View Full Version : Fuel Pump, Filter and lines
Used a tool to make GM o-ring line ends and used a GM TBI filter. I used a patch flex line at the engine and no clamps on anything. All o-ring or double flare.
Feel free to criticize. I am learning this is my first one. I did move the pump below the bottom of the tank. Picture shows it above the bottom of the tank. Glad to here the bubble is no trouble in the filter.
One source demanded the pre-filter to be vertical to eliminate the bubble. He claimed it would make the pump noisy.
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EagleMark
04-06-2012, 10:52 PM
I moved your post as it deserves it's own thread. And very nice work! :thumbsup:
I've never noticed a difference because of a bubble? It's just a small bubble inside top of filter. Not like it's a aerated foaming action...
If you read directions on the Carter p5000 or 5001 external pump it does not have to be mounted below tank. That is just optimum position for a fuel pump and has spread through internet like gospel truth. IIRC directions say no more then 18 inches above tank! Usually theres no reason to go that high as top of tank is fine. Biggest issue is no suction leaks between tank and pump or it will suck air. Clogged sock in tank makes it suck air or collapse line, clogged pre filter as I showed in other thread will also make a external pump noisier. As soon as my son pulled in the shop I heard the pump louder and went straight to the clear pre pump filter.
PJG1173
04-06-2012, 10:55 PM
hey that looks pretty slick. :thumbsup: Is that a toyota axle? what is that in?
I've never heard of a bubble making the pump noisy. pumps are usually mounted level with the top of the tank or below to help prime the pump. Ive put them as much as 20" above the tank with no issues.
dyeager535
04-07-2012, 12:10 AM
If you don't mind....what tool did you use to make the lines, and what kind of steel line did you use? I've heard sometimes the seams split when flaring.
I think I've resigned myself to buying the flaring tool for the o-rings, using -AN is about the same cost, and requires more connections unless I start cutting the factory flex lines, which I dislike doing.
I've seen tools that claim to do the flares for about $90, which if I did two vehicles would be worth it. Unless you want to rent yours out. :)
Six_Shooter
04-07-2012, 12:24 AM
This is the flaring tool I have, I have not pulled my manual flaring tools out of my tool box after getting this one. It's been a very worthwhile investment. There are cheaper sources for it, they all seem to be the same parts just with someone else's sticker on it. I'm probably going to sell my manual flaring tools now.
http://www.mactools.com/shoponline/product/tabid/120/p-318195-universal-hydraulic-flaring-tool-set.aspx
http://www.mactools.com/Portals/1/aspdnsf/images/PRODUCT/medium/AC71475_CSE.jpg (http://www.mactools.com/shoponline/product/tabid/120/p-318195-universal-hydraulic-flaring-tool-set.aspx)
EagleMark
04-07-2012, 12:29 AM
That's way nicer then mine that only does flares and swags. But mine has done well. If it's got decent dies and you use some oil they will not split, do them dry and they split.
Does that one do the O ring GM fittings too? Man they look like they'd be hard...
dyeager535
04-07-2012, 12:35 AM
Yes, can't quite justify the expense of that kit like I can a plasma cutter. :) I fully intend to use it on exactly two vehicles, and then perhaps random repairs from then on out, but very infrequent.
If you don't mind, and you want to get rid of the manual stuff, PM me and let me know what tool you have, and how much you want for it! I'm not in a big hurry, but always on the lookout to save a few bucks!
The tool Six_Shooter is showing works great and it is the only tool I know of to form the GM o-ring end. It does not form the line perfect and it tends to pinch the o-ring but I haven't had any leaks. Another option is most parts stores sell the o-ring tubing repair kits that are about 16" long. They come with compression fittings that I throw away. A better connection is double flare using an inverted union. I think Mastercool sells the hydraulic flare tool for about $300. Mine is Snap-On and i don't want to remember what I paid for it.
Six_Shooter
04-07-2012, 12:47 AM
Mine is Snap-On and i don't want to remember what I paid for it.
I'm in the same boat, I know I got a good deal on it, comparative to full MAC pricing, but still would rather not remember. LOL
The Saginaw flares (AKA "GM flares") I have done with it have been great.
The flares are always done right, the first time.
the best part is that because it's hydraulic, you can use it in places that a conventional flaring tool would not fit. For instance, about a week and a half ago, I flared a transmission cooling line on a 2000 Yukon, where the flare itself was located pretty much just below the crank pulley, a conventional flaring tool would have not worked well in that area.
