decisions, decisions, decisions....

[PJG1173]

Ok starting to gather parts for my next EFI project. currently I have a vortec 350 in my toyota bored .030, GMPP vortec heads, 9.8 compression, vortec rpm airgap intake, holley 650dp carb, and a comp cams extream energy 4x4 280hr. the speed shop that built it said it should be capable of pushing 380 - 400 HP. so far I've collected up a 454 TB with 85# injectors, a 16168625, holley BB TBI to squarebore adapter, and a pile of wires. I also have the original vortec intake with factory spider assembly and most of the wiring less pcm.

So my questions are:

which route would be better?
can the 8625 run that spider?
what would the pro's and con's be?
would one make more power than the other?
should I look at a tpi setup with a vortec base?

[gregs78cam]

Well that cam is recommended to 5800rpm, a TPI set up will never get you there while producing 400hp, it just can't flow enough. I don't know enough about the factory spider setup to comment on that. Or go the easy route and put a 4bbl intake and adapter on it. Up to 5800rpm I don't think you will be giving anything up.

[EagleMark]

I do beleive that PCM will run CPI becaue the 427 does.

But don't beleive there is anyway to increase fuel in the spider to match engine, none that I have ever seen?

Ditch the BB adapter and get a real one if your going to run a carb intake.

TPI will run out of air before you run out of cam.

So that leaves finding an intake to match those heads and the RPM range of that cam and going with the BB TBI or MPFI.

IMO...

[93V8S10]

The 8625 will run the spider.

[Six_Shooter]

So is the spider basically an MPFI, or SFI set-up, electrically?

[PJG1173]

I do beleive that PCM will run CPI becaue the 427 does.

But don't beleive there is anyway to increase fuel in the spider to match engine, none that I have ever seen?

Ditch the BB adapter and get a real one if your going to run a carb intake.

TPI will run out of air before you run out of cam.

So that leaves finding an intake to match those heads and the RPM range of that cam and going with the BB TBI or MPFI.

IMO...

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PFS-52028/ this is the intake I already have on the motor. doing some reading it looks like I'd need somewhere around 80 psi to use the spider, but IDK how I could get it that high. I just don't know if the juice is worth the squeeze going with the factory vortec intake.

[PJG1173]

So is the spider basically an MPFI, or SFI set-up, electrically?
It came off a 97 vortec 350 i would assume its sfi. there are 16 pins on the elecrical connection.

[EagleMark]

So is the spider basically an MPFI, or SFI set-up, electrically?


It came off a 97 vortec 350 i would assume its sfi. there are 16 pins on the elecrical connection.

It's kinda like a big POS master control valve with popet injectors on each cylinder that will not open till they reach 40 PSI. They are prone to clog, prone to failure and prone to no way to upgrade... I take that back I remember a company that installed injectors on the ends with a new POS controller so it is MPFI without poppet valves with no way to tune but a major improvement on a stock engine.... just forget it and do anything else.

The intake you have matches RPM range for your cam if I looked them up properly, so see what an aluminum plate adapter would fit the BB bores in intake to clear the big throttle blades without maching intake and your ready to start a BB TBI conversion.

[PJG1173]

thanks that was the input I was looking for. I was kind of getting the impression that there was a reason I couldn't find anyone using this intake and injector assy on a modded motor.

[gregs78cam]

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PFS-52028/ this is the intake I already have on the motor.

HHMMM. Looks just like my AirGap only $120 less than I spent 9 years ago. Funny how prices drop after the 'cool' factor goes away. Why not put bungs in that manifold and go PFI. I've thought about doing it with mine.

[1project2many]

Clarifications:
1) 80 psi not acceptable with spider injector
2) Vortec V8 spider injector not like 92-95 Vortec V6 spider injector. 8 individual control valves, not one master valve.
3) Vortec intake does not easily lend itself to standard injectors.
4) Different OEM injector available for Vortec manifold with hoses runing out to 8 tiny MPFI injectors at end. May work with 80 psi. Pacific Performance forum was doing lots of Vortec related stuff a few years ago.

5) Here's a quick thread that will bring you up to speed on some Vortec stuff including a common solution for more power: http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/2-383-tpis-need-advice-208667.html

Marine world is a common place to find manifolds. Also consider having injector bungs welded into current carby manifold. Prices are often very reasonable. You'll need to have rails made up as well but still possibly cheaper than buying new Marine manifold. Another solution, though not cheap, is here:http://www.firstfuelinjection.com/products.htm You might be able to use the base and get creative/lucky doing craigslist and Ebay searches for the rest of the system. There's also this manifold:
2056
Edelbrock #7138. About $450 if you look around. Still requires TB, injectors, and fuel rails.

