Need a new engine...questions...

[Rally Smith]

I haven't decided yet but need to soon. Currently have a 95 GMC K1500 stock 350. You should also know that I have full dual exhaust and no cat.
Engine making horrible noise in crank case. Looking at possible rebuild or stock replacement or a newly rebuilt 96 Vortec 350 for ($1900). What kind of tuning hell will I be in if I went with the vortec and will it be worth the trouble? I would like to have some more power under the hood of the truck with decent mileage too. Do I get mine rebuilt for around the same amount as the other engine? I'm sure I'll need a new bin to get it to run decent too, right?

Any help/advice would be great.

Thanks,

Rick

[EagleMark]

Bout time you posted up over here! :thumbsup:

Not sure on all changes needed for the Vortec swap but we do have a 16197427 1996 Vortec TBI export bin here somewhere which has made the vortec head swap to TBI motor a lot easier.

[Rally Smith]

Bout time you posted up over here! :thumbsup:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. :happy:


Not sure on all changes needed for the Vortec swap but we do have a 16197427 1996 Vortec TBI export bin here somewhere which has made the vortec head swap to TBI motor a lot easier.

Well I guess I will wait and see if anyone has some insight on it. I'm hoping soon too.

[Six_Shooter]

Tuning a Vortec swap is like tuning an earlier SBC with better heads/cam.

There is information about stock Vortec tables, it seems that people start with the timing table as a necessity, but that's up to you.

If you go Vortec, just do yourself a favour, buy the Vortec spark plugs from the get go, don't even try to use the earlier SBC spark plugs. Been there.

[dyeager535]

Vortec heads are a lot of work on the hardware side. Press in studs, thin castings, guided rockers, specific intake, specific valve springs, etc.

TBI makes things a bit easier, but for the cost, I'd go with some other aftermarket Vortec replacement castings, or better yet, a "standard" SBC intake port/intake bolt pattern from an aftermarket company that has better ports and chamber than what you have now.

Tuning won't be hell if you've done it already. If you haven't, it will take some time, just depends how much time (and money!) you invest.

[PJG1173]

I did the vortec swap on my s10 although its only a 4.3. like mentioned earlier tuning spark is first as the timing for the tbi heads is about usless on vortecs. I used an eval copy of efilive and downloaded a .tun file for a 00 vortec 4.3 and copied the spark table as a base for my tune. I pitched the vortec intake for a carb intake and bought an adapter for the tbi. my other truck I am going to put a tbi on is a 355 vortec and I'm basically going to do the same thing as my 4.3.

[Rally Smith]

I think that I am going to try and rebuild my engine but get a different set of (non-Vortec) heads and better cam. Anyone have a recommendation on heads/cam/manifold package? I've done some looking but not finding much.

Thanks,

[EagleMark]

Come on? It's a small block Chevy the possibilities are endless. But putting the right combination together is crucial!

I'll have a set of 1995 LT1 iron heads and intake available shortly? The heads flow better then aluminum LT1 heads on Corvette... Still don't know if what I read about the intake being machined for distributor is possible or a theory I read?

EDIT: IIRC your not that far from me? Want a complete LT1 with harness and PCM? Needs rebuilt has a rod knock...

[PJG1173]

I think that I am going to try and rebuild my engine but get a different set of (non-Vortec) heads and better cam. Anyone have a recommendation on heads/cam/manifold package? I've done some looking but not finding much.

Thanks,

Personally I'd talk to an experianced engine builder local to you where you can see the end result of some of thier work. anyone can talk the talk and give advice on a combo for you, but in the end unless you do the research to make sure what someone is suggesting will work together its a gamble. There is plenty of good and bad info out there on the internet about "winning" engine combo's. I like to look at the specs on performance crate engines for the basis of my builds. I also stay away from people posting that cant back up thier builds e.i. "if you do like I did and put a 292 cam and a tornado in your filter on a stock motor you'll get 600 RWHP".

[Rally Smith]

EagleMark, How much?

PJG1173, your right about that! Unfortunately the local engine guy here is a moron. They do fine machine work etc. They take off every TBI on every engine they rebuild and put on a carb. He's not exactly a electronic genius. I'll have him do the machining work on my block but that's about it. (I want to make a engine run stand to tune with) anyway, I'll have some more research to do before I can decide for sure.

Thanks for the replies fellas.

[EagleMark]

Make a fair offer and come and get it. I'm not in parts business and don't have room to store all this stuff.

Just have to get my engine trans from wrecked Roadmaster wagon into Chevy Caprice wagon. These B body wagons are identical. Reflash PCM through ALDL port with WinFlash from TunerCat is simple and I have a nice XDF and ADX for TunerPro. Can take all harness you need with PCM from LT1 Buick and LT1 engine from Chevy complete even through in air filter, MAF tubing main wiring, fuse block etc... complete conversion package. If you want the 4l60E too, if not I have a guy intrested in trans but said it would go as package first.

I'll have engine and trans out, then work on harness or you can help, I have a guest room for the night.

[Rally Smith]

Well, due to funding issues. I think what I'm going to have to do is rebuild this stock engine.
I'm looking at a comp cam XFI Xtreme Fuel Injection, 252XFI HR13: Cam & Kit or a Edelbrock PERFORMER RPM CAMSHAFT #3702.
Debating porting/polishing my heads or is there a better head that I can get for cheap?
Also looking at intake manifolds, any recommendation on those as well?

Thanks,

[PJG1173]

Well, due to funding issues. I think what I'm going to have to do is rebuild this stock engine.
I'm looking at a comp cam XFI Xtreme Fuel Injection, 252XFI HR13: Cam & Kit or a Edelbrock PERFORMER RPM CAMSHAFT #3702.
Debating porting/polishing my heads or is there a better head that I can get for cheap?
Also looking at intake manifolds, any recommendation on those as well?