Mine has been used enough to be rebuilt one. Hydraulic leak = $100 wallet leak.
dyeager535
04-07-2012, 01:10 AM
Whoops. Thought there was a manual unit for that flare, wrong style (bubble).
Cannot vouch for the vendor, but at $178, fairly reasonable. Only doing 5/16 and 3/8", but that's all I have in any case. http://www.tooldiscounter.com/ItemDisplay.cfm?lookup=MAS71400
JeepsAndGuns
04-07-2012, 02:46 AM
Wow, I had no idea you could buy a tool that made the o-ring flares! I have always thought how great that would be to have, plus I have been meaning to buy a quality double flare tool. I bought one of the cheap parts store units and it wasnt even worth being a paper weight.
I like that mac one. I may have to look into one once I get some money.
EagleMark
04-07-2012, 05:19 AM
http://www.tooldiscounter.com/ItemDisplay.cfm?lookup=MAS71400Dam, I thought the last link posted to sparkfun was fun... man this one gonna cost me... :rolleye:
This probably sounds like a lecture but I will post anyway. The reason I believe in o-ring and double flare on the pressure side of the system is for safety. I takes a little more time to install but the cost isn't much more than good rubber fuel line. We do accept liability with our installation practices and bad things can happen.
Another thing I plan on doing is installing a Ford inertia switch on the FP feed wire.
Someone asked about what type of fuel line to use. Steel brake line works well but never use copper. I have double flared lines for years using the cheap tools. It can be done if you practice a little.
Six_Shooter
04-07-2012, 07:03 AM
Whoops. Thought there was a manual unit for that flare, wrong style (bubble).
Cannot vouch for the vendor, but at $178, fairly reasonable. Only doing 5/16 and 3/8", but that's all I have in any case. http://www.tooldiscounter.com/ItemDisplay.cfm?lookup=MAS71400
That one has limited dies, the one I use, does the Saginaw, single and double flares, along with the Ford style push connectors, at not much more (from the right source), to do everything you could ever need to do.
Another thing I plan on doing is installing a Ford inertia switch on the FP feed wire.
I would NEVER use a Ford inertia switch. Don't get me wrong, I like the idea, but they are overly sensitive. I've seen a bunch of Ford cars, Mustangs mostly, that when launching at the track shut off just after launch, due to the inertia switch tripping from a hard launch. A few friends that have Fords and are into wheeling have also experienced similar issues, when rock crawling or attempting steep or difficult terrain, and get a sharp jolt when tilting or maneuvering.
I'm a fan of the engine mounted oil pressure safety switch myself.
Is the oil switch a safety switch or back up for a bad FP relay?
Six_Shooter
04-10-2012, 05:53 AM
Is the oil switch a safety switch or back up for a bad FP relay?
It depends on how you wire it.
Hmm How would you wire it to be a safety switch? It would be easy for me to make a change now. I wired it like GM wiring diagram. 92 s-10 2.5
1project2many
04-10-2012, 06:32 AM
GM wiring puts the switch in parallel which means either the switch or the relay can operate the pump. If you wire the switch in series then the pump will not work unless the relay is closed and there is oil pressure too.
Would that change cranking time much or at all ? That would make a good fuel cut off if you lost oil pressure.
The fuel pump relay is powered by the ECM unlike most circuits that are ground controlled. This was done because of a chance of the relay control wire being grounded during an accident.
EagleMark
04-10-2012, 11:56 AM
The fuel pump relay is turned on by ECM but not powered by it, if it is then check your wiring.
1project2many
04-10-2012, 02:23 PM
The relay coil is powered by the ecm but the contacts are battery powered. Cranking time will depend on the engine's ability to build oil pressure and possibly on how quickly the fuel system can purge air as you will lose the two second "prime" function built into the ecm. An advantage is the engine will never start without some oil pressure. Of course additional starter wear, battery draw, and generator / alternator heat may become issues. Everything is a tradeoff. Now if you want to get really creative you could use the starter "crank" circuit to energize a bypass relay which allows the fuel pump to engage during cranking but reverts back to the oil pressure safety circuit after the engine is running. Toyota actually uses a dual coil relay in the pre 95 trucks for a similar purpose.
I was just saying the FP relay magnetic coil is powered by the ECM. In most circuits the ECM controls the ground.
1project2many
04-10-2012, 03:20 PM
Gotcha. That circuit is commonly misunderstood in the world of internet forums and there are quite a few wrong descriptions of it's operation.
