SBC TPI 0411 24X conversioin

[Mikey G]

Hello All,I built a 500hp 383 SBC and put it in a project. in the beginning, it was carburated for simplicity so I could have concentrated on debugging the car. Later I cleaned up the TPI set-up, modified it, replaced all the sensors (map,iac,tps & iac), and installed it. I knew there would be a drop in hp but loved the look of the TPI. I went with the 7730 SD set-up. With the exception of the idle quality, the balance of the tune is pretty good. I have yet to get the cold start-up and idle from being quite rich. I have checked for vacuum leaks. I changed the rotor, cap, wires and plugs. Changed the injectors, had them flow checked and matched. Did a compression and leakdown test. I believe I'm asking too much from the 7730 SD set-up with this cam 242/248 @.050". I have been thinking of doing the 0411 24x conversion. Has anyone had good success with a similar application?Mikey G

[fastacton]

It should be easy to do as long as you can come up with a crank sensor. Just use the distributor from a '96 and up Vortec engine. The 0411 was used on the Vortec 350 engines in the later vans, so you can grab a base tune from one of them to start with.

[Mikey G]

I was actually going to go further and use the LS1 set-up with the Coil On Cyl. I have all the hardware. I have completed my harness as well. I was wondering if someone has had success with dialling in a cold start-up and idle with a "big" cam prior to purchasing all the software (?)

[fastacton]

You'd probably be better off getting your preferred tuning suite first (or getting someone else to flash a starter tune on it). You won't even be able to start a 0411 setup until you've went in and disabled VATS.

[1project2many]

Cold start is one of the toughest things to get right. You absolutely need to make sure the voltage corrections are correct for your injectors. During cranking the system voltage drops and after startup system voltage is higher while the battery recharges. If you have a WBO2 it may be possible to start it and warm it enough to get readings during cranking and startup. It's extremely helpful. It's important to separate cranking from cold running after startup. Fuel delivery during cranking can over-fuel the engine which can cause slightly rich operation after startup to seem overly rich. I like to find a rich and lean "stop" for cranking then work from the area in the middle letting the engine tell me what it likes. Remember to try and be roughly consistent with the starting temp. Without some way to monitor what's happening (I've used an ignition scope to watch firing voltage change, and I've tried a quartz filled spark plug to provide a "window" into the chamber ) it really takes something akin to Zen to devine where to start making changes. If it starts ok hot try starting at cooler and cooler temps to see how it goes. And be patient because you may only get one or two chances in a day to try again.

[Mikey G]

You'd probably be better off getting your preferred tuning suite first (or getting someone else to flash a starter tune on it). You won't even be able to start a 0411 setup until you've went in and disabled VATS.
I had intensions on getting my 0411 re-flashed with the F body (cable drive), and also having the VATS disabled prior to a start-up

[Mikey G]

Cold start is one of the toughest things to get right. You absolutely need to make sure the voltage corrections are correct for your injectors. During cranking the system voltage drops and after startup system voltage is higher while the battery recharges. If you have a WBO2 it may be possible to start it and warm it enough to get readings during cranking and startup. It's extremely helpful. It's important to separate cranking from cold running after startup. Fuel delivery during cranking can over-fuel the engine which can cause slightly rich operation after startup to seem overly rich. I like to find a rich and lean "stop" for cranking then work from the area in the middle letting the engine tell me what it likes. Remember to try and be roughly consistent with the starting temp. Without some way to monitor what's happening (I've used an ignition scope to watch firing voltage change, and I've tried a quartz filled spark plug to provide a "window" into the chamber ) it really takes something akin to Zen to devine where to start making changes. If it starts ok hot try starting at cooler and cooler temps to see how it goes. And be patient because you may only get one or two chances in a day to try again.
I don't currently have a WB02, but is on my list of things to do during the swap over to the 0411. I will certainly keep an eye on the cranking voltage drop. I was considering getting a local tuner in olved with the tune after start up. He is very well know around here and his speciality is 0411 set-ups in many applications. Many LS conversions some around the 600 RWHP range. He said he will have no problems tuning my set-up. But he might be talking through his hat just to get the work. I was hoping to get some sort of confirmation the 0411 is capable - in the right hands.

[dave w]

My daily driver 1999 S-10 has a Bone Stock L31 Vortec 5.7 liter with 24x. See attached pic.

