Last winters project - 85 IROC Z (From Intro)

[zaut]

I spent the winter building a 383 for my 85 IROC Z. I bought the car new when I graduated from college and had always intended to keep it stock. After getting my doors blown off by a Solstice GXP, I had to do something. So I built the 383 with a donor block from the local junk yard. I think I did well. Here is my parts list. (Did keep the TPI, That’s why I am here now)
trick flow 195 heads,
Edlebrock TPI intake base, SLP runners, 58 mm BBK throttle body, roller cam
with rockers yield (intake /exhaust lift 0.560” lift with 219/225 duration at
0.050”, lobe center 112), compression is 10.2/1, 28.2 # injectors, BBK
adjustable pressure regulator. All induction is polished. Plenum is
opened up to max and intake base was also ported, Edlebrock Shorty headers,
magnaflow cat and 3” cat back exhaust. Rear end is 3.42 posi
with a 700R4 trans.
That’s my baseline. I have been playing with the $F program for awhile now and am at the point of wanting to start scanning. I understand the 870 EMC with a 160 baud transmission rate has limitations with scanning. So I bought a 1227165 EMC and a memcal adapter and the $32 def file. They came in today. The ECM was to come with a PROM, but now I am told I was mislead. So my problem is where to get a mem-cal for my car. The 86 Camaro equipped like mine can use anyone one of five different part numbers according to my GM parts manual. (3236AUM, 8958AMU, 8969ANB,8980ANY or 8993AUM). Does anyone know where to get one? Also I will be looking for tuning advice. I have TunerCat software. There a several tables I don't fully understand. I'll ask those questions latter after I get a prom and can actually use the new ECM.

[EagleMark]

That must be so cool to have that car since new! :happy:

Well when you get that runnin it should be a raped ape compared to stock, nice motor!

But I'm a little lost, what is a $F? And a 870 EMC? I think the EMC you mean ECM... but the three letter BCC you mention AUM, AMU, ANY are they for a CCC carb car ECM? That just won't work with EFI.

So that brings us to a memcal for your 1227165. There seems to be a shortage of Memcals for old thirdgen cars. Give a PM to TunedPerformance as he makes them from other V6 cars and such and can probably get you going there.
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/member.php?80-Tunedperformance (http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/member.php?80-Tunedperformance.org)

We'd surely help you get going and glad to have you here but don't forget about thirdgen.org as they are home to the Camaro and lots of EFI tech there. May be able to find a Memcal too.

[zaut]

Yes, it nice to say I bought the car new, and have all that documentation, sales brochures, etc. I worked for GM (Packard Electric at the time) so have all the original wiring harness prints for it as well. I do have it running but I think it should be more responsive. I have played with some of the basics like idle rpm and injector pulses versus load. I am at the point where I want to monitor the engine while it is running before I start playing with timing and acceleration enrichment. Everything I read says you don't get much data with the 1226870 ECM. That’s why I am going to change the ECM.

Sorry about my typos. You are correct, it is ECM. And the program ID byte is $1F, not $F. Anyhow, I have the GM parts and illustration catalog for the 82 to 91 Camaro. Since the ECM that came with the car is a 1226870 with only 160 baud com, I wanted to upgrade to the ECM for the 86 Camaro. Its part number in the catalog is 1228291. AutoZone and advance auto parts show the ECM I need is a 1227165 for a 86 Camaro. I have also seen the 1227165 p/n in many other post related to the 86 Camaro. In fact, I have a copy of the 86 Camaro service manual connector pin out for the 1227165 ECM. So I am guessing GM made a part number change. I am not sure which ECM p/n is the current p/n. The BCC codes I listed in my first post are what the catalog says I need for the 1228291 ECM. That ECM is listed as the ECM for a 5.0F engine in the catalog. F being the VIN code for the 5.0 TPI engines not a carbureted version. My guess I you have not seen those codes before. So I wonder what BBC code I should be looking for and if I should trust the parts catalog. I see Autozone sells remanufactured chips for $70 (more then I paid for the ECM!), but I need the code to order the correct chip. I did send a message to Tuned Performance. Thanks for that advice.

