introduction from (to?) California [Archive]

jiho

04-11-2019, 06:35 AM

New member with old G-body Malibu afflicted with LD5 Buick V6 (computer-controlled carburetor), which I've been hassling with for years to the extent that work toward something (anything) else has not progressed very far. :happy:

This is a California car (engine is California certified), and the rules here state that any swap ("engine change") must also be California certified. The difference between California and Federal usually boils down to the Calibration PROM, and little else.

One idea is to "change" this motor to EFI without an actual swap, by turning it into an '84-'85 "Hot Air" Buick turbo (SFI, no intercooler). I have a lot of parts for this, including a couple PROMs, but issues have had me dragging my feet. Other ideas: an LO5 (only known California-certified year being 1993, B-body or D-body); or an LT1. Either swap would entail logistics yet to be named, let alone actual parts.

By "known California-certified year" I mean with an EO (Executive Order) from CARB (California Air Resources Board) that explicitly grants the certification. This is what they want you to hand the state Referee when you take your swap for inspection and testing. The CARB website has an archive of EOs you can download.

So that's where I stand. :sad:

Fast355

04-11-2019, 06:48 AM

A L98 would be a fun engine in that car too. TPI setups were smog legal in California in the TPI F-cars and Vettes from 19987-1991 or 1992.

jiho

04-11-2019, 06:52 AM

Those motors are hard to find around here. And "smog legal" remains in doubt, for swapping at least. The EOs I mentioned are missing. There are a couple EOs that allowed them in, but under Federal emissions, not California. The problem was the NOx limit. There is an "Engine Change Hotline" I plan to call, to inquire about this very point.

Fast355

04-11-2019, 06:57 AM

Those motors are hard to find around here. And "smog legal" remains in doubt, for swapping at least. The EOs I mentioned are missing. There are a couple that allowed them in, but under Federal emissions, not California. There is an "Engine Change Hotline" I plan to call, to inquire about this very point.

It would not be hard to piece one together by my thinking. A 350 bottem end is a 350 bottem end. Truck or car block should make no difference. If the block made a difference how could you put a crate engine or reman engine in any of those cars? When you deck a block the ID numbers are taken off anyway. 638 casting block was the same for a F-Car, Vette or Truck. Put a set of centerbolt heads on it and put a TPI setup on top. Grab the serpentine setup off any GM TBI engine. Since those G-bodies had V8s shouldn't be hard to find certified headers or use stock manifolds and get a stock Y-pipe for the exhaust.

jiho

04-11-2019, 07:01 AM

Fast355

04-11-2019, 07:18 AM

Yeah I know, but you missed the point about the "configuration" (as CARB calls it) being legal to swap. The way around that MIGHT be a J.E.T. chip (aftermarket), but that's one of the things I want to call and ask about.

Using a truck block is a good way to do an LO5, too. Lots of truck LO5s.

I did not miss the point at all. Just saying that if the internal and external parts configuration was correct I don't see how the actual engine source makes a big difference provided the casting number matches.

Then again don't get me started on California's anti-car laws.

Here in Texas I would clean up a 4.8 or 5.3 truck engine, install a LS6 intake manifold onto it and bolt it in front of a 4L60E and put it in. Tune the PCM a little and it would blow fractions of the emissions numbers the carb V6 did, have 3x the power and get better mileage. Wouldn't spend much money on it either. The last 5.3 I picked up I spent $150 on.

I did a 6L/4L80E swap on a 1987 G20 van for my brother a while back. Has 2x the power the 305 TBI did and since it now has an automatic OD with a lockup converter in place of the non lockup 3spd TH400 the highway fuel mileage is 3-4 mpg better. That whole swap was done for $1500.

Fast355

04-11-2019, 07:27 AM

My 99 Tahoe also has a 2002 8.1 in it here in Texas. Gets roughly the same MPG as the 350 I pulled out and alot more power.

This was the 6.0L G-van swap post I made. Only thing we have changed is rebuilt the rear end with a new set of 2.73 gears and a locking differential. It runs down the road at 1,600 rpm @ 70 mph and gets 21 mpg. When you want to pass now, you lay into the throttle it drops to 2nd gear, revs up to 4,000 and is up to 100 in a scary little amount of time.

http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?6638-Started-another-swap

dave w

04-11-2019, 07:44 AM

Fast355

04-11-2019, 07:47 AM

One of the Buick V6 EFI conversion I've been involved with was to use the 1985 Buick Electra FWD V6 EFI intake system on a RWD Buick V6 engine. The Buick V6 intake is a mirror image, so reverse mounting a Buick V6 Intake forward / backwards on Buick V6 block works. The Large Cap HEI distributor clearance is a challenge with the FWD intake.

Would using ALL FACTORY Buick V6 EFI components be CARB legal?

dave w

Speaking of which. Weren't the 4.1 Buick RWD V6s GM used in the older cadillacs PFI?

3.8L from a newer F-car might also be a smog legal alternative? Those were strong running and had 4L60Es or 5spds behind them.

jiho

04-11-2019, 07:50 AM

Then again don't get me started on California's anti-car laws.

They would allow an LS swap, but it would have to be bone stock. You'd have to retrofit a pressure sensor onto your gas tank, along with everything else.

"Everything else" is a worse problem with older swaps though. You must have the smog pump and vapor canister stuff, and critical parts like the smog pump switching valve and canister purge solenoid are typically not available, unless you scare them up at the junkyard.

jiho

04-11-2019, 07:54 AM

forgot the quote

jiho

04-11-2019, 07:55 AM

One of the Buick V6 EFI conversion I've been involved with was to use the 1985 Buick Electra FWD V6 EFI intake system on a RWD Buick V6 engine. The Buick V6 intake is a mirror image, so reverse mounting a Buick V6 Intake forward / backwards on Buick V6 block works. The Large Cap HEI distributor clearance is a challenge with the FWD intake.

Would using ALL FACTORY Buick V6 EFI components be CARB legal?

dave w

No, I talked to them about that. The motor you swap in must have the factory exhaust from heads to catalytic converter, and there's no way to make the FWD parts work in a RWD car. The intake manifold would be fine, but not the exhaust.