For a starter flash, I modified a 2002 5.3 Liter flash.

dave w

[Mikey G]

My daily driver 1999 S-10 has a Bone Stock L31 Vortec 5.7 liter with 24x. See attached pic.

For a starter flash, I modified a 2002 5.3 Liter flash.

dave w
Very nice install dave w. Looks factory installed. Being bone stock, I'm sure dialing in your tune was not so difficult. I don't think I will have it that easy.

[dave w]

Very nice install dave w. Looks factory installed. Thanks


Being bone stock, I'm sure dialing in your tune was not so difficult.I was on a steep learning curve. Tuning a stock engine was still a challenge.


I don't think I will have it that easy. That kind of thinking is 100% correct!

See attached screen shot of 0411 injector parameters. I copied / pasted the L31 5.7 liter injector parameters from a stock tune. It will be very challenging to find aftermarket injector parameters that will copy / paste into the '0411 parameters.

Maybe the option of factory 8.1 Liter injectors (about 30 lb) are an option?

dave w

[Mikey G]

Happy Holidays All. - Just a small update to my 24x conversion. I stripped out the OBDI harness and installed the OBDII (0411) today. The front of the engine has been stripped down to add in the 24x crank reluctor. The coil packs are mounted and SP wires are done. Here are some links to photos. Hope you like.Cheershttps://lh3.googleusercontent.com/tu57s7FQ-52eRp3V4AWoHK4M8JR8yQuLBBiv7oOxI1q97x4xtDR8iXs6jUj zNfxv3ogumNSItOPRdFQ2DGJFX7IY7BM1XYhI0UnMCJ1WVR4jG M-E7QVE-1n0GdeibSFrB8OMlzZejLJqrfB9tIRoALigvEVysDP-7NkBBylBsM01wI6MwFv_z7MFrNYF72NEjjjL-gaIuu-rABqdyKUDoNyGDC_XM0m8YFtv9RX-yZ-fWxObLBtwN36F2EGNoJWmhl8kSt1K9O2dVT9ZaY9Szg0Lp22vm 0EIGQQDFRxXHXKV97XJOF64NGxYdCreSc51Xsn3vkmavX-bmMIF5gizj5q7BJWBuCZRUiOd8Huikl0iar3GyxBSCLTMYoeQP ZaWObPajPb0iwxpPhRZnpLuYTJi4FredNGq8YLmx4Wjj6mYUjT Yvg3rDbyON1xIWyn_GFy-cqpLAX85T5-M--gZwEl88TUh7Q4XwK6pvecGgVvKoZGlRyb5I3vV0S1htEjstSXp V1RKzPWQOB1oNCRAog-vMtGNIVCvN8OuN7NVLQDACmUw_TuFsCxNp4ZMXI8VtA-Raqa_d1IXygD6lrSIXVCFJXJ3pT-SH5vT2iv_fZ7OdakV=w802-h602-nohttps://lh3.googleusercontent.com/mu1gFksFsUOV_FK_zsjO7Rxd6ITM_7VMeaVzxN7BtYADLD3rT2 HqWZoQdxZsPv3-wTJDZLkPNy_-CoAy3ytkPf_6qIaxTt2bsF3oFTu5PYhnroBRQ_P89vqlQskKvw