Looking for a better $8D

[JeepsAndGuns]

I think I have pretty much decided to use the 7727 with my jeep 4.0 ecm conversion. Its underhood weatherproof (like the stock jeep ecm) is a factory mpfi ecm, its obd1, tuneable, and I can use tunerpro and my autoprom with it.

I think I have decided to run $8D instead of $A1, 8D is set up for a distributor, and for now I am gonna just use that, I may one day in the future convert to DIS, but not anytime soon. Gonna see how the swap goes first.
I was looking through the few diffrent xdf's I have found and have not really been all that impressed with them. I thought the 7727/7730 and 8D was really popular? but it seems not as much work has been done to the xdf as others. Everything is just all mixed up, instead of being grouped together in diffrent sections and labeled like in the 0E xdf I use for my 7427. Also all the "flags/switchs" make no sense, it seems none are labeled to what actually does what. Also hardly and parameter comments. I have tried a few diffrent ones gotten from here, moates, tunerpro. Seems some have items others dont, some seem a little better than others, but none all that great.
So does anyone have a better 8D xdf? I guess I have gotten used to (or mabey I should say "spoiled") by the 0E xdf I have been using with my 7427 made by 93v8s10. But I even remember back when I had my 7747 and having a better xdf for it. So why no really good ones?

[RobertISaar]

i've always been quite confused by this as well... considering how many guys on TGO alone run 8D, it's kind of odd that the XDFs out there are either incomplete or inaccurate. i think even the Super8D variants aren't 100%.

one more reason why i like my A1.

[34blazer]

*edit* heres what i have, a few things in the bin might be different but you would end up changing everything to match your engine anyway. HTH

[dave w]

Here is an Excel spreadsheet (VE Fixer) for $8D.

dave w

[JeepsAndGuns]

I have that xdf too blazer, seems like I remember reading somewhere that those super aujp xdf's require using super aujp bins? I want a good xdf that you can use with stock bins.

Its times like these that I wish I was smart enough to work on these files, and I would combine all the incomplete ones into a better one, and have parameter names that actually make sense. But I am simply at the mercy of smater people.

I have searched through all the 8D xdf's I have found and have found one thats a little more better labeled and laid out than others, but also doesnt have some items/parameters that others do. I have downloaded so many, I have no idea where I got this one from. So I changed the file name to $8DJP, with JP simply being my initials. I just wanted a way to keep this one seperate from the crap loads of the other ones I have, so I wouldnt loose it. I will post it up for others to look at.

I wish we could find someone who knows how to, and is willing to make up a new/better/more complete $8D from all the others.

[gregs78cam]

Best place to start is with a well commented hac. Then you are pretty much only limited by your imagination.

[EagleMark]

TunerPro XDF and ADX files are community built and shared. Some guys do the work and don't share back. Others start and do what they need, that's why we end up with several incomplete files.

Actually something I have wanted to implement here is an adoption program where people who use certain XDF and ADX start working on them and they keep improving and we keep track of updated files. I have done many as I help others and when I get my hands on a vehicle with that mask ID. But I'd have to say my adopted files are $42, $EE and now working on $0E but it's hard to improve on...

TGO guys went the route of John Pell S_AUJP and it has some bin changes so output data is better. Probably not documented for the beginner, but your not a newb anymore either!

I think before that was the Super 8dm2.ecu file and it is a good one. Some comments have been implemented into the TunerPro file, but it could be better! TunerPro is more capable now. All the information is here:
http://www.edgesz28.com/edgesz28/super8ecu/super8ecu.htm

It is a lot of work to get one of these complete, then figure out how to comment things, then put things in categories like the $0E stuff your used to, or $42 now is way better than a few years ago but that has over 100 hours into it. (I always stop keeping track at 100...)

You took on the EFI dictionary and did a great job and now have a better understanding of terms, because of your efforts now everyone has a place to start. Your up to speed, take on $8D and make it better. I can show you how to make changes in the XDF file. Since Super 8dm2 is started and has lots of comments and even a manual for constants, flags and tables that would be a good start. Take the manual and install it parameter by parameter into XDF in comments. With the way TunerPro RT V5 is set up is's very capable and easy to do. If you find other XDF files have something this does not we can check the hack and copy and paste it in.

After your first 10 hours you will begin to understand how much effort 93V8S10 has into these files he has shared with us!

Here's the Super 8Dm2.ecu file imported and saved as an XDF. Use it with the website manual available at link above and go for it! :thumbsup:

[34blazer]

J&G, S_AUJP is by far the most complete version of 8D out there right now. if youre concerned about using a stock bin, you can grab one and use the "cpy frm cmpr" feature, i used AXXD for my car as it was the closest match for my setup.

[Six_Shooter]

J&G, S_AUJP is by far the most complete version of 8D out there right now. if youre concerned about using a stock bin, you can grab one and use the "cpy frm cmpr" feature, i used AXXD for my car as it was the closest match for my setup.

I don't recommend using an S_AUJP XDF with a non S_AUJP bin. Some of the locations have been changed, and some things are completely missing from the stock bins that are in the S_AUJP bins, that if you use "copy from compare" might change values that you don't want to change.

The items in the XDF are based solely on location, not by name, or function. What this means means is that in two different bins with the same items listed can use two different locations and using the copy from compare can change values that you don't want changed, or change instructional parts of the bin, that should never be changed.

[RobertISaar]

a "quick" way of integrating all of the XDFs for a various application can be done by opening 2 tunerpro instances and using the copy/paste feature when you find something that's present in one XDF, but not another.

[34blazer]

I don't recommend using an S_AUJP XDF with a non S_AUJP bin. Some of the locations have been changed, and some things are completely missing from the stock bins that are in the S_AUJP bins, that if you use "copy from compare" might change values that you don't want to change.

The items in the XDF are based solely on location, not by name, or function. What this means means is that in two different bins with the same items listed can use two different locations and using the copy from compare can change values that you don't want changed, or change instructional parts of the bin, that should never be changed.


i see what you are saying. ive only changed basic things like IAC functions, and small parts of the spark table. something like the extended VE table wont work, if i use the compare feature it shows all zeros.

