Issues with TBI 7747 tune

[srobertsfsj]

Hi Everyone, I am having issues with my first EFI install so I was hoping I could get a little direction. I am new to this so please bare with me, I do pick up stuff fast but I will probably use a lot of incorrect terms. :)

First the specs. Spent the last week installing junkyard TBI install on a 1986 Jeep Grand Wagoneer with a 360cid and auto tranny, HEI with 7pin ign module, 7747 ECM and 5.0L injectors. I was fortunate to have another member of this site help me today. FSJ Guy came by the house to help me with the tune and provided a good starting bin file. I am using TunerPro RT 5.0 with a USB autoprom. The base timing with the bypass wire disconnected was set to 12 deg.

Here are the issue we ran in to.

1. Idle pulses between 600 and 1000 rpms, tried lean and rich settings but no change
2. With bypass wire plugged in the timing is around 60deg at idle. timing shouldn't change at idle, correct?
3. Any acceleration would cause the engine to backfire and die. Timing issue, correct?
4. Engine would die shifting into drive.

My first uneducated thoughts, possibly bad IAC, incorrect 7-pin HEI module wiring and/or wrong injectors for application. Im sure FSJ Guy will also comment with his observations. Thoughts?

Thanks!

Scott R.

[Six_Shooter]

Is that 60 degrees checked with a timing light?

Fix that before looking at ANYTHING else.

With the bypass wire plugged in, you should be between 17 and 25 degrees (depending on what the engine actually wants), at idle. The ECM will command more timing at idle than what base timing is.

I would suspect that the bin file was originally set for 0* base advance, and so your base timing should match that, or whet is set in the bin, otherwise, you will have more timing than actually commanded.

[srobertsfsj]

Hi Six_Shooter. Yes the timing was checked with a timing light both before (12deg) and after(60+ deg) the bypass wire was plugged in. The bin file "Initial Spark Advance" parameter is set to 12 deg (actually 11.95).

[Six_Shooter]

You need to get that advance under control before doing anything else.

[srobertsfsj]

agreed, just not sure why it would be doing that.

I wired the 7-pin module based on this diagram.

http://www.slantsix.org/articles/dibiase_efi/gm-ign-module-schm.jpg

One question I have and maybe it cant be answered here. This diagram does not account for wire B3 which, I believe, is a reference low wire. I wonder if that is the issue. Does anyone know where this wire goes in a 7-pin setup?

[Six_Shooter]

B3 is a ground. It is used to keep the ground reference between the ICM and the ECM the same. It is a Black/Red (black with red stripe) wire.

[dave w]

I see what might be happening? So the distributor being used is the "Large Cap" with the coil in the Cap?

dave w

[srobertsfsj]

Yes it is the coil in cap style

[FSJ Guy]

We were playing around with the timing settings in the bin file. The maximum timing set was around 30 or so. Nowhere near the 60+ degrees we were seeing with the timing bypass connected. I can't figure out why the timing was so advanced.

I'm familiar with the 8 pin ignition module, but it did appear that we had the 7 pin module hooked up correctly.

[FSJ Guy]

Poking around the net shows that the 7 pin module is similar to the 8 pin module. The 8 pin module just has an extra ground wire.

Scott, you might want to compare the wiring for the 7 pin module with the wiring diagram for the 8 pin module in the schematics that I emailed you.

[dave w]

I wired the 7-pin module based on this diagram. http://www.slantsix.org/articles/dibiase_efi/gm-ign-module-schm.jpg


The ECM in the above link is for a Buick V6 MPFI application. I don't have the schematics in front of me at the moment, but I'm thinking the PIN locations for the distributor ignition module are different from a Buick ECM and Chevy TBI ECM?

dave w

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff290/buildabot2002/Buick%20V6%20EFI/1527538-DSCN0934.jpg

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff290/buildabot2002/Buick%20V6%20EFI/1527538-DSCN0935.jpg

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff290/buildabot2002/Buick%20V6%20EFI/1527538-DSCN0932.jpg

[1project2many]

REF_LOW at the distributor should be connected to REF_LOW at the ecm in order to reduce noise. Do not connect to ground.


