1992 P30 7.4 / 4L80E M.H. Chassis

[dktool]

This vehicle is bone stock original, it has a dead band around 60 - 70% throttle that I have been chasing. The following statement is what I have found as the cause, any input on obtaining a chip or complete ecm that does not have this trait would be appreciated; "After a long delay, I finally took a 2 hour trip with my laptop on the dash in gauge mode running TunerPro V5, what I observed confirmed that the dead band is indeed a result of spark advance being pulled, BUT....... It is not a result of knock count, which over the course of a 2 hour drive at freeway speed including a few pulls up grades, the total knock count only increased by single digits. Here is where the problem lies; Contrary to common knowledge on how an egr system would work to cool combustion chamber temps under hard load, what this ecm does is that past a certain percent of throttle opening,(55-65) modulation of the egr goes to zero (no egr) and at that exact time the timing advance drops from, depending on load, from 25 to 30 to as low as 12 degrees. Now, how can an engine spinning at 3200 rpm at 80 to 90 percent throttle opening make any horse power and torque with 12 degrees of total btdc advance, answer it can't ! I could pedal the throttle and watch the egr and advance toggle on / off, up / down and feel the power follow suite. So, with the new insight, it would appear the only cure would be to have an ecm the didn't have this way over the top engine protection function.

[dave w]

One experiment would be to disable the EGR in the chip programming and try to replicate the dead band. If deleting the EGR solves the dead band, then re-enabling the EGR and experimenting with the EGR tables might be the long term solution. dave w

[dktool]

One experiment would be to disable the EGR in the chip programming and try to replicate the dead band. If deleting the EGR solves the dead band, then re-enabling the EGR and experimenting with the EGR tables might be the long term solution. dave w I assumed that a re-program of the EGR function would be needed. Can the chip be sent to someone to burn a copy of it and modify the ERG table ?

[dave w]

In the long run, burning your own chips offers the best solution..........A Burn 2 chip programmer from Moates.net http://www.moates.net/burn2-chip-programmer-p-197.html?cPath=64 A G1 Adapter Board http://www.moates.net/g1-memory-adapter-tpi-etc-p-32.html?cPath=64 a chip http://www.moates.net/c2-sst-27sf512-chip-p-39.html?cPath=26 will be the nuts and bolts needed for burning you own chips........An optional quick release chip socket (ZIF - Zero Insertion Force) http://www.moates.net/s4-aries-28pin-lowprofile-zif-p-46.html?cPath=26 is nice but not necessary......The learning curve is steep to burn your own chips? dave w

[dktool]

The learning curve is steep to burn your own chips? This is what I was afraid of.

[uncabob]

This is what I was afraid of.Don't let Yoda (Dave) scare you. I think he asked a question. You are already way up the learning curve. I was able to burn chips within a couple of days after getting an Autoprom from Moates. The real trick is knowing what, why, and how to change the data. Stick your toe in, the water isn't as cold as it looks. Bob

[dktool]

Don't let Yoda (Dave) scare you. I think he asked a question. You are already way up the learning curve. I was able to burn chips within a couple of days after getting an Autoprom from Moates. The real trick is knowing what, why, and how to change the data. Stick your toe in, the water isn't as cold as it looks. Bob I do feel capable enough from the PC, mechanical and the logic side of it, I have written and done PLC programming for machine tools so in a lot of ways as you say, I am already way up the learning curve, but my main area of concern is exactly as you stated, "The real trick is knowing what, why, and how to change the data." Just finding a ADX file that would communicate with the TP software was a challenge as my ecm number was not shown on Moates support page and another source did not show it either. I first tried one that Moates suggested via email and it did not work so after reading a lot on this board and find some of Eagle Mark's ( R.I.P.) posts I tried the $85 file and it worked, it even had his name referenced in some of the sub tabs / edit windows. It was suggested that my ecm was a replacement unit, I know the history of this vehicle and am confident it has never been touched, it is: 16175071 I have not removed it to see what the prom or calpak(?) numbers are. Can the Burn 2 unit simply make an exact copy of my current chip then I can cut my teeth on that one trying to change the data ?

