New to GearHead EFI Looking for a little help with Bin File

[only_1]

I put a fresh engine in my truck then made the mistake of paying someone to tune it. They had it for 2.5 weeks and now it might make stock TBI power.

The computer in the truck is a 16196395 BJLH
Truck is a 1994 Chevrolet Blazer 5.7 TBI with 4L60E

New Engine is a 1997 Chevrolet Vortec 5.7L
Bored 0.020 over.
1.5:1 Long Slot Rockers
Cam Comp 08-304-8 Hydraulic Roller
-114 Lobe Separation
-Advertised 266/276
-210/220 @ 0.050
-Valve Lift 0.50/0.51
-Lobe Lift 0.334/0.342
LS3 Springs
LS7 Lifters
Comp Retainers and Clips
Rocker Screw in Studs
9.5:1 Compression Ratio
Short Headers

454 TBI on top of it.
Currently running 68 lb/hr injectors @13 psi, with 15 PSI Fuel Pressure, Tuner had dropped it to under 11.
I have 454 injectors 81 lb/hr injectors @ 13 psi. I had both sets cleaned and flow checked.
I have an adjustable fuel pressure regulator, and an assortment of springs. So I am happy to change any of these factors if it helps me to get the truck running better.

Thanks in advance for your help!

[only_1]

I don't know if it makes a difference, but I went with Moates APU1, and an AEM AFR gage to output the readings for data logging. I should be able to post my current file after the AutoProm is delivered tomorrow.
It also has an EP381 fuel pump out of a vortec in it, so I should have plenty of pressure and flow for whatever suggestions you may have.

[1project2many]

This is a strong low-end cam although it's likely to be hurt by a stock heated TBI intake. What is your truck running for gears and converter?

[only_1]

The truck has 3.73 rear end gears. Converter is a 2200 stall.
The intake is a heated GMPP intake. Bored to match throttle body, 50mm roughly per bore. I wanted to do this so that I can drive it during the winter. I could switch it to a Edelbrock performer. But even with this intake, it should make more power than it is.

[only_1]

12867

[Fast355]

12867

That is painful! 1 ton 8.75:1 TBI 350 in my 83 G20 Van with 1.6 roller rockers, tri-y headers, 3" single exhaust, edelbrock performer rpm intake, 2" marine TBI unit and adapter put down 200 rwhp and 300 rwtq.

My Express van with basically a 300 hp Marine L31 350 with 2.02/1.60 valves and milled 906 Vortec heads put down 230 rwhp @ 4,400 and 303 rwtq @ 3,400 through a 4L85E and 9.5" 14-bolt despite having weak valve springs and less than optimal spark advance. That was with the tiny GM 196/206 @ 0.050 marine cam and 1.7 rockers. Springs were so weak changing them out for LS6 springs and Comp 787 retainers bumped me to 257 rwhp @ 4,800 and 310 rwtq @ 3,200. I added a flex fuel sensor and tuned it on E85. 272 rwhp @ 4,700 and 325 rwtq @ 2,900. Even with the 1.7 rockers my cam was still shorter duration than yours.

What is the exhaust like after those headers? What about the air filter side of things? What kind of timing advance values are you running. What is the Base timing? It is running really lean in that graph as well.

[Fast355]

The truck has 3.73 rear end gears. Converter is a 2200 stall.
The intake is a heated GMPP intake. Bored to match throttle body, 50mm roughly per bore. I wanted to do this so that I can drive it during the winter. I could switch it to a Edelbrock performer. But even with this intake, it should make more power than it is.

I have seen that intake bored to 2" with a 454 TBI in a 4x4 K1500 on an engine that put down ~250 rwhp. That intake falls on its face around the 250-270 rwhp range even bored but you are by no means close to making that happen.

If your truck is a 2wd with a 700r4 and 7.5" 10-bolt you are more like 18% loss in HP. Torque loss is proportional to RPM and you will lose less % in torque. You might have 20% loss with a mechanical engine fan and unlocked torque converter. I am probably only around 30% loss with my 1-ton driveline.

[Fast355]

I can say one thing for sure, something is definately up with your setup or tune. When the problem is corrected it will put a huge grin on your face. Your current setup is falling on its face faster than a stock TBI engine with headers and not making near the torque.

These graphs were from my old 83 G20 with a GM 1-ton L05 crate engine. First dyno was mostly stock with headers, 2nd dyno had 1.6 roller rockers, Z/28 valve sprongs, intake manifold, and 454 TBI.

[only_1]

That is painful! 1 ton 8.75:1 TBI 350 in my 83 G20 Van with 1.6 roller rockers, tri-y headers, 3" single exhaust, edelbrock performer rpm intake, 2" marine TBI unit and adapter put down 200 rwhp and 300 rwtq.