Here's a decent price on the lower half, injectors, and rails of a really great manifold:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mercruiser-350-Magnum-Intake-Manifold-Fuel-Injector-/300572835992?hash=item45fb898098&item=300572835992&pt=Boat_Parts_Accessories_Gear&vxp=mtr
I have used these manifolds and they'll easily support 400 hp. Add a homemade plenum and TB and you're good to go. Everything is stainless, brass, or aluminum so no worries about corrosion. It's this manifold without the upper half or TB:
2057

HTH

[EagleMark]

That is one sweet looking marine setup but man pricey.

I have read about using an LT1 intake and maching a hole for regular distributor, but don't know if that is true or possible? If it were there are a lot of LT1 intakes around way cheaper...

[EagleMark]

Just read the link at hotrodders from 1project2many and man the marine intake is sweet compared to truck! :happy:

What I did find interesting is the CA mod to vortec trucks by replacing the spider and 8 actual injecters looks way better then poppet valves, but can you change size of those injectors or fuel pressure and tune it?

Real injector conversion over poppet valves...
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/attachment.php?attachmentid=2059&stc=1&d=1332849918





Stock poppet valves...
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/attachment.php?attachmentid=2058&stc=1&d=1332849918

[1project2many]

Should be able to increase pressure. I may have found specs once showing max pressure is fairly low, can't remember that at this time. I'd have to use OEM part no to cross over to Delphi or others to retrace steps or search through pacific performance forum as I might have posted answer there.

[PJG1173]

from doing additional research making the stock intake work would cost as much as going with a marine intake, which by the way I already looked at and determined it was out of my price range at this time and possibly for quite some time. I think I'm going to have to work my way up to MPFI and stay on the road to TBI for now. I have though about sending my existing intake out to get modified but I haven't done any research to get price estimates on what it costs. is MPFI really needed? would I see that big of a difference? is the difference worth the additional cost?

[PJG1173]

HHMMM. Looks just like my AirGap only $120 less than I spent 9 years ago. Funny how prices drop after the 'cool' factor goes away. Why not put bungs in that manifold and go PFI. I've thought about doing it with mine.

nope the edelbrock is still stupid expensive. this is an off brand...

[dyeager535]

nope the edelbrock is still stupid expensive. this is an off brand...

I went Vortec with my TPI setup, and the Vortec stuff is expensive...you already have your heads, had I known the hassle before I got mine, I would have gone with the conventional intake bolt/head pattern, but with better ports/chambers (AFR, etc) to keep the injection options open. Obviously TPI isn't much of an option for you in any case.

I'm going to fuel inject the Olds 403 in my car, but unless the cost of fuel rails have come WAY down, it was so much more expensive that the port injection benefits over TBI weren't enough to justify the cost. 454 throttle body on a Quadrajet intake it is.

[1project2many]

I'm going to fuel inject the Olds 403 in my car, but unless the cost of fuel rails have come WAY down, it was so much more expensive that the port injection benefits over TBI weren't enough to justify the cost. 454 throttle body (http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=throttle+body) on a Quadrajet intake it is.
'76 Olds injection manifold??

[dyeager535]

If I could find a picture of one with the air cleaner off, I'd check it out. I vaguely recall looking for info on it years back. I suspect the injectors used aren't "standard", or at least readily available today.

That's another large investment not required with the complete 454 TBI's.

Not saying I love TBI, but for ease of application/cost, it's tops for EFI on a motor that originally had a Quadrajet.

[1project2many]

is MPFI really needed? would I see that big of a difference? is the difference worth the additional cost?
It's easier to make 400+ hp with the larger TB of the MPFI intake. And it can be easier to tune if you're using the engine in more extreme conditions. But if finding the right intake for the right price is an issue, go with the TBI and don't look back.

If you find an off brand carby intake or get one cheap, it might work out to build a PFI intake over time. I actually bought a special bit from MSD for opening an intake for injectors so I didn't have to pay machine shop prices.

[1project2many]

If I could find a picture of one with the air cleaner off, I'd check it out. I vaguely recall looking for info on it years back. I suspect the injectors used aren't "standard", or at least readily available today.

Funny how things get learned then lost. Bob Valentine used the '76 Olds intake to inject a '71 Cutlass ragtop w/403 back in the '90s. The injectors can be replaced with common injectors with a little work. Here ya go:
http://www.grimers.com/vehicles/olds/403efi/

[EagleMark]

Found this picture of a CAI on a vortec and looks low enough for JeepsandGuns...