ncpWOYvxuJ64__8uS8d_dGSsJipF73XfM_hji5LUktBa8g9YwX D7WMVYOMQe0HWGB9FTSr5g35Y-DwA2Qlbs37TC40TGytkmbcZvrjRUyWiWJzdeTPfu1LCMagD0q_-SznD99a7Fj-xVpI3LF6bD8hNQ-VndqxaOir5FnTOt1mYYmA6OO4ffb06iRM0bDeo_UeY71Udc2uG e4mtD0btTvTYYBHi1zLVAvSPW8e7NnK8oPXS6l-mJ3-UTuYYv_IS7uK1dX6JYeIQagAhjDhTHIS0bUQ_GrbDU1_aDeC-v6CzyyIk0OTP-PBRi8_1zHbRiIIRQLr8a28et4u0K1HasIAY4hlMt_5iFXJTePQ n1BMyOQdG4mEF0N5fgsv9LlUV00WY-N9QmN6lK98AhAaqdlftID2ggin7Db8JqjbJlVUi45SzFLPxPC4 MYwqOh60CKpYDhxub4uXDIAJ2Ux4NydWq7e9cwp_vopbaWcFO6 rL5mq9k-ixbnz1=w802-h602-nohttps://lh3.googleusercontent.com/mnvFH0UuiKiiqrw6wsQuCV19GX5rAdVxGGRL01pBtN5HmqDDh9 1jPommOJphrAbv0idcmbbmdg0wXYyCqoOn4DbvdV5YA3LpZkjU JFWZoXYW947RXyJm2Z99uD-AfRTdKYmxjrc6SolKW9q38js6w2PHjGu9Xmc4GdDgGZZPy_7mQ E8As3TuBpsFVBY-ytcAmcsazTZLrpYxJPFJXflOX0m6P3auWAku3D8wz3eeTIx2UR CJ28my4TQBk7Eb9I8sOG1MxMaOVWMLLhIcqLBsUxxIKmCVIjA_ lAFsk5f1PzCpb7-9BFIZtbR_-gTp2pS4Io8oPsyOINwdewYlbH_YBnPQBMXUhiRxbte9hCwrAPH sdinVic1wFwexET_pFLAwcx2i_o0uk-uarAbmatAg9B6P_ikW_6-JeCj8R_4hX_SYU-C70zzWnY45AkG016zKpgh_vzTSXKga8FVSf1-j-h-Lo7R88c-VI4Au3FM2MB8069wg85-H11mitHYhE8vbEJCIGw0efTyGz7JYCT7efPfomT1t8CyyT5iDx T2xfSnH8pmhhBzUUdwHw0l4FLxX4TzQbLGcS34Kcy-_t7OTH4HB1zMx0Azj6phNG-anwJj2WR_Ic20K=w802-h602-nohttps://lh3.googleusercontent.com/NNm2Z6bpJ5Gg69qA0LNC6GLuLfvi6gYcRJ6g09U45qEPqdZcUZ cAZeqDGFNarICNNyfKn0LERGmJMhJ63vbAlWuIdaSYCGKZU_Qj 49VrGInH5a_mC4f5CL97cQDuymEKkZApjV3cUDbuGBKXTho2Lo irSgZM8xlklWL3WAsXLcD0YieW_qWI3jwwPP33NxCd1zQWPpiU _xVbsQwlovbA4o2CTNRPQHvXphQ87txFhmnLkGAW90jRG5QP0H rwZvXZWkyhA-CU2ZTCa2_ocJzADl4uKbW9vIYPL-e6mdmypaagqHsNyLAXKRDfnQrteZoQqaPkBBVYP01fOAkQCjjG j6DE_xJDbgYQBqOz05kPoQzRZRHCTSi2gwWWWPvIuhke73N3-VhYrn47_2rmlO9JrDlGbzuYLV7GSPuP5y-5Vzs8LH9JirCcY7JDPZE72rs3v97xjI-lvzTVRZOhWOC8DPqC5eWm8gaDbgyAQhyLJFCeFijmPnRQIxp3y SPXAQU4QnBjzZO_W_X3uXV_BkRsQYZpbYDu9z9EmmuxruCtT_1 FV-9sZhKE710GteG4791f7Agj284U70sP_KS8N1ysUqHYNa1YyM-6rtfB9kmfNgcKgQtCLKtm=w802-h602-no

[Fast355]

My daily driver 1999 S-10 has a Bone Stock L31 Vortec 5.7 liter with 24x. See attached pic.For a starter flash, I modified a 2002 5.3 Liter flash.dave wI have a modified 8.1 flash in my Express van.It is DBW, 24x on a Marine intake on a L31 with worked 906 heads and a Marine '395 cam with 1.7 rockers.