[EagleMark]

Actually just checking they did have 3 letter BCC codes for EFI, I was not aware of.

Try this, it's not totally finshed but does work with RPO codes so L98 for engine and MD8 for trans and it will spit out a list for you and you can pick from the 1227265 ECM. Whatever one you get is going to need a tune so no real bother.
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/BCCFind/resultT.shtml?BCC=ZZZZ

Look at Moates for chips and adapter to burn your own. http://www.moates.net/

[zaut]

I think I just figured this out a little. i found the BCC find app on here. The P/N I have been referring to as the ECM (1228291) is not the ECM p/n. It is the actual GM part number for the MEMCAL ia need. The BCC's I mentioned previouslly are correct for the GM partnumber and my application. This site is great. There is a lot to find.

[EagleMark]

That engine is still going to need a custom tune. So any memcal for the ECM would be fine.

[1project2many]

At least you're not afraid of a little wiring. :) Is Packard Electric even in business anymore? Or was it folded into Delphi or sold like Delco brand?

Before you get too excited about using the '165 I will say from experience that the MAF sensor on that system will limit the tuning potential of the engine. It's an old story, and there are many, many threads about it on thirdgen. Most guys finally switch to speed density and the 1227730. I tuned a fairly hot '86 Vette w/ 383, afr heads, Lingenfelter ram intake and cam on a '165 and we did ok but the MAF was maxed out by about 4000 rpm at WOT. After that we simply forced the amount of fuel we needed based on WBO2 readings using PE mode which is nothing more than educated guessing. We managed to dip into 12s that way but the year we switched to the 7730 we broke 11's and ended up around 11.5 for a final time. A lot of that was because we could really fine tune the spark and fuel to help the driver keep the rear wheels from breaking free. The other advantage was the car became more consistent. The guess method provided fueling that was close if the weather was similar to the day we tuned, but not so good if temp and humidity were dramatically off. With SD able to map the entire engine range we dialed things in much better. If you want to get started then go ahead and use the '165 but keep in mind you may end up using the 7730 down the road.

[zaut]

Not afraid at all, I know car wiring very well. I fact I worked in the vehicle test group for awhile so I was trained in the correct way to repair wiring. I used to install new products for durability testing on current year vehicles. I have worked in the industry for 28 years. Packard is now Delphi, they go by Delphi Packard Electric Systems. Thanks for the advice. I just won a EBAY auction for the correct memcal for my car with 165 ECM. If I change to the 7730, will that memcal still work? It’s not too late for me to return the ECM and go straight to the Speed density system. If I understand correctly, I replace the MAF with a MAP sensor. Does everything else stay the same? Does the 7730 use the same header connectors as the 870 and 165 ECM's? But before we go too far, isn't the long runners on the TPI system another bottle neck for air flow? I did everything I could to increase air flow, but I have heard I will die out in the 5000+ RPM range anyways. That’s why I chose the CAM I did. I kept the TPI because I want to make it look as stock as possible. I did go with the Edlebrock TPI base and the SLP runners. I opened them up as much I could and polished them. I still think I have flow limitations that you may have surpassed with the Lingenfelter intake. Please let me know if I am correct with my understanding of the TPI limitations.

[1project2many]

When I replied I didn't realize this was in the introductions forum. You should probably start a new thread in the GM EFI forum after this.

FWIW it sounds like you've had an interesting career. I learned wiring repairs from an old telephone lineman. "Make a good mechanical connection with the wire and it will survive by itself for years. Make a bad connection and nothing you do with it will last."