Pickup coil P and N should be connected properly and pickup coil is rotation specific. Using wrong coil or connecting coil in reverse will result in excess offset as REF pulse and bypass mode spark pulse are generated on zero crossing of falling wave. Long story short, with pulses generated 90 deg apart, wrong coil/connection generates spark up to 45 deg off. You can swap the P and N leads and see if everything is fixed but mark it down somewhere so you're not chasing the same problem if you ever change the pickup coil later.

[EagleMark]

1project2many REF_LOW at the distributor should be connected to REF_LOW at the ecm in order to reduce noise. Do not connect to ground.
Well that's what the large cap HEI for EFI shows.

http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/attachment.php?attachmentid=2080&stc=1&d=1333303268




Six_Shooter B3 is a ground. It is used to keep the ground reference between the ICM and the ECM the same. It is a Black/Red (black with red stripe) wire. Well that's what the newer EFI shows.

http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/attachment.php?attachmentid=2082&stc=1&d=1333303268





So how does that correspond to what this shows? Other then you have an extra black wire red stripe from newer ECM that goes to ground in ECM? So ground it, or ground it to 7 Pin module?

http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/attachment.php?attachmentid=2081&stc=1&d=1333303268

[dave w]

REF_LOW at the distributor should be connected to REF_LOW at the ecm in order to reduce noise. Do not connect to ground.

I agree with this statement. Many of the EFI harness I've worked on, will have the black wire with red stripe grounding (REF_LOW) from an internal connection inside the distributor. In my thinking, this puts the ECM REF_LOW as the same REF_LOW as the distributor. The distributor "should" be getting ground from the block, but I've actually measured a small DC voltage from the distributor housing to the Battery Negative terminal!:yikes:

dave w

[EagleMark]

That's interesting! Wonder if the distributor gasket is causing this?

1. The newer small cap 8 pin has a ground through module by way of mounting bolt to distributor and also a wire to B3 of ECM which shows as ground.
2. The older large cap 7 pin has a ground through module by way of mounting bolt to distributor and also a black red wire to Ref Low which shows 1.01v in ECM but ground in module.

I don't remember doing anything with B3 from newer small cap ECM with large cap HEI. But now I think I would run B3 to distributor for ground and leave other wires they way diagram shows above which is what I used before.

Then see if you still have 60 degrees advance, look at changing wires from pickup coil to EST module like 1project2many suggested. But my experiance with that is it will only change advance from BTDC to ATDC. So you may have a bad module... if your distributor is set to 12 advance wire disconnected and you change pickup coil wires it will be 12 retard... but I don't think I ever did this with large cap HEI 7 pin module, I have done it with duraspark conversion and GM/Hybrid small cap machined to conversion motor distributor when conversion engine turned distributor reverse rotation. So 1project2many seems to know what is going on here with this large cap module.

[srobertsfsj]

REF_LOW at the distributor should be connected to REF_LOW at the ecm in order to reduce noise. Do not connect to ground.


Pickup coil P and N should be connected properly and pickup coil is rotation specific. Using wrong coil or connecting coil in reverse will result in excess offset as REF pulse and bypass mode spark pulse are generated on zero crossing of falling wave. Long story short, with pulses generated 90 deg apart, wrong coil/connection generates spark up to 45 deg off. You can swap the P and N leads and see if everything is fixed but mark it down somewhere so you're not chasing the same problem if you ever change the pickup coil later.

BINGO BINGO BINGO, you nailed it 1project2many. Thanks for the insight.

I reversed the P and N and it solved the problem. Starts right up and idle smooth. backfires on hard rev but I figure I will fix that with the right spark table and fuel adjustments. I think my plugs are about fouled too....

Question, Should I set the base timing to 0* or to the setting recommended in the repair manual? My manual says 12*.

[EagleMark]

Sweet! :thumbsup:

If your motor is stock go with 0 to maybe 5 and also change the intial timing setting. When you plug the timing disconnect wire back in you'll have way more then 0, probably like 15 to 23 ish so you'll be more then stock to begin with and can make the changes in the spark table.