If somebody made conversion exhaust parts for that hack and got them CARB certified it would be fine, but nobody will.

jiho

04-11-2019, 07:59 AM

3.8L from a newer F-car might also be a smog legal alternative? Those were strong running and had 4L60Es or 5spds behind them.

Yeah, you can do that. Kind of like an LS swap, though. Of course there's no way to do the really interesting swap, the supercharged 3800, because that was only FWD.

Fast355

04-11-2019, 08:16 AM

The more you expand on this. The more I am thinking a TBI 305 or 350 may just be the way to go. GM also released some B-bodies with a 4.3 V6 and from 94-96 a LT1 based 4.3 V8. A 1992-1995 S10 4.3 CPI would run pretty strong with a TBI intake on top and do well on fuel. I say those years specifically because they did not use swirl port heads, had a hotter roller cam and had a balance shaft.

jiho

04-11-2019, 09:39 AM

Anybody got a BBBX chip? 1993 B-body LO5, California emissions, EO on file. :thumbsup:

BBB is the code on the underhood emissions label for my LD5. An LO5 would X that out nicely.

jiho

04-12-2019, 02:48 AM

The problem first of all is just getting that chip. There MIGHT be one at a Pick-n-Pull 200 miles from here. Some yards listed on car-part.com don't answer the phone or e-mail. One had a dead e-mail account. Talked to one, got a crazy ECM part number, told to hang on, eventually just disconnected.

Maybe an omen that this particular idea is not a great one .... :rockon:

Fast355

04-12-2019, 02:52 AM

Anybody got a BBBX chip? 1993 B-body LO5, California emissions, EO on file. :thumbsup:

BBB is the code on the underhood emissions label for my LD5. An LO5 would X that out nicely.

Have you tried Ebay?

jiho

04-12-2019, 02:53 AM

Yes, nothing yet. The problem there is needing the California chip. Most cars were sold in other states.

jiho

04-12-2019, 09:15 AM

You're reading normal logic into it, like I did at first. Then I talked to a district Referee Supervisor about it. That's just not how they think.

They have published guidelines, which specify that the catalytic converter (from the donor) must be "positioned under the vehicle in the same linear position within the exhaust stream as measured from the exhaust manifold outlet." To within 6 inches.

Try drawing a diagram that satisfies that requirement.

jiho

04-13-2019, 12:56 AM

A simple 2D diagram (hand-drawn would do) showing schematically how the stock head-to-converter exhaust components could be re-arranged for a swap that would meet the specified requirement.

c5wagner

04-13-2019, 01:33 AM

jiho

04-13-2019, 05:01 AM

You're looking into this a little hard, I have a 5.7l TBI swapped into my jeep and I'm in California. As long as the exhaust manifolds look stock (I have ramhorn exhaust manifolds instead of the stock rear dump) and you have a catalytic converter with the right EO number, they don't really care to much about the exhaust. The one and only reason I failed my first smog referee inspection was because I reused my jeep charcoal canister instead of the chevy one that was for the engine..... Went to the pick and pull and pulled one out of the same year k1500 and all was good second time around.

My problem with the LO5 swap is, there are plenty of the truck motors, and plenty of cars with the add-on parts, but not (so far) the California-certified PROM chip (BBBX for 1993 B-bodies).

(AWJN or BCWZ for 1993 Cadillac Fleetwood would also work, none of those either.)

dave w

04-13-2019, 05:40 AM

jiho

04-13-2019, 06:12 AM

jiho

04-13-2019, 06:23 AM

There MIGHT be one at a Pick-n-Pull 200 miles from here.

Called. Car not there anymore. Gone.

dave w

04-13-2019, 07:58 AM

I don't know if the Referee opens it up or not. He certainly plugs into it for a scan.

If Cardone sells it, I'd have to think that would pass one way or another. But RockAuto says it's Out of Stock, and gives no way to order. I take that to mean that Cardone sells factory chips that they remove from ECM cores that people send in, and they haven't got any of these (naturally). By "remanufactured" they just mean they've checked them out. But there's never any chip to check out, because everybody removes it before sending in the ECM core.

Most members do not have PROM Chip programming equipment or an Electronics skill set working with PROM Chips. Gearhead-efi has a library of binary files (.bin files) located here: http://www.gearhead-efi.com/gearhead-efi/bin/ If a member has their own PROM programming equipment and the desired Broadcast Code (BCC) the member is looking for is in the gearhead-efi library, then the member can download the desired .bin file and program their own chip.

A1 Cardone will program the .bin file into a PROM Chip according to the BCC. A1 Cardone has the complete GM BCC .bin file library to program chips with. BBBX is only half the BCC code A1 Cardone will need, usually there are 4 numeric numbers after BBBX. See an example here: http://www.gearhead-efi.com/BCCFind/

jiho

04-13-2019, 08:38 AM

Yes, I know about BCCs. And BINs.

If Cardone has BINs they can program, why does RockAuto say it's Out of Stock and not offer any way to order? Cardone has no way to order.

jiho

04-13-2019, 08:46 AM

BTW, when I enter BBBX, BCCFind returns an error.

I have info from CalData (the TunerCAT utility), though.

jiho

04-13-2019, 11:12 AM

A1 Cardone will program the .bin file into a PROM Chip according to the BCC. A1 Cardone has the complete GM BCC .bin file library to program chips with.

This is from the Cardone site:

"GM PROMs, the precursers to FLASH Reprogramming, come directly from O.E. ECM cores and are tested for proper function."

Why RockAuto says it's Out of Stock: Cardone doesn't have any from ECM cores.

See down this page, under "Features & Benefits":

http://www.cardone.com/Products/Product-Detail?productId=71-0001&make=Cadillac&model=Fleetwood&year=1993&info=If+original+prom+chip+is+not+available%2c+con tact+dealer+for+OE+part+number+or+broadcast+code+b efore+ordering.++Proper+number+must+be+entered+on+ order+for+Cardone+to+ship+the+replacement+prom%3a% 3a%3a

dave w

04-13-2019, 06:21 PM

Yes, I know about BCCs. And BINs.

If Cardone has BINs they can program, why does RockAuto say it's Out of Stock and not offer any way to order? Cardone has no way to order.

I don't know why, I don't work for A1 Cardone or work for Rock Auto. Perhaps a phone call to A1 Cordone technical support would yield the requested information asked above.