[PJG1173]

It's easier to make 400+ hp with the larger TB of the MPFI intake. And it can be easier to tune if you're using the engine in more extreme conditions. But if finding the right intake for the right price is an issue, go with the TBI and don't look back.

If you find an off brand carby intake or get one cheap, it might work out to build a PFI intake over time. I actually bought a special bit from MSD for opening an intake for injectors so I didn't have to pay machine shop prices.

This is the route I will be going. I'm sure I'll come across another carbed vortec intake to experiment with in the future. I'll keep the stock vortec TB for when the time comes. do you by chance have a part number for that tool? just so happens my current intake came with material cast in the runners so they can be drilled and tapped for NOS.

[EagleMark]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RMR-064-14mm-Bosch-Style-Injector-Port-Tool-/260700473724?pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools&hash=item3cb2f5897c&vxp=mtr

Although a machine shop may be able to do it for this price... don't forget they all have to be perfectly straight and the fuel rails have to be perfectly straight or you ruined everything and have a fuel leak...

EDIT: Give Marlo a call and see if he is still doing them.

Trueline
2244 W. Lundy Blvd.
Post Falls, Idaho
83854

Ph# 877-777-5343
208-755-3876

Attention Marlo

[1project2many]

MSD# 2160. Not cheap but if you plan to do more than one manifold probably worth it. Some guys use 17/32" bit. Correct size IIRC is 14mm.

[dyeager535]

Funny how things get learned then lost. Bob Valentine used the '76 Olds intake to inject a '71 Cutlass ragtop w/403 back in the '90s. The injectors can be replaced with common injectors with a little work. Here ya go:<BR><A href="http://www.grimers.com/vehicles/olds/403efi/" target=_blank>http://www.grimers.com/vehicles/olds/403efi/</A><BR><BR>

That's what I get for dealing with Oldsmobile. Stick with Chevy and life is easy. :)

So the info should be on diy-efi. Noticed yesterday it was down (again). I hope someone has got everything there archived or something. There is a lot of data there, such as info on the above links topic, apparently.

[gregs78cam]

If I had my Mill wired up and running, it wouldn't be too hard.
1. Set up manifold on mill, and bore 1" hole through runner at injector location.
2. Weld in 1" round stock for bung.
3. Mill all bungs on each side to same height.
4. Drill injector bungs with the RMR tool Mark listed.
5. Clean up inside of port.

That is how I would do it.

[EagleMark]

I need a freind with a mill wired up an running... :innocent2:

[1project2many]

Someone has converted the archives into HTML and many of the links are wrong. I'll try to figure out the correct link. I've seen Bob's car and I remember some of the things he went through during the tuning stages. It was a truly great project considering the amount of cash and effort invested and the performance and longevity it returned. I believe he still has the car, actually.

[EagleMark]

That was back in 2000, really anything you need to know should be out there. Really all you need to know is what to use for injectors, then make an adapter to newer TB. I have most everything saved from DIY-EFI and GMECM so if you have the URL let me know?

But we've been told before this happens and it always comes back.

[JeepsAndGuns]

is MPFI really needed? would I see that big of a difference? is the difference worth the additional cost?

If I can ever get my air intake situation figured out, I will let you know. :happy:

[EagleMark]

I doubt you'd notice the difference compared to the extra money your going to spend? JMO... you've got everything needed for TBI except a decent adapter so $70 or several hundred more for MPFI...

[1project2many]

Whoops! I thought it was just broken links. We'll see. The list appears to be running still so someone probably forgot to move the software for the site. Anyway, no reason to lament about how difficult life is with an Olds. Bob's project didn't require a ton of work. Anyone who's truly spent time building an Olds will think this swap an easy one indeed.

[Six_Shooter]

The 4 BBL throttle body that I posted pictures of a couple months ago is sitting on top of an Olds, 468 c.i. IIRC. I'm getting it pretty close on the tune now, replacing the fuel system REALLY helped there.

Just thought I'd post about other Olds injection swaps. ;)

[dyeager535]

Its good to hear there are more Olds' out there being injected. But I can lament all day...what's the Olds equivalent to a Vortec head? What's that? Newest production SBO head design was in 1985?! Just horsing around. Life would probably be easier if I weren't dealing with the G-body, although finally someone makes headers for that application.

Found an injected Seville on Craigslist already, but guy won't part the car and wants $450 for it. I don't need to pay $450 for an intake and rails.