[Mikey G]

Hi Fast355 Your Marine 395 cam has somewhat similar duration to my cam. I had to remove my intake manifold to swap out the HEI over to the L31 distributor to provide the CPS. the intake ports were heavily stained with fuel/carbon deposits al the way up to the TPI runners. I thought this to be excessive. This past summer, the engine had done a lot of idle tweaking with the OBDI set up. I understand big cammed engines have no business sitting at idle for extended periods of time. I do have a few questions regarding your set-up. - What vehicle is this engine in ? -or going in? - What RPM did you get the idle to settle at? - What have you done to the idle tables to compensate for the false lean condition the O2 sensors would read at idle ? - Are you running open or closed loop when idling? - Does the sequential injection and COP offer any help with a high overlapped cam at idle ? If there are any others who have comments to offer - please do. Thanks in advance. Cheers. Mikey G

[Fast355]

Hi Fast355 Your Marine 395 cam has somewhat similar duration to my cam. I had to remove my intake manifold to swap out the HEI over to the L31 distributor to provide the CPS. the intake ports were heavily stained with fuel/carbon deposits al the way up to the TPI runners. I thought this to be excessive. This past summer, the engine had done a lot of idle tweaking with the OBDI set up. I understand big cammed engines have no business sitting at idle for extended periods of time. I do have a few questions regarding your set-up. - What vehicle is this engine in ? -or going in? - What RPM did you get the idle to settle at? - What have you done to the idle tables to compensate for the false lean condition the O2 sensors would read at idle ? - Are you running open or closed loop when idling? - Does the sequential injection and COP offer any help with a high overlapped cam at idle ? If there are any others who have comments to offer - please do. Thanks in advance. Cheers. Mikey GIt is in a 1997 G1500 Express van.Idle is set at 700 rpm. I only idle it that high because of the 25% underdrive pulleys. Very few changes to the 02 sensor tables. I did have to make some minor changes to the proportional gains due to the long tube tri-y headers. It actually runs slightly lean when you monitor it with a wideband. The plugs stay clean and with the COP running stock .060" plug gaps I have tun it as lean as 17:1 without misfire.Closed loop at idle (I am in closed loop in about 45 seconds)Sequential injection does help because you can set end of injection timing to correspond with cam timing.My cam is relatively small and has no problem idling for long periods of time. I let it idle for about 4 hours straight last winter on a roadtrip to Ohio. Got into a storm and it was crazy cold, pulled off for a few hours and slept a while.

[Mikey G]

Hi Fast355,

Thanks for your responses - well appreciated.

What changes - if any, would you consider if you were using aluminum heads ? like AFR Street 65cc 195s....
Is your WBO2 wired to your PCM ?

I should have the engine/wiring all buttoned up this weekend. I'm not qualified (yet) to do the tuning myself so, I have made arrangements with a local, very well known tuner to remove the VATS and flash in another program. I'm hoping to start the car up and drive over to his shop where he will proceed with the fine tuning on his chassis dyno. This will also include some road tuning time as well. Would you be able to offer any advise for the initial tune so I could expect a start up and limp to his shop?

Thanks in advance

Mikey G

[Mikey G]

Hello All,
Small update. I finished buttoning things up last night. After fixing a pin out issue on the crank sensor it fired up immediately and idled quite well. as soon as the snow dissipates some more, I will go for a road test. 1152411525

[dave w]

Thanks for the update.

dave w

[Mikey G]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqdPT1PGZUI

Hello Everyone.

Start-up done went well dyno day was Monday. RWHP was 330hp and RWT was 392ft/lbs

If the link did load

see Youtube - V8 RWD Z24 Dyno Day https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqdPT1PGZUI

[evilstuie]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqdPT1PGZUI

Hello Everyone.

Start-up done went well dyno day was Monday. RWHP was 330hp and RWT was 392ft/lbs

If the link did load

see Youtube - V8 RWD Z24 Dyno Day https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqdPT1PGZUI

Did you post the BIN file here?

[Mikey G]

Did you post the BIN file here?

No I didn't.

Purchasing the software and credits was more expensive than having it tuned at my local shop. He had it done in 3 pulls I would still be fiddling with it today... They did load it up in a spare 0411 so I have somewhat of a back-up. There is a wiring issue and only one O2 sensor working. The tuner (BOB), did his best to tune around it for now - idles very low (450rpm) when cold. Fine when warmed up. I had to put the car in storage soon after to take care of moving and some massive renos at the new place. I'm to trouble shoot this wiring issue this winter and return for the balance of the tune in the spring. I hope to leave with a copy of the BIN File.

[evilstuie]

No I didn't.