[srobertsfsj]

Thanks to everyone for the great information so far. I to2083ok her for her maiden voyage with some data logging. Definitely lacks on the throttle response. Would be running too rich? Here is the WinALDL text file. I figured out how to upload docs but not insert yet.

Thoughts?

Narrow Latest
RPM \ MAP 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100
400 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
800 0.0 0.0 128.0 135.0 132.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
1200 0.0 124.0 0.0 0.0 143.0 0.0 137.0 0.0 0.0
1600 0.0 124.0 124.0 0.0 0.0 141.0 138.0 0.0 0.0
2000 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 128.0 136.0 129.0 0.0 0.0
2400 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
2800 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
3200 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
3600 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
4000 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
4400 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
4800 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
5200 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
5600 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
6000 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
6400 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0

Narrow Avg
RPM \ MAP 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100
400 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
800 0.0 0.0 127.8 131.5 132.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
1200 0.0 124.3 0.0 0.0 140.5 0.0 135.0 0.0 0.0
1600 0.0 124.0 124.0 0.0 0.0 138.0 133.0 0.0 0.0
2000 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 128.0 132.5 129.0 0.0 0.0
2400 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
2800 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
3200 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
3600 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
4000 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
4400 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
4800 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
5200 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
5600 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
6000 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
6400 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0

Narrow # Sapmles
RPM \ MAP 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100
400 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
800 0 0 5 2 1 0 0 0 0
1200 0 3 0 0 4 0 3 0 0
1600 0 1 1 0 0 2 2 0 0
2000 0 0 0 0 1 2 1 0 0
2400 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
2800 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
3200 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
3600 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
4000 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
4400 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
4800 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
5200 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
5600 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
6000 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
6400 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

Narrow Avg 10
RPM \ MAP 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100
400 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
800 0.0 0.0 127.8 131.5 132.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
1200 0.0 124.3 0.0 0.0 140.5 0.0 135.0 0.0 0.0
1600 0.0 124.0 124.0 0.0 0.0 138.0 133.0 0.0 0.0
2000 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 128.0 132.5 129.0 0.0 0.0
2400 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
2800 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
3200 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
3600 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
4000 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
4400 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
4800 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
5200 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
5600 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
6000 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
6400 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0

Narrow Std. Dev. 10
RPM \ MAP 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100
400 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
800 0.0 0.0 0.4 3.5 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
1200 0.0 0.5 0.0 0.0 6.7 0.0 2.2 0.0 0.0
1600 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 3.0 5.0 0.0 0.0
2000 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 3.5 0.0 0.0 0.0
2400 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
2800 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
3200 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
3600 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
4000 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
4400 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
4800 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
5200 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
5600 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
6000 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
6400 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0

Wide Latest
RPM \ MAP 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100
400 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 132.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
800 0.0 0.0 128.0 128.0 134.0 138.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
1200 0.0 127.0 128.0 128.0 128.0 138.0 137.0 0.0 0.0
1600 0.0 124.0 124.0 125.0 0.0 141.0 139.0 0.0 0.0
2000 0.0 0.0 0.0 126.0 128.0 145.0 144.0 0.0 0.0
2400 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 145.0 147.0 0.0 0.0
2800 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 138.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
3200 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
3600 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
4000 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
4400 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
4800 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
5200 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
5600 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
6000 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
6400 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0

Wide Avg
RPM \ MAP 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100
400 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 132.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
800 0.0 0.0 127.8 132.4 136.9 133.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
1200 0.0 125.0 127.6 127.7 136.2 139.4 135.2 0.0 0.0
1600 0.0 124.0 124.8 125.0 0.0 140.5 136.5 0.0 0.0
2000 0.0 0.0 0.0 126.0 128.0 136.4 133.5 0.0 0.0
2400 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 137.0 133.3 0.0 0.0
2800 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 138.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
3200 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
3600 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
4000 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
4400 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
4800 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
5200 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
5600 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
6000 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
6400 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0

