip once i'm happy with the tune (is one ever really "happy" with the tune). Sounds like this is a good idea based on vehicle dead battery issues. Thanks for this direction :thumbsup:, as a begining tuner this should allow me to experiment on a real time basis, Very Cool! I am headed to the wrecking yard next week in search of a 93'-95' GM vin code K.
Ben

[mountainben]

Dave,
I am looking at getting tunerprort loaded with needed files. I looked at the 5.7 liter BJLF bin you suggested. There is another (next in list) BJLH 94' C-K Truck 5.7L TBI 4L60E 3.73/3.42 gears. My gears are 3.56. any reason not to use the BJLH? additionally there is a BJYL bin file 350 TBI 700r4. Would this get me any closer based on my use of the 727 chrysler automatic? Will i need additional files for tunerpro, xdf? adx? if so please advise.
Thanks in advance
Ben

[c5wagner]

I looked at that 350 TBI 700r4 bin and it has a modified timing table for some specific engine. BJLF, BJLH and BJLJ are all identical timing and fueling and differ only in 4L60E shifting tables. I would use the BJLF as there seems to be some weird extra code in the BJLH bin file on this website that isn't in any of the 3 other BJLH chips I've read. Or I'll attach a BJLH bin I read you can use. You will need the XDF file for editing the bin and the adx for datalogging.

[dave w]

I like the plan to start working with TunerPro RT.

The BJLH .bin file in post #20 is a "Known Good" choice. BJYL_700R4 file is likely a modified file. For a beginner, starting with an unmodified "Known Good" stock chip is a good plan.

Go to the gearhead-efi $OD link: http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?303-16197427-PCM-Information-0D

Download: Advanced $0D TP5 v251.xdf
Download: A217 $0D TP5 v250.adx

dave w

[mountainben]

Thanks Guys,
c5, I appreciate you chiming in here. I downloaded the BJLH file you provided and i also got the .xdf .adx files Dave suggested. Loaded the xdf and the bin files to tunerpro. Do i use the aquisition tab to download the adx file? Probably wont need that till i get my hardware? Any suggestions of where to start my studies within tunerpro? If changes are necessary where will i likely be making them (flags, scalars, tables)? With the thought of Disabeling the 4l60E I looked around a bit and found the manual transmission tab under flags. Says to check this if using a TH 350 or TH 400 with no converter lockup, would this be a good appoach to disable the 4l60E? I'm going to minimize any changes to this bin (i will keep a unchanged copy).
You fellows are saving me from having to learn everything the hard way, I do appreciate the help very much
Ben

[dave w]

This TunerPro link will help: http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?466-TunerPro-starter-Tutorial!-New-users-this-is-a-must-read!-)
it's based on the 1227747. TunerPro for the 16197427 is nearly identical to the 1227747

dave w

[mountainben]

Substantial mountain snow and below 0 temps have dampened my forward momentum here. Junk yards are no place to be with this kind of cold! I continue to "play" with tunerpro and feel like i'm making some progress. I see i was upgraded to Electronic Ignition! Progress man, one foot in front of the other. Any thoughts on this adapter for the 2 bbl international?
http://hamiltonfuelinjection.com/products/3-two-barrel-throttle-body-adapter.aspx

[dave w]

Substantial mountain snow and below 0 temps have dampened my forward momentum here. Junk yards are no place to be with this kind of cold! I continue to "play" with tunerpro and feel like i'm making some progress. I see i was upgraded to Electronic Ignition! Progress man, one foot in front of the other. Any thoughts on this adapter for the 2 bbl international?
http://hamiltonfuelinjection.com/products/3-two-barrel-throttle-body-adapter.aspx

I've designed several TBI adapters. Sample IH 4 barrel design screen shots below. There could be a trade off in TBI adapter design, some adapter designs are focused on flow and other adapter designs are focused on low cost and / or "one size fits all". Sometimes it can be challenging to design an adapter to provide both optimal flow performance and low cost.

Gradcad has time saving downloadable CAD for the "do it yourself" designers: https://grabcad.com/library?sort=most_downloaded&tags=holley

Attached is a drawing for the IH four barrel carburetor / TBI throttle body.

dave w

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[mountainben]

Have you fabricated or had this 2barrel design fabricated? Any feedback on how it worked out? I have machinist buddies who still have access to cnc machine tools and would probably be willing to fab your design for minimal cost. Do you or anyone you know have one of these for sale?

[dave w]

I can design a 2BBL adapter based on the drawing attached in post #25.

The inserted image in this post is an incomplete design that tappers / drafts the 50mm 454 Throttle Body down to 40mm bores on the IH 2BBL intake.

If your interested in knowing more about the design, please send me Private Message (PM).

dave w

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[mountainben]

Once again it's snowing in the mountains of new mexico. I sent a pm on most of this dialog, I just wanted to post some of it here for the sake of continuing this thread for anyone who might be interested in this project. I went to the wrecking yard and found a 95' chevy 1500 pick up with most of what i was looking for. Got the 16197427, throttle body, distributor, fuel lines, air cleaner, harness and associated sensors. I'm thinking you make a good point on using a fresh harness, the junk yard harness is questionable at best. The computer i got says it has BJYL. The donor pick up had the 4l60E. I downloaded the BJLH bin file you recomended, I still plan on using it unless you recommend going with a BJYL file.
Ben

[dave w]

1995 is a UNIQUE ONE YEAR ONLY 4L60E, that uses Pulse Width Modulation (PWM) Torque Converter. BJLH is for a 1994 Pickup. It's personal choice which .bin file to start with, but I would personally select BJLH to start with.

dave w

[stew86MCSS396]

There are multiple options for TBI and every option has a cost / feature trade-off. My choice for a novice, expert, or any skill level between novice / expert is the 16197427 with the Moates.net Ostrich 2.0. The Ostrich will flash with TunerPro RT, no need for chips!

dave w

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Nothing to add here... G1 is pictured in DaveW pic but not mentioned. Sorta remember another thread where it wasn't mentioned and op received his box of shiny new toys from Moates only to find out he still couldn't play! :sad:
https://www.moates.net/g1-memory-adapter-tpi-etc-p-32.html
https://www.moates.net/product_thumb.php?img=images/G1collet.jpg&w=150&h=69
Edit: Kinda went back and read post #1...this is dependent on which computer you decide to use.

[mountainben]

Thanks Stew, I went with the 16197427. Will I need this adapter?