Purchasing the software and credits was more expensive than having it tuned at my local shop. He had it done in 3 pulls I would still be fiddling with it today... They did load it up in a spare 0411 so I have somewhat of a back-up. There is a wiring issue and only one O2 sensor working. The tuner (BOB), did his best to tune around it for now - idles very low (450rpm) when cold. Fine when warmed up. I had to put the car in storage soon after to take care of moving and some massive renos at the new place. I'm to trouble shoot this wiring issue this winter and return for the balance of the tune in the spring. I hope to leave with a copy of the BIN File.

Oh ok.
I've got a similar issue with mine I think. Left bank O2 sensor goes up and down as it should, the right bank only moves from 0.445 to 0.455, but both fuel trims are working. Let me know if you find a solution to yours. :)

[Mikey G]

Oh ok.
I've got a similar issue with mine I think. Left bank O2 sensor goes up and down as it should, the right bank only moves from 0.445 to 0.455, but both fuel trims are working. Let me know if you find a solution to yours. :)

Interesting. My issue is with the right bank. We swapped the O2 sensors for other known working units and also the wiring from right to left to bank to confirm it was the wiring. We tested the right bank wiring for the usual Gnd, 12v+, signal to the ECM. All were checking our good (???) However, like you, only moving from 0.445 to 0.455 ish.... I wonder if there is something with the ECM..

I will definitely post my findings... Thanks evilstuie :)

[notime2d8]

Interesting. My issue is with the right bank. We swapped the O2 sensors for other known working units and also the wiring from right to left to bank to confirm it was the wiring. We tested the right bank wiring for the usual Gnd, 12v+, signal to the ECM. All were checking our good (???) However, like you, only moving from 0.445 to 0.455 ish.... I wonder if there is something with the ECM..

I will definitely post my findings... Thanks evilstuie :)

So what do you think in the end? Was the cost and effort worth it? How's the experience over a carb? I have a TPI setup sitting on my shelf.

[Mikey G]

So what do you think in the end? Was the cost and effort worth it? How's the experience over a carb? I have a TPI setup sitting on my shelf.

When I got started with this project, I put a carb on for simplicity as I knew there would be much troubleshooting elsewhere in the car. I really liked the TPI I had sitting on the shelf as well. I was convinced the OBDI would work and the idle quality would be acceptable. OBDI (SD),did not have the options to contend with the overlap on my cam. Idle quality was bad - always rich. I had three different people try different things. More research led me to want the OBDII - LS conversion. The local tuner also guaranteed me he could make it purr. I did what I could and got the what I needed from EFI Conversions. The cost was still around 1,200 all said and done + $700 for the dyno tune.

The TPI set-up will make somewhat less HP but is a great torquer - especially at low to medium speeds. Much will depend on how hot is your cam. The OBDI has its limits. So does the TPI. I maxed the porting the plenum and the base manifold, Port matched all connections. and put on a 58mm TB. Power started to drop at 5800.

All in all I think the TPI is a way better looking than a carb or a TB set up. I had a tone of fun with the research and install of both the OBDI and OBDII. I would go straight for the 24X conversion. There will always be options for future add ons. My car was running so I accumulated the parts slowly. The hit was not so severe. More than happy to share any information I have

Hope this helps

[evilstuie]

Interesting. My issue is with the right bank. We swapped the O2 sensors for other known working units and also the wiring from right to left to bank to confirm it was the wiring. We tested the right bank wiring for the usual Gnd, 12v+, signal to the ECM. All were checking our good (???) However, like you, only moving from 0.445 to 0.455 ish.... I wonder if there is something with the ECM..

I will definitely post my findings... Thanks evilstuie :)


Yeah mine is exactly the same. I just bought brand new O2 sensors and installed them and it was still the same.
I'm using a 12202088 OS which LRT supplied the XDFs and some assistance with. I'm not sure if there's anything in the OS itself that could cause it.
But I've checked the ScanXL and TunerPro logs and both report it the same, but strangely enough the Left and Right Bank short term fuel trims oscillate up and down as they should, so they seem to be reacting to the O2 sensors, they just don't seem to register.

I'm still a bit confused by the tuning process because my car smells like its running really rich, and its using a lot of fuel, but the logs from TunerPro and ScanXL are showing my ST fuel trim around -16 in some areas which I'm lead to believe means its actually adding 16% more fuel.

Spark tables are also confusing because it seems the PCM chooses the timing anyway, and my knock sensors aren't detecting any knock.