[JeepsAndGuns]

Not requesting a xdf that has a super nice dictionary comment for every parameter explaining exactly what it does and how. I'm just simply wanting a xdf that has all parameters avalable, and are at least titled correctly.
The parameter titles in the flags area on most all I have seen are horrable. Why cant it just say "error code 13-oxygen sensor failure" instead of "error code mask 23-12-bit 6-13" With no discription of what error code it is. Same thing for the switches for turning features on and off.
I wouldnt have a problem going through and re nameing the parmeters, as long as I knew what correctly goes there. I dont want to label a parameter error code 13 oxygen sensor failure, when its actually the error code 14 egr valve failure. Or call a table something its not. I would also give it better organization if I knew how to move parameters, and make sections (or whatever you want to call them) But I have no clue how to do that. I also have no clue how to add new parameters, and how would I make sure its reading the correct part of the bin? If it involves looking at the hex stuff, I might as well be looking at chicken scratch and trying to read it. All those numbers/letters/symbols in the address make no sense to me.
I am just really scared and relunctant to start doing all that, cause just one tiny boo-boo on my end could mess up my, or someone elses engine if something gets entered wrong. How would you know if its entered in wrong? When you wite a book, you have spell check, but if you make a xdf, I doubt there is xdf check...lol
I would need a REALLY good teacher and some even better laymans terms, very detailed directions, and then I would probably have millions of questions and still be nervous.
I too had thought about opening two tp's and copy and pasteing parameters, if I knew how, and you mention checking the hac. I downloaded it from the 8D thread and looked at it, and I may as well been trying to read japaniese....lol
If I could just get a xdf that had all avalable parameters in it, I would feel a little better about giving them better names and mabey a discription, and grouping them up (would have to learn how) Its just the adding new items/parameters that scares me.

[dave w]

Many years ago, long before there was even a TunerPro V3 available, I used TunerCats for $8D. Over the years, TunerPro has improved, but TunerCats has been somewhat stagnate. I still use TunerCats $8D, for some of the reasons mentioned above. It might surprise some members here, but many of the "One-Line PROM Chip Companies" use TunerCats not TunerPro to edit their .bin files.

dave w

[1project2many]

I know for a fact there are more parameters to adjust in $8D than what can be included in a Tunercat definition file. I spent some time for a friend working out the shift light parameters. When I tried to add them I had to remove parameters to add parameters. I ended up making a separate $8D for manual trans.

As far as making changes to the TP definition file start with something easy like the prom ID or the or scan ID. Look at the hac and locate these values. Remember to subtract $8000 from all the addresses in the hac to get the address used in TP. Prom id is at $0008. Go to that parameter in TP and press F2 to bring up the info for that parameter. Look at the data format and use simple matching skills to figure out what's going on. If you hit a parameter that you don't understand you can skip it and move onto another.

[Six_Shooter]

Many years ago, long before there was even a TunerPro V3 available, I used TunerCats for $8D. Over the years, TunerPro has improved, but TunerCats has been somewhat stagnate. I still use TunerCats $8D, for some of the reasons mentioned above. It might surprise some members here, but many of the "One-Line PROM Chip Companies" use TunerCats not TunerPro to edit their .bin files.

dave w

I'm trying to read between the words on that one, hint on the name?


I know for a fact there are more parameters to adjust in $8D than what can be included in a Tunercat definition file. I spent some time for a friend working out the shift light parameters. When I tried to add them I had to remove parameters to add parameters. I ended up making a separate $8D for manual trans.

As far as making changes to the TP definition file start with something easy like the prom ID or the or scan ID. Look at the hac and locate these values. Remember to subtract $8000 from all the addresses in the hac to get the address used in TP. Prom id is at $0008. Go to that parameter in TP and press F2 to bring up the info for that parameter. Look at the data format and use simple matching skills to figure out what's going on. If you hit a parameter that you don't understand you can skip it and move onto another.

This is basically what I was going to suggest.

I know for me, I just played with XDFs, and compared them (before you could open two instances of Tuner Pro at the same time on the same computer), and clicked around until things started to make sense. I had to use both my PC and my laptop to do this, so copying items was done by hand, not copy and paste. :P

If you have a large screen or dual monitors it makes comparing things easier, you can have both instances of TP open side by side, and not have to switch back and forth.

[dave w]

I'm trying to read between the words on that one, hint on the name?The company is on Ebay ... TP or TB something or another as best I can remember. Then there is Larry's something or another out there in the mid-west somewhere as best I remember. I've also come across a company out in Texas. The basic clue to me if a chip burner is using TunerCats, is how an EGR is disabled.

dave w

[RobertISaar]

care to expand on that last part? when i disable EGR i only tend to send the minimum coolant to enable at maximum. instant disable.

[Six_Shooter]

Yeah, I'd be interested in what the signature is too.

[EagleMark]

care to expand on that last part? when i disable EGR i only tend to send the minimum coolant to enable at maximum. instant disable.Some masks don't go high enough temp to disable completely. I usually disable 3 - 4 ways, temp, MAP, MPH and TPS...

[dave w]

Some of the chips I've read, the EGR speed is disabled by setting the minimum speed to enable EGR at 255 MPH with the EGR enable temperature set to 35C. Depending on the .xdf, the only way to disable EGR is setting the EGR enable temperature to 151C. Depending on the TunerCat .tdf both EGR speed enable and EGR temperature enable are listed. Maybe I'm jumping to conclusions, but it appears to me that a software other than TunerPro was used to edit the chip I read?

dave w

[Six_Shooter]

That could be any software, including a simple hex editor used to change anything. While TC may have been used, I wouldn't state that it was, just because of a couple values, that could be changed to those values in any program.

[dave w]

That could be any software, including a simple hex editor used to change anything. While TC may have been used, I wouldn't state that it was, just because of a couple values, that could be changed to those values in any program.