Thanks,

don't waste your money on those heads they suck even after you port them. I tried, they worked alright but ultimately I switched to vortec heads. it took alot and I mean alot of grinding to get rid of the ramps in the intake bowls (one of the biggest flow restrictions).

[Rally Smith]

don't waste your money on those heads they suck even after you port them. I tried, they worked alright but ultimately I switched to vortec heads. it took alot and I mean alot of grinding to get rid of the ramps in the intake bowls (one of the biggest flow restrictions).

Well I don't want to go the Vortec way, so is there a better option for me other than that?

[dyeager535]

Well I don't want to go the Vortec way, so is there a better option for me other than that?

I didn't spend ANY time searching for them, but I came up with this from summit http://www.summitracing.com/parts/RHS-12410-01/

Check these guys out too: http://www.speedwaymotors.com/

Not sure what happened with RHS, or maybe it's just Summit, but their heads are substantially more expensive than they were a few years back.

Honestly, if I was going to drop some $$, I'd spend it on heads before anything else. You can re-use them, they are the basis for a powerful, efficient motor, and truly rebuilding a set of stock heads to get anywhere near new (new valves, springs, retainers, locks, machining, etc) is going to set you back a few dollars itself.

If Mark has LT1 heads you can get your hands on, that might be a good choice, I know very little about them. I will say that the centerbolt valve covers are excellent for not leaking (I hate the old perimeter designs).

Personal choice, and heads ARE expensive. But the newer heads are just so much better than ANYTHING that came before them, it's a shame to spend money and effort on the old junk.

[Rally Smith]

I didn't spend ANY time searching for them, but I came up with this from summit http://www.summitracing.com/parts/RHS-12410-01/

Check these guys out too: http://www.speedwaymotors.com/

Not sure what happened with RHS, or maybe it's just Summit, but their heads are substantially more expensive than they were a few years back.

Honestly, if I was going to drop some $$, I'd spend it on heads before anything else. You can re-use them, they are the basis for a powerful, efficient motor, and truly rebuilding a set of stock heads to get anywhere near new (new valves, springs, retainers, locks, machining, etc) is going to set you back a few dollars itself.

If Mark has LT1 heads you can get your hands on, that might be a good choice, I know very little about them. I will say that the centerbolt valve covers are excellent for not leaking (I hate the old perimeter designs).

Personal choice, and heads ARE expensive. But the newer heads are just so much better than ANYTHING that came before them, it's a shame to spend money and effort on the old junk.

That's probably a good idea. I will see what Mark wants for them and bag rebuilding mine. I really didn't think that redoing mine would be very cost effective anyway. Thanks for the reply's guys.


Mark how much for the Heads and manifold?

[EagleMark]

Mark how much for the Heads and manifold? $100. more then if you take the whole motor? :innocent2:

I don't know? I got to get my engine and trans out and parts stripped to take hulk to JY, then get other one here to pull engine and get my engine in... was trying to get rid of the entire engine. It's at least 3 weeks out before I could even get heads etc... off if things go well. When are you needing them?

I'm getting some good offers on parts from the Roadmaster but going to have to get a shipping broker, pallet parts and drop off at terminal in Spokane to ship this big stuff. Would rather just sell the wrecked car with bad LT1 motor as a whole. Seems some of these B body wagon parts are rare and expensive so maybe I should keep some... Really don't need this project right now but such is life...

[EagleMark]

Well I found a few old dead links on how to drill the LT1 intake for a distributor then one with pictures. Seems it is not hard but other issues arise if not using LT1 heads. So make sure LT1 heads will bolt on your motor/

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/0803phr_tpi_intake_conversion_ls1/index.html

[Rally Smith]

Well I found a few old dead links on how to drill the LT1 intake for a distributor then one with pictures. Seems it is not hard but other issues arise if not using LT1 heads. So make sure LT1 heads will bolt on your motor/

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/0803phr_tpi_intake_conversion_ls1/index.html

Well, I don't really want to do a lot of or (any) extra work if I don't have to. I didn't realize that those heads would require mods to get to work.
I have been surfing/researching heads that would work that would be better w/o any mods and came up with the L98's. Might see if I can locate any for cheap and use those.

[EagleMark]

So the LT1 heads will not bolt on your motor? The regular heads need work for LT1 intake is all I read...

[Rally Smith]

So the LT1 heads will not bolt on your motor? The regular heads need work for LT1 intake is all I read...

Well I was thinking the distributor hole issue on the manifold was going to be the problem.

[PJG1173]

I know you said you didn't want to mess with vortec's, but they are the best bang for the buck. stock they perform just below the high dollar aftermarket heads. my neighbor has sportsman II heads on his motor comparing the flow ratings his didn't flow much more than my vortecs, at least not $1200 more...

[EagleMark]

Distributor hole looked like an easy chore, one guy made a tin template from a TPI lower plenum and drilled the hole and used a 1/4 inch spacer for distributor without a machine shop. Now if the LT1 head bolts on, that is only issue.

But if Vortec heads are as good as said above then an intake on them would be killer! Vortec heads are only 10 years newer tech then LT1... but the spider technology sucked compared to MPFI or SFI... but that is what worked in the board room for mass production so we got spider injection...

[PJG1173]

woody80z28 just finished up tuning his vortec tbi. might want to ask him about the performance gains he saw from switching to vortecs.

[Rally Smith]

My head is starting to hurt. Here is my goal, better flowing heads with the least amount of work/$, better cam, with engine rebui

Here's the thing guys. I need my truck back up and running soon. I would like some more power out of it and I do have a Autoprom, LM-1 wideband O2 and running TunerPro RT. I have messed with the tune a little bit on my truck, but still not that comfortable making big changes. I basiclly have tuned my VE Table and that's about it. I don't get a lot of time to work on the truck tuning and gas being as expensive as it is and where it's headed doesn't bod well for lots of tuning time in the future. So I think as simple as I can keep this project the better.