I don't want to take it to the dyno and drop a grand before I know everything is working as it should.

[Fast355]

When I got started with this project, I put a carb on for simplicity as I knew there would be much troubleshooting elsewhere in the car. I really liked the TPI I had sitting on the shelf as well. I was convinced the OBDI would work and the idle quality would be acceptable. OBDI (SD),did not have the options to contend with the overlap on my cam. Idle quality was bad - always rich. I had three different people try different things. More research led me to want the OBDII - LS conversion. The local tuner also guaranteed me he could make it purr. I did what I could and got the what I needed from EFI Conversions. The cost was still around 1,200 all said and done + $700 for the dyno tune.

The TPI set-up will make somewhat less HP but is a great torquer - especially at low to medium speeds. Much will depend on how hot is your cam. The OBDI has its limits. So does the TPI. I maxed the porting the plenum and the base manifold, Port matched all connections. and put on a 58mm TB. Power started to drop at 5800.

All in all I think the TPI is a way better looking than a carb or a TB set up. I had a tone of fun with the research and install of both the OBDI and OBDII. I would go straight for the 24X conversion. There will always be options for future add ons. My car was running so I accumulated the parts slowly. The hit was not so severe. More than happy to share any information I have

Hope this helps

I am in the middle of setting up a TPI 383 controlled by a 2006 LS 6.0L PCM in my 1997 Express van.

Will be a 11:1 6" rod 383 with Edelbrock Etec170s, Edelbrock Vortec TPI base that has been ported, Siamese ported SLP runners, ported factory TPI plenum, LT1 throttle body, Doug Thorley tri-y headers, 2.5" dual exhaust into a dual in/single out muffler with electric cutouts. Finally I am using the Lunati Bootlegger 224/236 @ .050 cut on a 108* LSA and it will run on E85 with a flex fuel sensor. The ignition system is EFI Connection 24x with Delco D585 coils.

Timing table is not hard on these setups. Provided there is NO knock activity it will run on the high octane map.

[Mikey G]

Yeah mine is exactly the same. I just bought brand new O2 sensors and installed them and it was still the same.
I'm using a 12202088 OS which LRT supplied the XDFs and some assistance with. I'm not sure if there's anything in the OS itself that could cause it.
But I've checked the ScanXL and TunerPro logs and both report it the same, but strangely enough the Left and Right Bank short term fuel trims oscillate up and down as they should, so they seem to be reacting to the O2 sensors, they just don't seem to register.

I'm still a bit confused by the tuning process because my car smells like its running really rich, and its using a lot of fuel, but the logs from TunerPro and ScanXL are showing my ST fuel trim around -16 in some areas which I'm lead to believe means its actually adding 16% more fuel.

Spark tables are also confusing because it seems the PCM chooses the timing anyway, and my knock sensors aren't detecting any knock.

I don't want to take it to the dyno and drop a grand before I know everything is working as it should.

I understand completely. Can you communicate your issues to the tune shop? If they have the ability to actually tune your application, they can confirm there is a hardware issue of just a software programming (tuning), issue. My tuning experience started with the tuner looking over my wiring schematic, collecting all specs of my engine, removed the VATS from my 0411 and loading up his custom base program so I can start up and drive to his shop. (He took a the popular 2000' Van program and spent 30 min tweaking it) He intentionally made the idle and part throttle a little rich to assure there wouldn't be any lean conditions. I brought spare sensors including Os sensors. During the tuning process, he let me change O2 sensors and swap out the bank wiring to try to troubleshoot my issue while he went to serve other customers. My experience was awesome to say the least. Based on other horror stories, I consider myself lucky. I'm thinking of contacting him regarding this similiar O2 sensor readings you guys are having to pick his brain...
Keep you posted.....

[Mikey G]

I am in the middle of setting up a TPI 383 controlled by a 2006 LS 6.0L PCM in my 1997 Express van.

Will be a 11:1 6" rod 383 with Edelbrock Etec170s, Edelbrock Vortec TPI base that has been ported, Siamese ported SLP runners, ported factory TPI plenum, LT1 throttle body, Doug Thorley tri-y headers, 2.5" dual exhaust into a dual in/single out muffler with electric cutouts. Finally I am using the Lunati Bootlegger 224/236 @ .050 cut on a 108* LSA and it will run on E85 with a flex fuel sensor. The ignition system is EFI Connection 24x with Delco D585 coils.