The last time I purchased a chip from A1 Cardone (1986 Grand Am) was in 1998. As I recall, the chip I received had an A1 Cardone part number on it, not a factory BCC label. The 86 Grand Am uses a 2732 Chip (Type 3 in A1 Cardone Product Link). Starting in the late 80's GM incorporated the 27C256 & 27C512 chip inside the Memcal (Types 1 & 2 in the A1 Cardone Product Link). Perhaps for vehicle applications with Memcals, A1 Cardone only provides matching BCC Memcals?

Some gearhead-efi members, that have chip programming equipment, can reprogram a chip incorporated in the Memcal. For some gearhead-efi members finding the BCC .bin file for a specific vehicle application is all that is required to complete the project. The gearhead-efi BCC .bin library has helped many members since the site started! Admittedly not all BCC .bin files used by GM are in the gearhead-efi library.

BCC .bin files can purchased from TunerCats, but requires a VIN for the specific vehicle application. My most recent BBC .bin purchase ($25) from TunerCats was for a Fiero project (Cadillac 4.9 liter engine swap).

dave w

c5wagner

04-13-2019, 07:33 PM

Does a California Referee open up the computer to verify the correct code on the PROM Chip? Have you searched A1 Cardone for PROM Chips? Would an aftermarket STOCK PROM Chip be CARB Legal?

A1 Cardone: http://www.cardone.com/products/electronics/electronics-products-remanufactured/engine-control-modules-prom-chips

http://www.cardone.com/find-parts/vehicle-parts-listing?make=Cadillac&model=Fleetwood&year=1993

dave w

14130

They didn't even look at my ECM as it was behind my glove box. I passed without a california prom (ARJT) as the visual inspection was the more complicated part. What I've noticed about the California proms is that all the timing is taken out and there is a higher EGR duty cycle. The only way I see the prom being an issue is during the sniffer test if it has a higher NOx reading, but even the leaner higher timing prom I used passed.....

For the OP
-Just keep all the stock sensors (I wired in a 3 wire O2 sensor that the smog ref liked seeing)
-Get a Catalytic converter with the EO for the engine you're using
-You need a VSS sensor with an EO like Jags that run https://jagsthatrun.com/collections/speed-sensors
-Get the charcoal canister from the vehicle you get the motor from
-Get stock exhaust manifolds or headers with an EO
-Use the Stock air cleaner from the engine you're using
-Have the exhaust done at any california exhaust shop and they'll take care of the exhaust issues.

It really isn't that hard to get the engine Swap done and accepted, maybe it was my local area that made it a little easier, but it really isn't that bad.

jiho

04-14-2019, 02:09 AM

I don't know why, I don't work for A1 Cardone or work for Rock Auto. Perhaps a phone call to A1 Cordone technical support would yield the requested information asked above.

The last time I purchased a chip from A1 Cardone (1986 Grand Am) was in 1998. As I recall, the chip I received had an A1 Cardone part number on it, not a factory BCC label. The 86 Grand Am uses a 2732 Chip (Type 3 in A1 Cardone Product Link). Starting in the late 80's GM incorporated the 27C256 & 27C512 chip inside the Memcal (Types 1 & 2 in the A1 Cardone Product Link). Perhaps for vehicle applications with Memcals, A1 Cardone only provides matching BCC Memcals?

Some gearhead-efi members, that have chip programming equipment, can reprogram a chip incorporated in the Memcal. For some gearhead-efi members finding the BCC .bin file for a specific vehicle application is all that is required to complete the project. The gearhead-efi BCC .bin library has helped many members since the site started! Admittedly not all BCC .bin files used by GM are in the gearhead-efi library.

BCC .bin files can purchased from TunerCats, but requires a VIN for the specific vehicle application. My most recent BBC .bin purchase ($25) from TunerCats was for a Fiero project (Cadillac 4.9 liter engine swap).

dave w

See post #29, just above yours.

Cardone reman ECMs come with Cardone labels and part numbers, not original. The same would be true for PROMs. Obviously I cannot speak for 1998. But the Cardone web site is very clear: any chips they would have would have to come from ECM cores. Which is why they don't have any.

I'll look at TunerCats. Problem there would be, what if the Referee wants to open the ECM?

jiho

04-14-2019, 02:13 AM

They didn't even look at my ECM as it was behind my glove box. I passed without a california prom (ARJT) as the visual inspection was the more complicated part. What I've noticed about the California proms is that all the timing is taken out and there is a higher EGR duty cycle. The only way I see the prom being an issue is during the sniffer test if it has a higher NOx reading, but even the leaner higher timing prom I used passed.....

For the OP
-Just keep all the stock sensors (I wired in a 3 wire O2 sensor that the smog ref liked seeing)
-Get a Catalytic converter with the EO for the engine you're using
-You need a VSS sensor with an EO like Jags that run https://jagsthatrun.com/collections/speed-sensors
-Get the charcoal canister from the vehicle you get the motor from
-Get stock exhaust manifolds or headers with an EO
-Use the Stock air cleaner from the engine you're using
-Have the exhaust done at any california exhaust shop and they'll take care of the exhaust issues.

It really isn't that hard to get the engine Swap done and accepted, maybe it was my local area that made it a little easier, but it really isn't that bad.

Sounds encouraging, but when did you have that experience? Things may have gotten tougher lately, but I'm not personally familiar and you hear all kinds of stories. It may vary with location in the state.

c5wagner

04-14-2019, 02:25 AM

Sounds encouraging, but when did you have that experience? Things may have gotten tougher lately, but I'm not personally familiar and you hear all kinds of stories. It may vary with location in the state.

I'm in socal and just got through all this 2 or 3 months ago. I'm definitely in a smog area and in San Bernardino county if that is important.

c5wagner

04-14-2019, 02:32 AM

I also forgot to mention that it helps if you have the VIN of the donor vehicle you get the engine or parts from and make sure you have a park/neutral switch for an auto or a switch where you have to push in the clutch to start if manual. And when you go in, don't call it an engine swap but an engine change, the smog refs don't know the ins and outs of all vehicles so there is a lot that will go unnoticed as long as everything "looks" right, you provide a bunch of EO approved numbers for parts you installed and you pass the sniffer test.

jiho

04-14-2019, 03:16 AM

BCC .bin files can purchased from TunerCats, but requires a VIN for the specific vehicle application. My most recent BBC .bin purchase ($25) from TunerCats was for a Fiero project (Cadillac 4.9 liter engine swap).