[Six_Shooter]

My head is starting to hurt. Here is my goal, better flowing heads with the least amount of work/$, better cam, with engine rebuild.

Then the Vortec heads will be what you're after.

I might be able to convince my grandfather to sell the Vortec 4bbl intake he has hanging on the wall.

[EagleMark]

My head is starting to hurt. Here is my goal, better flowing heads with the least amount of work/$, better cam, with engine rebuild
I think that anyone who has faced a rebuild and wanted to upgrade has been in the same boat with same headache.

Six probably has the easiest and cheapest solution. Getting a set of Vortec heads and rebuilding them instead of yours should be cheap and big bang for buck. Buying the intake to put your TBI on and headers would be only other expense. Your going to rebuild your bottom end and change cam anyway.

You have an AutoProm and wideband and have tuned before so don't underestimate yourself. You can do this and there's plenty of help. Vortec spark table is available, truck will run, just warm it up to temp before going to work and record data to work, adjust VE at lunch time with Daves VE fixer spreadsheet, warm up truck and drive home and do the same. No added expense of gas driving around to tune.

Then if you would like to continue driving a vehicle with petroleom gas, vote Obama out of office so this country can continue to become self suffecient without being held hostage by foreign contries oil while spending all our money being world police. We have all we need, just need to let them do it and technoligy will proceed. If you'd like to see what a true leader could do with this country watch Newt Gingrinch speach at the graduating class collage yesterday. The guy is amazing at american history, inovation and technoligy. I don't think he will win the republican convention but sure hope he is part of the countries future!

If not get a bicycle, because our electric infastructure can not handle electric cars and if everyone went electric we could not afford electric for our homes and there's no other infastucture to distrbute natural gas...

OK I'd better stop and get back to your engine. :rockon:

[PJG1173]

I bought my 4bbl vortec intake off ebay for $120 new. If you go vortec just keep in mind that they cannot handle much more than .450 lift with out changing the valve springs or having the pockets cut. I've read the springs can be swapped for LS7 springs for a mild cam like your talking about. Mine are modified to handle .600 I have a whole whopping $650 in them and that includes buying them. If you look at the GMPP crate motors in summit most the ones that put any kind of decent power out are using vortec heads.

[1project2many]

I'll give another vote for Vortec heads. Match the cam to the gears, use factory roller if possible, and big lift not needed. Use TBI intake from Ebay etcetera, find someone with a mild engine similar build willing to share calibration adn you should be at a good starting point.

Historical notes: Vortec heads are not so much newer than LT1 head. Ports and chambers are extreeeemely close to LT1 iron ports and chambers. Don't tell anyone but Vortec heads were on marine engines in '92. Ever wonder how GM knew so much about making them do good things the moment the '96 truck went into production?? :)

HTH

PS Lately I seem to have an airflow problem with my bicycle. On short runs it develops a rasping wheeze. On long runs, well, it just doesn't seem to make long runs anymore.

[Rally Smith]

I think that anyone who has faced a rebuild and wanted to upgrade has been in the same boat with same headache.

Six probably has the easiest and cheapest solution. Getting a set of Vortec heads and rebuilding them instead of yours should be cheap and big bang for buck. Buying the intake to put your TBI on and headers would be only other expense. :

I'll have to get different headers too?

[Rally Smith]

Here is what I'm thinking.
Heads: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-162112/
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-162111/

Cam:http://www.compperformancegroupstores.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=CC&Product_Code=K08-464-8&Category_Code=RLERCAMXFI

Manifold: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-3704/

Will this setup work for me. I don't need gobs of power fellas. Just a simple rebuild.

I would like to thank all of you again that are taking the time to help me out with this.

[PJG1173]

I'll have to get different headers too?

no any set that is indended for your vehicle of regular port SBC headers will work with vortec.


Here is what I'm thinking.
Heads: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-162112/
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-162111/

Cam:http://www.compperformancegroupstores.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=CC&Product_Code=K08-464-8&Category_Code=RLERCAMXFI

Manifold: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-3704/

Will this setup work for me. I don't need gobs of power fellas. Just a simple rebuild.

I would like to thank all of you again that are taking the time to help me out with this.

those heads are Dport exhaust which require special headers. the cam will not take full advantage of those heads. matter of fact that cam being 1000 - 5000 rpm may have issues with the large runners in that head killing velocity. as for the intake see the notes on the heads "

Notes

The larger intake ports on these heads will not accommodate stock or low rise style intakes.




"

these heads might be a better choice http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-5089/ you would have to check compatability with the intake bolt pattern since that edelbrock intake manifold should have the two center bolts on either side at a differnt angle than the outside ones. these look like they will accept a vortec intake or a regular intake.

[Rally Smith]

Well getting to look at Edelbrock's site they recommend these. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-60859/
Those are direct bolt on's. So that might not be a bad way to go. Pretty inexpensive too.

[EagleMark]

In the end if you need headers don't cheap out there! You'll be sorry. Gasket leaks, spark plug boots melt even if you can get spark plugs in. Headman Elite ceramic coated are so sweet. No spark plug issues. Gaskets never blew out and after years they still look good. Ceramic also keeps the heat in so O2 stays hot and underhood temps stay down.

[Rally Smith]

In the end if you need headers don't cheap out there! You'll be sorry. Gasket leaks, spark plug boots melt even if you can get spark plugs in. Headman Elite ceramic coated are so sweet. No spark plug issues. Gaskets never blew out and after years they still look good. Ceramic also keeps the heat in so O2 stays hot and underhood temps stay down.

Already have headers on it.