Point taken / understood.

dave w

[EagleMark]

Many years ago, long before there was even a TunerPro V3 available, I used TunerCats for $8D. Over the years, TunerPro has improved, but TunerCats has been somewhat stagnate. I still use TunerCats $8D, for some of the reasons mentioned above. It might surprise some members here, but many of the "One-Line PROM Chip Companies" use TunerCats not TunerPro to edit their .bin files.

dave wTunerCat has been around a long time and guys stuck with it. Lots of old tuners still use it. Then again there are still phones with cords...

[JeepsAndGuns]

Look at the hac and locate these values. Remember to subtract $8000 from all the addresses in the hac to get the address used in TP. Prom id is at $0008. Go to that parameter in TP and press F2 to bring up the info for that parameter. Look at the data format and use simple matching skills to figure out what's going on. If you hit a parameter that you don't understand you can skip it and move onto another.

This is where it flew right over my head. When you get into hex or chip address (or whatever), thats when I get confused. So this is the area I need the most help on. I have fiddled around a bit on a xdf (havent actually changed anything) but have right clicked on parameters and figured out how to change their names and add or change the comments. But thats the extent of what I have learned. What I need to learn is how to add new items, how to make sure the "address" or where it reads from the bin is correct, and how to change their location on the parameter tree so I can group them up.

[EagleMark]

To move things around go to View, Paremeter Tree, then choose Paremeter Ordered List and you can click on and drag them anywhere.

To make catigories go to XDF, View/Edit Header Info, then look for catigory tab to add catigories.

To place item in catigory right click the paremeter, Edit Paremeter XDF info and choose a catigory you made ealier.

To add an item your going to have to learn some hex so let that one go for now and learn to open 2 TunerPro and Copy one missing item from one into the other.

To start learning hex go to Mask ID or Chip Code Mask and double click and it should say 8D. Right click the Mask ID or Chip Code Mask as it is named in this one and click View Edit and look for address? It's 0x08. Go to Tools, Advanced and choose Hex and look for 8D at 0x08 it will be first row. First spot is 0x00, then 0x01, 0x02, 0x03 till you get to 0x08 and there is 8D. First column is 0, have to stop counting from 1 in hex, computers count from 0, humans start at 1.

If you add things and not sure Edit the XDF paremeter name and leave a ? after the name to go back and check.

Super 8D should not need much added. But catigories would be a big improvement to what your used to.

[1project2many]

This is where it flew right over my head. When you get into hex or chip address (or whatever), thats when I get confused. So this is the area I need the most help on.



$8000 FDB0123 Code goes here ; comments are here
^^^^
Address Value at What numbers to ; comments are after semicolon
address left really mean ; they help us understand code


A real line from the hac:



L8000: FDB $13D9 ; EPROM ID, 5181d
^^^^^^
Address Value at address (code is missing since it's not code) ; comment telling us this is the eprom ID byte.
The ecm ID byte is shown in hex, $13D9, so the author also put in the decimal value, 5181

Another one:



L8008: FCB $8D ; ECM ID BYTE
^^^^^^^
Address Number at address (no code since this isn't code) ; comment telling us it's the ecm ID (or mask ID)

There are multiple ways to say the same thing in this world. h8000, 0x8000, $8000 all mean hex value. L8000 is the disassembler's way of saying the number shown is an address and not part of the code or calibration. In this particular hac the addresses can mess with a beginner. What's listed at $8000 is going to be found at $0000 when using tunercat, TP, or a hex editor. You don't have to worry about why right now, just remember to subtract $8000. The idea right now is to use simple matching skills to understand what you're looking at in the hac, in TP and even in a hex editor if you get that brave.

[JeepsAndGuns]

This is a lot to take in. I think I m gonna star right now with simply trying to get everything organized and into groups/sections, and try to add some better names.
The hex stuff and addresses are not making any sense to me at all right now. So I will need a lot more schooling on those before I fiddle with them any.

[1project2many]

The hex stuff and addresses are not making any sense to me at all right now. So I will need a lot more schooling on those before I fiddle with them any.

I think you're making this into more than it is. Addressing is just a way to find something. Like your house address is a way to find your place among all the others. Like GPS coordinates are a way to locate any spot in the world. It's not something you need to understand like a guru in order to use, it's something to accept as is. You don't have to understand everything about a brick or board to make a stack of them. You don't have to understand everything about how wrenches are made to use them. Treat this the same way right now and you can avoid being intimidated.

[1project2many]

Screen shots included. Tunerpro XDF (your may be different) showing the parameter edit screen. Address is circled in blue and description in red.

2351

Next is hac file. Again address in blue and description in red.

2352

Notice address in tunerpro is 0x00? And address in hac file is L8000? Disregard the "0x" and the "L" and focus on the numbers. I said to subtract 8000 from the hac address to see the TP address, so 8000-8000 is 00, just like in the TP parameter screen. We'll grab another at random.

2353

The address is at 0025. So we start at 8000 in the hac and count up. You'll see 8018, 8019, then 801A, 801B, 801C. No worries. It's just the way you count in this system. After 801F comes 8020 so just keep counting. We get the hac and find this:

2352


(Note: Need to upload correct image above when I get home).
Notice the same description at the same locations? Pattern matching. If the description in TP doesn't match the HAC then you may change it. If you have a paramater in TP with an address that's different from what's in this hac, make a note and ask what's up. As far as checking the math or formulas in TP that might be a post for another day.

[JeepsAndGuns]

Notice address in tunerpro is 0x00? And address in hac file is L8000? Disregard the "0x" and the "L" and focus on the numbers. I said to subtract 8000 from the hac address to see the TP address, so 8000-8000 is 00, just like in the hac. We'll grab another at random.


Ok, thats one of the big things that was confusing me that I wasnt understanding. What I saw in tp as address, and what I was seeing in the hac were not matching. And I wasnt quite understanding the subtract 8000 part.