My Express van with basically a 300 hp Marine L31 350 with 2.02/1.60 valves and milled 906 Vortec heads put down 230 rwhp @ 4,400 and 303 rwtq @ 3,400 through a 4L85E and 9.5" 14-bolt despite having weak valve springs and less than optimal spark advance. That was with the tiny GM 196/206 @ 0.050 marine cam and 1.7 rockers. Springs were so weak changing them out for LS6 springs and Comp 787 retainers bumped me to 257 rwhp @ 4,800 and 310 rwtq @ 3,200. I added a flex fuel sensor and tuned it on E85. 272 rwhp @ 4,700 and 325 rwtq @ 2,900. Even with the 1.7 rockers my cam was still shorter duration than yours.

What is the exhaust like after those headers? What about the air filter side of things? What kind of timing advance values are you running. What is the Base timing? It is running really lean in that graph as well.

After the headers I have a Magnaflow Y Pipe, and Flowmaster catback. All 3" mandrel. I ran an exhaust back pressure gage at the header and its readings are flat. The exhaust isn't limiting me right now at all.
Air filter I have a 3" tall 14" diameter round open element.
I don't know timing as I had paid someone to tune it. He said he set it at 19 degrees across the board. I am hoping he was not serious, though I think he was.
Base timing is still 0.
Yeah it is running lean. The tuner dropped the fuel pressure down to stock tbi. He didn't like the increased fuel pressure it had when I brought it in.

[only_1]

I have seen that intake bored to 2" with a 454 TBI in a 4x4 K1500 on an engine that put down ~250 rwhp. That intake falls on its face around the 250-270 rwhp range even bored but you are by no means close to making that happen.

If your truck is a 2wd with a 700r4 and 7.5" 10-bolt you are more like 18% loss in HP. Torque loss is proportional to RPM and you will lose less % in torque. You might have 20% loss with a mechanical engine fan and unlocked torque converter. I am probably only around 30% loss with my 1-ton driveline.

Yeah, its the light 1/2 ton driveline though it is 4wd, 10 bolt, small drums etc. Mechanical fan, and unlocked converter.

[Fast355]

After the headers I have a Magnaflow Y Pipe, and Flowmaster catback. All 3" mandrel. I ran an exhaust back pressure gage at the header and its readings are flat. The exhaust isn't limiting me right now at all.
Air filter I have a 3" tall 14" diameter round open element.
I don't know timing as I had paid someone to tune it. He said he set it at 19 degrees across the board. I am hoping he was not serious, though I think he was.
Base timing is still 0.
Yeah it is running lean. The tuner dropped the fuel pressure down to stock tbi. He didn't like the increased fuel pressure it had when I brought it in.

I hope that is a joke too.
L31 typically needs 12* from 0-1,200 rpm @ 100 kpa, 16* to 1,600, 24* by 2,400 and 28-32* timing by 3,400 rpm. That cam should idle good around 25* of timing. Limit cruise timing to about 42* and get that 42* by 50 kpa and below and 2,400 rpm and above.

[only_1]

I was just hoping for something like 360 crank/275 rwhp with this setup. I am not expecting it to make 400 whp or anything crazy. Its something I like to drive to work, and occasionally pull a trailer with.
My old engine was just wearing out, lower hot oil pressure, no power; so I got the vortec.

[Fast355]

Yeah, its the light 1/2 ton driveline though it is 4wd, 10 bolt, small drums etc. Mechanical fan, and unlocked converter.

So that adds up to about 22-24% Transfer case adds very little drag in 2wd mode.

[Fast355]

I was just hoping for something like 360 crank/275 rwhp with this setup. I am not expecting it to make 400 whp or anything crazy. Its something I like to drive to work, and occasionally pull a trailer with.
My old engine was just wearing out, lower hot oil pressure, no power; so I got the vortec.


Makes sense. When you said Blazer I had S10 Blazer on the mind. I think you can get near your goal when you get a good tune on it. Seems like the guy tuning it did not understand tuning GM TBI much less the added complexity the Vortec heads add.

I can only believe when you get some fuel to feed the thing and some timing into it, you will wake it up tremendously.

[only_1]

I can say one thing for sure, something is definately up with your setup or tune. When the problem is corrected it will put a huge grin on your face. Your current setup is falling on its face faster than a stock TBI engine with headers and not making near the torque.

These graphs were from my old 83 G20 with a GM 1-ton L05 crate engine. First dyno was mostly stock with headers, 2nd dyno had 1.6 roller rockers, Z/28 valve sprongs, intake manifold, and 454 TBI.