From SixShooter:
I would NEVER use a Ford inertia switch. Don't get me wrong, I like the idea, but they are overly sensitive. I've seen a bunch of Ford cars, Mustangs mostly, that when launching at the track shut off just after launch, due to the inertia switch tripping from a hard launch. A few friends that have Fords and are into wheeling have also experienced similar issues, when rock crawling or attempting steep or difficult terrain, and get a sharp jolt when tilting or maneuvering.
I'm a fan of the engine mounted oil pressure safety switch myself.
Just think how many Ford Tech's got paid an hour to reset these.
Thanks for the thoughts and warnings about the inertia switch.
Tunedperformance
04-10-2012, 09:01 PM
I got that when it first came out years ago from mastercool it's a awesome tool to have
Just to clarify about the O-Ring fittings that are formed by my Snap-On hydraulic flare tool. I cam up with a picture from GM that shows two types of o-ring ends. The stock GM fuel line is a captured type and my Snap-On tool produces the non-captured type. The fittings don't leak but they do slightly pinch and tear the o-ring. If you notice the OD is slightly smaller where the o-ring is installed.
2229
dyeager535
04-13-2012, 06:46 PM
Obviously it's just a drawing, but they show a thinner o-ring to boot. I assume you used the "stock" o-ring for that size tubing?
Has anyone found a reasonable source for the fuel proof (Viton, right?) o-rings in reasonable quantities? I visited a place in Seattle that was really knowledgable on o-rings, and had a ton of stock of them, and they made mention at the time that they sold them in a min quantity of 100. They gave me a couple free (which was all I needed) but I've not had need of a vendor since. Would be nice to get the right fuel injector o-rings, not to mention the fuel/power steering o-rings without paying GM's prices. Not that they were ridiculously expensive, but I'm sure they can be had significantly cheaper elsewhere.
You are correct I used the origial size of o-ring. I have not tried to find a size that is correct.
EagleMark
04-13-2012, 08:22 PM
How much was a quantity of 100? Maybe we can get a few people to chip in a but a 100 each, I'd be in for 1/4 of them. I have no need for TBI injector O rings as Mr Injector gives the O rings and gaskets needed when you get your TBI or other injectors serviced.
1project2many
04-13-2012, 08:26 PM
I've also used that tool for years, and I use O rings purchased at the local parts store labelled as "9mm" and "7mm" for the 3/8" and 5/16" steel lines. No problems, less tearing. The tool is awesome along with the arrangement of expensive tubing benders I use. But there are some fittings which are still out of reach: Ford power steering fittings. Ford does fun stuff like make the tubing 3/8" diameter up to the O'ring then 5/16" for another 1/2". There's no way to duplicate that. And GM transmission lines. The crimped fitting is almost right but the OD doesn't quite fit in the fittings. I have to sand the OD of the tubing until it fits and even then it's tight. And some newer GM fuel lines. Like Ford, they've decided to change the diameter of the tubing and O ring so it's smaller than the line it's made from. I have no qualms about using rubber fuel hose as long as the length is kept to a minimum, it's routed and secured safely, and the fittings it's slipped over use some type of barb.
Now does anyone know where I can find the worm clamps typically found on European cars? The ones which don't have holes for the thread of the pinch bolt, but have a stamped surface instead?
EagleMark
04-13-2012, 08:43 PM
Now does anyone know where I can find the worm clamps typically found on European cars? The ones which don't have holes for the thread of the pinch bolt, but have a stamped surface instead?No but I like them to as they don't tear the rubber fuel line. Older American cars had one similar on radiator hoses years ago, when you loosen the screw you need to hit the screw down to release clamp. My LT1 uses all spring clamps on coolant hoses which do not damage the hose, they also come in replacement fuel filters for carb cars. But I don't think they are rated for EFI pressure...
Is this the type of clamp you are looking for?
2233
dyeager535
04-13-2012, 09:54 PM
I'll have to see if they are still around. I used to spend more time in that area, but I've moved a fair distance away. What are the specs for the return and feed lines? I believe they need to know type (Viton as I recall) as well as ID, OD, and thickness of the o-ring. Anyone have that info handy?
1project2many
04-14-2012, 12:12 AM
Poze, yes those are the clamps.
Eaglemark, spring clamps will work for EFI but you have to get the sizing right. Spring clamps (constant tension type) are good because they will automatically self adjust over time as the hose changes. There are also clamps designated as "fuel injection type" which are used in Chrysler vehicles among others.
2234
I purchased Euro clamps at a local bolt and fastener company that is now out of business. Here is the company that sells them.
