Oil temp measuring

[dyeager535]

I've been debating this idea for awhile. I *think* the oil drain plug threads on the "early" Chev small blocks (before they went metric apparently) might be compatible with the Chevy coolant temperature sensors used for the coolant temp gauge, in the drivers side head. Two thread sizes, early was large, later was small, but I believe later is 3/8" NPT. I can't find anything stating what the stock oil pan threads are though. 3/8" sounds about right for mine. Two good things there...my oil pan drain plug comes off nearly parallel with the ground, so very little risk of snagging it on something, and the later coolant temp sensors had pre-attached wiring, which would be more resistant to coming off. With the oil pan being so close to the front axle on 4WD, I think there is little risk of hitting it with anything.

Thus, I think it would be possible (and relatively easy) to use a stock coolant temp sensor to monitor engine oil temps. My reasoning of course is because of how hard on oil highway mode can be.

I have the engine oil cooler setup on my K5, so I'm not that concerned with temperature, but it would be a nifty gadget, and would be interesting to see how much of a difference there is between highway and non-highway mode oil temps. Eventually I'd like to compare oil temps with and without the cooler itself (regardless of highway mode) to see how effective it is.

I wonder if there is any location within the ECM that would allow an ECM coolant sensor to be used for oil temp, essentially two temperature inputs that could be datalogged? I suppose the stock ECM coolant temp sensor could be used, but I have to assume oil temps get too high, and would cause some bad running.

If that is possible, it would then be possible and very easy to wire up a stock truck coolant temp gauge to monitor that sender, or any gauge that operates the same way.

[EagleMark]

As far as going to gauge that would be up to gauge, actually just wire it into coolant temp gauge would work. Putting it in data stream code be done, there are spots in bin to change ALDL output to another item, where to put it in ECM? What ECM?

I could add an item to ADX file or change one that's there. I have an AutoProm so I could use one of the three inputs for this during dataLog. Have to have an open slot in ECM though like if there were no EGR! Or?

In the end we could watch oil temp and have a real life test for oil temp increase. Other benefit would be able to watch oil temps for advancing timing! So cool idea! :happy:

[Nasty-Z]

Stock oil pan drain plug threads were 1/2-20 straight (bolt) thread on all SBC and BBC until the "Metric" revolution (then they were 12mmX1.75) . You are correct about the later temp sensors being 3/8" NPT , the early sensors were 1/2" NPT .

If you use an aftermarket sensor with an 1/8 NPT thread , B&M makes a drain plug kit (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/BMM-80250/) that will screw into the early 1/2-20 oil pans and let you screw in a 1/8 NPT sensor , it is how I monitor Oil temp on most everything I drive with an aftermarket gauge , as far as using one of the aftermarket sensors and inputing that reading into the ECM/PCM , hopefully someone with more knowledge will chime in on that .

FWIW , if somebody (smarter than me) had this input avalible in $OD and/or $OE using a specified sensor , I would be all in to get this in the datastream. I have some aftermarket (1/8"NPT) Autometer sensors I could measure resistance if need be .

TOM

[EagleMark]

Not sure what aftermarket sensors read? But CTS values of GM units is known and lookup tables are already done in ADX files, so that is cheap piece with known values.

Coolant Tempreture Sensor readings Link (http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?74-Coolant-Temperature-Sensor-Diagnostic-Test-CTS&highlight=Coolant+Temperature+Sensor)

EDIT: Temp sensor readings can be changed in ADX lookup table.

Coolant sensor approximate resistance specifications:

177 ohms @ 212 deg. F. or 100 deg. C.
241 ohms @ 194 deg. F. or 90 deg. C.
332 ohms @ 176 deg. F. or 80 deg. C.
467 ohms @ 158 deg. F. or 70 deg. C.
667 ohms @ 140 deg. F. or 60 deg. C.
973 ohms @ 122 deg. F. or 50 deg. C.
1188 ohms @ 113 deg. F. or45 deg. C.
1459 ohms @ 104 deg. F. or 40 deg. C.
1802 ohms @ 95 deg. F. or 35 deg. C.
2238 ohms @ 86 deg. F. or 30 deg. C.
2796 ohms @ 77 deg. F. or 25 deg. C.
3520 ohms @ 68 deg. F. or 20 deg. C.
4450 ohms @ 59 deg. F. or 15 deg. C.
5670 ohms @ 50 deg. F. or 10 deg. C.
7280 ohms @ 41 deg. F. or 5 deg. C.
9420 ohms @ 32 deg. F. or 0 deg. C.
12300 ohms @ 23 deg. F. or -5 deg. C.
16180 ohms @ 14 deg. F. or -10 deg. C.
21450 ohms @ 5 deg. F. or -15 deg. C.
28680 ohms @ -4 deg. F. or -20 deg. C.
52700 ohms @ -22 deg. F. or -30 deg. C.
100700 ohms @ -40 deg. F. or - 40 deg. C.

ADX lookup Table
<ADXLOOKUPTABLE id="10" idhash="0xDE6A9050" title="Coolant Temp in C">
<desc>&lt;Comments&gt;</desc>
<inputtype>1</inputtype>
<outputtype>3</outputtype>
<lookupmode>0</lookupmode>
<entrycount>39</entrycount>
<tableentry input="1.000000" output="200.000000" />
<tableentry input="13.000000" output="150.000000" />
<tableentry input="14.000000" output="145.000000" />
<tableentry input="15.000000" output="140.000000" />
<tableentry input="17.000000" output="135.000000" />
<tableentry input="19.000000" output="130.000000" />
<tableentry input="22.000000" output="125.000000" />
<tableentry input="24.000000" output="120.000000" />
<tableentry input="27.000000" output="115.000000" />
<tableentry input="31.000000" output="110.000000" />
<tableentry input="35.000000" output="105.000000" />
<tableentry input="40.000000" output="100.000000" />
<tableentry input="45.000000" output="95.000000" />
<tableentry input="51.000000" output="90.000000" />
<tableentry input="57.000000" output="85.000000" />
<tableentry input="65.000000" output="80.000000" />
<tableentry input="73.000000" output="75.000000" />
<tableentry input="82.000000" output="70.000000" />
<tableentry input="93.000000" output="65.000000" />
<tableentry input="103.000000" output="60.000000" />
<tableentry input="115.000000" output="55.000000" />
<tableentry input="127.000000" output="50.000000" />
<tableentry input="140.000000" output="45.000000" />
<tableentry input="153.000000" output="40.000000" />
<tableentry input="166.000000" output="35.000000" />
<tableentry input="178.000000" output="30.000000" />
<tableentry input="190.000000" output="25.000000" />
<tableentry input="200.000000" output="20.000000" />
<tableentry input="210.000000" output="15.000000" />
<tableentry input="219.000000" output="10.000000" />
<tableentry input="226.000000" output="5.000000" />
<tableentry input="232.000000" output="0.000000" />
<tableentry input="238.000000" output="-5.000000" />
<tableentry input="242.000000" output="-10.000000" />
<tableentry input="246.000000" output="-15.000000" />
<tableentry input="248.000000" output="-20.000000" />
<tableentry input="251.000000" output="-25.000000" />
<tableentry input="252.000000" output="-30.000000" />
<tableentry input="256.000000" output="-40.000000" />
</ADXLOOKUPTABLE>

[dyeager535]

So the pan is not NPT, but the senders are, thus won't work as-is.