Thank you for confirming I am not just crazy. My tuner was very happy with the results. I told him I was less than impressed.

[Fast355]

Thank you for confirming I am not just crazy. My tuner was very happy with the results. I told him I was less than impressed.

I am not either. I have a freshened up 290K mile 305 from a 96 Express van in a 99 Tahoe that is making 260 rwhp/280 rwtq with a 218/218 @ .050 Lunati flat tappet cam, the crappy stock Vortec intake manifold and fuel system on it. Somehow amazingly it has the stock spider in it and it is still working. Pulls like a freight train from 3,500-5,800.

[1project2many]

He said he set it at 19 degrees across the board.

This sounds very, very wrong. The spark curve should look roughly like the torque curve. 360 tq is within reason imo. The intake is going to show more loss at top end. Are you going to try taking over the tuning yourself?

[Fast355]

This sounds very, very wrong. The spark curve should look roughly like the torque curve. 360 tq is within reason imo. The intake is going to show more loss at top end. Are you going to try taking over the tuning yourself?

Correct. Fairly quick advance rate up to about 24° by 2,400 through peak torque, then it should level off and slightly advance to maximum value of ~28-32° above peak HP. Correctly timed that cam should make peak torque around 3,500 and peak HP around 5K.

[Fast355]

This is what I was using for 91+ octane fuel running a Vortec 350 with a GM LT1 F-car cam, 1.6 rockers, and long tube headers pulling around a 1999 Suburban with 3.73 gears and a GM 4.3 torque converter stalling around 2,800 rpm. I had 6K behind that Suburban more than once and it pulled a trailer on a hot day without knock retard. At the converter flash speed of 2,800 rpm at WOT I was already at 28* timing.

0-80 mph on an uphill on-ramp on a hot summer night.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYdyu501Z4Y

[only_1]

This sounds very, very wrong. The spark curve should look roughly like the torque curve. 360 tq is within reason imo. The intake is going to show more loss at top end. Are you going to try taking over the tuning yourself?

Yeah, I need to get this sorted out. I bought the Autoprom and AFR to do tune and datalogging. I am not sure if I should just start with the current chip and tune from there, or if I should scrap my $600 tune and start from someone else who has a similar setup? I was hoping someone had a similar setup that I could start from.

Either way I will modify from data.

[Fast355]

Yeah, I need to get this sorted out. I bought the Autoprom and AFR to do tune and datalogging. I am not sure if I should just start with the current chip and tune from there, or if I should scrap my $600 tune and start from someone else who has a similar setup? I was hoping someone had a similar setup that I could start from.

Either way I will modify from data.

Start from scratch, IMO. No telling what was modified or messed up. Start with my spark table, remove about 6* from the whole table until you can verify the fueling and knock retard. Then slowly bring in more timing as needed. Multiply your MAP and TPS AE by 1.5 as a starting point to fight lean pops and backfiring. Calculate your injector flow rate and put the value into the constant. Then tune your VEs. Once you get the engine running halfway decent you can play with your transmission shifting and torque converter. I would however set your trans line pressure to equal the Zero MPH line pressure values across the whole MPH table. Zero MPH line pressure is always higher on the TBIs than any other MPH.

[only_1]

I will do as you suggest.
Looking at the fuel injector calculator on WitchHunter's site, it would seem I need around 100 lb/hr of injector output. Do you feel this is about right?
Between all the hard parts I have sitting around, I can get to about any injector rate. The company that tuned my truck put in my 11 psi spring with one of my smaller injectors so they are probably around 62 lb/hr. I have another set that put out 75 lb/hr at 11 psi. I also have a few springs, 13 psi, 14, psi, 18 psi, and an adjustable regulator. The larger injectors with the 18 psi spring puts my rate near 96 lb/hr. I can use my adjustable base to bump up from there if needed.
Funny part is looking at the same calculator on WitchHunter's site given my current injector and pressure it suggests it should make near 230 hp crank. Really not too far off looking at the dyno sheet.

[Ed_p]

Consider yourself fortunate, I just spent 4 grand and have a pile of trash... lesson learned.. there's a reason why OBD1 is dead.

Moates system for sale if you want it. lol complete with g2 thing.

[only_1]

I saw your post. I would have bought that from you. My autoprom just arrived yesterday. Did you ever confirm it was a mechanical problem or tune?
Seems like it was a mechanical assembly problem to bend valves. Nice part is these TBI's pull out pretty quickly if you want to redo it.

[Ed_p]

wish I could.. we just spent the better part of a month carefully installing, painting, cleaning, brakes..yada..