[JeepsAndGuns]

To make catigories go to XDF, View/Edit Header Info, then look for catigory tab to add catigories.

To place item in catigory right click the paremeter, Edit Paremeter XDF info and choose a catigory you made ealier.


Ok, I did this on a couple catigories, but didnt get the result I was looking for. It appears when I do that, it puts them into folders that you have to click on to open.
What I am wanting to do is have them spaced out and seperated by titled headers or whatever you want to call them. Just like has been done in 0D/0E. It looks like its simply just a blank parameter that has been added in. You can click on them and you can right click and the address of all of them is always 0x00.
So would you simply go and add a new parameter and put the address as 0x00, then just add whatever title and discription you want, and then place it between parameters to seperate them into groups? Would that also be how you add a "read me"?

I have got most all the scalers renamed (ones that needed, or I wanted to anyways) And any parameter I changed either the name of, or comment, I added a * at the end of the name, so someone can come back and proof read everything. I also have them put in a little better order. Still have flags and tables to do.

[RobertISaar]

^ correct, that is how most/all of us do it. just create dummy scalars/flags/tables.

[JeepsAndGuns]

OK, I have gotten everything straightened out, grouped together in labeled groups, and some of the names changed to make it more user friendly. Also added or added to several parameter comments. Anything I either renamed, or added comments to, I added a * next to it, that way someone can double check it and I can keep up with what I did. Been working between 1-2 hours a day on this since mark posted up that xdf.

I have come now to adding parameters thats in other files, but not this one. I have added a few so far. I would look at the address, find it in the hack, double check its there and correct, then copy and paste. Any parameter I have added by doing this, I have added a ** next to it. I have however found parameters in the hack thats not in the xdf's I have, that would be good to have (like last night I added a couple DFCO parameters) but saw a couple more in the hack I would like to add. So how would I go about adding these? After fooling around with this a bit, I can figure out the address, however how do you know what size the thing is? I notice in the edit parameter box, theres size (1, 2, or 4 bytes) How does one know what to enter there? Some parameters I have looked at (working on scalers right now) some are 1 byte, others are two.
I have figured out that "significant digits" is how the value is displayed. With "1" it would display like 1200, where "2" would display as 1200.00. Also found out that "units overide" is what will display next to the value. Enter "degrees" and that will be next to the value showing that the value is in degrees.
So If adding a new parameter (like said, I'm working on scalers right now), how do you know the bit size? Is that in the hac too?

Also, are there any other hacs out there other than the one in the $8D thread? Some of comments on what the parameters are, are very poor, and most of them use abbreviations that I have no clue what they are trying to say.

[JeepsAndGuns]

Hey 1project2many, I noticed in the pics you posted in post #29, that your xdf has v03 on it. Is this a xdf thats been added to or had better comments added? I am looking for as many 8d xdf's as I can find so I can compare them, and add all good ones together and try and get as many good comments and parameters as I can. Just wondering if you might share it, if its something diffrent than whats avalable here or elsewhere.

Same for anyone else, if you have any 8d xdf's you use, I would like to look at them so I can compare them and get everything all into one.

[1project2many]

I have no idea what's what with TP or defs. I download defs when and where I find them when someone asks a question and I need to open a cal in TP to give an answer. If you want to see the $8DE I used then you're welcome to it. I'll try to upload it later tonight.

Parameter size from HAC:
FCB = "Form Constant Byte" = one byte.
FDB = "Form Double Byte" = two bytes.

Also can look at addressing:

L8006 Checksum
L8008 ECM Id Byte
L8009 Num Cyls

Notice the Two byte increment at the checksum and the one byte increment at the ID byte.

You're not likely to see 4 byte values in OBDI GM Land.

[RobertISaar]

You're not likely to see 4 byte values in OBDI GM Land.

oddly enough, you can run across 3 byte values though, at least in the northstar cals(trans fluid life monitor).

[1project2many]

Northstar pcm really was the beginning of a new generation.

[JeepsAndGuns]

What is CARS, and what is SAM?

[RobertISaar]

CARS = computer aided ratio selection.... also known as a forced 1-4 upshift.... also known as OMGWTFANNOYING.

SAM = stay-alive memory. when you key off, a lot of stuff is forever lost, but certain things are retained by battery voltage, mostly learned IAC and fuel trim settings.

[EagleMark]

OMGWTFANNOYING.

:laugh:

[RobertISaar]

that's the first thought that pops into mind.

relatively light on the throttle, going to upshift out of 1st, computer's reaction: HAHAHA, 4TH GEAR, DO IT NOW OR I MAKE YOU LOOK LIKE AN EVEN LESS COMPETENT DRIVER!!!

[EagleMark]

Seriously I busted a gut on that and the wife heard me from shop and wanted to know what the heck was so funny!

Amazing what can be programmed into these ECM/PCM for evil... if only they would have used their knowledge for good of mankind... WAIT! Then we would have nothing to do... :yikes:

[gregs78cam]

WAIT! Then we would have nothing to do... :yikes:

Except buy lots of rear tires :innocent2:

[RobertISaar]

this properly conveys my thoughts on it.

http://i.imgur.com/QeMBT.jpg

[1project2many]

I've read about European heavy trucks that are automatic manuals... Manual transmission that is computer shifted using air solenoids. OE's are working their butts off trying to design automatic trans with minimal fluid but really this is a more cost effective answer imo. And to make life easire add a torque converter like Chrysler did in the '50s. Can idle in gear that way.

[JeepsAndGuns]

I've read about European heavy trucks that are automatic manuals... Manual transmission that is computer shifted using air solenoids. OE's are working their butts off trying to design automatic trans with minimal fluid but really this is a more cost effective answer imo. And to make life easire add a torque converter like Chrysler did in the '50s. Can idle in gear that way.

They have those over here. The eaton fuller autoshift and ultrashift. The autoshift still had a clutch and clutch pedal, all you had to do was push it in to stop, and let out to go, all other times the trans sfhifted itself. The ultrashift they took away the clutch pedal and installed some type of automatic or centafugal clutch. We used to have a international 4300 at work that had to ultrashift. It didnt know the first thing about shifting. It would upshift too soon, and wait way too long to downshift. It sucked. 98% of the time I put it in manual mode and just shifted it with the buttons.