I know there is a bushing for using the 3/8" sender in a 1/2" head, anyone aware if there is a bushing 3/8 NPT to 1/2" normal thread? Not finding anything via Google. Have a buddy who does some plumbing, if he's got the right size pipe tap, could certainly make the right piece, as there are 1/2" to 1/4" (or 1/8") bushings. He might be interested in this idea as well. :)

Only reason I thought of the stock sender is that I have a fair number of them around. I'd prefer to decrease my piles of parts lol.

Edit: Is there any way the gauge sender could be used by the ECM, as opposed to the coolant sensor? I understand the difference between the two (CTS using reference voltage) but is there some way the ECM could simply measure resistance to ground, just like the gauges do?

Certainly nice to add the info to the datastream, a gauge is the more low-tech method. In the datastream I assume you could say "it went Hiway mode here, and oil temps started to climb at the same time", or similar. Versus staring at the laptop screen and another gauge.

[EagleMark]

Nasty Z gave a link to adapter that would work, it is designed to be added to trans pan but has right specs to go in your oil drain hole.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/BMM-80250/?rtype=10

Might be a cheaper brass fitting available?

Using stock CTS sensor is easy start, cheap part even if new. Not sure if it would work tied to ECM and a gauge... Probably not as the stock EFI system has seperate sender for gauge and ECM.

Not sure on rest..

[dyeager535]

Darn, looks like lost post. Stupid work. :)

Brass and steel 1/2-20 to 1/4 or 1/8 bushings are available. Would just need to tap it to 3/8 NPT. Should be simple. FINDING a bushing locally that fits the bill might be a bit more challenging, but they are available online.

[RobertISaar]

later coolant temp sensors were 3 wire, 2 for the ECM's A/D circuit, the last for driving the gauge. seems like an easy and thorough way of doing it.

also, IIRC, the 90-91 corvettes w/5.7 TPI used an oil temp sensor from the factory. that's on a 1227727, but still, any ECM that has at least 1 spare 5V biased A/D channel will work. just need to change the normalization conversion depending on the resistor that's feeding the sensor.

[dyeager535]

Do you know what year/application they started using the three wire coolant temp sensors? I have wondered for quite some time why they went to three wire oil pressure senders/switches but kept the separate CTS/gauge sender for coolant. Apparently they did at some point. I hadn't run across a three wire coolant device, or I would have swapped mine already!

Another possible "feature" would be if it were possible to trigger a "check engine" light with a low or high temperature reading...could use the temp sender as a low oil/hot oil warning as well, if it were placed in the pan in a location that was normally well immersed in oil with the engine running.

[RobertISaar]

10096181

that's the part number for the one i'm thinking of. check it out on rockauto, you'll get a good idea of what they were used in.

[EagleMark]

Cool! I got one of those brand new in box sitting here, came in a bunch of stuff I got of eBay! Sweet, will do ECM and a gauge... wonder if it will run an aftermarket gauge? Just looked at RockAuto and they are cheap as well.

1/4 inch hole should tap easy to 3/8 NPT!

[gregs78cam]

?s. PCM? MASK? Trans? Reason I ask is, if '7427 w/Manual, there would be an unused temp input for trans fluid temp.

AutoMeter has some 1/8"NPT temp senders, I have one in intake and one in radiator.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ATM-2385

[Nasty-Z]

1/4 inch hole should tap easy to 3/8 NPT!

A 1/4" hole will not tap to 3/8"NPT .

3/8" NPT requires a 9/16" (.5625) hole to start with .

Only problem I see with using a stock sensor is that even the small 3/8" NPT would require you to remove the pan to tap for a fitting that big , there is not enough meat on the nut on the inside of the pan to go much bigger . Although I would not want to tap it with it still installed anyway .

TOM

[dyeager535]

That's a bummer. It would have to be the B&M setup then for the pan plug. Of course, once you get to the point of buying a tap, or welding fittings on pans, whatever, it's probably the cost of just buying an aftermarket sender.

Any chance GM (or anyone) went with smaller than 3/8" coolant stuff?

IIRC, the oil pressure switch/sender that screwed into the block was 1/8" or 1/4" (MOST oil holes in the block were 1/8) finding a smaller stock sensor could be another option as well.

One above the oil filter, if tapped, was typically 1/4"? I suppose you could "upsize" one of the block fittings, but not sure how accurate the oil temp would be compared to pan. Never have seen oil temp at various locations in the block covered.

Still have the aftermarket sender option, but the three wire stock one is attractive.

[EagleMark]

Don't know what ECM mask trans yet, think dyeager has a few, me too...

I keep telling you guys I'm not good with math! Unless it's a wrench! Got my 8ths and 16th with 4th all mixed up...

The three wire coolant sensor I have 5/8 inch in thread grooves. Is it metric 16mm? The small 2 wire I think is a gauge as the other one just mounted in kids truck was bigger, it is 7/16 or 11mm.

[PJG1173]

couldn't you T into one of the oil cooler lines or the oil pressure sender? I also know on some small blocks there were oil senders in the block just above the oil filter along with the one behind the intake.

[Nasty-Z]

couldn't you T into one of the oil cooler lines or the oil pressure sender? I also know on some small blocks there were oil senders in the block just above the oil filter along with the one behind the intake.

You could in theory "T" in an oil cooler line if so equipped .

The port on a SBC above the filter is tapped 1/4" NPT , the one behind the distributor is 1/8" NPT . BBC uses a 3/8" NPT above the filter and 1/4" NPT along the pan rails .

IMHO , all fluid temps (Oil , Trans, etc) should be measured in the sump , as that is the fluid that the engine (or trans , etc) will be using.

TOM

[dyeager535]

I'm running the '165 with 6E, but eventually will go with the '727.

Three wire GM I think would be the easiest since the resistance is known, but do other manufacturers use different resistance, etc.? I'm not opposed to another manufacturers product if it can do what we want.

This brings me back to the Napa Echlin catalog, which I recall listed everything about the sender/switch...number of wires, "high/low" resistance numbers, thread/pitch, etc. I wouldn't mind getting my hands on one of those, never could find it online.

[Nasty-Z]

Let me know which part #'s you need info on , I worked at NAPA and still have most all of the catalogs as well as Pro-Link on line

TOM

[EagleMark]

The oil pan/sump would be best but if you can't use the oil drain plug it invloves removing the pan.

T-ing into feed line to cooler sounds like a good idea! If you have a cooler. Although I don't know if I would want to mess with those lines? T would also have to allow tip of sender to be in flow.

The other plugged openings don't sound like a good flow and to small for any sender we know of yet? Nasty Z seems to know quite a bit about the chevy engines and maybe he knows if one of those plugged holes has good flow if we found a suitable sender.

For me if I can't get data into log and only a gauge I'd be loosing intrest is why I like the 3 wire GM CTS sender.

[dyeager535]

Yes, I think we are going to need to come up with something substantially smaller if this is going to work. I agree the pan is the better location, it's just a matter of finding something to fit.