[gregs78cam]

Does this engine have the bosses in it for the spider that holds down the factory roller lifter retainers? If so, it is way cheaper to do a retrofit with factory lifters than to use retro lifters. I believe you can also do it 2pc rear main blocks as well Check out this thread. Starts rolling (pun intended) around post 124, and shows good pics in 186.

http://www.nastyz28.com/forum/showthread.php?t=190146&page=9

[Nasty-Z]

Then if you would like to continue driving a vehicle with petroleom gas, vote Obama out of office so this country can continue to become self suffecient without being held hostage by foreign contries oil while spending all our money being world police. We have all we need, just need to let them do it and technoligy will proceed. If you'd like to see what a true leader could do with this country watch Newt Gingrinch speach at the graduating class collage yesterday. The guy is amazing at american history, inovation and technoligy. I don't think he will win the republican convention but sure hope he is part of the countries future!

If not get a bicycle, because our electric infastructure can not handle electric cars and if everyone went electric we could not afford electric for our homes and there's no other infastucture to distrbute natural gas...

I just simply wanted to quote this for truth ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

And away we go back to the topic :)

TOM

[EagleMark]

Well if I had known it was going to be quoted I wooda spel cheked dit...

So has this engine build planning coming along there Rally?

[Rally Smith]

Well if I had known it was going to be quoted I wooda spel cheked dit...

So has this engine build planning coming along there Rally?

Absolutely, I'm all for getting rid of the current Demander and Thief!

Now, the build. Well it's not made a whole lot of headway. Thinking of going with the Edelbrock power package. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-2022/

[EagleMark]

Absolutely, I'm all for getting rid of the current Demander and Thief!
Ouch!

That's not a bad price for all that.

We just did a flat tappet cam in a IH motor and I would run the break in oil as well. After that there's very little oil left on shelf for flat tappet cam engines. I use Amsoil synthetic with extra Zinc and Phosphorous designed for flat tappet cams.

So with a TBI adapter your set! Unless you need roller lifters and roller rockers and a bigger TB? Probably an adjustable regulater at least.

Do you get to pick cam? What specs?

[Rally Smith]

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/power_package/performer_power_packages.shtml

[EagleMark]

That's a fairly mild cam, is that what you want?

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/camshafts/locator.php?part_number=3702&submit=go

I'd jump up to this cam if possible. It's about max for EFI without open loop idle and all the problems of big cams. Do you have to pass emmissions?

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/camshafts/locator.php?part_number=2209&submit=go

[1project2many]

I use Amsoil synthetic with extra Zinc and Phosphorous designed for flat tappet cams.
New oil "Defy" on wal-mart shelves. Very little info on bottle, no API symbols of course, but contains extra Zinc for old engines. Quaker state made. My 22RTE truck with flat tappet cam gets Mobil Delvac 15W40 diesel oil and from time to time I add some Zinc additive. The '57 with flat tappet cam is still using old 30wt oil I bought many moons ago.

"Bobistheoilguy.com" is a great place to go for tech stuff on oil. Prepare to leave with your head spinning and a whole new plan for oil filtration.

[EagleMark]

Oh man, I don't want to know anymore about Fram filters... I've been using Wix premium for years now after pulling apart a Fram filter myself and looking at NON quality...

[Rally Smith]

That's a fairly mild cam, is that what you want?

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/camshafts/locator.php?part_number=3702&submit=go

I'd jump up to this cam if possible. It's about max for EFI without open loop idle and all the problems of big cams. Do you have to pass emmissions?

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/camshafts/locator.php?part_number=2209&submit=go


I don't need anything crazy, but if that would be a better bet then I'd go for it. No I don't have to pass emissions.

[EagleMark]

That's not crazy cam. The other one is darn near stock. RPM range is still idle up and 16 inches of vacuum at idle is an easy tune. I think you would be sorry to do this motor build and not go up to those kind of cam specs. I've tuned that cam and it is not hard. Idles nice and will pull way better than your first choice.

[Rally Smith]

That's not crazy cam. The other one is darn near stock. RPM range is still idle up and 16 inches of vacuum at idle is an easy tune. I think you would be sorry to do this motor build and not go up to those kind of cam specs. I've tuned that cam and it is not hard. Idles nice and will pull way better than your first choice.


Then I will get those heads, the other cam, and the intake manifold. I'm going to be pulling the engine friday night. Let the fun begin!

[Rally Smith]

That's a roller cam... I thought my engine wasn't a roller block?

[gregs78cam]

If it's not a roller block, it should have provisions for it. Reference my other post......

[Rally Smith]

Ok, so here is what I'm thinking...???
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-2089/

Then I will need some rockers by the looks of it and also an adapter plate, right?

[1project2many]

Ok, but you're getting closer to a package that needs to be tuned to use. You'll also need pushrods, lifters, retainers, plate, bolts, and the camshaft retaining ring. Timing chain will have to be roller type as well.

[EagleMark]

Well the price went up and parts went down? The valve size also went down? Not always a bad thing to have some metal left between valves... difference was small.

One thing I did notice was
2089 "Valve Seat Material Ductile iron"
2022 "Valve Seat Material Powdered metal"
So I would research that.

Pictures are deceiving as first one shows more parts but second one says all that stuff is included except the lifters, neither had rockers.

He's all set up to tune with AutoProm and wideband.

[EagleMark]

For future reference. Here's something you'll want to do when building your engine too. You not only need to do this to see if cam is off a couple degrees, you can also add some bottom end power or top end power by changing a couple degrees.
http://www.summitracing.com/expertadvice/slideshow/howtos/slides/How-to-Degree-Your-Camshaft/

[jim_in_dorris]

Another thing to consider is; if he is going to a roller cam, make sure he uses a mellonized distributor gear.

[Rally Smith]

So what's your opinion on these setups. What setup would you use? Another opinion would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

[jim_in_dorris]

actually, if I didn't live in the land of the smog nazi's, I would like a set of the edelbrock etec heads, and the intake, but would probably choose a different cam. See my post about the compcams 8-464-8 cam I am just about set on using. I don't however know how it will tune, but it looks like it should be fairly easy.