Where? I just went there, and didn't find any mention of BINs for sale.

jiho

04-14-2019, 03:27 AM

the smog refs don't know the ins and outs of all vehicles so there is a lot that will go unnoticed as long as everything "looks" right, you provide a bunch of EO approved numbers for parts you installed and you pass the sniffer test.

That's been my impression. The official published guidelines now say the following:

"3. Certification Type - The certification type (California or Federal certification) of the engine and recipient vehicle must be the same or, if not, the engine must adhere to the more stringent standard. For example, a California certified engine may installed in a Federal vehicle but a Federal engine may not be installed in a California vehicle. Proof of the certification type from the manufacturer or CARB EO of the donor engine must be provided at the time of the engine change inspection at the Referee."

Naturally my car is California certified, so this is why I'm quibbling the point. I figure I should try to stick to an engine that has an EO in their archive that I can download and print out, so I can just hand it to the Referee. And that it would be safest to have the correct PROM installed to match.

I have no idea what "Proof of the certification type from the manufacturer" would mean.

c5wagner

04-14-2019, 03:54 AM

I have no idea what "Proof of the certification type from the manufacturer" would mean.
A California Emissions label, or I used a picture of the emissions label I got my motor from myself. See the picture below showing California stuff below....
14132

jiho

04-14-2019, 04:42 AM

jiho

04-14-2019, 04:46 AM

I'm in socal and just got through all this 2 or 3 months ago. I'm definitely in a smog area and in San Bernardino county if that is important.

That seems like a fairly stringent area, and certainly recent. Your Jeep is probably a truck registration, though, right? And you swapped in a truck motor? They probably don't worry as much about trucks as they do about cars.

I'm way up in the north end in a 2-speed idle county (Shasta). As I understand it, the Referee here would give a swap a dyno test though.

jiho

04-14-2019, 04:59 AM

So, not only did dave w remove some of his own posts, he also removed my post that mentioned the fact, and selectively edited my post #22 replying to someone else to remove mention of the subject matter of his removed posts. It would at least help avoid confusion if my responses #19 and #20 to his removed posts were also removed. In any case, I'm reconsidering my participation in this site. This is an Orwellian environment, of a different aspect to what we deal with here in California. We all go off on tangents from time to time, there's no reason for any of this.

c5wagner

04-14-2019, 06:04 AM

That of course could be a problem if you were putting a motor together from parts, lol.

Anyway, another part of my problem is I want to use my choice of tranny, and especially stay away from computer-controlled trannies. This is not just psychological, around here computer-controlled trannies are probably the #1 cause of craigslist postings. The "bleeding edge" motor that would pass my test on this would be a '93 LT1, which has an EO, but of course is hard to find.I just took a picture of the label of an 89 k1500 from some random truck "that I pulled my motor from" at the pick and pull. Same year or newer right lol?

That seems like a fairly stringent area, and certainly recent. Your Jeep is probably a truck registration, though, right? And you swapped in a truck motor? They probably don't worry as much about trucks as they do about cars.

I'm way up in the north end in a 2-speed idle county (Shasta). As I understand it, the Referee here would give a swap a dyno test though.
What's different about the cars, a smog pump and air temperature sensor? Not a big deal.

So, not only did dave w remove some of his own posts, he also removed my post that mentioned the fact, and selectively edited my post #22 replying to someone else to remove mention of the subject matter of his removed posts. It would at least help avoid confusion if my responses #19 and #20 to his removed posts were also removed. In any case, I'm reconsidering my participation in this site. This is an Orwellian environment, of a different aspect to what we deal with here in California. We all go off on tangents from time to time, there's no reason for any of this.
From my perspective, just seems some irrelevance and misinformation was cleared up or removed. Makes it much easier for future people in your situation to get the info they need.....

jiho

04-14-2019, 06:34 AM

I just took a picture of the label of an 89 k1500 from some random truck "that I pulled my motor from" at the pick and pull. Same year or newer right lol?

I just came back to comment on this. Neither a label nor an EO is "proof" of anything, just your statement that a piece of paper applies to your swap. A piece of paper with info that tells the Referee what he's supposed to look at to inspect it.

jiho

04-14-2019, 06:35 AM

From my perspective, just seems some irrelevance and misinformation was cleared up or removed. Makes it much easier for future people in your situation to get the info they need.....

Well now that's putting a positive spin on it! :happy:

jiho

04-14-2019, 08:21 AM

Went to the pick and pull and pulled one out of the same year k1500 and all was good second time around.

This has me wondering. I can see how you might get a Pick-n-Pull motor out of the donor. How do you then roll that 600+ lbs all the way out over all that deep gravel to the point where you can load it into your vehicle to haul it home?

B-bodies with LO3s are available, and every year has an EO. Sure it's substantially less torque, but only 10 hp less than an LO5 ....

Amazing how pathetic your thinking can get .... :laugh:

c5wagner

04-14-2019, 10:48 AM

I just came back to comment on this. Neither a label nor an EO is "proof" of anything, just your statement that a piece of paper applies to your swap. A piece of paper with info that tells the Referee what he's supposed to look at to inspect it.
I'm confused by your wording, but I think the whole process sucks. Like why there are hoops to go through to convert a carbureted polluter to a better fuel injection system. Why can't they just forget the entire visual inspection and only worry about the stuff coming out of the exhaust pipe?

This has me wondering. I can see how you might get a Pick-n-Pull motor out of the donor. How do you then roll that 600+ lbs all the way out over all that deep gravel to the point where you can load it into your vehicle to haul it home?

B-bodies with LO3s are available, and every year has an EO. Sure it's substantially less torque, but only 10 hp less than an LO5 ....

Amazing how pathetic your thinking can get .... :laugh:
From my comment, I meant the charcoal canister.... A pick and pull is still an easy place to get a motor as they have the hoists and forklift to help you..... My problem with Pull yards is that there was a reason the vehicle was there to begin with so it is a gamble unless you do a full rebuild anyway.

jiho

04-14-2019, 12:31 PM

I'm confused by your wording, but I think the whole process sucks. Like why there are hoops to go through to convert a carbureted polluter to a better fuel injection system. Why can't they just forget the entire visual inspection and only worry about the stuff coming out of the exhaust pipe?