I thought vehicles that had the 7730/7727 and 8d had the 700r4, and I thought that was a non computer controlled transmission? (except for the TCC) It was confusing me because some xdf's called it CARS, while others called it the shift light.

[Six_Shooter]

'7730/'7727 equipped vehicles did use non computer controlled transmissions. 700R4, TH125, and a few others.

[EagleMark]

I thought vehicles that had the 7730/7727 and 8d had the 700r4, and I thought that was a non computer controlled transmission? (except for the TCC) It was confusing me because some xdf's called it CARS, while others called it the shift light.Your reading the XDF like it was a accurate shop manual. It is not, it,s a mask made by a unknown human, some may be accurate and some may not. This is a point where you need to look at hack and see what is really there.

Since the ECM was not a PCM and had no control over transmission shifting, I would say the shift light is a more realistic guess?

I've only seen CARS in LT1 XDF, it is a PCM with 4L60E computer controlled trans, there's obviously others. I don't understand how CARS made it into a ECM that never had a computer controlled trans? So shift light could be an option for the manual trans?

[RobertISaar]

CARS existed back into the 8D and possibly earlier days.... it's just control of a relay (IIRC) that's used to block all shifter positions except for 1st and 4th on the T56 and i think one other 6 speed manual.

[1project2many]

IIRC only last year of TPI Vette had 6 speed trans... 1991. CARS was called CAGS, Computer Aided Gear Selection. Prior to that GM used weak Doug Nash 4 speed OD transmission which was really a T10 with an overdrive planetary set on the back. Same wire and ecm controls used to operate planetary solenoid as TCC in auto trans. Neat idea but ultimately too weak for serious performance. And funny too, because similar idea 3 speed w/ overdrive manual used from '50s to mid '60s was also too weak for serious performance.


We used to have a international 4300 (http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=international+4300) at work that had to ultrashift. It didnt know the first thing about shifting. It would upshift too soon, and wait way too long to downshift. It sucked.
They're pusing to use "progressive shifting" which is earlier shifts based on torque curve. Doesn't feel as fast and seems to lose power but numbers say otherwise time and again. Computers programmed this way can be pretty blind to what the real world needs are.

[RobertISaar]

looking through alldata diagrams.... 90 corvette L98 shows the 1-4 upshift relay.
89 shows it as well.
88 and earlier has some other type of relay, "overdrive relay", i don't think it serves the same purpose though.

so, i'd bet it's somewhere in the 6E code as well.

and i've always wondered: so use the clutch for shifting 1-4, but shifting 4-5 and 5-6 requires no clutch movement, right?

[JeepsAndGuns]

Your reading the XDF like it was a accurate shop manual. It is not, it,s a mask made by a unknown human, some may be accurate and some may not. This is a point where you need to look at hack and see what is really there.


I have been checking the hack, it calls it CARS too. Theres actually a lot of parameters for cars, and a lot of them have question marks next to them, I guess even the person who wrote the hack didnt understand them.

Every time I have copy and pasted in a parameter from other xdf's, I would find it in the hack, make sure its the same/correct, then use the parameter finder to make sure its not already in my xdf and just called something else, then I would copy and paste. I would also edit the title and add ** to the end, so I can keep track of what I have added. It has increased in size from 206kb, to currently 253kb, still some more to go. At the rate I am going, I might be done by the end of the month...lol

[JeepsAndGuns]

CARS existed back into the 8D and possibly earlier days.... it's just control of a relay (IIRC) that's used to block all shifter positions except for 1st and 4th on the T56 and i think one other 6 speed manual.

What the heck is the purpose of that?!?!?
If there was something as stupid as that on a vehicle I owned, it would quickly be disabled.

[EagleMark]

It's a communist plot against the American way...

[1project2many]

The purpose of CAGS / CARS was to improve CAFE compliance. Govt watches average fuel economy for a company's entire fleet of vehicles. Gas guzzlers like Cadillac and hi perf Camaro need to be offset by Aveo's and Metros to keep numbers in line or else big fines. CAGS caused gearshift to bypass 2nd gear position and drop into 4th. This improved economy in EPA mileage testing and helped CAFE.


looking through alldata diagrams.... 90 corvette L98 shows the 1-4 upshift relay.
89 shows it as well.
88 and earlier has some other type of relay, "overdrive relay", i don't think it serves the same purpose though.

Thanks for the clarification. Something has stuck in my mind about a 91 Vette with 6 speed though. Maybe it's just that that was the best TPI plus 6spd to own. Anyway, the overdrive relay is for the Doug Nash trans. http://www.5speeds.com/dne.htm Also called "4+3" as the OD unit could be engaged in 3 of the forward gears.

All shifting required clutch. CARS is attached to the shifter and affects the shift gates. Nothing is affected internally.

Mark, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you. The best boy scouts know the value of being prepared.

[JeepsAndGuns]

Anyone have the error code listing for a $8D car? I'm thinking there are a couple in this XDF thats not actually used.

[JeepsAndGuns]

No one has a error code list? I would much rather trust a list from yall than a random list from the internet. I think there are a couple in the xdf that not correct, or not used. Also want to double check the other ones.
Right now thats the only thing holding me up.

[RobertISaar]

alldata list for 91 firebird w/5.7TPI:

13
14
15
21
22
23
24
25
32
33
34
41
42
43
44
45
46
51
52
53
54

[JeepsAndGuns]

I have the following error codes in there I dont think are used:

16- DIS fault
36- DIS missing signal
55- fuel lean moniter
56- vaccume sensor


On your list above, you dont have, but I do have:

12- no DRP's
62- engine oil temp high
both of these codes are active on ANHT (90 vette)

Is there a reliable site that has a listing of the error codes and what they are, for the camaro/firebird/vette/anything else using $8D?
I want to double check all the codes, then I will pretty much call it done, and let some here check it over before we post it up.