Maybe I should start another thread for Olds injection, hijacking this thread has been fun though.

[1project2many]

The Olds equivalent to a Vortec head? 2 BAR MAP sensor, EFI, and forced induction. Works for almost any engine actually.

Next?? :)

Find Bruce Roe and the guys from the Caddy list. Maybe someone there can help you find the parts you need.

Or look at CL nationally.
http://atlanta.craigslist.org/wat/app/2902469293.html

[PJG1173]

I doubt you'd notice the difference compared to the extra money your going to spend? JMO... you've got everything needed for TBI except a decent adapter so $70 or several hundred more for MPFI...

I already have the Holley BB to square bore adapter. I'm sticking with TBI for now since I have almost everything I need and the cost involved with the MPFI. MPFI will be one of those "just because I can" future upgrades. probably go with a stealth ram next year or so...

Does anyone have a V8 memcal they would sell?

[EagleMark]

I think gregs78cam has some in for sale section...

[1project2many]

Stealth Ram is a nice intake for making power.

Edit: Was thinking of Accell Superram

[gregs78cam]

I think gregs78cam has some in for sale section...

The last batch of PCMs I got were all V6s. I have 2 V8 PCMs with memcals. I also have one memcal without Eprom but I don't know what it was out of. I am pretty sure it came from one of the two '7060s that I have without memcals. Does anyone know where that thread is that had ESC ID numbers? Memcal w/o Eprom is 2195146 ESC.

[PJG1173]

Stealth Ram is a nice intake for making power.

Edit: Was thinking of Accell Superram

this is what I think I'll try to work up to in a year or so. maybe I'll be better at tuning by then...

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/WND-7542/

[EagleMark]

That is nice looking... but I saw the suggested parts list and started adding it up... then injectors and an air filter and was up to $2000... :yikes:

[PJG1173]

That is nice looking... but I saw the suggested parts list and started adding it up... then injectors and an air filter and was up to $2000... :yikes:

according to the instructions: It may be necessary to purchase some of the parts listed below (or the equivalent) in order to properly complete the manifold installation. Determination of equivalency is the responsibility of the consumer and Holley Performance Products does not assume that responsibility.

from what I understand the TPI stuff will work on it. I just need to find a tpi I can scavenge for parts.

[EagleMark]

That would be a lot cheaper but it's still an expensive proposition. Well worth it if a motor was built that could use it! Sure looks cool! Looks way taller than a TPI intake which should be OK with stock hood on full size truck...

[PJG1173]

That would be a lot cheaper but it's still an expensive proposition. Well worth it if a motor was built that could use it! Sure looks cool! Looks way taller than a TPI intake which should be OK with stock hood on full size truck...

at that point it would be the WOW factor I was going for. the trucks name is overkill... hood clearance isn't an issue with the 3" body lift and the motor has been lowered futher down between the framerails.

[EagleMark]

OverKill is a common name for a truck! Here's another named OverKill behind my Wagon...

[PJG1173]

OverKill is a common name for a truck! Here's another named OverKill behind my Wagon...

shouldn't that one be called Roadkill now?:innocent: and BTW a 4runner is listed as a SW (station wagon) on a FL title not a truck...

[EagleMark]

OK Overkill is behind RoadKill... :rolleye: From RoadMaster to RoadKill... not funny... I am now depressed and going to bed...

[PJG1173]

LOL nice scout. here is my overkill (even if the plate says overk1ll)

20642065

[EagleMark]

Your Toy has bigger tires then the full size trucks! :thumbsup:

My kids toy is on 36 inch tires and full exo. Sitting on the bench here is his new 4.7 low transfer case hooked to a doubler ready to go in.

[1project2many]

at that point it would be the WOW factor I was going for. the trucks name is overkill... hood clearance isn't an issue with the 3" body lift (http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=body+lift) and the motor has been lowered futher down between the framerails.

Keep checking CL and Ebay for a marine intake. The wow factor is though the roof, and they work extremely well. I also have the scorpion intake which I'm really hoping to use on the 302 I built for my wife's 95 Blazer:
20672068

[PJG1173]

I've seen that intake on ebay for like $400 complete, but I wasn't sure how that one would flow in comparison to the intake I have right now. I have a lead on a boat junk yard about an hour from me. I'm going to give them a call and see if they have any of the newer style vortec MPFI intakes floating around in thier yard.

[1project2many]

The scorpion boats are sold for waterskiing and somtimes have higher hp ratings. Granted the tunnel ram style intake will support mega power, but chances are the OE engine under the carb style intake made similar power to yours.