Au-ve-co (American Vehicle Parts Company)
https://www.auveco.com/eSource/ecom/eSource/items/itemDetail.aspx?&page=&store=&itemNum=16868&siteId=1&bulkexists=1
JeepsAndGuns
04-14-2012, 02:57 AM
Obviously it's just a drawing, but they show a thinner o-ring to boot. I assume you used the "stock" o-ring for that size tubing?
Has anyone found a reasonable source for the fuel proof (Viton, right?) o-rings in reasonable quantities? I visited a place in Seattle that was really knowledgable on o-rings, and had a ton of stock of them, and they made mention at the time that they sold them in a min quantity of 100. They gave me a couple free (which was all I needed) but I've not had need of a vendor since. Would be nice to get the right fuel injector o-rings, not to mention the fuel/power steering o-rings without paying GM's prices. Not that they were ridiculously expensive, but I'm sure they can be had significantly cheaper elsewhere.
I found them at the local advance auto. I was actually looking for the standard O-rings for a power steering line, but I stumbled across these and they were the right size, and they sealed just fine, never did find the power steering o-rings. But they were in the section where they keep their repair lengths of fuel lines and quick connects. The package has a yellow background and says Dorman Quick Disconnect. And its a fuel line o-ring assortment, it had two 5/16 and two 3/8 o-rings. It has the number 800-013 on the package.
kunsan1987
04-17-2012, 10:19 PM
F/I hose clamps Dorman 55172 at napa $4.99
2251
Viton F/I orings napa 730-4912 2-5/16 and 2-3/8
http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx?R=BK_7304912_0006394118
2252
dyeager535
04-17-2012, 10:30 PM
Y'ouch. $2+ each. I'll see what I can come up with locally. :)
dyeager535
04-17-2012, 10:49 PM
Place in Seattle just quoted me .50 to .75 each. Still need to take a couple of old ones in just to compare, but the guy I spoke with was pretty certain he knew which ones I needed.
Anyone happen to have the cross section of the o-rings? Can have various cross sections among the same diameter ring.
If these are the right ones, would anyone be interested? No minimum. For the price I figure I should just start replacing them every time I have something apart that uses them. I've been sneaking by without doing that. :(
No guarantees it will be any time soon, I'm not up there very often.
Are these the same thing? http://www.ebay.com/itm/BLUE-FDA-VITON-O-RINGS-012-QTY-25-3-8-ID-X-1-2-OD-/190557423869?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c5e1b88fd
EagleMark
04-18-2012, 07:26 AM
I just don't have anything apart to check? But if you do ever follow through on this count me in for $20 or $30 worth to buy enough and get down to .50 cent range. Good deal at 1/4 price!
These are fuel line right? I have no need for injector o rings as they are always supplied in rebuild kit and supplied by Mr Injector when you get injectors serviced.
dyeager535
04-18-2012, 05:42 PM
I told them fuel line (and Viton), but the place is an o-ring supplier, not automotive, so that's why they want me to bring samples in to make sure the cross section is right. I know the injector ones are really thick comparatively, so if it was a choice between those two sizes, pretty easy to tell the difference. The power steering uses the same o-rings if I'm not mistaken, so yet another application for them. That ebay link looks even more affordable, but it goes back to knowing the cross section. Maybe someone on thirdgen knows.
I tried measuring some o-rings previously, and found it very difficult to know what the "real" thickness was since the new ones are so soft. I don't know how many variations there are in thickness for a given size, I'd hate to get the wrong ones that were just a few thousandths off.
EagleMark
04-18-2012, 08:23 PM
That ebay link looks even more affordable, but it goes back to knowing the cross section.
Checked their O ring size PDF and it's all american, I beleive the fuel lines on EFI are metric. So if we had correct size they may have them, or SAE equivelent, but then we may be a few thousnds off?
JeepsAndGuns
04-19-2012, 01:56 AM
The power steering uses the same o-rings if I'm not mistaken, so yet another application for them.
Yes, they do. Like mentioned in my above post, I was needing some o-ring for a gm power steering line, and all I could find were the fuel line o-rings, witch were identical, other than being brown and fuel proof.
EagleMark
04-19-2012, 09:35 AM
Found a bunch of sizes for injectors but no fuel line o rings here... I checked the o ring sizes listed and only one was same size as new ones I have in a box from a TBI rebuilt kit for top of injector. Bottom o ring of injector is bigger diameter then I have here, not by much.
http://www.alibaba.com/trade/search?Country=&IndexArea=product_en&fsb=y&SearchText=tbi+fuel
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