I had hoped the oil pan threads would have matched the sender body.

[Nasty-Z]

I have a couple of ideas , let me ponder it tomorrow .

I need to take the sensor and see if it can be "massaged" into fitting into a 1/2-20 hole

TOM

[EagleMark]

I know what your tinking but don't have a 1/2 20 die...

[dyeager535]

Let me know which part #'s you need info on , I worked at NAPA and still have most all of the catalogs as well as Pro-Link on line

TOM

Tom, you don't happen to know where, if anywhere, the echlin catalog is available online do you? What I liked about it was you could simply look at all the different sensors, and just pick one that had the right features for whatever you wanted to do. I remember looking for coolant fan switches. The catalog specified the on/off temps, so I could pick one that worked when I wanted it to, without having to wade through the painful process of picking a vehicle and drilling down. Kind of like the Dorman catalog section on wheel studs. No application listed, just the pertinent specs for you to make a decision.

They may not even print something like that anymore.

[EagleMark]

I know what your tinking but don't have a 1/2 20 die...Yes I did! :rockon:

http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/attachment.php?attachmentid=1986&stc=1&d=1331698208

[dyeager535]

I like this. I come up with crazy idea, you execute it! :)

[EagleMark]

Just team work! :thumbsup:

[EagleMark]

It was Nasty Z that made me do it! :innocent:

Since the three wire CTS was about 5/8 I took most of it off with the grinder, then thought it has to seal with a plastic washer like a drain plug... so I put my drill in the vise and chucked up the sensing end and spun it on high while using a file to get the bottom of sensor bolt/nut flat and diameter down to a size that would fit in die and let it get started. Little oil and poof!

[gregs78cam]

That was quick!!!. Looks good. Is that connector a "1 on top of 2" like a triangle?

[EagleMark]

Yup, same as part number Robert listed earlier.

The thread took all day, but the work on sensor was only 30 minutes. Now if the kids IH has the same oil drain plug as a chevy I'll wire it into the trans temp pin on 16197427 PCM right? Cause I think it was mentioned earlier that my 1990 Suburban oil pan would be metric... and I doubt I have an extra pin on 1227747. Suburban is bone stock other than chip...

[JeepsAndGuns]

I dont know what the ohm readings are, but the temp sending unit for the factory gauge on my 79 cherokee is a very small (like 1/4in dia) sender. Its a one wire sender though. Also the sending unit for the gauge on my 93 wrangler is the same size, but dont know the ohm reading on it either.

Neat idea about replacing the drain plug with a temp sender and using the trans temp input. Can you change the values to what temp would trigger a check engine light? Only problem I see with that, is you wont know what triggered the check engine light untill you scan it. I think I would prefer a gauge myself.

[Nasty-Z]

Looks good Mark , just what I was thinking.

That with a sealing washer and it should be good to go .

Now where would we input it into say a '7427 PCM ?

TOM

[PJG1173]

good question. On my 8625 I'm already using b16 for the wideband, e3 & e7 for fan control, and I have a 4l60e.

[Nasty-Z]

Now if the kids IH has the same oil drain plug as a chevy

It does , 1/2"-20 :thumbsup:


Tom, you don't happen to know where, if anywhere, the echlin catalog is available online do you? What I liked about it was you could simply look at all the different sensors, and just pick one that had the right features for whatever you wanted to do. I remember looking for coolant fan switches. The catalog specified the on/off temps, so I could pick one that worked when I wanted it to, without having to wade through the painful process of picking a vehicle and drilling down. Kind of like the Dorman catalog section on wheel studs. No application listed, just the pertinent specs for you to make a decision.

They may not even print something like that anymore.

Let me see if I still have an extra , if so ill get your info and send it to 'ya

TOM

[EagleMark]

Looks good Mark , just what I was thinking.

That with a sealing washer and it should be good to go .

Now where would we input it into say a '7427 PCM ?

TOMWhen you had mentioned masaging it the light bulb went off in my head and I knew what you were thinking. So I used the bench grinder and slowly twisted it to get it narrowed down and when the threads were gone was thinking... hmmm... this has to seal, can't just RTV seal it in, it has to be like a drain pug! So I stopped grinding, next time I think I would use the drill in vise, or a lathe if my buddy ever get's his new one wired in shop!!! :rolleye:
But anyway spinning in drill the brass is easy to work, with a good file. Got it nice and round and the nut end smooth and flat for a drain plug sealing washer. Spinning stright in a drill at high speed has it very smotth and true! Then put the die in vice and threaded it into die with box wrench, once I got first thread or 2 going in straight it was piece of cake.

good question. On my 8625 I'm already using b16 for the wideband, e3 & e7 for fan control, and I have a 4l60e. Greg had mentioned pin B5 for tranny temp but your already using it? Since mine has a manual that's where I plan to go. Found some other extra pins on 16197427 wiring diagrams that someone obviously figured out how to use E3 and E7 for fans! So still has A11, A13, B1, B4, B7, B14, F4, F5, C1, C2... so would need to figure out what they do and do a hac in XDF and ADX like the fan relay project and POOF! One more cool thing to add to $OD type stuff.

93V8S10 has so much time into these he probably knows already what would work and what would not? We're going to have to find him a job where he can spend more time on internet!
:rockon:

[RobertISaar]

http://www.exatorq.com/ludis_obd1/schematics.html

you might find some extra 7747 A/D pins(uses same board as 8746?) there. no 7427 though.

Ludis was quite a pioneer.

[93V8S10]

[QUOTE=EagleMark;6967] So still has A11, A13, B1, B4, B7, B14, F4, F5, C1, C2... [QUOTE]
A11 = unknown

A13 = HIGH A/C PRESSURE RPM COMPENSATION
AC High Pressure Switch
Must be grounded for normal idle, open for higher idle. AC doesn't need to be on. No known bins with this active.

B1 = DIS Ignition System
1 X Signal for ASDF (Alternate Synchronous Double Fire)

B4 = Sensor Ground
MAP, IAT, Transmission
MAP (A), IAT (B), and Transmission Ground (M)

B6 = May be a 5V reference output

B7 = Knock Signal (THIS MAY BE WRONG! Anyone have a 95 P30 wiring diagram?)
ESC Module
Possibly for using old style under hood mounted spark module. Wire like 95 P30 Van.

B11 = unknown
B14 = unknown
F4 & F5 = unknown
C1 & C2 = don’t exist

Without knowing if we have another temp input, you would have to use the trans temp pin and modify the bin to keep the trans in normal mode. To use, you would have to drive the vehicle to warm it up, then switch wiring and bins for dataloging the oil temp. Really need another pin for this...

[PJG1173]

would this be something that could be datalogged via the extra inputs on the moates autoprom?

[gregs78cam]

Well I have a spare '7427 or two, so I disassembled it to try to figure out where these pins go, but.....is this a 3 layer board? That makes tracing it really hard.

[RobertISaar]

my 16149396 is a 4 layer board, so probably at least 3 layers for you.

[EagleMark]

would this be something that could be datalogged via the extra inputs on the moates autoprom?Yes!

There's some new wiring diagrams in $OE and $85 that may help?