[1project2many]

There are no distributorless ignition codes active in $8D. I've never seen 55 or 56 set. 12 is active in most GM OBDI cals but a scantool won't show it as it's always there when the key is on and the engine is off.

http://tech.corvettecentral.com/2011/01/c4-diagnostic-trouble-codes/
About 1/2 way down the page.

http://www.corvetteguruforum.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?post_id=171640
top of the page

http://www.iroczone.com/2009/10/decoding-ecm-trouble-codes/
Dedicated to F car codes

[JeepsAndGuns]

OK, I think I am finally almost done! It has take a lot longer than I thought, as I had a few times I was real busy and didnt get to work on it for a week or two.
Now this is gonna be far from THE best xdf, but I hope it is much more user friendly and easy to read and find parameters. What I would like now, is to have a couple or so people that know this stuff real good to look it over, read the parameter titles and comments, see if I have any mistakes on discriptions or titles and give me feedback on it.
I am not gonna post it up here untill I get it proof read, I dont want to risk someone getting it and trying to use it if there is a mistake. So simply post up here if you want to check it over for me and I will email it to you.

[EagleMark]

I'll look it over but a better choice would be someone who has an $8D or used it a lot.

[JeepsAndGuns]

Where should I email it to?
Anyone else want to look, PM me your email and I will send it to you.

[EagleMark]

The student has become the teacher! Very nice job! :rockon:

[JeepsAndGuns]

Still have a member looking over the xdf, and is comparing it to a tunercat file. So I figured in the meantime, I could work on the ADX some.

I downloaded the adx from here and opened it up. Wow, the dash on this one sucks, only has 6 items on it, and all 6 were tps..lol. No history tables either. What I would like to do, is add the dash, or one like it, from the 0D/0E adx's made by 93v8s10. Only, instead of the 8 analog guages, remove two since there is not as mutch stuff on 8D, that way there is only 6, but still has the boxes at the bottom for the other items.
The whole way its set up with up/down/left/right and all the numbers to place the guages, its all uber confusing to me. If it wasnt for wanting to remove 2 guages, I would just pull up two tunerpros and just type into one what I see in the other.
So can anyone give me guidence or help on this?

[dave w]

Still have a member looking over the xdf, and is comparing it to a tunercat file. So I figured in the meantime, I could work on the ADX some.

I downloaded the adx from here and opened it up. Wow, the dash on this one sucks, only has 6 items on it, and all 6 were tps..lol. No history tables either. What I would like to do, is add the dash, or one like it, from the 0D/0E adx's made by 93v8s10. Only, instead of the 8 analog guages, remove two since there is not as mutch stuff on 8D, that way there is only 6, but still has the boxes at the bottom for the other items.
The whole way its set up with up/down/left/right and all the numbers to place the guages, its all uber confusing to me. If it wasnt for wanting to remove 2 guages, I would just pull up two tunerpros and just type into one what I see in the other.
So can anyone give me guidence or help on this?

I think this .adx posted in the beginning of this tread is excellent!

dave w

[skwayb]

It is a lot of work to get one of these complete, then figure out how to comment things, then put things in categories like the $0E stuff your used to, or $42 now is way better than a few years ago but that has over 100 hours into it. (I always stop keeping track at 100...)

After your first 10 hours you will begin to understand how much effort 93V8S10 has into these files he has shared with us!



I can totally attest to this statement. The Code59 XDF I made has probably around 500 hours into it. I started with one from a turbo Sunbird for $58, added the code 59 changes, fix descriptions, added notes, added Variable names that match the P4 Document (so you can refer to the chip when you read the P4 doc so you know how it works) then finally after being through it about 10 times, I finally got access to the GM Cal print out with formulas, correct units, descriptions, etc.. So my last version 1.6/1.7 is probably about 99.5% correct if you beleive that what GM documented was correct. I still feel it could use more work to make the table graphing of colors better, linking to the ADX better, using ranges better, etc. The list goes on.

Everyone always wants something different like they want tables/constants displayed in F and not C, or they want this in PSI and not kPa. I got burned out on the XDF stuff... to many little details to check.

I have made ones for $0E, $31, and $OD (mainly trans section and malf codes) so we could piggy back a GM ECM with trans control off the SyTy ECM for a 4l80e. But I never released those. If anyone would like a copy of these, I would glady give them if it helps..

[JeepsAndGuns]

Yea one of my biggest pet peeves is most xdf's/adx's, display in *C instead of *F. Everytime I am working on a bin I have to keep my phone handy so I can use the unit converter app I have so I can convert the C into F.

Dave, I somehow missed that adx. I checked it out and I think the dash is too cluttered, a little too much on there making things hard to read. So I think I might stick with improving the adx I have now, witch I got from the 7730/7727 $8D bin thread.
My own personal prefrence, I have grown to really like the dash in the 0D/0E adx's made by 93v8s10.

[RobertISaar]

for something you work regularly with and temp is the independant variable, change the conversion from X*.75-40 to X*1.35-40. now you can work in *F.

[EagleMark]

How about if you had that $8D adx with a stack of dashbaords including the one you want and historygrams and F and C to start with? Have to right click and choose your gauges, there's also three monitors, right click and put what you want in each.

Need to credit JP86SS for some gauges and historygrams.

[JP86SS]

For the record...
The S_AUJP XDF and ADS files work with stock $8D bins.
ALL of the calibration items are there (Not just the one you want to see)
All of the special changes for the S_V4 are located after the stock calibration area.
Read the docs with it and you'll see what I mean.