Sorry for confusion. The official "Engine Change Guidelines" say that the Referee needs "proof" of which certification the donor engine has, California or Federal. But he only has your word for it that the "proof" you provide actually applies to your donor engine. It does however tell him exactly what motor you SAY it is (year, make and model, as well as certification), which in turn guides his inspection.

I could not agree more with you about that. :thumbsup:

A pick and pull is still an easy place to get a motor as they have the hoists and forklift to help you..... My problem with Pull yards is that there was a reason the vehicle was there to begin with so it is a gamble unless you do a full rebuild anyway.

If that's true it's a piece of cake. As for the gamble, that's true for any junkyard motor. At least at Pick-n-Pull you have a chance to look it over first. It's generally a lot cheaper too. And if it won't cut it, you can take it back.

dave w

04-14-2019, 05:17 PM

Where? I just went there, and didn't find any mention of BINs for sale.

For OBD1 BCC .bin files I email tc@tunercat.com with the OBD1 VIN #.

dave w

jiho

04-14-2019, 10:07 PM

My problem with Pull yards is that there was a reason the vehicle was there to begin with so it is a gamble unless you do a full rebuild anyway.

These days the main reason it's there could be the "Cash For Clunkers" program. Past a certain number of years you won't get much from anybody for it, so that might be your best deal if you just don't want it anymore. Pick-n-Pull is the only yard here that gets those cars.

c5wagner

04-15-2019, 01:10 AM

These days the main reason it's there could be the "Cash For Clunkers" program. Past a certain number of years you won't get much from anybody for it, so that might be your best deal if you just don't want it anymore. Pick-n-Pull is the only yard here that gets those cars.

Well I've pulled plenty of engines from the pick and pull but have rebuilt every single one. For my 69 firebird, I grabbed a 4 bolt main 350 from a truck, grabbed the crank from a 400 block from a truck and some nice vortec heads. Built a very nice 383 stroker that kept breaking axle shafts..... Still, most of the engines I've taken apart that I pulled had oval shaped bores and cracked heads.... Luckily I have a very close friend that owns a machine shop that takes care of me, he even takes the cracked heads and furnace brazes the cracks so they are like new.

jiho

04-15-2019, 02:00 AM

For OBD1 BCC .bin files I email tc@tunercat.com with the OBD1 VIN #.

dave w

How did you find out about this, anyway? Is it mentioned on their website somewhere?

dave w

04-15-2019, 03:52 AM

How did you find out about this, anyway? Is it mentioned on their website somewhere?

I don't remember, I've been doing business with TunerCats for several years now. I don't know if there is a link on the website for OBD1 BCC .bin files. I've purchased several OBD2 .cal files and a handful of OBD1 .bin files from TunerCats, using the VIN #.

For OBD2, I often search autotrader for a VIN # that has the specific powertrain I need a .cal file for. Sometimes autotrader will have OBD1 vehicles listed, but not very often. Sometimes a VIN # can be found by contacting a Craigslist seller.

dave w

1project2many

04-15-2019, 04:21 AM

I believe the first, best step is for you to determine the point at which a reasonable inspector stops inspecting so you can be comfortable moving ahead. You are obviously more concerened than most on this site, and even more concerned than someone who has successfully completed a similar process in the same state. Is that level of concern warranted for the guys in the pits who deal with uneducated kids trying to skirt laws and the people who fail to fully understand the requirements before showing up with an "Engine swap?" Maybe not.

Relevant links are here (https://bar.ca.gov/Industry/Engine_Change_Guidelines.html) and here (https://www.bar.ca.gov/pdf/Smog_Check_Reference_Guide.pdf).

The list of vehicles with L05 engines and California certification from 1987 to 1993 is huge. Everything from pickups to passenger cars shows up in the list. So you should have plenty of vehicles to choose from. So, how to decide a plan?

CARB strongly recommends using a single donor vehicle. I would agree. But after seeing the Engine Change Guidelines it's pretty clear that it can't be a pickup because the rules state the engine must be from the same vehicle class. Passenger car to passenger car. So what next?

If you are wanting a 350 there are only a few choices. There are two calibrations available for the Caprice / Roadmaster vehicles including BBBX and BHHR. There are ten Fleetwood Brougham calibrations available: AXMM, AWJN, AWJP, BCML, BCWZ, BCXA, BCXC, BFZB, BFYZ, and BFYY. Then there is the most interesting of calibrations: BPSL. BPSL is not listed as fitting any specific carline in GM's PROM database. A quick search of the 'net returns two results. One is for Buick commercial chassis, and one is for Caprice commercial chassis. I'm not sure where you'd find one but the rarity of the vehicle might give you an edge with the referee.

So how does the referee know that the equipment comes from the vehicle you state? As you've pointed out, it's circumstantial evidence. The following documents/items add credibility:

Bill of sale for donor vehicle.
Portion of donor vehicle with emissions label attached (like a small piece of the radiator support cut out and brought along).
Block identification matching donor vehicle
ECM that matches donor vehicle
OEM appearing ductwork, wiring, fuel lines, a/c hoses, etcetera.
Exhaust manifolds, charcoal canister, converter, intake manifold that match donor vehicle.

What does not help: A pile of mismatched parts, each being from a compliant vehicle but not in a combination which was ever offered together in CA. Block, exhaust, or intake system that IDs as from a different vehicle class.

What cannot be determined easily: ECM non-compliance if label is correct, calibration non-compliance if the scan ID matches and the vehicle passes dyno testing, inernal modifications to compliant parts if vehicle passes dyno testing.

What I would do: Begin the hunt for a Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham that is L05 equipped. car-parts.com shows three yards selling an engine computer. Two of the three list the BCC's as Cali compliant from the list above. Changing the query to engine returns four pages of vehicles, mostly trucks or vans. I'm not sure why they do that because the truck/van engines are slightly different configuration. But there are a couple listing Roadmaster/Caprice engines. Maybe one of the yards with a Caddy or Caprice will sell the title to the vehicle for a reasonable fee? At the least you can generate a pile of receipts from the same vehicle family to bring to the referee.