[RobertISaar]

the autoprom being able to natively datalog a temp sensor is dependant on whether or not it has any bias resistors on the A/D channel.

since a temp sensor is basically a temperature controlled rheostat, the amount of resistance they produce to allow a certain voltage to remain in the A/C circuit, which is how the A/D system measures them.

simple explanation: feed 5V through a 4K resistor to a temp sensor, measure the voltage using a voltmeter between the 4K resistor and the 5V power source, you'll see 5 volts. now measure between the 4K resistor and the sensor, you'll see a different voltage, dependant on the amount of resistance from the sensor. high resistance = higher voltage. lower resistance = lower voltage.

now if the autoprom doesn't have any native pull up resistors, bit more difficult, since that essentially guarantee that there are pull-down resistors installed.

[EagleMark]

I also have a printed 16168625 and I beleive 16197427 that both say knock is B15.

Where I saw C1 and 2 I don't know but your right not on these diagrams...

[EagleMark]

the autoprom being able to natively datalog a temp sensor is dependant on whether or not it has any bias resistors on the A/D channel.

since a temp sensor is basically a temperature controlled rheostat, the amount of resistance they produce to allow a certain voltage to remain in the A/C circuit, which is how the A/D system measures them.

simple explanation: feed 5V through a 4K resistor to a temp sensor, measure the voltage using a voltmeter between the 4K resistor and the 5V power source, you'll see 5 volts. now measure between the 4K resistor and the sensor, you'll see a different voltage, dependant on the amount of resistance from the sensor. high resistance = higher voltage. lower resistance = lower voltage.

now if the autoprom doesn't have any native pull up resistors, bit more difficult, since that essentially guarantee that there are pull-down resistors installed.I wish I took the electronics course in high school but that was before EFI so I thought a waste of time... that said you can feed 5 volts from wide band O2 sensor in and use it, so would that answer the question?

[RobertISaar]

well, there are essentially 2 types of sensors the A/D system can read:

1. temp type (usually 2 wires(AKA rheostat)): they get 5V fed through a small value resistor(pull-up) on one side, the other connected to a ground. the different resistances it can produce determines the A/D result that the A/D converter comes up with when it reads the channel. common resistor values are 1K, 4K and 348 ohm. i can't remember which ones are optimal for which range of sensor resistance, but lets ignore that for now.

2. every other type (usually 3 wires(AKA potentiometer)): they get fed 5V from one terminal, connected to ground through the second, then the third is connected to the ECM's A/D circuit. the 5V doesn't need to have a resistor on it, since it doesn't use a varying resistance alone to make a signal. anyways, the sensor is essentially a voltage divider. let's think about a TPS unit for a second. hold the throttle completely closed and you'll have close to 0 volts going to the A/D circuit, this is because most of the voltage is going through the ground circuit due to lower resistance being there. now open the throttle to 50% and you'll see ~2.5 volts. this is due to having roughly equal resistance on both the ground circuit and the A/D circuit. now open the throttle to 100%. now you'll see close to 5 volts on the A/D circuit since it's now the path of least resistance.

now, generally an A/D channel will have a pull up resistor attached or a pull down resistor attached, based on what the circuit is needed for. pull up for the temp sensors, pull down for the non-temp sensors. i'm not 100% certain if the pull down resistor is necessary, but if i had to guess, it would be for signal stability.

but, if you attempt to add a pull-up resistor to a circuit that already has a pull-down resistor, it will automatically start draining current that you applied to it, essentially making the circuit a lot less usable than it could be, since now you have to attempt to account for that as well.

i converted 3 pull-up style A/D circuits to pull-down on my 9396 by simply moving the "pull" resistors from a 5V connection to ground. easier said than done, since soldering SMT stuff isn't something everyone can do, but it's certainly possible.

[dyeager535]

Sorry guys, I'd be more active, but some filter on the work system has blocked me from accessing the site for more than a couple of minutes a day. Once/if that clears up I'll be back! Looking good so far. Guess I'm going to have to start researching the '730 AND '165 6E in regards to this, depending on how long it takes me to swap.

[PJG1173]

I wish I took the electronics course in high school but that was before EFI so I thought a waste of time... that said you can feed 5 volts from wide band O2 sensor in and use it, so would that answer the question?
yeah back then the vacuum tubes kept breaking when you hit a bump so efi wasn't possible right? Seriously though I took 2 years of electricity and electronics in vocational school and this is still fussy to me. guess thats what I get for learning something that I didn't really use for 20 years

[woody80z28]

I like this idea, especially since I dont need the trans temp pin for the stupid 4l60e I yanked out!

[Nasty-Z]

yeah back then the vacuum tubes kept breaking when you hit a bump so efi wasn't possible right?

That one's got to sting........ LOL

TOM

[EagleMark]

That one's got to sting........ LOL

TOMWell a couple years before gaduation (time I was in auto shop) the TV repair man came to the house and put one in our TV...

[dyeager535]

Did a bit more research. Corvette's used an oil temp setup on the 1227727 (weather resistant '730).

Sensor is here: http://www.ecklerscorvette.com/corvette-oil-temperature-sensor-1990-1996.html 1/4" threads. Three wire. I saw some talk of the Vette's that era having a gauge (makes sense w/ 3 wires), and since there is code in the '727 for it, obviously was used. A bit pricey with other options out there, I think Mark has the best solution yet. I suppose this one may allow rethreading down to 1/8"? No reason to use it vs. what Mark used I can think of, unless you just can't mount it in the drain plug location.

Post here on oil temp sensor: http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/diy-prom/320448-oil-temperature-sensor.html

Hac for '727 showing oil info http://www.diy-efi.org/gmecm/papers/anht_hac.pdf

Some talk here as well, http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/diy-prom/632236-wb-datalogging-input-question.html Based on post #2, does that mean the correct sender should be a simply plug and play?

This stuff is beyond me for the most part. Anything valuable in any of that?

[EagleMark]

I'll look at that other stuff later but wanted to mention 1994 to 1997 up LT1 Corvette also used Oil Temp sender and has same PCM as Camaro Impala Buick and Caddilac with LT1 that does not use oil temp sender. So there may be another sender to look into and the PCM on those cars actually have the spot in bin and adx for it already!

The 1227727 corvette you mention is earleier then LT1 I mention so probably 1992 and 1993 LT1 corvette had it as well.

Would have to be pretty cheap to match the 3 wire CTS I used with half hour work. But you say they are smaller for other spots and without work to rethread...

[dyeager535]

Interesting, unless I'm doing something wrong, I can't find reference to the oil temp stuff in any of the bins available, using TP4 or 5. This includes ANHT shown in the Hac above, which clearly DOES have the oil stuff in it.

I also checked out the ADS for the turbo 3100 motor, no mention of it there. Code 62 is listed, but for transmission. No ADS I've found for the Y-body '727 setups.

Edit: It's a bit buried in Super_8dm2.ecu (http://www.tunerpro.net/download/bindefs/GM/Super_8dm2.ecu) but the trouble codes for oil temp are there (not that I understand how they've done the codes in that one), I'm assuming that there is more work to have it seen/read via ALDL though.

[RobertISaar]

oil temp is just a simple A/D read, then normalization, then store to RAM for either usage or just monitoring.