The items that are customized in the datastream output also have documentation attached to them to indicate why and how to put it back to stock.
Again, see the included documents (or the commented hac that is "relocatable" and fully assembles to a working bin)

If you are still using ANHT as a reference, you'll have issues following parts of it.
Not bashing the work that was done but it was a great starting point that was continued with to this point with many clarification and corrections.
If you haven't seen the commented file that was done years ago for this, its been on Moates site for a while in the custom binaries section.
Here is a link to it on my site (same files since 2006 I think)
http://users.wowway.com/~JohnandRuth/MonteWeb/files/AUJP_JP2.ZIP

Instead of trying to recreate what has already been done, please help to improve it by investigating the items that are not confirmed.
Easily found by the "???" in the item name.
I have several (if not many) years invested in trying to get all the details right.
Send messages or emails letting me know, post in the S_V4 thread on TGO, doesn't matter as long as you provide some feedback.
I'm working on a new release of the XDF/ADX files with some VE fixing and O2 sensor table spreadsheets that work with the histogram data from TP V5.
Should be getting into the wild here shortly (been saying that foer a while but with my new 406 now running I need them too!
I'd like to include any new dash designs etc that people may have or even catergory ideas.
shoot me a PM or email.
Jp

[JP86SS]

My own personal prefrence, I have grown to really like the dash in the 0D/0E adx's made by 93v8s10.
Create a dash definition "new" in your ADX file and save it.
Open the ADX as a text file in notepad (not MS word, etc)
Open the ADX containing the dash layout that you like in another notepad instance.
Cut and paste the dash definition into the ADX file you want to use at the "new" dash location (overwrite the whole "new" dash item) Just observe the starting and stopping points for the text sections.
Save
Open TP and switch to that new pasted in dash.
then right click selection method to reattach the items to your data correctly.
Quitting TP will prompt you to save the definition, say yes.
Jp

[JeepsAndGuns]

I had a little time to fiddle around with the ADX this afternoon. I have noticed that not all of the error codes are in there. How does one go about adding in all the codes? I loaded and saved the saujp.ads as a adx and was looking at it. Seems like its not gonna be as simple as the copy and paste on the xdf. There is also some bitmasks I would like to add too. Am I just gonna have to set there with two tunerpro instances and manually type in each one by hand? If I'm reading the above post correctly, I should be able to use the items from the saujp ads/adx? The adx wont be much good if you cant see what error code is set.
Also, there is the value for MAT temp, but its in degrees C, then there is a MAT lookup table, one for F, one for C. What exactly are the lookup tables? Is that whats used to make the MAT temp display? If so, how do I make it use the F table so it will display in F.

To answer JP86SS. When I started on this, I was only aware the saujp was not compatable with stock bins, and all the other 8D xdf's sucked. So I set out to combine them and make them more user friendly for people who have done conversions or a have a mostly stock engine. Mine doesnt have as much as saujp, but its not as cluttered and overwhelming. It has just the main/important/and most used parameters. This is the limit of what I can do. If the other smarter people who wrote this stuff, and did the hacks cant figure out the items you have in question, then I am not gonna be able to either.

[EagleMark]

You could open the 2 in notepad and copy one value to other, then may have to add a value to Object Count at top of file, you can add extra, sometimes it will crash tunerPro if you don't. When opened , then saved in TunerPro it will be proper Object Count.


<objectcount>102</objectcount>

or the value

<ADXVALUE id="4" idhash="0x86F3533B" title="Coolant Temp">
<units>Deg C</units>
<packetoffset>0x07</packetoffset>
<range low="-40.000000" high="151.250000" />
<alarms low="-40.000000" high="151.250000" />
<digcount>2</digcount>
<outputtype>3</outputtype>
<MATH equation="X * 0.750000 + -40.000000">
<VAR varID="X" type="native" />
</MATH>
</ADXVALUE>

You can use the same address and have 2 values, one for C and one for F, notice in pictures below same address. In conversion it goes to differant Lookup Table.

When adding the value in the conversion check "Send Converted Data to Lookup Table" The Lookup table converts the computer counts 0 to 255 for a total of 256 to tempreture values.

http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/attachment.php?attachmentid=2632&stc=1&d=1340585646




http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/attachment.php?attachmentid=2631&stc=1&d=1340585646


http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/attachment.php?attachmentid=2630&stc=1&d=1340585646

[JeepsAndGuns]

You could open the 2 in notepad and copy one value to other, then may have to add a value to Object Count at top of file, you can add extra, sometimes it will crash tunerPro if you don't. When opened , then saved in TunerPro it will be proper Object Count.


<objectcount>102</objectcount>

or the value

<ADXVALUE id="4" idhash="0x86F3533B" title="Coolant Temp">
<units>Deg C</units>
<packetoffset>0x07</packetoffset>
<range low="-40.000000" high="151.250000" />
<alarms low="-40.000000" high="151.250000" />
<digcount>2</digcount>
<outputtype>3</outputtype>
<MATH equation="X * 0.750000 + -40.000000">
<VAR varID="X" type="native" />
</MATH>
</ADXVALUE>

You can use the same address and have 2 values, one for C and one for F, notice in pictures below same address. In conversion it goes to differant Lookup Table.



Umm....:yikes:

I can reconize a few words and letters in that, but for the most part it all looks like jibberish to me...lol
How do you even open it up in notepad? Once I do, how do I find the items I want to copy, and then how do I know where the start and finish of said items are, and where I need to paste them into my adx, and know I pasted them in the correct location and didnt mess anything up? You might have to explain this "object count" thing to me a little more, I am still a noob here... Is it how many items are in the adx? So will I need to count how many items I have, then count how many I want to add, then add the two together?

[EagleMark]

I may have over simplified that as I have been doing web type code for years and the new ADX format is very simalar layout to HTML.

Maybe you would be better to make each new entry in the ADX as a new value in TunerPro?