Whate else I would do: Start asking people on the interwebz for engine replacement stories and listen to the successes. Attitude and documentation are going to play a big part imo.

jiho

04-15-2019, 05:05 AM

The list of vehicles with L05 engines and California certification from 1987 to 1993 is huge. Everything from pickups to passenger cars shows up in the list. So you should have plenty of vehicles to choose from.

I should, but I don't. First, in California a truck motor is not allowed in a passenger car (not even light duty truck). That reduces the list drastically. The long block could possibly be used, underneath a bunch of stuff from a car.

Second, you haven't read my posts very well. :happy:

As for "California certified," exactly how that's defined for swapping purposes remains to be completely resolved. I still need to call the Engine Change Hotline to try to get some clarification on that. Cars were sold here that weren't truly California certified. As it stands I'm being pessimistic, and going by the EOs that have been posted by CARB.

Anyway, I question whether an LO5 would be worth going to very much trouble for. There is a point of diminishing returns.

jiho

04-15-2019, 05:28 AM

You are obviously more concerened than most on this site, and even more concerned than someone who has successfully completed a similar process in the same state.

Most people on this site don't live in California. And knowing the rules, I'm not going to invest a lot of time, trouble and money based on assumptions and wild guesses about what a Referee might or might not do.

PlayingWithTBI

04-15-2019, 06:11 AM

I can tell you my experiences with CA smog testing; in 2002 I bought my 88 C1500 Silverado 5.7L from a guy who managed a transmission shop in Los Banos (San Joaquin valley). He had recently installed a GM Goodwrench long block and rebuilt the trans. When I bought it I had to get it smogged - no problems, each successive time - no problems. When I moved to AZ in 2008 I had it "emissions" tested - no problems every 2 years since - no problems. Just throw some dirt and oil all over the engine to make it look old and don't offer any information.

c5wagner

04-15-2019, 06:29 AM

Most people on this site don't live in California. And knowing the rules, I'm not going to invest a lot of time, trouble and money based on assumptions and wild guesses about what a Referee might or might not do.

Please go through this page, you seem to be over stressing something that isn't that bad.... https://jagsthatrun.com/pages/dont-worry-they-arent-that-bad-california-smog-laws

jiho

04-15-2019, 09:03 AM

In your (earlier) words:

I'm confused by your wording, but I think the whole process sucks. Like why there are hoops to go through to convert a carbureted polluter to a better fuel injection system. Why can't they just forget the entire visual inspection and only worry about the stuff coming out of the exhaust pipe?

So (now) it "isn't that bad"?

What I'm stressing is the RULE that any motor I swap into my California-certified car must be a California-certified car motor.

All this trivial disputation and hand-waving is getting repetitious.

BTW, that page is VERY out of date. The sticker they show bears no resemblance to what Referees have been using for well over 15 years that I know about.

jiho

04-15-2019, 11:31 AM

car-parts.com shows three yards selling an engine computer. Two of the three list the BCC's as Cali compliant from the list above.

Car-Part.com is mostly stale listings mixed with a few dead links. Most yards don't even reply. I found a few items locally one time, but that was on their own web site that uses a totally different inventory system, and generally doesn't show much of what Car-Part.com says they have.

Thanks for pointing me to the BCWZ listing. I missed that, and have submitted an inquiry. But given the preceding, I'm not optimistic. The web site link gets an "Under Construction." If there's no reply, I'll try the phone number sometime.

BTW, I was put off by your first paragraph. The rest of it is actually more reasonable than I thought, once I ploughed through it all.

But you're in NH? Can't get much farther away, lol.

1project2many

04-15-2019, 12:19 PM

Car-Part.com is mostly stale listings mixed with a few dead links. Most yards don't even reply.
I have purchased items from yards all across the country using car-part. I have also found dead listings on car-part. No, most yards do not reply to email. But with "unlimited minutes" and internet access to check phone numbers, a phone call is a relatively inexpensive investment. And for me it often provides a way to decide whether or not to do business with the yard. I'll accept that Cali may be different, but overall the reference is still useful and their database could locate a Cali vehicle in an out of state yard.

I don't know how you found BCCs and determined them to be California compliant. The only indications I see are car model year and state the yard is in. Neither is conclusive.
A search for an engine computer for a 1993 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham with a 350 produces three listings. Two of the three listings include BCC in the description. The BCC's match up with GM's list of Cali certified Cadillac Brougham calibrations. See photo. The third listing shows the ecm label and VIN which can be used to determine emissions compliance. I have not looked that one up.

BTW, I was put off by your first paragraph. The rest of it is actually more reasonable than I thought, once I ploughed through it all. Thank you for taking the time. None of it is intended to be insultory nor derogatory.

But you're in NH? Can't get much farther away, lol.
Not much. If I am able to offer any help it is through access to and understanding of information that is mostly available online.

FWIW we also have emissions rules and compliance issues here. "Engine replacements" require a trip to the state capital to get approval. Some succeed, some do not. We also have annual safety inspections to abide by. And if you build a custom car or hot rod you have an additional state police conducted safety inspection which must be performed prior to the annual state safety inspection. The same holds true for an insurance total that has been rebuilt.

jiho

04-15-2019, 12:28 PM

I went back and found those two listings. Missed them before. Thanks!

I dunno about the BFYZ "manual hearse" (what TunerCAT's CalData says), but I submitted an inquiry about that, as well as the BCWZ. When I don't get replies I'll try phoning. :happy:

BTW, both of those are listed in the CARB EO, so the BCWZ at least would work for me.

I'm betting the BFYZ is for a TH400 tranny, which had no TCC lockup, no 4th gear let alone 4th gear switch, and hence no wires to the computer. That wouldn't work very well for me.

jiho

04-15-2019, 01:50 PM

A search for an engine computer for a 1993 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham with a 350 produces three listings. Two of the three listings include BCC in the description. The BCC's match up with GM's list of Cali certified Cadillac Brougham calibrations.

You snuck up on me while I was editing #59.

1project2many

04-15-2019, 02:30 PM

The list I included in my first post shows the calibration options GM felt relevant to include. I'm surprised that Tunercat shows BFYZ with the hearse option, as we used the same database for our information and my listing specifically says without hearse. I have also made sure not to interpret the transmission type incorrectly when no transmission type is listed. BFYZ does not indicate transmission type.