[EagleMark]

I found it in $DA3.ads/adx it is on pin C15, which is the LT1 for 1993 ECM looks simalar to 1227730 and the ALDL says
" 26 ADOILTMP A/D RESULT FOR OIL TEMPERATURE SENSOR INPUT
SEE OIL TEMP. LOOK-UP TABLE (NON-DEFAULTED)"
It has one wire from ECM to sensor, one to ground and other to gauge. Just like the 3 wire coolant temp sensor.

So the ADX file needs a lookup table which is already built, it has 256 counts and each one has a degree in F or C. You'd need to find the ECM/PCM your going to use.Find an extra pin or one not being used. Do a hac in TP on bin for one of the ALDL outputs to put it in data stream and then build a value in ADX.

For me it was easy as I have a tranny temp pin not being used on 16197427...

So what ECM are you going to use and we can start figuring it out?

[RobertISaar]

actually, the 92-93 LT1 PCM looks similar to the 1227727, however, it's actually a P6 unit, not a P4.

EDIT: actually. and yes, i am nerd, hear me type.

[EagleMark]

So it looks like the old ECM but it's really like the newer LT1 underhood ECM/PCM? I get the 27 30 mixed up in my non nerd head! When I looked at wiring I knew it was differant though. Some of the wiring diagrams we have are all pins even unused and some are only the used pins which makes it hard to see what is left over to track down.

Point was the info is there and in later LT1. Just need to find an extra pin or in my case pin not being used and do the ADX work.

[RobertISaar]

closer to the later PCM than the 7727. it's a P6, the 94-95 is a P66.

but that's just trivia at this point. it may not be as simple as hooking up the pin and modding the ADX, it may be necessary to impliment a small patch to force the ECM to read that specific A/D channel, assuming you can find an open one.

[dyeager535]

So what ECM are you going to use and we can start figuring it out?

Was that directed at me? Apparently I'm missing the thread update emails in my inbox.

In any case, I think I'm going to end up going to the '727. I can't fit the '730 or '727 in the stock ECM holder for the trucks ('165 and '747 have the connectors on the end of the case still, so the stock truck holder worked), I think the '727 makes more sense. Just mount it underhood. It looks to be pretty darn water resistant, more than I expected. Still have to get my hands on a couple. Then I'll have to deal with trying to hook the autoprom to it!

Mark, you get anywhere on hooking your oil temp setup up? Curious how that works. I got a TBI wiring harness for my car, depending on which ECM I decide for that application oil temp reading for that would be handy as well. It's a tough setup to cool.

[RobertISaar]

if you have the connectors hooked up and all fasteners properly tightened and all weatherseals in place, you can actually dunk a 7727 in water while powered on and nothing bad will happen. not that i recommend trying this, but they are watertight.

also: the 7727 has a BUNCH of unused A/D channels even in stock configuration.

[JeepsAndGuns]

Ok, showing my noobness. I see this mentioned on this site a lot but have no idea what it means.
What is "A/D" Like you speak of just above.

[RobertISaar]

analog to digital:

it's how the PCM interprets sensors. long story shorter, the ECM reads a 0-5V sensor and then converts it into binary format so that it can know what a certain sensor is doing for all of it's various purposes.

[EagleMark]

Where's the 0 to 255 come in?

[RobertISaar]

well, the A/D system in these ECMs are 0-5 volt 8-bit converters. 0 volts means 0 A/D counts. 5 volts means 255 counts. each count is 0.01953125 volts. notice 255 * 0.01953125 = 4.98volts. can't express decimal 256 in 8 bit numbering.

if it was a 10-bit system(like the autoPROM has), then it would be 0 to 1023 counts. assuming a 5 volt system, each count is 0.0048875855327468230694037145650049 volts.

notice, it's 2 to the nth power minus 1. 2 being that there are only two states (binary 1 and 0), and N being the bit resolution. 2^8 = 256, then subtract 1 due to not being able to express $100(decimal 256) in 8 bit format, and you have the 0-255 range.



now, once you get that figured out, think about the other analog inputs that are used by the ECM that aren't 5 volts... O2 sensor is 0-roughly 1.127 volts over a 0-255 range. and then you have ignition and fuel pump voltage available in a 0-25.5 volt range.... to read over 5 volts with a 5 volt A/D converter, you need to make a voltage divider network. let's say we have a 0-10 volt sensor, since it's easy to calculate. we make a voltage divider with the sensor signal going through a resistor (let's say a 1K, since it's a common unit), then on the other side of this 1K resistor, there is another 1K resistor, this one connected to ground. now, the A/D channel will be connected between the two resistors(since before the first will still be 10 volts and after the second will be ground), and that will allow a 0-10V sensor to be read using a 0-5V A/D unit.

the O2 sensor.... well, that's why the O2 sensor amplifier is there. i'm not entirely certain how it works, but from what i understand, it simply takes the 0-1.127 volt signal and multiplies the voltage by a factor of ~4.43, and at that point, it outputs a signal for the A/D system to read.

[JeepsAndGuns]

:yikes:

Umm, so in laymans terms, its just a lot of un used possiable sensor inputs?

[RobertISaar]

depending on the mask you want to run, yes. certain ones only want to see the basic coolant temp, IAT, TPS, MAP and maybe a couple of others...

some want those + trans temp, oil temp, a/c pressure, etc, etc....



keep in mind, that was a description only for the analog inputs, there are also discrete inputs, which are a little less confusing to explain, those are basically switches.

[EagleMark]

:yikes:

Umm, so in laymans terms, its just a lot of un used possiable sensor inputs?
well, the A/D system in these ECMs are 0-5 volt 8-bit converters. 0 volts means 0 A/D counts. 5 volts means 255 counts. each count is 0.01953125 volts. notice 255 * 0.01953125 = 4.98volts. can't express decimal 256 in 8 bit numbering.

if it was a 10-bit system(like the autoPROM has), then it would be 0 to 1023 counts. assuming a 5 volt system, each count is 0.0048875855327468230694037145650049 volts.

notice, it's 2 to the nth power minus 1. 2 being that there are only two states (binary 1 and 0), and N being the bit resolution. 2^8 = 256, then subtract 1 due to not being able to express $100(decimal 256) in 8 bit format, and you have the 0-255 range.
I think he said 0 to 5.0 volts is divided by 256 counts, expressed as 0 to 255 because computers count from 0.

Haven't tried to figure out the other one yet...

[RobertISaar]

correct, Mark.

[EagleMark]

:jfj: woo hoo, I'm up to Geek...

Long way to catch up to uber nerd... :thumbsup:

[dyeager535]

Does anyone happen to know the specs on that sender Mark turned down and rethreaded?

Real question is if they will work with the older GM gauges and ECM's? 0-90 ohms I believe is the resistance specs for the fuel, coolant temp, and oil pressure gauges, at least on my 80's truck stuff. I would prefer not to have more parts laying around I can't use. I have a whole box of new Delco parts I bought on ebay for just a couple pieces. I probably should dig it out to see if I have this sensor in there already!

How about the connector part #? I had no luck finding the pigtail. I found the year interchange for this sender (mostly 3.1 and 3.8's for a wide range of years) but could find no connectors. Normally I say wrecking yards, I've yet to find reasonably priced pre-made connectors. I've seen the connectors with wiring ends go for more than the sensor itself.