[Rally Smith]

O.k. I pulled the engine out and pulled apart. I have the 3 bosses for the roller conversion. They have holes in them already. Is all I have to do is thread them for the spider now and I'm ready to go???

Thanks,

[gregs78cam]

That and make sure you have clearance around the lifter bores for the retainers. I think you should also have ?two? spots on the front of the cam bore for bolts to hold on the cam retainer?

[Rally Smith]

I'll have to double check that in the morning. Cam retainer bolt holes and clearance for lifter retainers.

[dyeager535]

O.k. I pulled the engine out and pulled apart. I have the 3 bosses for the roller conversion. They have holes in them already. Is all I have to do is thread them for the spider now and I'm ready to go???

Thanks,

And get roller lifters. Last I was looking, stock GM roller lifters (which are good pieces AFAIK) are fairly inexpensive. I believe many times you see them in unused condition, people are getting crate motors and yanking out the parts they won't use.

I need to get my hands on some, have a Vortec block in the garage that will eventually make it into my truck. Yay one piece rear main and stock roller lifters!

[PJG1173]

you can get a complete set of lifters, dog bones, and hold down spider from summit racing. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/NAL-12371042/ also I would use a retrofit cam and a trust button insted of a step nose cam. It seems like the cam retainers/thrush plate bolts on differnt from year to year. the plate in my 97 donar motor wouldn't bolt up to my 91 block.

[Rally Smith]

What kind of tbi adapter plate do I need? Is it a front mount or rear mount for that manifold?

Thanks,

[EagleMark]

Lost track, what manifold did you decide on?

[Rally Smith]

Lost track, what manifold did you decide on?

The Top End Kit 89A comes with this manifold, http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-2716/

Also, I'm trying to figure out what Roller Rockers to go with... Do I need self-aligning, shims?

Thanks

[EagleMark]

Center!
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/TRD-2210/

Although I like holly aluminum ones better then the plate steel.

[Rally Smith]

O.k. guys, I just got off of the phone with our local engine "builder". I use this term loosely. He is saying that he doesn't think that this cam http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/camshafts/locator.php?part_number=2209&submit=go, will work with the tbi, computer and map sensor. Also, he has made the comment that Edelbrock is mostly crap. What do you guys think?
I sure would appreciate your input.

[EagleMark]

He is absolutely wrong! The cam is even designated 1987 and newer which is only TBI.

As far as being crap, that is also not true, there are better brands and makers that are specific to cams like Isky instead of making many parts but that is just wrong to make that statement. You can ruin any cam by having to much valve spring or not properly lubing or breaking in, but your getting all the right parts to go along with cam, just add cam assembly lube, correct breakin oil and make sure motor is going to fire up and run at 1500-2000 RPM or whatever they recomend for 20 minutes or whatever they recomend. Pay attention to detail when firing motor up, prime oil pump and rotate motor slowly one full turn, full fuel, prime system, check for fuel leaks, check spark, fire up... If you have an oil leak keep pouring in oil, if you have a water leak keep adding water etc...

For icing on the cake I have tuned that cam in a stock TBI motor with headers and it was simple.

[Rally Smith]

If I die from stressing out about this don't be surprised. I'll make sure my wife posts on here for me so you guys know I passed, slowly and painfully!
For the money, is it worth it in your guys opinion? I'm going to install an external fuel pressure regulator and stainless hoses and proper fittings. That's going to run me about $315.00. The Edelbrock top end kit #2089 (A) http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/power_package/tek_chevy.shtml is $1938.00 and that doesn't account for everything else I'm going to need done. Manifold adapter, Dist. gear, roller rockers, roller lifter spider, cam retainer, pistons and on top of that I still have to get my engine to the machine shop to be rebuilt.

I guess tonight I will try and see if I can find something close to those kit specs in separate parts and different manufacturers to try and save some money. The engine shop guy said that he could get me better heads, that cam with my long block rebuild for $3K and I would still need to get a manifold. I don't know what to do.

My main goal was to get a nice reliable engine with decent performance out of it. This truck is a daily driver when I'm not using my Camaro in the nicer weather. But the truck is a mountain/town/do everything truck. It will most likely be handed down to my daughter in a few years when she starts driving.

I'm probably already WAYYYYY over doing it with the top end kit. Guys, please help reign me in back to sanity's side! I can't sleep because I can't stop thinking of what I should do and how to go about doing it.

Thanks again for all the help and advice.

Rick

[Rally Smith]

Any of you guys see this?
http://www.phoenixengine.com/Chevy-16.html

[dyeager535]

I think the heads are really the stumbling block. There are enough people out there that know which cams work well for what application. Heads are difficult because they had a lot more aspects IMO. You've got valve size, ports, chamber volume, chamber design, etc.

For me the first decision would be heads. Which ones do you want to run? (Just personal preference here but...) I would use the cheapest you can find with fast burn chambers. If complete Vortecs are the cheapest, see how much the AFR's, Worlds, etc. cost that are in the same flow range. *If* you can find new heads that work with your manifold (so the "older" bolt patterns, yours is two vertical center bolts, right?), that will save you from replacing the intake, or dealing with adapters for the TBI. Personally for a truck, I think the intake side flows enough with the stock manifold. Especially with a SBC TBI.

Once you get that picked out, pick your cam. Make sure your chosen heads valve springs are up to the task. Stay away from the roller if your motor isn't already set up for it. The gains just aren't worth it (IMO) if you are just building a low-end (power) motor. It's a truck, it should be a low end motor. :) Now, if you can find a new take out mild roller cam and all the parts from someone, go for it. I put a retrofit cam in my truck, and used a thrust button, that's it. Been in there 10+ years so far.

Put long tube headers on it. SBC's have traditionally suffered on the exhaust side, but Vortecs don't suffer on the intake side, so more efficient exhaust is going to help a large amount.

I'm not convinced you'll need much more than that.