Wide # Samples
RPM \ MAP 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100
400 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0
800 0 0 15 29 7 2 0 0 0
1200 0 12 13 3 11 8 9 0 0
1600 0 5 5 1 0 6 8 0 0
2000 0 0 0 1 1 10 11 0 0
2400 0 0 0 0 0 2 4 0 0
2800 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0
3200 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
3600 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
4000 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
4400 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
4800 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
5200 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
5600 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
6000 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
6400 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

Wide Avg 10
RPM \ MAP 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100
400 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 132.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
800 0.0 0.0 128.0 133.9 136.9 133.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
1200 0.0 124.8 127.9 127.7 137.0 139.4 135.2 0.0 0.0
1600 0.0 124.0 124.8 125.0 0.0 140.5 136.5 0.0 0.0
2000 0.0 0.0 0.0 126.0 128.0 136.4 134.1 0.0 0.0
2400 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 137.0 133.3 0.0 0.0
2800 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 138.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
3200 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
3600 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
4000 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
4400 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
4800 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
5200 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
5600 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
6000 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
6400 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0

Wide Std. Dev. 10
RPM \ MAP 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100
400 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
800 0.0 0.0 0.0 3.5 6.6 5.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
1200 0.0 1.0 0.7 0.5 8.7 5.2 5.3 0.0 0.0
1600 0.0 0.0 0.4 0.0 0.0 5.5 6.2 0.0 0.0
2000 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 5.0 6.4 0.0 0.0
2400 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 8.0 7.9 0.0 0.0
2800 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
3200 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
3600 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
4000 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
4400 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
4800 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
5200 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
5600 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
6000 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
6400 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0

Narrow Correction 10
RPM \ MAP 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100
400 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000
800 1.000 1.000 0.998 1.027 1.031 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000
1200 1.000 0.971 1.000 1.000 1.098 1.000 1.055 1.000 1.000
1600 1.000 0.969 0.969 1.000 1.000 1.078 1.039 1.000 1.000
2000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.035 1.008 1.000 1.000
2400 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000
2800 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000
3200 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000
3600 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000
4000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000
4400 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000
4800 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000
5200 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000
5600 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000
6000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000
6400 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000

Wide Correction 10
RPM \ MAP 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100
400 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.031 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000
800 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.046 1.069 1.039 1.000 1.000 1.000
1200 1.000 0.975 0.999 0.997 1.070 1.089 1.056 1.000 1.000
1600 1.000 0.969 0.975 0.977 1.000 1.098 1.066 1.000 1.000
2000 1.000 1.000 1.000 0.984 1.000 1.066 1.048 1.000 1.000
2400 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.070 1.041 1.000 1.000
2800 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.078 1.000 1.000 1.000
3200 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000
3600 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000
4000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000
4400 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000
4800 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000
5200 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000
5600 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000
6000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000
6400 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000

[EagleMark]

WinALDL is so 2005... gotta get into the 21 century and TunerPro RT!

You know your supposed to be 128 or close right. Well what's it say? Your a little rich low RPM/low MAP and lean at high RPM/high map.

Back to your first post this is probably the 5.0L injectors in your 5.8L motor. That said and 1227747 has 2 VE tables, when added together are over 100 someplaces you just can't add any fuel because it gets truncated to 100 and you should really not go over 95% anyway as injectors can go static.

There's a program called WinALDLtobin that will help get your fueling VE tables in order. But until you get bigger injectors or raise fuel pressure I don't think you'll be able to fix the high RPM/high MAP (low vacuum)

I'll upload WinALDLtobin for you but it's been a long time since I used it so read it. I'll also upload a Injector Sizing spreadsheet to help choose injector size fuel pressure and BPW. This should be your starting point for tuning. If you don't have enough fuel for WOT why tune low RPM?

Then when you move up to TunerPro you can use the other spreadsheet made by Dave W. with your BLM data and VE tables to get them right.