Somewhere (LS1.com?) I found a post where someone retrofit an LS1 into a 1968 vette and had some problems with the coolant sensor not working with the stock gauge, which is what led me to question the resistance values. It seems odd they didn't use it in more applications. Then again it may cover all the 3.1/3.8's, which was a fairly large swath of vehicles.

[EagleMark]

This site has a ton of pigtails but not real cheap, here's the three terminal oil temp plug and pigtail which may be same as coolant temp?
http://www.eficonnection.com/eficonnection/ItemDetails.aspx?ItemId=814

mouser is cheapest but be prepared to spend hours looking.

If I don't have good plugs from all the harness that I have I do a Pick and Save trip and come home with a box full...

Don't know about gauges?

[dyeager535]

Here's the Echlin catalog I couldn't find before for some reason: http://www.napaechlin.com/upload/NAPAEchlin2/Documents/ECH_NA141_HQr.pdf

Cross the part number referenced before, comes up with Echlin PN TS4020, which on page 991 states "2752Ω @77°F w/20% Tol between terminal 1& 2, 2464Ω @77°F w/20% Tol on terminal 3, 3/8 x 18.

Stock CTS for an '88 Camaro TS4052 2 circuit pins N/C – 2786Ω @77°F 3/8 x 18 NPT

Stock guage sender for the truck is 2155–2771Ω @77°F, C@100°F 1425Ω w/7% Tol, O@220°F 147Ω w/15% Tol 3/8 x 18 NPTF

Open/closed should be meaningless, it's a sender, not a switch.

Does it appear to others that the ECM portion and the gauge portions of TS4020 will work for retrofit?

[phonedawgz]

For what it's worth. The standard GM gauge thermistor uses a different profile (look up) vs the standard GM ECT. This is the GM gauge thermistor profile.

2336

[dyeager535]

So can anyone answer why the gauge sender specs are WAY off what that chart shows? Supposedly the one I reference above is for my truck, which is using 80's style gauges.

Not going to keep replying, will just add/edit info here. AC Delco part number for three wire CTS in this thread is 213-815. Applications for fellow junk yard scroungers (taken from the ACD site):
BUICK(45)1994-2002


(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
CENTURY(10)1994-2002






(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
2002 V6-189ci 3.1L F/I Vin J







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
2001 V6-189ci 3.1L F/I Vin J







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
2000 V6-189ci 3.1L F/I Vin J







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1999 V6-189ci 3.1L F/I Vin M







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1998 V6-189ci 3.1L F/I Vin M







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1997 V6-189ci 3.1L F/I Vin M







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1996 L4-134ci 2.2L F/I Vin 4







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1996 V6-189ci 3.1L F/I Vin M







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1995 L4-134ci 2.2L F/I Vin 4







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1994 L4-134ci 2.2L F/I Vin 4








(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
LESABRE(4)1996-1999






(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1999 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1998 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1997 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1996 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K








(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
PARK AVENUE(6)1995-1999






(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1999 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I S/C Vin 1







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1999 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1998 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1997 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1996 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1995 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K








(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
PARK AVENUE ULTRA(3)1996-1998






(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1998 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I S/C Vin 1 (ULTRA)







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1997 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I S/C Vin 1 (ULTRA)







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1996 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I S/C Vin 1 (ULTRA)








(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
REGAL(13)1996-2002






(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
2002 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I S/C Vin 1 (GS)







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
2002 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K (LS)







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
2001 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I S/C Vin 1 (GS)







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
2001 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K (LS)







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
2000 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
2000 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I S/C Vin 1







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1999 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I S/C Vin 1







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1999 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1998 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K (LS)







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1997 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K (LS)







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1997 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I S/C Vin 1 (GS)







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1996 V6-189ci 3.1L F/I Vin M







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1996 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K








(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
REGAL GS(1)1998-1998






(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1998 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I S/C Vin 1 (GS)








(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
RIVIERA(7)1995-1999






(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1999 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I S/C Vin 1







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1998 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I S/C Vin 1







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1997 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1997 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I S/C Vin 1







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1996 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1996 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I S/C Vin 1







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1995 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K








(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
SKYLARK(1)1996-1996






(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1996 V6-189ci 3.1L F/I Vin M








(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
CHEVROLET(40)1992-2001





(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
BERETTA(4)1994-1996






(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1996 L4-134ci 2.2L F/I Vin 4







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1996 V6-189ci 3.1L F/I Vin M







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1995 L4-134ci 2.2L F/I Vin 4







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1994 L4-134ci 2.2L F/I Vin 4








(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
CAMARO(5)1995-1999






(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1999 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1998 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1997 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1996 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1995 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K








(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
CAVALIER(3)1992-1994






(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1994 L4-134ci 2.2L F/I Vin 4







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1993 L4-134ci 2.2L F/I Vin 4







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1992 L4-134ci 2.2L F/I Vin 4








(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
CORSICA(4)1994-1996






(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1996 L4-134ci 2.2L F/I Vin 4







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1996 V6-189ci 3.1L F/I Vin M







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1995 L4-134ci 2.2L F/I Vin 4







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1994 L4-134ci 2.2L F/I Vin 4








(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
LLV (POSTAL VEHICLE)(2)1994-1995






(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1995 L4-134ci 2.2L F/I Vin 4







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1994 L4-134ci 2.2L F/I Vin 4








(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
LUMINA(7)1996-2001






(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
2001 V6-189ci 3.1L F/I Vin J







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
2000 V6-189ci 3.1L F/I Vin J







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1999 V6-189ci 3.1L F/I Vin M







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1999 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1998 V6-189ci 3.1L F/I Vin M







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1997 V6-189ci 3.1L F/I Vin M







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1996 V6-189ci 3.1L F/I Vin M








(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
LUMINA APV(1)1996-1996






(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1996 V6-207ci 3.4L F/I Vin E








(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
LUMINA LTZ(1)1998-1998






(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1998 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K








(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
MONTE CARLO(5)1996-1999






(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1999 V6-189ci 3.1L F/I Vin M







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1999 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1998 V6-189ci 3.1L F/I Vin M







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1997 V6-189ci 3.1L F/I Vin M







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1996 V6-189ci 3.1L F/I Vin M








(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
MONTE CARLO Z34(1)1998-1998






(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1998 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K (Z34)








(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
PICKUP S10/T10(4)1994-1997






(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1997 L4-134ci 2.2L F/I Vin 4







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1996 L4-134ci 2.2L F/I Vin 4







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1995 L4-134ci 2.2L F/I Vin 4







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1994 L4-134ci 2.2L F/I Vin 4








(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
VENTURE(3)1997-1999






(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1999 V6-207ci 3.4L F/I Vin E







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1998 V6-207ci 3.4L F/I Vin E







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1997 V6-207ci 3.4L F/I Vin E









(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
CHEVY MD TRK(8)1991-1998





(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
B6P042(1)1991-1991






(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1991 V8-366ci 6.0L F/I Vin GM








(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
B7T042(3)1993-1995






(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1995 V8-366ci 6.0L F/I Vin GM







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1994 V8-366ci 6.0L F/I Vin GM