[dave w]

Can the Burn 2 unit simply make an exact copy of my current chip then I can cut my teeth on that one trying to change the data ? Yes... http://support.moates.net/beginners-programming-chips/ ....The 27SF512 chip that Moates.net sells is 64K in size. $85 is 32K in size. You will need to use an "Offset" for the Burn 2 http://support.moates.net/programming-chips-using-offsets/ It's hexadecimal 32K = 7FFF and 64K = FFFF. dave w

[dktool]

Yes... http://support.moates.net/beginners-programming-chips/ ....The 27SF512 chip that Moates.net sells is 64K in size. $85 is 32K in size. You will need to use an "Offset" for the Burn 2 http://support.moates.net/programming-chips-using-offsets/ It's hexadecimal 32K = 7FFF and 64K = FFFF. dave w I read those links, so far so simple. (haha) So the $85 file I have on my laptop contains all the operating perimeters for the ecm and I don't need to burn an image of my current prom ? Will I also need the bin or any other file or only the adx ? Then there is the question of instruction for finding the egr table and disabling it to prove the problem. Then, how to modify the trip point to something like cutting the modulation to a near zero percentage at the dead band trip point in hopes it won't pull the advance back with it. Also, I have no experience with the hexadecimal language so that also needs to be learned ! I have made my career by being self taught so if it's doable with only "virtual" teachers then, I'm in.

[myburb]

If it were me I would copy the chip you have in it now and use that as your starting point as that bin might have MH transmission settings that are different than bins you might gather from pickups or suburbans.

[dktool]

If it were me I would copy the chip you have in it now and use that as your starting point as that bin might have MH transmission settings that are different than bins you might gather from pickups or suburbans. That was my thought too, I'm sure it has other functions that are not present in the smaller truck models such as gear ratio, decel speed fuel cut etc. This thing starts, runs and shifts like a swiss watch, it's just this one thing that make an already de-tuned Mark 5 emissions engine feel like dog, but only at that one point, through out the power band up to that, it pulls good. The fact that it is a P30 (P37) M.H. chassis is more than likely why it has this funky program. In all the searches I have done, the only ones that came up with this dead band comment were in RVs.

[dave w]

Then, how to modify the trip point to something like cutting the modulation to a near zero percentage at the dead band trip point in hopes it won't pull the advance back with it. Also, I have no experience with the hexadecimal language so that also needs to be learned ! I have made my career by being self taught so if it's doable with only "virtual" teachers then, I'm in. The Hexadecimal information is for using Offset and for actual binary coding of the .bin file location / address (advanced class student stuff) The beginner can do very well without ever having to use Hexadecimal coding in the .bin file! Understanding Hexadecimal file size is needed for burning a chip with "offsets"..... Attached are some screen shots of the $85 transmission parameters and tables. I also included a screen shot of the Hexadecimal location in the .bin for $85, which is not necessary to know as a beginner! dave w

[dktool]

So, to be clear...... with the Burn 2, I would remove my prom, put it in the Burn 2, copy the image to my pc, remove the prom, put a new blank one in and upload / burn the saved image from my pc to the new chip. Is this correct ? Also, what is the function of the "calpack" module ? I see that the Moates chip adapter consumes the space where the calpack is.

[dave w]

Your $85 computer uses a Memcal, see my previous pics. Attached is a Memcal pic without the blue cover, showing the soldered in chip and knock filter board. To read the PROM chip from a Memcal I use the Moates.net HDR1 header http://www.moates.net/hdr1-memcal-header-p-52.html?cPath=64 which plugs into the Memcal so the Burn 2 can read the PROM chip.... Just a note, learn where the #1 pin is on a chip!!! http://www.evilmadscientist.com/2010/basics-finding-pin-1/ dave w

[dktool]

Your $85 computer uses a Memcal, see my previous pics. Attached is a Memcal pic without the blue cover, showing the soldered in chip and knock filter board. To read the PROM chip from a Memcal I use the Moates.net HDR1 header http://www.moates.net/hdr1-memcal-header-p-52.html?cPath=64 which plugs into the Memcal so the Burn 2 can read the PROM chip.... Just a note, learn where the #1 pin is on a chip!!! http://www.evilmadscientist.com/2010/basics-finding-pin-1/ dave w Just as I was starting to see some clarity it looks like the fog is rolling in ! So now I am reading the prom via the Memcal ? How can the Burn 2 unit connect to the Memcal via the memcal header if it is still in the ecm and the Burn 2 is configured to except a prom chip ? So confused......... :) Edit: After some searching, some clarity is coming back, I think ! Here's my take; The Mencal board containing the prom is removed from the ecm, the board plugs into the Mencal Header which in turn plugs into the Burn 2, is this correct ? Why not just remove the prom chip and copy it ?