Open the Edit ADX and go to where you want the new value, click on add new item:
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/attachment.php?attachmentid=2638&stc=1&d=1340638554


Then a new item box will open and you can fill it in.

http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/attachment.php?attachmentid=2639&stc=1&d=1340638554

Back to Notepad just open Notepad, not Word or Wordpad. Open the ADX and you will see the entire code. Don't worry it all looks as jibberish, just look for the name you want and be sure you get the entire code. In this instance we got PROM ID, look for title="PROM ID" It starts like this:
<ADXVALUE id="2" idhash="0x86F34E3B" title="PROM ID" >
and ends like this
</ADXVALUE>

Notice open tag, first code < xxx > and close tag, last code </ xxx >

The entire value is this:
<ADXVALUE id="2" idhash="0x86F34E3B" title="PROM ID">
<packetoffset>0x00</packetoffset>
<sizeinbits>16</sizeinbits>
<range low="0.000000" high="3.000000" />
<alarms low="0.000000" high="0.000000" />
<digcount>2</digcount>
<outputtype>0</outputtype>
<MATH equation="X">
<VAR varID="X" type="native" />
</MATH>
</ADXVALUE>

If you do the notpad approach place the entire copied code between where ever you want it, say between MAP KPA and Coolant Temp.

Probably also have to change the ADXVALUE id="2" each value had to have a unique name, since most have started with numbers there is probably already a number 2, I stopped using numbers and use the name of the value, so for this one it would be ADXVALUE id="PROMID"


Object count <objectcount>102</objectcount> is the amount of items in the ADX file, I have had issues with not increasing it when adding new items in Notepad, some say no? But after work is done and you try to open in TunerPro it crashes, increase Object count by amount of items you added, or I found if I have added a bunch and don't remember I add 50, so <objectcount>152</objectcount> then it will open in TunerPro and when you save the file it will calculate correct amount.

[JeepsAndGuns]

Humm, ok, I think I might have it now. Gonna fiddle around with it some and report back.

[JeepsAndGuns]

OK, got it. I was able to figure out the copy and paste from looking at them in notepad. I added in the missing error codes and added in a couple more values I wanted (AE/PE)
If anyone has a $8D vehicle that could test this out on, please do and let us know if it works. Would like to hear some feedback.

[EagleMark]

Nice work Jeeps andGuns! :thumbsup:

[JeepsAndGuns]

Well, it's been a long time coming, but I think its ready for the world to see. So here it is.
Let me know what you think.

[EagleMark]

Looking good! I'm going to use these helping droptopstang to see how they do! :thumbsup:

[dave w]

I'm wondering how to input WBO2 information so the AFR's are in the data stream? Maybe this topic has already been posted?

dave w

[EagleMark]

I know you can on S_AUJP at pin F14? But not sure if it can be added to stock bin?

http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/posts/diy-prom/619463-calculating-range-values-wideband/4968324-post4.html

[dave w]

I know you can on S_AUJP at pin F14? But not sure if it can be added to stock bin?

http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/posts/diy-prom/619463-calculating-range-values-wideband/4968324-post4.html

So I'm wondering, is C21 on a 1227727 the same MAP2 input as the F14 MAP2 input on the 1227730?

dave w

[droptopstng]

thanks jeeps i actually understand what im doing now lol seriously nice to see smart people helping dumb people

[EagleMark]

So I'm wondering, is C21 on a 1227727 the same MAP2 input as the F14 MAP2 input on the 1227730?

dave wLooks like it? But still this is a S_AUJP hack in bin to output to data stream. Without the hack in a stock bin you would have to have a known unused 0 to 5 volt A/D input that could be configured to a value in ADX.

[JeepsAndGuns]

thanks jeeps i actually understand what im doing now lol seriously nice to see smart people helping dumb people

Smart! :laugh: :laugh:

I'm still a noob too!

[Profootbrake2]

Jeepsandguns great job on the XDF and ADX. I looked at both files. The status flags for AE and PE didn,t work for me on my 92 camaro. I used the files together with nothing changed from the way i downloaded it.
I'm using tunerpro rt 5 and autoprom.

[JeepsAndGuns]

Humm. Wonder if something didn't copy and paste just right? Its gonna take someone smarter than me to figure that out, as it will have to do with the code. Something might not be right. Maybe its reading from the wrong spot in the stream or something?

[EagleMark]

I was looking at the ALDL A100 file which I think is correct and a few others and I never saw a bitmask switch for them? So maybe it is not in the V8 $8D? Or did the ADX file pick up some hacks form like S_AUJP ?
From now on we have to go back to the old way of listing in comments which ALDL file it is based off of...

[JeepsAndGuns]

Humm. Well I cant remember what adx file I copied and pasted them from. Guess I should go back and delete them from it if they are not working.

[EagleMark]

I've seen them in other $8D, remember there are more then V8 $8D. Problem with that theory is I don't know what all the ALDL files are for the motors covered, another problem is a AE MAP or TPS and a PE have the same packet offset and bit number?

[Six_Shooter]

I've seen them in other $8D, remember there are more then V8 $8D. Problem with that theory is I don't know what all the ALDL files are for the motors covered, another problem is a AE MAP or TPS and a PE have the same packet offset and bit number?

What other $8D is there besides the F and Y body V8 use?

[EagleMark]

They were listed in the 1227030-27 thread... but in further research they are differant masks.

I went through the ALDL A100.ds file and the 3 values are not there. They are in S_AUJP so that is where they came from. S_AUJP is $8D on steroids built by JP/ John Pell and everything is differant in bin so ALDL data stream output is differant as well.

I removed them for you and went through the ALDL file and checked each value, also added some things that are there and I would find useful, there are more but nothing usable for tuning so I left them out. I used your ADX file and had already added some dashboards, historygrams, reorginized monitors to the way I used them, sorry... if you don't liky, removy but they don't change the way you built your file, only added to. Just wanted to help your effort! Thanks again!

All items added are marked with the value name and "+ Test" so you know what I did and can try them

[JeepsAndGuns]

I nothing wrong with what you did. Just one request, and that's because I don't know how to fix it myself. On the two spots where ae and pe were, they are not just removed, but the boxes themselfs are completely gone. Can those be added back in so other items could be put in those spots?

[EagleMark]

Sure, don't need them back, if you find something else just "Add new Item"

[Profootbrake2]

I tried the S_AUJP V4 Bin and the Flags work with that bin.