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1993 V8-366ci 6.0L F/I Vin GM








(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
F6B042(2)1997-1998






(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1998 V8-366ci 6.0L F/I Vin GM







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1997 V8-366ci 6.0L F/I Vin GM








(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
F7B042(2)1997-1998






(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1998 V8-366ci 6.0L F/I Vin GM







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1997 V8-366ci 6.0L F/I Vin GM









(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
GMC(4)1994-1997





(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
PICKUP SONOMA (S15/T15)(4)1994-1997






(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1997 L4-134ci 2.2L F/I Vin 4







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1996 L4-134ci 2.2L F/I Vin 4







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1995 L4-134ci 2.2L F/I Vin 4







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1994 L4-134ci 2.2L F/I Vin 4









(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
GMC MD TRK(8)1991-1998





(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
B6000 B6P SCHOOL BUS(1)1991-1991






(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1991 V8-366ci 6.0L F/I Vin GM








(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
B7 SERIES SCHOOL BUS(3)1993-1995






(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1995 V8-366ci 6.0L F/I Vin GM







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1994 V8-366ci 6.0L F/I Vin GM







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1993 V8-366ci 6.0L F/I Vin GM








(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
F6(2)1997-1998






(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1998 V8-366ci 6.0L F/I Vin GM







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1997 V8-366ci 6.0L F/I Vin GM








(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
F7(2)1997-1998






(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1998 V8-366ci 6.0L F/I Vin GM







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1997 V8-366ci 6.0L F/I Vin GM









(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
OLDSMOBILE(30)1994-1999





(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
ACHIEVA(1)1996-1996






(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1996 V6-189ci 3.1L F/I Vin M








(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
CUTLASS CIERA(4)1994-1996






(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1996 L4-134ci 2.2L F/I Vin 4







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1996 V6-189ci 3.1L F/I Vin M







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1995 L4-134ci 2.2L F/I Vin 4







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1994 L4-134ci 2.2L F/I Vin 4








(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
CUTLASS SUPREME(2)1996-1997






(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1997 V6-189ci 3.1L F/I Vin M







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1996 V6-189ci 3.1L F/I Vin M








(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
DELTA 88(1)1999-1999






(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1999 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K








(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
EIGHTY-EIGHT(3)1996-1998






(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1998 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1997 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1996 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K








(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
EIGHTY-EIGHT LSS(2)1996-1996






(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1996 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1996 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I S/C Vin 1








(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
EIGHTY-EIGHT ROYALE(1)1995-1995






(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1995 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K








(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
INTRIGUE(2)1998-1999






(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1999 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1998 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K








(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
LSS(6)1997-1999






(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1999 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I S/C Vin 1







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1999 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1998 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1998 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I S/C Vin 1







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1997 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1997 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I S/C Vin 1








(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
NINETY-EIGHT REGENCY(2)1995-1996






(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1996 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1995 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K








(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
REGENCY(2)1997-1998






(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1998 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1997 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K








(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
SILHOUETTE (OLDS)(4)1996-1999






(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1999 V6-207ci 3.4L F/I Vin E







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1998 V6-207ci 3.4L F/I Vin E







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1997 V6-207ci 3.4L F/I Vin E







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1996 V6-207ci 3.4L F/I Vin E









(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
PONTIAC(44)1992-2003





(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
BONNEVILLE(5)1997-1999






(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1999 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I S/C Vin 1







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1999 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1998 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1997 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1997 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I S/C Vin 1








(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
BONNEVILLE SE(2)1995-1996






(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1996 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K







(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1995 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K








(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
BONNEVILLE SSE(1)1996-1996






(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1996 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I S/C Vin 1








(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
BONNEVILLE SSEi(1)1998-1998






(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1998 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I S/C Vin 1








(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
FIREBIRD(5)1995-1999






(http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=213-815&catalog=5570&parttype=3139#)
1999 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K







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1998 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K







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1997 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K







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1996 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K







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1995 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K








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GRAND AM(1)1996-1996






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1996 V6-189ci 3.1L F/I Vin M








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GRAND PRIX(19)1996-2003






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2003 V6-189ci 3.1L F/I Vin J







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2003 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K







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2003 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I S/C Vin 1







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2002 V6-189ci 3.1L F/I Vin J







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2002 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I S/C Vin 1







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2002 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K







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2001 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K







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2001 V6-189ci 3.1L F/I Vin J







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2000 V6-189ci 3.1L F/I Vin J







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2000 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K







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1999 V6-189ci 3.1L F/I Vin M







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1999 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I S/C Vin 1







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1999 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K







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1998 V6-189ci 3.1L F/I Vin M







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1998 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K







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1997 V6-189ci 3.1L F/I Vin M







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1997 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin K







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1997 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I S/C Vin 1







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1996 V6-189ci 3.1L F/I Vin M








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GRAND PRIX GTP(3)1998-2001






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2001 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I S/C Vin 1







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2000 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I S/C Vin 1







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1998 V6-231ci 3.8L F/I S/C Vin 1








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MONTANA(1)1999-1999






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1999 V6-207ci 3.4L F/I Vin E








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SUNBIRD(3)1992-1994






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1994 L4-122ci 2.0L F/I Vin H







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1993 L4-122ci 2.0L F/I Vin H







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1992 L4-122ci 2.0L F/I Vin H








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TRANS SPORT(3)1996-1998






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1998 V6-207ci 3.4L F/I Vin E







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1997 V6-207ci 3.4L F/I Vin E







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1996 V6-207ci 3.4L F/I Vin E

[dyeager535]

Yes I did! :rockon:

http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/attachment.php?attachmentid=1986&stc=1&d=1331698208

An update on this. Found one of these sensors. Tried to test it with the stock gauge in the radiator fill neck, but tests were inconclusive. Although I did successfully test what happens when you shut the engine down with the radiator cap off. :rolleye:

I then proceeded to replicate what you did Mark. Didn't cut it down quite to .5" to start cutting threads, but the die started. Got to the base of the sensor (against the wrench flat portion) and started to back the die off. Sensor broke in half right there.

~1.05" from the sensor tip, the "wall" of the sensor housing thins way down. Towards the tip the housing thickness including cut threads, is .12". The wall thickness, including threads, up against the wrench flats is .073". Barely the thickness of the threads themselves. Glad I figured this out now, would have been frustrating to have it break while threading it in.

In other words, if anyone wondered why the CTS aren't threaded all the way to the wrench flats from the factory, now you know. I would highly advise anyone attempting this to not cut threads too far "up" the sensor. Safe would be .75" including the tip. If the portion above the threads was left the normal diameter, a washer might be usable/necessary to squeeze the drain plug seal enough.

The internals are quite complex on those sensors by the way. Surprised they can be had for ~$12.

I grabbed a two wire, I will try on it. The two wire sensor is shorter in the brass section than the three wire however, so getting enough threads to engage is going to be tough. I couldn't find any single wire units to play with.

Got a nice (looking) 1227727 for $40 this weekend though, including plugs. Found a couple more at another yard, wasn't willing to pay $70/each for them though. Prepping the senders for eventual use with this. Also going to do some research and see if I can get the VSS/radio volume control of it integrated into the early 80's style Delco radio my truck has...