[FSJ Guy]

WinALDLtobin is nice because it re-writes your corrections for you automatically. I've found it good to get "close enough". By then, I'm in the ballpark enough to make manual adjustments for the final tune. You can also choose to use the "wide" or "narrow" correction adjustments. For starters, use the "wide" adjustment.

I remembered that I have some 350 injectors here @ the house. They are working take-outs from when I swapped to the 80 lb 454 injectors. The next time I'm in town I can stick them in your mailbox. I may even have some extra gaskets, too.

[34blazer]

WinALDLtobin is nice because it re-writes your corrections for you automatically. I've found it good to get "close enough". By then, I'm in the ballpark enough to make manual adjustments for the final tune. You can also choose to use the "wide" or "narrow" correction adjustments. For starters, use the "wide" adjustment.

I remembered that I have some 350 injectors here @ the house. They are working take-outs from when I swapped to the 80 lb 454 injectors. The next time I'm in town I can stick them in your mailbox. I may even have some extra gaskets, too.

TP does that for you too. also if you are having backfiring problems on hard acceleration then it could prolly use some more timing. but get the fueling straight first, those injectors are prolly too small for the LA motor. raise fuel pressure or get the larger injectors. since its an LA motor it prolly wont like too much PE timing either due to the open chambers, unless you have a magnum? since its 160 baud you might want to get more samples and take it on a longer cruise to populate the tables better.

[1project2many]

Regarding REF_LOW, circuit does not return to ECM through ground. REF_LOW at ecm should be connected to REF_LOW at distributor to provide complete circuit, REF to REF_LOW, between dizzy and ecm. Connecting to distributor at one end is a way to reduce noise, but does not require path through dizzy->block->body->ecm ground which has large potential to create incorrect reference voltage.


BINGO BINGO BINGO, you nailed it 1project2many. Thanks for the insight.
Sure. No problem. Now how come I managed to miss the right numbers for the huge lottery payout last week? :mad1:
You really want to consider getting the right module and pickup coil in there. If you're using a Chevy then switch to Olds parts as they're for reverse rotation. It's been many years since I played with this but IIRC if you ever end up in limp home mode the Chevy module will decrease spark advance when used with a CCW rotation distributor.


Back to your first post this is probably the 5.0L injectors in your 5.8L motor.
In my younger days I spent a bunch of time trying to make a 5.7 run right on 5.0 injectors. Increased pressure, played with a ton of settings, worked my rear off and finally got it "not too bad." Then switched to correct injectors and near stock tune and there was a night and day difference. Not too bad was really not so good after all. Larger injectors should be installed before fighting with the tune.

If it pops during acceleration then try and figure out how to tell if it's acceleration enrichment or just VE that's off. If VE is right you should be able to slowly increase throttle without popping and without seeing very lean readings on O2. AE will cause greater problems the faster the accelerator is snapped open. A larger intake and larger plenum will require more AE but FWIW the 305 injector on 350 engine project mentioned above never, never seemed to get enough AE even with near stock manifold.

[FSJ Guy]

The AMC 360 distributor is a clockwise rotation. This is the motor that the OP is using.

[1project2many]

Ok. Then maybe he just had pickup coil wires swapped? Or if using junkyard parts, maybe wrong module or coil was already installed? Point is, make sure module, coil, and rotation match.

[PJG1173]

just a suggestion as cheep as you can get a WBO2 setup for now it would be worth it to make sure what your NB is reading is correct.

[srobertsfsj]

Question regarding the AIR Diverter. I live in a strict emissions area and I am required to have the AIR Diverter valve hooked up. The only parameter I see is the "Min Temp for AIR Diverter". All the bins I have looked at, including CA emissions bins, have this setting at 146 Deg C. That doesn't seem right. Is anyone using this setting? What value should this be?

[EagleMark]

That is correct, your truck probably does not even have an air pump, mine does not. It must be incase code built into bin?