You've done a fair amount of reading and it sounds like you understand the basic problems with the TPI system. Larger displacement engines will have trouble at lower rpm. The best TPI I've seen is the FIRST TPI but it's not cheap by any stretch. Here's a picture of the FIRST runners next to stock TPI runners:
2087

FIRST web site:
http://www.firstfuelinjection.com/

The 165 to 7730 swap isn't too bad but some wires need to be re-purposed. The MAF burnoff relays aren't used, the EGR circuit may be different, and the knock sensor circuitry is simplified because the knock filter is moved onto the memcal. And no, your 165 memcal won't work correctly in the 7730. The 165 has a different number of grounds and power feeds and the 5V reference and return paths for some of the engine sensors are split up differently. The 7730 shares two connectors with the 165 but has a third connector which you will need to obtain. Years ago I made a cheat sheet for this swap but I can't find it on this machine. I'll look around. Maybe it's on my laptop.

[EagleMark]

Moved thread!

[zaut]

You are correct about a good mechanical connection will last. The problem is knowing what a good mechanical connection really is. There is actually a lot of science behind a crimped connection. The width to height ratio of the crimp and the amount of cable core compaction are all critical to a long lasting crimp. Thermal expansion and contraction will cause a crimp to relax over time. Resistance will go up and on a high current circuit it can cause a fire. Unless you crimp to the validated crimp specifications of the terminal for the cable size you are using you don’t know if the crimp is going to last. In the field, the best thing to do is to solder every crimp. Nothing is better than that.
The picture looks a lot like the SLP runners I have. The SLP runners are siamese like the ones you show. I think the SLP runners may actually have a larger cross section then the ones pictured. Are those the ones GM was offering in their performance parts catalog? Or is FIRST TPI an aftermarket setup?
Well since the chip I just bought isn’t compatible, I will move forward with the 165 ECM. I really don’t plan on drag racing the car. Leaving a stop light quicker than the average Joe will make me happy. More than anything I want to get the tune correct. I think getting good real time scan data is my major concern at this time.

[EagleMark]

You are correct about a good mechanical connection will last. The problem is knowing what a good mechanical connection really is. There is actually a lot of science behind a crimped connection. The width to height ratio of the crimp and the amount of cable core compaction are all critical to a long lasting crimp. Thermal expansion and contraction will cause a crimp to relax over time. Resistance will go up and on a high current circuit it can cause a fire. Unless you crimp to the validated crimp specifications of the terminal for the cable size you are using you don’t know if the crimp is going to last. In the field, the best thing to do is to solder every crimp. Nothing is better than that.
I hate crimps! Not for any of the valid scientific data you are mentioning, just to me a crimp connection is a temp fix that is going to fail, not if, when! I'm not refering to any professional type crimp repair or installation tool, just the crap sold to fix wires on cars, yuk!

Not to hijack here but I would like to here what you have to say about wires connected in middle, soldered and wires tinned and soldered in a connector, both shrink wrapped when done.


Well since the chip I just bought isn’t compatible, I will move forward with the 165 ECM. I really don’t plan on drag racing the car. Leaving a stop light quicker than the average Joe will make me happy. More than anything I want to get the tune correct. I think getting good real time scan data is my major concern at this time.Since you have not proceeded yet you may want to reconsider. Your converting to what they are moving up from.

Getting good data is not an issue. Just buy TunerPro.

[zaut]