[dave w]

Edit: After some searching, some clarity is coming back, I think ! Here's my take; The Mencal board containing the prom is removed from the ecm, the board plugs into the Mencal Header which in turn plugs into the Burn 2, is this correct ?....Correct .....
Why not just remove the prom chip and copy it ? The PROM Chip is Soldered into the Memcal, which is nearly impossible to successfully remove.... The HDR1 header is a tool for the PROM "tool box" that does not get used very often.

[dktool]

....Correct ..... The PROM Chip is Soldered into the Memcal, which is nearly impossible to successfully remove.... The HDR1 header is a tool for the PROM "tool box" that does not get used very often. OK, so the Memcal get reinstalled in the ecm after being copied and then there is still space and connections for the G1 Adapter Board and new chip to plug in, and this also acts to bypass the original prom ?

[lionelhutz]

Other way around. The adapter goes in first and then the memcal plugs into the adapter.

[dave w]

OK, so the Memcal get reinstalled in the ecm after being copied and then there is still space and connections for the G1 Adapter Board and new chip to plug in, and this also acts to bypass the original prom ? http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?6142-1992-P30-7-4-4L80E-M-H-Chassis ...post #4 shows pictures of the Memcal plugged into the G1. Then the G1 / Memcal assembly installed into the ECM. dave w

[dave w]

More Pics ... Burn 2 / Memcal / HDR1 ... The blue cover was removed from the Memcal to show where the PROM Chip is in the Memcal. Removing the blue cover is not necessary to read the chip. dave w

[dktool]

I am going to purchase the Burn2, G2 Adapter, Memcal Header and a couple chips and also download Flash & Burn. Am I missing anything ? All this info and these items are great so far, the main question now is how do I, or who can "learn me" on finding and editing the tables I need to change to experiment with this ERG / TIMING issue ?

[myburb]

Dont forget the zif socket, you will be glad you did and one of the first mistakes I made was just getting a couple of chips, get a 10 pack, you will find use for them.

[dktool]

Dont forget the zif socket, you will be glad you did and one of the first mistakes I made was just getting a couple of chips, get a 10 pack, you will find use for them. Dave W recommended the S4 zif socket, would the S4 be a better choice ? Looks to be much more durable. Edit on prior post: I will buy the G1 adapter not the G2

[dave w]

Dave W recommended the S4 zif socket, would the S4 be a better choice ? Looks to be much more durable. Edit on prior post: I will buy the G1 adapter not the G2I like the low profile of the S4, because the chip access cover can be put back on the computer. The S2 is admittedly a better ZIF, but is taller and won't allow the chip access cover to be but back on the computer. I think two chips is enough. dave w

[dktool]

I like the low profile of the S4, because the chip access cover can be put back on the computer. The S2 is admittedly a better ZIF, but is taller and won't allow the chip access cover to be but back on the computer. I think two chips is enough. dave w Thanks for the clarification Dave. Do you have any input on my "learn me" question in post #21 ?

[dave w]

it might be a good plan to look at $85 .xdf and .bin file to study the parameters. That is what I did years ago. I'll be very blunt and strait to the point, homework / homework and even more homework. Make a simple change to the .bin and see what happens to the data log. Straight up, no BS... trail and error and then more trial and error to get the engine running correctly. Straight up, ask a specific question on a parameter, and learn from the input gearhead-efii members reply... for example what if the injector flow is changed from 61 lbs /hr to to 58 lbs/ hr...sure enough the entire fuel table will make every cell in the VE add fuel. What if the EGR needs to be disabled...well set the EGR enable temperature to 151C or set the EGR enable speed to 255 MPH. Straight up / no magic the team that designed the .bin file use Math and Logic...add fuel / subtract fuel ... add timing / subtract timing ... enable / disable logic. The phrase a lion can kill an elephant...one bite at a time. Focus... one parameter at a time! dave w

[dktool]

it might be a good plan to look at $85 .xdf and .bin file to study the parameters. That is what I did years ago. I'll be very blunt and strait to the point, homework / homework and even more homework. Make a simple change to the .bin and see what happens to the data log. Straight up, no BS... trail and error The phrase a lion can kill an elephant...one bite at a time. Focus... one parameter at a time! dave w I get the "one bit at a time" that is how I approach troubleshooting etc. in all things, and to learn by asking. So I will ask;......Once I copy my chip, I will be able to open, view and get acquainted with all parameters tables through the TP software only ?