For a truck motor I'm concerned with efficiency and low end power. Vortec heads, modern cam, and good exhaust should wrap that build up.

If these guys think you need more fuel pressure, ok, but if you aren't revving the heck out of that thing, fuel should be more than sufficient as is I think. I'm running stock fuel pump on mine, doesn't seem to ever run lean under hard acceleration (different base, vortec heads, non-stock cam, headers), and my Dad's TBI 454 with Edelbrock intake, fairly mild cam, and headers doesn't seem to be running out of fuel.

Doing mine again, I wouldn't have spent nearly as much money on the roller retrofit cam, I would have purchased stainless headers, and I would have found aftermarket heads with the earlier bolt pattern so I could have re-used the stock base. But choices were a bit more limited when I did it than they are now.

Building an engine anymore is just like building a computer. At some point after getting a general understanding of what different types of a particular component can do, and seeing if any others have comments on what you are considering, you just have to pull the trigger based on what you think works for you, and live with your choices.

[dyeager535]

Any of you guys see this?
http://www.phoenixengine.com/Chevy-16.html

What the heck is a first generation and second generation Vortec head for a SBC? I know the 4.3's were "vortec" long before, and LT1's had similar chambers, but it sounds like they are trying to pass off swirl ports as Vortec, so either they are dishonest or don't have a clue what they are talking about. Neither of which would make me consider them.

And the chrome parts don't help.

[Rally Smith]

And the chrome parts don't help.

I hear that!

[EagleMark]

First don't stress out and die on us! Take your time and enjoy it.

Why spend $315 on a regulater for TBI that no one has needed? Under $100 buys a sweet one for the TBI unit. Modified Regulater is free...

What motor are we talking about your rebuilding? What is the purpose of the vehicle? Daily driver or toy or both? My guess is daily driver is your toy and your going overboard here...

Are you going to assemble the machined parts or having it assembled as well?

The link looked like cool motors at good prices but I know nothing of their reputation.

There is a differance in an Engine Builder and a machinist. Your guy sounds like a machinist with no engine building skills. This is fine if he is a good machinist because you are the engine builder here, he is just doing the machine work. My machinist is fantastic, been using him for 12 years, everything is perfect, but he does not pretend to be an engine builder. He does practice and perfect his machining skills and has old to new equiptment in his shop. He is calm, never in a rush, never stressed, has plenty of time to talk to you but DO NOT interupt him while he is machining!!! It may take him a full day or more to hone the final bore size on an 8 cylinder block to perfect correct size because he lets the cylinder cool after each hone and before each measurement and does other machining inbetween! Now that is a quality skilled machinest only interested in putting out quality and perfect product.

[Rally Smith]

I think my problem is solved! I'm going to check it out tonight after work.
http://montana.craigslist.org/pts/2915403454.html

[dyeager535]

Warranty?

Complete is good, I wouldn't shell out more than $500 for a non-warranty engine. Sorry, I don't trust anyone on Craigslist, been lied to too many times. For that price, I'd seriously consider talking with your local GM dealer and seeing what they can install for you. Friend had a dealership install a crate motor in her K5, when she overfilled it with oil and destroyed it, they replaced it free of charge. I *think* the warranty with their install was something like 3/36K.

The GMPP website lists some outrageous prices, but I think dealers will sell for are less. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/NAL-12530283/ Here's one. Buying a complete engine opens up a whole new can of worms. I believe the ZZ4 is a good motor, but no idea on its suitability for injection.

[Rally Smith]

That will bolt into my 95 truck right?

[PJG1173]

Warranty?

Complete is good, I wouldn't shell out more than $500 for a non-warranty engine. Sorry, I don't trust anyone on Craigslist, been lied to too many times. For that price, I'd seriously consider talking with your local GM dealer and seeing what they can install for you. Friend had a dealership install a crate motor in her K5, when she overfilled it with oil and destroyed it, they replaced it free of charge. I *think* the warranty with their install was something like 3/36K.

The GMPP website lists some outrageous prices, but I think dealers will sell for are less. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/NAL-12530283/ Here's one. Buying a complete engine opens up a whole new can of worms. I believe the ZZ4 is a good motor, but no idea on its suitability for injection.

X2 for that kind of money you could buy a stock crate motor with a warranty. I have inspected several "craigs list" engines that were "rebuilt" to find carbon on the valves and exhaust ports, one guy even agreed to take the intake off where we found the original factory cam (heavy wear on it) which was according to the ad supposed to have been replaced.


That will bolt into my 95 truck right?

Yes, you would still need a conversion intake though.

[EagleMark]

I spent $2500 on parts and machining to rebuild my sons IH engine. That does not include our labor to assemble, assembly lube, gasket sealer, lock tite, etc...

If your going to buy a complete engine then do so from known reputable source with warrenty!

[dyeager535]

I don't believe you'll have any problems bolting any engine in there outside of the LS series. The "basic" small block was used up until 2002 depending on vehicle. Now I say bolt up, I'm talking motor mounts/transmission/exhaust. Intake manifold is going to vary depending on the heads used: "Old" style intake manifold all 12 bolts angled, late style 4 center bolts vertical (yours), and Vortec, completely different intake port design and only 8 intake bolts.

The major differences are the one or two piece rear main seal ('86 was the change year for that?) and I believe the same year for the centerbolt valve covers. You've also got the roller cam issue, but the only difference there is whether the '86+ motor came from a car or truck. A car block will have a roller cam, the trucks didn't get them until 1996 IIRC. But the blocks themselves were set up for the roller cams, just not present in the trucks. Also mechanical fuel pump provisions, but for fuel injection, we don't care.

[PJG1173]

don't forget vortec's don't have the water pump bypass machined into them either, so you'll have to drill a couple holes in the t-stat or rig up a bypass through a heater core line.