Splices or joints on the middle of a wire are used throughout the vehicle. Since the early 90's the sonic welded splice is the desirable process. The plant uses less solder which is a hazardous material. That’s out of the question for a repair on the car. Before that we used, the clip and dip process. You would crimp a steel splice clip on the wires then dip the splice in a little flux then a solder pot. The splice clip is only to hold the wires together until soldered. In the contact physics realm, solder is the ideal electrical connection. It is considered to be a zero resistance connection. Clip and dip is still used in certain application like large cable sizes and some OEM’s just don’t like sonic splices. So again solder the splice and you will have a good, long lasting connection. Your basic 50/50 flux core solder is all we used. Lately, they have been using lead free solder in the solder pots, but that is only because of EPA issues. Outside the passenger compartment, splices are sealed with heat shrink tubing with hot melt glue inside. You will get good sealing because as the tube heats up and shrinks, it forces the hot melt into the voids between the cables. Water, especially salt water, is bad for energized circuits. In the passenger compartment, where it is dry, you can use what we called splice tape. It was basically duct tape. But electrical tape is fine. The splice tape gives better abrasion resistance and is harder to get solder spikes or loose strands to poke through than electrical tape.
Tin coated cable is used only on SIR circuits because of the critical nature of that system. Basically you get a better crimp then a bare copper core. But it is still not as good as a soldered crimp. In the high production world, you don’t want to solder crimps, so for critical circuits, they use tin plated cable. In that same arena, they would use gold plated terminals. The terminals are selectively gold plated in the connection interface. You will see that on the terminals plugging into the airbag squib. This is not necessary for any engine control application. Probably the only other exotic connection would be the cable in oxygen sensors. It’s typically stainless because of the temperature. Those connections are welded (laser or resistance) at the sensor and crimped at the pig tail. I would not recommend crimping to that cable. I think you can solder stainless, but I have never done it.

[zaut]

Mark,
As far as terminals soldered in a connector, if you have the correct terminal, you should solder the cable core to the terminal. Normal automotive crimps have two sets of crimp wings. On set is for crimping to the cable core. Solder that crimp. The other wings are the insulation crimp wings. Those give strain relief to the core crimp. You should not crimp the insulation crimp very tight. All you need is three point contact between the insulation and the wings. You can add heat shrink over the whole insulation crimp and core crimp if it will fit in the connector. That will give added stain relief. For sealed connection systems, like everything under hood, you want to make sure the seal is not distorted by the insulation crimp. Those crimp wings should only snugly wrap around the seal. If you are adding a non-OEM connector in a wet area that is not a sealed connector, I would definitely recommend the heat shrink if possible over the crimps. To enhance the connection more, pack the connector with grease to keep moisture out. I am sure you have seen that on older bulkhead connectors. It’s messy but works. We used what we called skin over grease. It was very cheap grease that would get a dry film on the outside over time. Lamp sockets used white lithium grease. Now everything is sealed with silicone rubber weather seals.

[gregs78cam]

It’s typically stainless because of the temperature. Those connections are welded (laser or resistance) at the sensor and crimped at the pig tail. I would not recommend crimping to that cable. I think you can solder stainless, but I have never done it.

I have never had much luck soldering stainless O2 wires. Luckily not all O2 wires are stainless. Posi-Locks work reasonably well also. http://www.posi-lock.com/posilock.html (http://www.posi-lock.com/posilock.html)

I was wondering how long it was going to take them to come up with these. http://www.posi-lock.com/positite.html

[Six_Shooter]

I have never had much luck soldering stainless O2 wires. Luckily not all O2 wires are stainless. Posi-Locks work reasonably well also. http://www.posi-lock.com/posilock.html (http://www.posi-lock.com/posilock.html)

I was wondering how long it was going to take them to come up with these. http://www.posi-lock.com/positite.html

I got a few of those on a car once, one of the worst ideas I've ever seen put into production, next to Scotch Locks, which ARE, without question, the WORST idea for electrical to EVER be produced. I can't count the number of vehicle and component problems I've fixed because somebody used a Scotch lock.

The posi-locks would be good for a temporary repair to get you back home, but that's it.

I was going to suggest the '7730/SD swap as well, and an intake swap, seems most 383s fall on their face pretty early on in the power band when using a TPI style intake. To me they put the TPI on the wrong vehicles, they should have been used on the trucks due to their low end torque production, and limited power band.

Using the '165 ECM though, I would look at $6E code mask, it was the last and AFAIK most advanced code used in the '165, which many $32 and $32B users seem to swap to in the end. It was used in 1989 in the '165 ECM. This also eliminates the need for the cold start injector.

[EagleMark]

They actually look like a good design? Expensive per connection but looks good. But then once you have a human interput instructions who knows how it's going to work or last.