[srobertsfsj]

Yes my jeep had a vacuum actuated diverter witha a smog pump and AIR tubes as it was originally an CA jeep. I grabbed a GM diverter from a CA emissions truck from the junkyard and I have it hooked up to the harness. I was just wondering what the temp setting should be on the ECM and if there is anything else I need to do to activate the diverter. 146 deg C doesn't look right and all the CA emissions bins I look at from this site show that same value. If its correct I will leave it alone, just wanted to see if anyone has a working diverter on their setup and what that value is.

[EagleMark]

Well a temp of about 55c will work. But the system is not designed for air pump, where does your air pump, pump air into? If it goes to intake manifold no good to pump air into exhaust and mess up O2 sensor, leave it off and you will pass emmissions because you still have air pump on. If it is into a tube to exhaust before catilitic converter you could turn it on, but off it is still going to pass emmissions without.

The air pump puts air into exhaust stream at intake to further burn exhaust before leaving tailpipe, CCC carb air diverter was pumped to exhaust pipe before cat to help burn exhaust cleaner in cat. The 1227747 TBI system is adjusted for warm up and warmed up to be clean enough not to need this.

Your biggest issue to pass emmissions test in CA is not going to be tailpipe emmssions because the EFI system will be better then a carb or CCC carb. Your issue is going to be a fail because you changed to something that does not have a CARB certifcate...

[dave w]

I think the AIR was pumped into the exhaust manifold.

dave w

[EagleMark]

Hmmm? Must be only running air during closed loop? Mine does not have air to exhaust manifolds from factory... and like he said all bins show max temp for air diverter so it's turned off. What is that engine in/from?

[srobertsfsj]

Yes I have AIR tubes that are attached to each exhaust manifold and have a one way valve. It also has a tube running to the catalytic converter. I will try to post some pics today. I did some tuning this morning and thanks to your great ADX file EagleMark, there is a great dashboard that has the diverter on it. I never saw it switch to open while I was driving. To be honest I really dont care if its functioning as long as I pass emissions. I actually live in Denver but they make it very hard for these 80's jeeps to pass. They also do a very thorough visual inspection which is why I am trying to get the GM electronically controlled AIR working. I guess I could go back to the original vacuum operated diverter. I may just try to run it thru emissions with it not functioning and see what the results are. :)

[EagleMark]

Thanks for the compliments on def files, it's an obsession once I get going on a set! :rockon:

So it's a 5.7L Chevy engine? Or conversion to jeep engine? Most states I have dealt with on engine swap is engine would have to be from same year or newer and pass emissions for that year engine.

I'm just curious what that Chevy engine came out of with an air pump and 1227747 ECM? Like you mentioned all the bins I have ever looked at was maxed out for off... I think the cars had air pumps but they had different ECM and different emissions regulations.

[srobertsfsj]

No engine swap, its an AMC360 stock engine with the TBI on it. I found the GM AIR diverter on a chevy pickup at a local junkyard here in Denver.

[srobertsfsj]

Ok, the tuning is going good so far. I set the diverter temp to the suggested 55deg and I can see it kicking in on hard acceleration so it appears to be working. Feels like I have good power at any load over 1000rpm. The only issue I am dealing with is hesitation on take off and I am not sure if I should be looking at VE or spark advance. I am thinking fuel but not sure if its too much fuel or too little.

[FSJ Guy]

Try adjusting spark advance first.

Then you can adjust accelerator pump functions. There are two. One is delta TPS and the other is delta MAP. Delta TPS kicks in for a very short time as you are changing (thus the delta part!) the throttle position. Delta MAP kicks in for a longer time. I've been told 1-2 seconds. So that would be the one to change if you're having hesitation AFTER you've stomped on the throttle.

But play with your advance first. Watch your fuel table and make sure you're not getting a "dip" or "valley" anywhere. I had that problem on mine when I was running the 747. Turned out it was due to bad timing and not enough delta MAP.

When I adjust the delta MAP and TPS functions, I use the multiply function of TunerPro. That way, the change is proportional, versus simply adding 100 or 200 points to the values. Happy tuning! :D

[EagleMark]

All good info but a lot of that stuff usually doesn't need to be changed and some should not be changed unless it's a built fire breathing monster. If close to stock motor then I leave everything alone until my BLMs are all close to 128. Most all other fueling options are based of fueling VE tables, so if they are not correct well neither will the other parameter which is based off VE. So you fixed AE and runs good but now you have adjusted your main fueling VE and it is off and was fine to begin with.