[EagleMark]

Although I did successfully test what happens when you shut the engine down with the radiator cap off. :rolleye:

I've done that test too! I hate when that happens... :laugh:

The rest is not good news though! Guess it better to have happened to you then someone trying this and finding it break off while in oil pan! So best way is going to be a stock sensor and another fitting, just like the Corvette did.

[dyeager535]

With the nose as long as it is, anyone aware of any adapters in 1/2" that will thread into the pan, and allow you to screw the sensor to it? All I can find are 1/2" NPT, but that obviously won't work. 1/2" to 9/16" would require less thread cutting on the sender. Not sure if there was enough diameter to cut them to 5/8" or not.

[dyeager535]

So I've got a two wire CTS turned down and tapped/threaded. Looking to probably change the oil soon. Not sure the sender is going to work (tapping went pretty poorly) but willing to try it.

Resistance specs are here: http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?669-Oil-temp-measuring&p=6888&viewfull=1#post6888

How much effort is it to get the 1227165/6E/APYP to "read" another CTS? Is it even possible?

I did a bit of research, but prior to 1990 it doesn't appear the F or Y body used an oil temp sender, so it appears there is no extra position that the wires can just be run to, must be some code changing required, if it's not a physical limitation?

Eventually I'll convert to the '730/727, which had oil temp in some apps, but if it's fairly easy to accomodate with the '165, I could at least report back what happens if someone can help out with the "code" portion of adding it to the '165.

[RobertISaar]

the 7165 appears to have 11 A/D channels...



ch# pin Function
0 D8 MAP2(51K to Gnd)
1 A6 IGNVOLT
2 D7 O2VOLT
3 C11 MAP(51K to Gnd)
4 C10 CTS(348/4K to 5V)
5 C13 TPS(220K to Gnd)
6 B2 PUMPVOLT
7 A9 DIAG(10K to 5V)
8 C12 MAT(1K to 5V)
9 B11 ESC(externally filtered)
10 B12 MAFVOLTS(1K to 5V)


as you can see.... not a lot to work with.

if you want to open the ECM up, then i assume D8 at the very least won't be used in many if any applications from the factory, you could remove the 51K resistor and put either a 348 or 4K ohm resistor on the sample circuit with the other end connected to 5V and have to only patch the code to read channel 0 every once in a while and apply the 348 or 4K normalization table used for the CTS on it and it will create a linear output, save it to a free RAM location, point the ALDL stream to use it and then you've got it.

[dyeager535]

So this will actually be a physical endeavor.

I think this may have to wait until I go to the '727. :(

[RobertISaar]

unless you send it out to somebody who's willing to mod it..... i've done it ~5 times on a 16149396 to make more useful channels.

as long as you pay for shipping here and back, i would do it for a couple bucks.

that's assuming you can afford to have it down for the ~week or so it would take to ship.

[dyeager535]

I appreciate the offer. Unfortunately funds of all types have pretty much dried up for me recently, at least in the near term.

Luckily I got most of the '727 conversion stuff already, hopefully I can do that for no additional cost. If I get the '727 going, I can sell off the '165 stuff to help make ends meet. "Luckily" I have some spare MAF stuff I can sell, if anyone even wants it anymore!

The '727 conversion is just going to take awhile to complete. I need the truck running in the meantime, so I'll have to wait until I've got a good block of time to start that swap. Was why I was hoping there was some software way to get the '165 working for the OTS. Oh well. I have a sneaking suspicion its going to leak anyway, but I will have to remember to test it as a drain plug when I dump the first quart in.

[RobertISaar]

the 7727 has a bunch of unused MAT style inputs, so you'll just need to use the MAT conversion table and it's pretty much plug and play.

[RobertISaar]

a thought occurs......

are you using the voltage based MAF or a frequency based one?

if you're using the frequency MAF, then channel 10 would actually work for you as-is, just need to use the MAT normalization table.

[dyeager535]

Sory, didn't see the reply before!

I'm assuming it's voltage based...I've not messed around with anything else, it's an '88 MAF AFAIK....in the .bin the tables are based on voltage, so that's where I get my assumption. Right or wrong?



a thought occurs......

are you using the voltage based MAF or a frequency based one?

if you're using the frequency MAF, then channel 10 would actually work for you as-is, just need to use the MAT normalization table.

[RobertISaar]

i know next to nothing about the early MAF stuff. i know some were low frequency, others were just an analog voltage.

which pin is it connected to on the ECM?

[dyeager535]

B12. Looks like that unfortunately kills that great idea, eh?

I really just need to swap it over to the '7727. :)

[RobertISaar]

yeah..... that would have opened up a nice option. oh well.

here is what the 7727/7730 style inputs look like with 7727/A1 pin descriptions. other masks will be similar:



Ch0 A/C Pressure pin C21 (51K to G)
Ch1 Ignition +12V pin B10 (N/A)
Ch2 O2 pin A16 (N/A)
Ch3 MAP pin C22 (51K to G)
Ch4 Coolant Temp pin C16 (348/4K to 5V)
Ch5 TPS pin C15 (220K to G)
Ch6 Fuel Pump Voltage pin A20 (N/A)
Ch7 ALDL Diagnostic Pin B pin B3 (10K to 5V)
Ch8 MAT pin C4 (1K to 5V)
Ch9 Mux Channel pin XXX (N/A)
Ch10 ------- pin B9 (10K to 5V)
Mux Analog:
Ch0 EVRV EGR Position pin C18 (220K to G)
Ch1 Coolant Level pin C14 (348 to 5V)
Ch2 ------- pin C19 (2K to 5V)
Ch3 Knock pin A11 (100/4.02K to 5V)
Ch4 ------- pin A14 (1K to 5V)
Ch5 ------- pin A5 (1K to 5V)
Ch6 ------- pin XXX (N/A)
Ch7 ------- pin A15 (???) seems to be missing components for amplifcation


as you can see, there are 16 available pins to use, with a lot of pullups.

[dyeager535]

Just to make sure I understand....since the '7727 was used in some applications with oil temperature sender, with the proper mask/bin there will be nothing more needed than to hook a wire up to the correct ECM connector pin based on how that vehicle (in this case a Corvette) was wired? Essentially plug and play?

[RobertISaar]

should be. might have to enable an option bit too, but i wouldn't expect anything more than that.

[dyeager535]

Well, wish the swap wasn't quite so involved or I'd do it right away. My next excuse will be that it's too cold. :)

[dyeager535]

3306


Not a great photo, but mocked it up with a couple of quarts of oil behind it, no leaks at that time. Didn't start/run it, have to take a long trip and not entirely trusting of the seal I'm getting since I don't have a square shoulder on this sender to clamp the gasket good.

Besides, it's the single wire sensor, I want to get a three wire in there. Friend with the lathe is going to be out of town for awhile. Eventually I may just try and see what it looks like on the gauge, but will want the logging capability.

BTW, looked into the original Corvette oil temp sender, at $53 for the cheapies, no thanks. It's 1/4-18 (NPT) threaded, so they DO make 1/2-20 adapters that would just thread in, if someone really wanted to do so. But the oil temp sender is very long and thin, not good for being in the pan long term IMO.