Thanks Zaut for all the very informative information! :thumbsup:

I've never had an issue with twisting 2 wires together and soldering then shrink wrap or tining ends of wire and slipping them in a connector adding heat and some more solder and shrink wrapping. My real concern since you seem to have the knowledge was which would be better or even matter?

For crimping ends I have weatherpak crimp ends and the proper tool so it's always a proper crimp and never try to overcrimp or like somepeople do SQUISH the ends thinking tighter is better. If I can't get the rubber water tight seal I shrink wrap it, still never had an issue.

But man have I had issues with those cheap fix all crimp connectors and SQUISH tools... I wouldn't call them a crimp, just a crush or squish. I have a little set in each vehicle tool box I only use then for emergency temporary fix myself but because I take care of stuff it's usually to help fix someone elses rig. When ever I see one on a car it's the first place I look for problems and usually find it there. I've seen some that are actually dam near cut becuase of the improper crimp, right through the decrotive fancy plastic cover, through the connector and wire just barely hanging together... :mad1: garbage!

Probably 25 years ago I had a full set of crimp connectors with tool from a freind at the phone company and a never ending supply of connectors. When you insert the wires and crimp it would break open a small tube of what I thought was silicone for a perfect water tight seal. Very nice stuff! But when you look to but those kinds of connectors today they are very expensive, so I solder.

[1project2many]

It's amazing to see differences between automakers' harnesses. Old Mercedes wiring is amazing in it's ability to be simple yet complex. While the circuits tend to be super simple and there's an abundance of redundant grounds, the connectors themselves have a lot of engineering behind them. Every pin is soldered to the wire, the insulation is sealed after solder is applied, and the connectors are designed to take up any strain on the wire so the pins don't have to. There's more trouble with solder on the early circuit boards supplied by outside vendors than with the actual harness. Toyota on the other hand does some bizarre stuff with redundant power feeds and relays that seem to be added as afterthoughts. Toyota likes tape, and lots of it. They like crimp connections with no solder, and often use brass crimps instead of steel. But they do a helluva job of sealing the connectors. I don't know if anaerobic bacteria could survive inside a Toyota wire splice. And every wire is wrapped to within inches of it's termination point. The harness holds it's shape so well it can stand on its own after being removed from a vehicle. Cutting a Toyota harness without damaging a wire is an excercise in patience.

The two largest problems I see with on vehicle repairs are caused by lack of support and lack of sealing. Lack of support occurs because a solid connection such as a crimp or solder joint causes motion in the harness to concentrate at the points on either side of the repair. The repair isn't flexible so the wires move more at the intersection. If the motion is excessive or is applied for a long enough period the wires will break. In fact, for many years GM said no crimp or solder repair was acceptable in an ABS harness due to the possibility of this type of failure. But shrink tubing can be used to reduce some of this motion. It stiffens the wires on either side of the repair and acts as a shock absorber or strain relief. Another good method I rarely see used is to tape a strain relief into the harness. Something as simple as a length of nylon tie taped to the wire across the splice can serve as a great strain relief and it will last for years.

Sealing might seem like a no-brainer but my experience repairing even OEM wiring tells me it requires some attention to detail. A crimp needs to be applied with proper tools. Many inexpensive crimpers for barrel or sleeve crimps have no stop and the jaws have sharp edges. This combination will pierce the plastic insulation of the crimp if squeezed too hard. Even if the ends of the crimp are sealed the breach caused by the crimper will allow oxidation and eventual failure. Then there's shrink tubing. Any hole or nick in shrink tubing is a potential entry point for moisture and improperly sized tubing won't shrink tightly against the wire. It's imperative to inspect the shrink tubing after heat's been applied as small damage points will become larger when the tubing shrinks. I also tend to prefer shrink tubing with adhesive. My favorite barrel type crimp connectors have a combination of adhesive and heat shrinkable insulation. Once heat is applied and the crimp insulation adheres to the wire insulation, the bond is so tight you will pull the wire insulation off the wire before you can pull the wire out of the connector. But very few of these products work well when multiple wires are put together in a crimp. The voids where the two wires lay side by side are just too small for adhesive or silicone barriers to fill completely. In that case you need a supplemental sealer. Grease can be a great choice. I used to get "Non-oxidizing Grease" back when I repaired vehicles at the telephone company but it's hard to come by these days. 3M Silicone paste works but it's liable to wash out in a short time and it's expensive. I sometimes get a thick lithium based grease that's designed to protect light sockets for using with an acid brush. Brush it on in quantity. I also use "liquid electrical tape" which is a brushable sealer that hardens in a few minutes. It can take several coats to get a good seal but as long as there's no metal exposed it will last for years. It has little resistance to abrasion however so tape should be applied for protection. Under no circumstances should cheap connectors be used. Some have aluminum barrels and they won't stay crimped no matter how hard you try. Others are thin enough the crimp will relax over time with thermal cycling. I'm not afraid to use steel fuel/brake tubing and properly applied harness tape to crimp and seal a multiple wire connection in a pinch. While it can be tough to get the tubing to crimp, when applied well it will last as long as the wires it's connected to.