Problem getting VE correct is easy, but then to get spark correct changes VE, so your in predicament going back and forth. The spark advance for TBI head engines is quite different from old engines, so if you can find factory specs for the converted engine it is a better starting spark table but is a lot of work and only going to fill maybe half the table, then the better fueling will take more spark so it's still just a starting point and a lot of work.

1project2many gave us a tip on this by using a 7.4L spark timing table for starters as these engines were TBI but still old school head design so closer to what an old engine needs and can be easily copied and pasted into 7747 spark tables. It has saved me a lot of time and works well. Now your closer and can move back to getting fueling correct by data logging and making adjustments to VE table from BLM readings, but need to listen for and watch knock sensor if it is reading close to correct in the converted engine.

The 7747 knock sensor and complete knock system is not that great but can be used as a tuning tool. If you have a Chevy chevy TBI timing table then go for a ride and watch knock counts, you will get some here and there, now and then even on a Chevy chevy 350 engine with no mods and no issues. But if you are getting continuoustiuous knock counts in all cells then it is over sensitive for the converted engine. Knock sensor has to be located in water jacket in block preferably center and close to head torqued to 14 foot pounds, if over tightened it will be over sensitive. Since it's a tapered fitting over tightening can actually squeeze the sensor and ruin it. If installed correctly and to sensitive then try a few wraps of Teflon tape, if still to sensitive try a brass elbow. If you test and get it right it's a great tuning tool as it will hear ping long before you hear ping or knock.

So a quick summary would be a spark table closer to your engines needs. Then data logging BLM to adjust VE. When done you'll find lots of intermediate or intermittent issues are gone!

Tips for getting good BLM logged data to adjust VE table.
1. Turn off EGR.
2. Turn off DFCO.
3. Turn off PE
4. Start data log after engine has warmed up and you have driven around a little bit.
5. Find open straight flat and straight or interstate with hills for load. Do same streach of road at 10% TPS from 0 to ? MPH save data log.Then 20% 0 to? MPH save data log 30% from 0 to ? MPH save data log. See the pattern here? Keep going and when your done sit down and do your VE adjustments.

You'll then find you only used half your VE table and there may be some large spikes outside the cells you adjusted. Use your smooth tool on large differences outside your adjusted cells, one cell at a time in TunerPro with smooth tool set to .050. Look at the 3D graph and you'll see it coming togather as a smooth table, finish it off manually to make it smooth and slope in all directions. Then one final data log with adjustments to VE and your done!

The reason to get things somewhat smooth is the VE cell you are in is interpolated to all cells around it. So smoother is easier transition fueling for the ECM.

[srobertsfsj]

Great info, that all makes perfect sense. Hopefully this isnt a stupid question but how do you specifically turn off the EGR, DFCO and PE?

[EagleMark]

Pretty sure I have them all marked in Scalers with a *Read Me* or *Off for BLM* or something with a * this here* in $42-1227747-V4.xdf :thumbsup:

[srobertsfsj]

Thanks to everyone for your help so far! I went thru the emissions testing facility today for the first time with the TBI installed. I was very nervous to say the least since I have failed miserably the last 4 tests with the carb. You would be amazed the amount of emission components they put on these things in the 80's. I must have pulled out a mile of vacuum lines and several CTO's. My first worry was failing the visual inspection but I passed that without any issues. Anyway, here are the numbers.

HC GPM - Limit 4.0000, my reading - 1.2010
CO GPM - Limit 40.000, my reading - 9.2875
CO2 GPM - Limit not listed, my reading - 912.7721
NOx GPM - Limit 6.0000, my reading - 3.5270

All I can say is I hate carbs and I dont plan on going back any time soon, lol
:rockon:

[EagleMark]

Nice! :thumbsup:

And a state that will take cleaner air over stock motor because something is missing or changed!