[Kitch]

Everyone's correct you need to see what your spark table has in it.
Looking at you Dyno graph your W.O.T. AFR's are too lean. I'd recommend getting more fuel into it before you starting too much W.O.T. tuning.
Raising your fuel pressure is a quick way to do it but that adds fuel everywhere, assuming you can maintain enough W.O.T. fuel pressure you can effectively add or remove fuel by altering your VE table but you need to base your changes off data logging from test drives in your vehicle.
Logging with a Wideband O2 sensor will give you some good info about your AFR's, even if you can't initially get Wideband data into actual logs you can get a passenger to keep an eye on the gauge as you carefully drive at W.O.T. (that what a Dyno does but without the vehicle moving).

[only_1]

I pulled the chip, and put it in the ZIF socket in my auto prom. I used the flash & burn software and read the chip that was in the truck. I saved that bin file to my pc. I then opened up TunerPro RT and looked at the file. It appears blank. Everything is 0'd out. I must have done something wrong with this hardware/software. Just not sure what yet.

[only_1]

12871

[Fast355]

That is embarassing. Since my Laptop with Tunerpro is at my shop. What does the PE adder table look like?

[only_1]

12872

[Fast355]

That is embarassing. Since my Laptop with Tunerpro is at my shop. What does the PE adder table look like?

Also just have to put this out there, but I feel I am about the only person hat inverts their columns on Tunerpro so they look right with the lower RPM on the bottem.

[only_1]

12873

[only_1]

Yeah, I am new to TunerPro. So, it will take me a couple days to figure it out. I can't tell you how much I appreciate the help!

[Fast355]

Yeah, I am new to TunerPro. So, it will take me a couple days to figure it out. I can't tell you how much I appreciate the help!

No worries. I should have specified. PE spark advance modifier vs RPM not PE Knock Retard.

[only_1]

I think I posted the advance one first. It is set to all 0's.

[Fast355]

I somehow missed that post entirely. My appologies.

First you need to turn up the fuel. Once you get it enough to drink, its time for some timing

I would increase your fuel delivery substantially. I tuned a truck with the same cam you have and iron 217 marine aka 083 TPI heads and had to run the 61# injectors at 20 psi to feed it.

[Kitch]

Hi Fast,
In your spark table screen shot what does the Equivalence Ratio refer to?

[only_1]

I was just wondering the same. Spent some time looking at available parameters I can modify with TunerPro last night. I didn't get through all of them yet. Just too much to calculate/change.

[Fast355]

Hi Fast,
In your spark table screen shot what does the Equivalence Ratio refer to?


Air/Fuel ratio

The PE spark adder in a factory black box Vortec PCM is based off of Air/Fuel ratio and RPM.

Soichiometric /Equuivalence ratio =Commanded Air/Fuel ratio

14.1/1.2 = 11.75:1 and 14.1/1.15 = 12.25:1

[only_1]

As I was going through the tune I modified the timing table as suggested. I do have a question. I updated tune for the 100 lb injector rate. I also updated the displacement value for the engine. I calculated what BPW needs to be with the new flow rate and engine size. I entered the new BPW in the tune in the cold start parameters. I am curious why I need to enter a BPW when I'd think the computer would calculate this based on injector size and displacement?
Is the cold start BPW its own value so that a program can increase fuel at startup?
I think the factory has it set to some value near 134 with 61 lb injectors. My calculated value with 101 lb injectors is closer to 82.

[stew86MCSS396]

Some of the pcms that I’ve poked around in, I’ve noticed that there were redundant items in the scalers. I.e. gms/sec and inj lbs/hr. Well i say redundant being if you open each one press F2 the line address and the bit value were the same, so you’re not wrong in asking of BPW, displacement and injector size.

[only_1]

So I have been messing around with data logging today and trying to get the truck to run better. Each change seems to improve it, but I am still not where I need to be. I am getting a surging. Happens at idle and holding a constant speed. But under throttle it seems to do ok. The surging has crazy swings on the AF Ratio, more toward the lean side. Bouncing between 12 and 18+. BLM is showing they are slightly off like 140 range so each time I have gone out. I have updated tunes with these small changes, but the surge is not improving.
Any thoughts on what I am missing?
Is it just still too lean?

[only_1]

The hunting is bad enough that it triggers acceleration enrichment when idling. The other weird thing is that during logging, it shows that its at stable idle condition True, for all rpm. Why/how is the stable idle condition met at 2400 rpm?

[kevinvinv]

I also have a 94 Blazer... I put a 454 in it a couple years ago- TBI. So just saying hi :) I am enjoying hearing about your progress and learning in the process.

[only_1]

I love the truck. Its a nice old original with a new heart. I just need to get it pumping to the right beat I guess.

[only_1]

Fast,
Do you remember what the spark bias was for this timing table?