One warning about using solder on large cables. Any high current draw or source (like a starter or large alternator) has the potential to heat the repaired area enough to melt the solder. Always apply solder in conjunction with a strong mechanical connection such as a crimped splice. This prevents the wires from coming apart in the event the unexpected occurs. Melted solder on car parts is bad, but a power wire falling against ground and dead shorting can be much worse.

FWIW GM service manual has very good repair procedures in beginning of electrical section.

Did someone ask a question about TPI??? :)

[zaut]

The posilock looks like a good connection system. It is an axial bolt together connection. Bolt type mechanical connections a very reliable because the torque induced compression will not stress relieve over time like a bad crimp. You won't see them as an OEM production part because of cost and slow assembly times. Cut and terminate machines "cutters" they are called make leads at rates up one per second. It's all about low cost, high quality and reliability. The GM service manual is an excellent source for repair instructions. I worked closely with the crimp technology group for years. You would be surprised how precise crimps need to be. For example the normal tolerance for crimp height is +/- 0.05 mm. On smaller cable like 0.26 mm2 its +/- 0.02 mm. Core crimp height is the critical dimension. Core crimp width is fixed by the crimp tool. One terminal can be validated for several cable sizes. Each cable-terminal combination will require specific crimp geometry and therefore tooling. Even if you have the correct crimp tool for the specific terminal, you should solder after crimping, because that tool is most likely for one cable size. You will never have to worry about it again. I have many different crimp tools and I always solder.
Packard builds harness for Mercedes and for Toyota. The same machines are used to cut and terminate for all OEM’s. Obviously Packard will try to sell Packard connection systems to make more money, but in the end, the OEM chooses the components. The biggest thing each wants is to take cost out. I worked for three years on a Toyota – aluminum cable project. I got three Patents out from it. That wiring will not be serviceable. We were scratching our heads on how to do it. But with copper going to $5/lbs and aluminum at $1/lbs, it is going to be used more and more!

[1project2many]

The FIRST manifolds and runners are larger than the SLP or other oversize stock replacements. Engines using near stock FIRST systems easily achieve 400+ hp. Again, it's a nice manifold but not a necessity.

I agree with Six_Shooter regarding the calibration of choice for the '165. If you use that ecm the best starting calibration is ARAP from the '89 model year. Make sure you use a wiring diagram matching the year calibration you choose to use. There are subtle differences between the early and late cars' configurations.

No worries. Even without the larger runners your car will leave the light faster than the average Joe. With the right rear gearing it will pull right up to the shift as well.

[zaut]

What vehicle is the ARAP for? And which mask is that for? I will look at that closly. Do know the Memcal part number I would need? I assume the memcal I just bought won't work with that mask ans BIN.
The car has a 3.42 posi. Even with the poor tune I have, I can't get the power to the ground. I think I will have to buy tires more often.

[1project2many]

http://www.gearhead-efi.com/BCCFind/

Memcal should work. It's been many years since I worked with that ECM.