[dave w]

Once I copy my chip, I will be able to open, view and get acquainted with all parameters tables through the TP software only ? ...Correct ... TunerPro is not the only .bin file editor. There is the option of using TunerCats ( http://www.tunercat.com/tnr_desc/tnr_desc.html ) as a .bin file editor. ... I originally started with TunerCats. TunerCats is not freeware you will need to purchase TunerCats and the $85 definition file ( http://www.tunercat.com/pdfs/pcm_$85.pdf )... TunerPro has greatly improved over the years and is now my primary OBD1 software. TunerPro RT ( a suggested $39 donation ) can be used as .bin file editor and data log. TunerCats does not data log. ... dave w

[dktool]

I bought myself the following last minute Christmas gift; 1 x HDR1 Memcal Header (HDR1) = $10.00 1 x S4 Aries 28-pin Low-Profile ZIF (S4) = $7.00 2 x C2 SST 27SF512 Chip (C2) = $10.00 1 x G1 Memory Adapter: TPI ETC. (G1) = $35.00 1 x 'BURN2 Chip Programmer' (BURN2) = $85.00

[dave w]

I bought myself the following last minute Christmas gift; 1 x HDR1 Memcal Header (HDR1) = $10.00 1 x S4 Aries 28-pin Low-Profile ZIF (S4) = $7.00 2 x C2 SST 27SF512 Chip (C2) = $10.00 1 x G1 Memory Adapter: TPI ETC. (G1) = $35.00 1 x 'BURN2 Chip Programmer' (BURN2) = $85.00 Money well spent, knowledge learned ... priceless! ... dave w

[dktool]

My supplies from Moates arrived today, I removed the PCM, pulled the Memcal and made my first attempt at copying it. Question, do any offsets need to be specified in Flash N Burn to copy the memcal to the buffer to be able to save it as a file on the PC or only when burning the buffer to the chip ? When I copy it, the file shows 1 byte ?? All the instructions on Moates are very clear but I couldn't find anything regarding copying the memcal, only how to upload the saved file to buffer, then buffer to chip, then check chip against buffer to confirm complete burn.

[dave w]

What chip type did you select? 27C256 (Read Only)? Buffer size address 00000 -> 007FFF? Save Buffer to file for saving, should get a window to select a file name for the file you want to save and a location where to save the file. ... dave w

[dktool]

What chip type did you select? 27C256 (Read Only)? Buffer size address 00000 -> 007FFF? Save Buffer to file for saving, should get a window to select a file name for the file you want to save and a location where to save the file. ... dave w I did not find any instruction referencing this setting ^^^ for reading the memcal, and how would one know which chip type to select ? If it's on the Moates site please link it too me so I verify that I'm blind in one eye and can't see out the other. Now I will plug the burned chip into the PCM and see if it starts normally, previous attempt resulted in a limp mode start.

[dave w]

You installed the Burn 2 driver ( http://www.moates.net/usb-driver-p-215.html?cPath=78 ) with the Burn 2 USB cable plugged into the Laptop? I usually run the driver install "CDM20824_Setup.exe" file directly from the website to install the driver. Sometimes I have to run the driver install twice, I don't know why. .... I find chip information at this website ( http://www.exatorq.com/ludis_obd1/p4xref.html ). I also find chip information at TunerCats ( http://tunercat.com/ ) " ECM Definition Files " ... dave w

[dktool]

You installed the Burn 2 driver ( http://www.moates.net/usb-driver-p-215.html?cPath=78 ) with the Burn 2 USB cable plugged into the Laptop? I usually run the driver install "CDM20824_Setup.exe" file directly from the website to install the driver. Sometimes I have to run the driver install twice, I don't know why. .... I find chip information at this website ( http://www.exatorq.com/ludis_obd1/p4xref.html ). I also find chip information at TunerCats ( http://tunercat.com/ ) " ECM Definition Files " ... dave w Update; The Burn2 driver was from the Moates site, that works fine. After selecting the "read only" chip number you referenced I tried another copy of the Memcal, burned the file to a blank chip, plugged it all back into the PCM and it the engine started normally ! So now on to getting up to speed on the parameter lists and learning how / what to edit to test the EGR / TIMING issue.If anyone would like to look at my bin and make suggestions I'm all ears. Thanks for all the help to this point, the water really doesn't feel cold at all now ! Dean

[uncabob]

Update; the water really doesn't feel cold at all now ! DeanGood show Dean. Hang in there. Bob

[dktool]

This table looks strange to me, comments ?