[dyeager535]

What's the deal with the bypass? I hope this will help the OP too, but I've got Vortecs and didn't do anything special to them re: cooling. I've got my heater hose plumbed out the front of the intake and into the radiator as it was with the "old style" heads.

[Rally Smith]

Thanks guys.

[PJG1173]

What's the deal with the bypass? I hope this will help the OP too, but I've got Vortecs and didn't do anything special to them re: cooling. I've got my heater hose plumbed out the front of the intake and into the radiator as it was with the "old style" heads.

according to the instructions for my intake you have to plumb an external bypass between the water pump and the intake since the block is not drilled for it. from edelbrock:

SPECIAL NOTE:This intake manifold is primarily intended for use with Vortec heads on pre-Vortec blocks. Standardengine blocks route thermostat bypass water from the block directly to the water pump through the passenger sidewater pump mounting flange. If the manifold is used on a 1996 and later Vortec engine that does not have thein-block bypass passage, you must route a thermostat bypass hose from the water bypass port on the front ofthe manifold to the 5/8” hose nipple on the passenger side of the Vortec water pump. Use a 3/8” pipe to 5/8”hose nipple fitting, and a 7” length of 5/8” hose to accomplish this. If your engine block has the thermostat bypasspassage, use the 3/8” NPT plug supplied in the kit to plug the bypass port in the front of the intake manifold.

[dyeager535]

Got it. So isn't a problem in *my* case because my block is older.

I assume you could accomplish what they are suggesting by connecting the heater hose to the intake manifold nipple, as long as there is no shutoff valve on the heater line. For the OP, not sure if the later trucks such as his had a shutoff valve or not.

[PJG1173]

yeah, both my trucks have 97+ blocks which don't have the bypass. after doing some searching on the internet people were saying just drilling a couple holes in the tstat would suffice. I haven't had any overheating issues yet, and the bypass port in the aftermarket intakes makes a good spot for the CTS...

[Rally Smith]

With some of your advice from above. For the $2K I can get this with warranty! http://www.jegs.com/i/GM+Performance/809/12530282/10002/-1

[dyeager535]

I'm guessing that cam is pretty mild, but again, the mild cams are usually good "under the curve" where a truck needs it.

I would call your local dealer, perhaps that could save you on shipping? Shipping on that actually seems pretty reasonable though. I'm thinking maybe they'd be more willing to do the warranty work (if they have a choice) if you had bought it from them.

Unfortunately MY old local dealer was unwilling to even match other dealers prices, so I never did business with them. Always called for quotes, but they never offered me anything other than MSRP.

[PJG1173]

you should be able to get that through any GM dealership too. might be a better price and free shipping when all is said and done.

[Rally Smith]

Well guys, reality is a real BEotch. I'm pretty much having to go this route. http://www.jegs.com/i/GM-Performance/809/12568758/10001/-1 after some soul searching and realizing that this will be going to my kids to drive in a few years, not worth dumping too much money into it. I'll still mess around tuning the afr and spark.

The manifold I was thinking of getting doesn't have a EGR provision. If I turn off my EGR, will that have any effect on my performance in any way?
I was wondering about taking the heads off and porting and polishing the exhaust ports on them before installing. What do you guys think of that idea?

Guys, you are great! Thanks for helping me through this.

Rick

[PJG1173]

Well guys, reality is a real BEotch. I'm pretty much having to go this route. http://www.jegs.com/i/GM-Performance/809/12568758/10001/-1 after some soul searching and realizing that this will be going to my kids to drive in a few years, not worth dumping too much money into it. I'll still mess around tuning the afr and spark.

The manifold I was thinking of getting doesn't have a EGR provision. If I turn off my EGR, will that have any effect on my performance in any way?
I was wondering about taking the heads off and porting and polishing the exhaust ports on them before installing. What do you guys think of that idea?

Guys, you are great! Thanks for helping me through this.

Rick

I doubt you'll see any performance change with tuning out the egr on that motor. as far as doing port work on that with that small of a cam... throwing a hotdog down a hallway comes to mind...

[Rally Smith]

I doubt you'll see any performance change with tuning out the egr on that motor. as far as doing port work on that with that small of a cam... throwing a hotdog down a hallway comes to mind...

Now THAT's Funny!

[Rally Smith]

I'm still laughing at the "Hotdog down a hallway comment".

I was debating going this way http://www.jegs.com/i/GM-Performance/809/12499529/10001/-1 but I don't think it has all of the predrilled and tapped holes for my mounting brackets in the front.

[dyeager535]

Pretty honest description of the motor in that link, I'm surprised! But thats good.

You can read the discussions on the thirdgen.org diy-prom forum if you want to listen to the back and forth on EGR. I've turned it off and not seen any change in economy to denote that it does anything one way or the other, which is IMO the ultimate test if you aren't measuring the exhaust gas pollutants. :)

I don't think I'd mess with a crate motor one iota. It probably voids whatever warranty they are offering if you read closely. If you want performance without breaking into the engine, go with headers. I'm a Hedman fan, if you want to shell out good money, they probably sell stainless headers for that application, but the elite series seem to be pretty good, although I'm not sold on coatings at all, mine hasn't lasted as I expected, even though I did overheat them at one point. When these rust out (or before, if I think they won't keep making them) I'll go with stainless.

[Rally Smith]

I've got headers and true dual exhaust, 2 1/2" all the way back and an open element K&N.

[PJG1173]

I wouldn't mind one of these for my truck http://www.summitracing.com/search/Product-Line/BluePrint-Engines-Pro-Series-Chevy-632-C-I-D-Base-Crate-Engines/?keyword=632&autoview=SKU

[EagleMark]

:laugh: Yeah that would do it! I was trying to figure out the calibration for how much fuel it would need, when I got about half what was needed I realized it would be less then 1 MPG with enough fuel to supply engine... :laugh:

[Rally Smith]

I wouldn't mind one of these for my truck http://www.summitracing.com/search/Product-Line/BluePrint-Engines-Pro-Series-Chevy-632-C-I-D-Base-Crate-Engines/?keyword=632&autoview=SKU

THAT'S PERFECT! I don't know what I was thinking. As long as I can run the 87 octane on it, I'm in!