BCC= BFYZ3920 Scan id= 3781 Part number= 16193919
Release date= 03/09/93 Engine size= 5.7 Trans Type= all/no listing
ECM/PCM: ECM #16159280
Used in cars: Cadillac
Possibly used in:
FLEETWOOD BROUGHAM

Options:
Without B9Q CONVERSION, HEARSE
With GT4 AXLE, REAR, 3.73 RATIO
With L05 5.7L GAS 8 CYL (5.7K) V8 TBI
With NB2 CALIFORNIA REQUIREMENTS
Without V4U EQUIPMENT COACHBUILDER (NOT TO EXCEED 7200 LBS)

It's a real long shot, but if we can get a VIN from a vehicle with BFYZ then we may be able to confirm transmission type.
Unfortunately the yard with BFYZ doesn't appear to have any other parts available.

Edit: One online site for checking calibrations by VIN is here. (https://tis2web.service.gm.com/tis2web/) Use 1G6DW5278PR727161 with automatic transmission and California emissions and you will be presented with a list of potential calibrations for which you can get further information. Unfortunately this page appears to list the same information that I have access to. There can be gold to be found, sometimes, in checking a calibration history as I do not have that information.

There is another site which will provide complete build sheets but it is a pay for service: https://www.compnine.com/vid.php. I believe it is very reasonably priced but only you can decide if the time spent scouring the 'net for VIN's then plugging them into a decoder is worth the effort.

jiho

04-15-2019, 10:12 PM

I'm assuming TH400 for BFYZ. It rings a bell that the L05 had that option. Of course no replies.

Anyway, the truck L05 has 9.3:1 compression, where the car has 9.8. You could use the truck long block, but it is what it is. Both L03s are 9.3.

1project2many

04-16-2019, 02:48 AM

I'm assuming TH400 for BFYZ. It rings a bell that the L05 had that option. Of course no replies.
Of course. A limited use calibration in a relatively uncommon vehicle is not likely to generate many replies on this forum. Maybe the folks on a Cadillac forum will have the transmission answer?
https://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/forum.php

jiho

04-16-2019, 03:17 AM

As Sherlock Holmes used to say, the game is afoot. :happy:

So I called about the BCWZ, reaching a certain "U Pick U Save" in Anaheim (Orange County, other end of the state). The guy who answered took a message, said another guy would call back. Eventually that guy did and took the 16159280 ECM part number, said he would call back and never did. I called back and the first guy gave me a phone number in Long Beach (south Los Angeles) for a guy named Noe (the contact name Car-Part.com indicated in an acknowledgement e-mail I got after submitting the original inquiry). I called about 4:30 and got a scratchy answering machine with a woman's voice. I think I heard the name "Auto Module Suppliers," that they close at 4, and I could leave a message with a part number. I didn't, figuring I'd call during business hours.

Just now, about a half hour later, Noe called me. Says he worked at "U Pick U Save" for about 9 years, left to start "Auto Module Suppliers" about a year ago, and that "U Pick U Save" is closing out this part of their business and dumping the inventory on him (1000s of parts, he says), which he is due to start receiving tomorrow as it happens. He has my number, and took my name. But told me I might have to call him, as he might forget things.

He did make a point of not just the 16159280 ECM part number, but of asking for the "four letters" which I was happy to provide. This is encouraging, first time I've encountered this level of knowledge, lol.

So we'll see. I don't know these people, the terms are unknown, and I'm not exactly chomping at the bit to give my credit card number. Assuming he finds the ECM and it has the chip.

What have you gotten me into? :laugh:

NOTE: I guess the Car-Part.com listing would be over a year old, since Noe would have still been at "U Pick U Save" as the contact. Had an extension on the contact phone number.

jiho

04-16-2019, 03:18 AM

Of course. A limited use calibration in a relatively uncommon vehicle is not likely to generate many replies on this forum. Maybe the folks on a Cadillac forum will have the transmission answer?
https://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/forum.php

No, I meant replies to my Car-Part.com inquiries. But see the preceding.

c5wagner

04-16-2019, 03:49 AM

In your (earlier) words:

So (now) it "isn't that bad"?

What I'm stressing is the RULE that any motor I swap into my California-certified car must be a California-certified car motor.

All this trivial disputation and hand-waving is getting repetitious.

BTW, that page is VERY out of date. The sticker they show bears no resemblance to what Referees have been using for well over 15 years that I know about.

It isn't that hard of a process is my point, it is just annoying setting up an appointment going, failing your first time for something stupid and then returning; however, now my jeep is 50 state legal for anywhere else I move. My only gripe is that I even had to deal with it in the first place because of some bureaucrats. The actual inspection process isn't hard, just is an unfortunate inconvenience.

jiho

04-16-2019, 05:59 AM

Anyway, the truck L05 has 9.3:1 compression, where the car has 9.8. You could use the truck long block, but it is what it is. Both L03s are 9.3.

GAAK, this L05 is getting very murky. I can't get a straight answer on the truck version. Did it really have a flat tappet cam? The cars had roller. What exactly was the truck compression? And while the Caprice and Roadmaster list 9.8:1, the Fleetwood lists 9.68? The Fleetwood also lists different hp and torque at different rpms. One of the supposed advantages of the L05 was the surplus of truck motors to use as long blocks, with three different cars for bolt-ons. Now it's starting to feel like I'm sticking my foot in it ....

PlayingWithTBI

04-16-2019, 07:15 AM

Lo5 truck engines from 88 - 95 were flat tappet cam, 88 - 93 had the bosses for the spiders used in roller cams, some 94 - 95 did not. Some of the bosses were drilled and tapped, most were not. Weird stuff huh? If you want to convert a truck engine from flat tappet to roller cam it'll cost you ~$500 more comparing new to new.

jiho

04-16-2019, 07:29 AM

Thanks for the info. Not what I want to hear, but what I want to know ....

jiho

04-16-2019, 09:45 AM

I'm assuming TH400 for BFYZ. It rings a bell that the L05 had that option.

Then again, it can't be. Available info says the '93 Fleetwood ONLY had the 4L60 (700R4). So I have NO IDEA what BFYZ is about. :rockon:

jiho

04-16-2019, 10:14 AM

And while the Caprice and Roadmaster list 9.8:1, the Fleetwood lists 9.68? The Fleetwood also lists different hp and torque at different rpms.