[dave w]

This table looks strange to me, comments ? I usually disable the EGR, things get complicated with timing using the EGR. My 1993 K1500 had the EGR disabled, WA emission ... No Problem! dave w

[dktool]

I usually disable the EGR, things get complicated with timing using the EGR. My 1993 K1500 had the EGR disabled, WA emission ... No Problem! dave w I set the "minimum coolant temp to enable EGR" to 125c to disable it for a test.

[dktool]

I did a test drive with the egr disabled and the dead band is gone. On a full throttle pull up a 7% grade from a stop, there was no knock count increase but the advance is only around 22*, I would like to work on the advance / rpm / load table. Here it is, .............. comments ?

[dave w]

Some tuners would remove timing when the engine is under heavy load (Kpa's equal to or above 80 Kap) / higher RPM's (above 1600) to see what happens? ... That's tuning. ... Some tuners would add timing when the engine is under heavy load (Kpa's equal to or above 80 Kap) / higher RPM's (above 1600) to see what happens? ... That's tuning. ... Timing changes will effect the VE Table, so you will very likely need to correct the VE table after making timing changes. ... That's tuning. ... So now you are a tuner ... congratulations!! You now have FULL THROTTLE ACCESS to your chip!! ... dave w ... From post #5 in this thread ...
This is what I was afraid of. Tuning???

[dktool]

Does that mean I'm ready for this;
(advanced class student stuff) dave w If so, where do I enroll to get schooled on the VE tables and the rest of the fingers that make the hand work, or is it just seat of the pants trial and error to see what fingers get broken and which ones still bend ?

[LRT]

....

[dktool]

You have 3 choices - leave it as it is, retain a professional tuner, or learn to tune this yourself. Learning to tune yourself is an exercise in self-education. This is where many of us began. Your "schooling" may consist of purchasing books / DVDs on the subject, and scouring internet forums for accurate information (shockingly not all information on the internet is accurate). There are formal classes available, but these are expensive, and typically don't cover how to tune OBD-I controllers - as these controllers are obsolete (no offense intended, just the reality of the situation). Guessing that Dave W. has been at this for more than a decade, as have I. Learning to tune takes a lot of time and effort. Some people get good at it, some do not. Some tune for fun, others start a business offering tuning support for a fee. If you decide that you want to learn how to tune, then it is up to you to self-educate. Understood, any pointers to good links for knowledge are appreciated, I will continue to Google-on as I have to this point. Thanks !

[LRT]

....

[dave w]

Does that mean I'm ready for this; If so, where do I enroll to get schooled on the VE tables and the rest of the fingers that make the hand work, or is it just seat of the pants trial and error to see what fingers get broken and which ones still bend ? Not quite advanced class, but definitely INTERMEDIATE level. ... See attached 1227747 TBI ECM screen shots to get an idea of what to look for when tuning (your 16147060 PCM will be similar). BLM's are fuel corrections, used to determine if the engine is running lean / rich. BLM's below 128 are Rich and BLM above 128 are lean. Usually BLM's between 123 ~ 133 are acceptable. ... Adjustments to the Fuel Table (VE table) adding or subtracting fuel is what is changed to correct the BLM to an ideal 128. ... Check out the '7060 information in this gearhead-efi tread, http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?317-16147060-PCM-Information-85 and follow the links in that tread for more information. ... I use Excel spreadsheets to tune with because the data from a data log is very large and Excel is good tool to manage HUGE amounts of data. Open Office (freeware) is another tool available to manage HUGE amounts of data https://www.openoffice.org/ ... dave w

[dktool]

Are those history table on TunerPro ? I haven't found anything like that.

[dave w]

Are those history table on TunerPro ? I haven't found anything like that. TunerPro "RT" (Real Time) suggested $39 donation. dave w

[dktool]

TunerPro "RT" (Real Time) suggested $39 donation. dave w I found the tables. I am using "RT" and have paid for it.