[Rally Smith]

I would like to get this engine but when I look at the passenger side head there is a mounting hole missing for my a/c bracket. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/NAL-12499529/?rtype=10
there is a spot to drill and tap it, but I don't know that that is a very good idea. That's the only thing that is keeping me from pulling the trigger on it. How difficult would it be to drill a 3/4" deep hole into the head?

[Rally Smith]

Any idea why the manufacturer would say that this engine is not intended to be used with EFI? http://www.gmpartsdirect.com/results.cfm?singlepart=1&partnumber=12499529

[EagleMark]

Any idea why the manufacturer would say that this engine is not intended to be used with EFI? http://www.gmpartsdirect.com/results.cfm?singlepart=1&partnumber=12499529
1. The heads have the conventional 12 bolt intake manifold attaching design used from 1955 through late 1980?
2. 326 lb-ft of torque @ 3750 RPM
3. Duration @ .050" (222°Int/222° Exh)
4. That engine sucks compared to next one up with more HP and lower tourqe RPM.

As a rule of thumb EFI cams can be tuned with Flat Tappet Duration @ .050" (214°Int/224° Exh) little less on engines smaller then 350ci and a little more on engines more then 350ci

Yes bigger cams can be tuned it just a lot more work.

[PJG1173]

id stay away from anything with a 2 piece rear seal. stick with motors intended to be used in 86 or newer vehicles so your accessories, flywheel, etc will fit.

[EagleMark]

I would like to get this engine but when I look at the passenger side head there is a mounting hole missing for my a/c bracket. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/NAL-12499529/?rtype=10
there is a spot to drill and tap it, but I don't know that that is a very good idea. That's the only thing that is keeping me from pulling the trigger on it. How difficult would it be to drill a 3/4" deep hole into the head?If your just going to get a stock engine rebuild why don't you look locally for engine rebuilders or an Auto Parts store? Or just pick one that will bolt into your truck from all these online stores? Or call Spaldings Auto Wreckers in Spokane and get a used engine with known milage and warrenty from wrecked truck, they deliver to Montana. I have a freind that works there and know that their reputation is excellent, they do not cut corners on selling engines with warranties, if it does not run or has an issue it is parted. Buy a complete motor and drop it in, poof your done and have an engine leftover to build for a toy.

[Rally Smith]

Well guys, here's what I ended up getting. http://www.jegs.com/i/GM+Performance/809/12520270/10002/-1 Pathetic, I know. But just to make sure I get the EGR turned off correctly. I want to double check the procedure. Do all I need to do is turn the EGR off under the Flags area? If not, where else? Also will I have any issues with the EGR solenoid not plugged in? On the TBI do I just put a plug over the vac stems?

Thanks

[dyeager535]

Well guys, here's what I ended up getting. http://www.jegs.com/i/GM+Performance/809/12520270/10002/-1 Pathetic, I know. But just to make sure I get the EGR turned off correctly. I want to double check the procedure. Do all I need to do is turn the EGR off under the Flags area? If not, where else? Also will I have any issues with the EGR solenoid not plugged in? On the TBI do I just put a plug over the vac stems?

Thanks

Going with a known product like a GM crate motor, you really can't go wrong. Yes, it's not a bundle of horsepower, but if you get ~100,000 trouble free miles out of the thing, that's pretty valuable.

Don't know about everyone else here, but any modifications I have done to my motor have resulted/created a lot of extra work and expense...replacing with a like motor would have made my life easier. Not unhappy about the choices I've made (for the most part, but hindsight is always 20/20) but I do realize I've made a lot of headaches for myself.

So if I were you, I wouldn't feel like I made a bad choice buying a "stock" crate motor.

Never been a fan of those vacuum plugs, I like to take the hose nipple out and tap it for a set screw.

Most bin's I've dealt with I believe there are multiple ways to disable EGR. I'd do an item find (if TP4 or 5) and anything that related to EGR enable (temp, TPS, speed, etc.) I would set the enable values outside of anywhere the engine would ever be. I believe to verify you "killed" EGR, you'd just drive the vehicle while datalogging, and make sure that the EGR duty cycle remains 0 all the time.

[jameslleary]

Good choice, but you are aware you got the 3/4 ton engine, right? Rated at 190hp, but the torque is the same. Keep the egr since you are going with this engine, no reason to shut it off, or block it off, and you wont gain anything, but maybe some detonation. I may grab this engine for my Suburban once i get back to work and save some money.
install, and enjoy!

PS-We want video of the first start up!

[jameslleary]

1. The heads have the conventional 12 bolt intake manifold attaching design used from 1955 through late 1980?
2. 326 lb-ft of torque @ 3750 RPM
3. Duration @ .050" (222°Int/222° Exh)
4. That engine sucks compared to next one up with more HP and lower tourqe RPM.

As a rule of thumb EFI cams can be tuned with Flat Tappet Duration @ .050" (214°Int/224° Exh) little less on engines smaller then 350ci and a little more on engines more then 350ci

Yes bigger cams can be tuned it just a lot more work.

Those are the same heads they used up until 86. I had those heads on my GM Goodwrench replacement, 1 piece rear main. The cam had an LSA of 109* i think, and surprisingly enough, worked good when I installed TPI. Those heads will accomodate all accsessories, looks like the water pump outlet on the passenger side may be hiding the other bolt hole.

But, with that 2 piece main block, you would need a different flywheel, and harmonic balancer as well.

[Rally Smith]

I got a summit intake http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-226016/ and it doesn't have provisions for the EGR. Yup, 3/4 ton version. I'll see what I can do with start up video.