This I still don't get. These cars all have the same L05 with the same mechanical components. The only difference is the air cleaner box. How can the compression be different, let alone the power curves? The Fleetwood claims higher numbers at lower rpms:

Caprice/Roadmaster: 180 hp @ 4000 rpm, 300 lb-ft @ 2400 rpm
Fleetwood: 185 hp @ 3800 rpm, 305 lb-ft @ 2000 rpm

Normally I'd look for a different cam. Must be different exhaust?

1project2many

04-17-2019, 12:38 AM

Then again, it can't be. Available info says the '93 Fleetwood ONLY had the 4L60 (700R4). So I have NO IDEA what BFYZ is about. :rockon:

BFYZ is about what many calibrations are about in the GM database. The transmission type is undocumented. It's hard to say why this happened. Possibly the inclusion of automatic trans information s an option seemed superfluous in a car line that only offered automatic transmissions. It is clearly not a manual transmission. It clearly is a "no listing / all" calibration.

This I still don't get. These cars all have the same L05 with the same mechanical components. The only difference is the air cleaner box. How can the compression be different, let alone the power curves? The Fleetwood claims higher numbers at lower rpms:

Caprice/Roadmaster: 180 hp @ 4000 rpm, 300 lb-ft @ 2400 rpm
Fleetwood: 185 hp @ 3800 rpm, 305 lb-ft @ 2000 rpm

Normally I'd look for a different cam. Must be different exhaust?

Replacement GM Cam for Fleetwood and Caprice shows part no 10088155. Same cam as 305 TPI engines.
Cam specs here:
http://www.gmtips.com/3rd-degree/dox/tips/cams/cams.htm

The 9C1 cars got a larger cam but I'd look at the exhaust for the small difference in Caddy and Caprice.

Fast355

04-17-2019, 01:47 AM

BFYZ is about what many calibrations are about in the GM database. The transmission type is undocumented. It's hard to say why this happened. Possibly the inclusion of automatic trans information s an option seemed superfluous in a car line that only offered automatic transmissions. It is clearly not a manual transmission. It clearly is a "no listing / all" calibration.

Replacement GM Cam for Fleetwood and Caprice shows part no 10088155. Same cam as 305 TPI engines.
Cam specs here:
http://www.gmtips.com/3rd-degree/dox/tips/cams/cams.htm

The 9C1 cars got a larger cam but I'd look at the exhaust for the small difference in Caddy and Caprice.

93 Caddy TBI had a weird 1 year only ECM with a Memcal and the one I have had my hands on had the ASR system from the Vettes and electric fans. The absence of the clutch fan may explain the rated power difference.

The TH375 aka 3L80 vanished in trucks in 1990. I doubt they used them in Cadillacs. Perhaps the coach chassis had the 4L80E in them starting in 91 but I doubt that too. I know the LT1 Limos used the same 4L60E that was in the 9C1 Caprice with the large added coolers. Making me believe in all likelyhood the earlier cars used a 700r4 too.

Fast355

04-17-2019, 01:55 AM

GAAK, this L05 is getting very murky. I can't get a straight answer on the truck version. Did it really have a flat tappet cam? The cars had roller. What exactly was the truck compression? And while the Caprice and Roadmaster list 9.8:1, the Fleetwood lists 9.68? The Fleetwood also lists different hp and torque at different rpms. One of the supposed advantages of the L05 was the surplus of truck motors to use as long blocks, with three different cars for bolt-ons. Now it's starting to feel like I'm sticking my foot in it ....

Cars are all flat top piston ~9.6:1 compression. Two different cam flavors. The small 305 TBI cam in the civilian cars and the L98 350 TPI cam in the 9C1 cop cars. Trucks have 2 different piston options. 12cc dished for 9.3:1 and 18cc dished for 8.75:1. Most trucks are flat tappet.

Some of the G30 vans built as cutaway chassis in the mid 90s (with speed goverened TBI units) had roller cams and a different part number engine with a forged crank. Those were also setup with intake and exhaust rotators and larger valve stems to deal with the heat of burning propane or natural gas. They were setup with the GM industrial 350 cam. Peak torque was around 2,000 rpm on those. I have one and it had OEM piston oil squirting jets machined into the mains.

jiho

04-17-2019, 05:06 AM

Cars are all flat top piston ~9.6:1 compression.

In that case only the Cadillac info was close. I was looking at MVMA docs. Maybe the others, someone had poor eyesight and mistook "6" for "8".

jiho

04-17-2019, 05:25 AM

Meanwhile, another problem. I was planning to rebuild a 350C tranny. A suitable prospect is listed by that local yard I mentioned, that has a web site that seems to show actual current stock. So I call them, their system shows it, guy goes out to look and it isn't there. Of course not.

Now I have to start the laborious and pessimistic task of calling other yards listed on Car-Part.com, all of which are 100-400 miles away and no more likely to have hits. I don't know of any other place to even start.

Theoretically I could do a 200-4R instead, but why would the situation be any different.

I suppose I could try hitting up local transmission shops, to see if one has a core they'd sell me ....

1project2many

04-17-2019, 04:23 PM

Sounds like a long fight. I think checking the transmission shops is a great idea. If you have any garages around that seem to have old, crusty cars around they might be able to help as well. I know there are yards out here that aren't on car-part. Does your county have an accessible list of recycling yards?

Out here the vehicles that used that transmission are mostly gone. We have a bad infestation of metal termites. So we have to rely on Craigslist and more frequently Facebook Marketplace. I don't like the idea but I'm actually considering creating an FB account for access to the marketplace. The millennials I work with are getting tired of supporting my car parts habit. :laugh:

c5wagner

04-17-2019, 09:16 PM

No shortage of old vehicles around Southern California, I can easily yank any transmissions I need out of the pick and pulls around 50 miles of me. I even have a 4x4 th350c for a future cj5 project. Why not find a 700r4? The cost for a new driveshaft is negligible when you consider how much easier and cheaper a 700r4 core can be found and built.

jiho

04-18-2019, 08:20 AM

It could come to that. Meanwhile, about a dozen shops to call, one or two other yards ....

Fast355

04-18-2019, 07:46 PM