Timing table is not hard on these setups. Provided there is NO knock activity it will run on the high octane map.

You set up is quite similar to mine. I have 10.5 with 6'' rods. I chose the AFR 195cc. CC Xtreme EFI 280 -m 230/236 with 109°. 1-5/8'' shorty headers with 2.5'' dual cats, mufflers and Morose racing mufflers at the back as resonators. My car is quiet and no drone. I think you are correct with the ease to tune in general. He completed the WOT in 3 pulls. I think this is an awesome combo. Gobs of torque at low and mid range. Perfect for a daily driver - but with sharp teeth.
The coil -on-plug with sequential injection makes the cam seem much less choppy at idle and throttle response is definitely improved over the OBDI or the carb. Many people have a hard time figuring out just what I have under the hood... (Cool).
My tuner also mentioned if I was to switch to wheel bearings with the ABS sensors, he could program the tune to back off when there is wheel spin detected. Great for when one gets stuck in the rain. Just need to be able to turn it off when wanting to fish tail or engaging the line-Lock and doing a smoke show...

[evilstuie]

Hey Mikey,
My problem is that I'm in Australia, we had one maybe 2 cars that have a Chev Small Block in them (HT I think) and they were back in the 70s with a carb. Everything they tune here is a LSx and there might be maybe a handful at the absolute most of other people here in Australia that have done a 24x conversion.
All the shops I've talked to about tuning it don't have a clue what I'm talking about when I explain the setup, which doesn't instil much confidence.
My main concern is without them knowing about the 24x conversion and just trying to tune the tables like they would for an LS1, they'll
1) Not be able to do it
2) Spend a lot of hours ($$$) trying to tune it
3) Damage the motor
4) Hand it back to me no better and with a 1K+ bill.

If tuning is as simple as doing a run on the dyno, taking the readings and adjusting spark and fuel until the maximum power is obtained, and then extrapolating the values measured into the areas of the map that weren't measured using smoothing or calculations, then it will be fine I guess, so long as he uses the base tune LRT has configured for me, and doesn't start from scratch with a base tune and miss out things like bank assignments etc.

If it requires knowledge and understanding of the differences in the SBC spark requirements and timing then it may be problematic.

There's also the risk of "tuners" just using a library of LS1 motor tunes that they charge an arm and a leg to flash a generic tune which won't come anywhere near what mine needs.

[evilstuie]

Hey Mikey,
My problem is that I'm in Australia, we had one maybe 2 cars that have a Chev Small Block in them (HT I think) and they were back in the 70s with a carb. Everything they tune here is a LSx and there might be maybe a handful at the absolute most of other people here in Australia that have done a 24x conversion.
All the shops I've talked to about tuning it don't have a clue what I'm talking about when I explain the setup, which doesn't instil much confidence.
My main concern is without them knowing about the 24x conversion and just trying to tune the tables like they would for an LS1, they'll
1) Not be able to do it
2) Spend a lot of hours ($$$) trying to tune it
3) Damage the motor
4) Hand it back to me no better and with a 1K+ bill.

If tuning is as simple as doing a run on the dyno, taking the readings and adjusting spark and fuel until the maximum power is obtained, and then extrapolating the values measured into the areas of the map that weren't measured using smoothing or calculations, then it will be fine I guess, so long as he uses the base tune LRT has configured for me, and doesn't start from scratch with a base tune and miss out things like bank assignments etc.

If it requires knowledge and understanding of the differences in the SBC spark requirements and timing then it may be problematic.

There's also the risk of "tuners" just using a library of LS1 motor tunes that they charge an arm and a leg to flash a generic tune which won't come anywhere near what mine needs.

Well I've still got some misfiring issues I think. Going to hit the exhaust ports today with a laser thermometer and see if I can find a cylinder that's not firing.
I also bit the bullet and bought the HP tuners suite and scantool to help diagnose and tune. I installed a fuel pressure gauge, wideband and vacuum gauge, and can now see i've got between 7-11" of vacuum that bounces around wildly, and with the XR270HR cam in a 400SBC, it should be more around the 15-20" and very steady, so I have to go exploring after the misfiring is fixed to see what's causing it.

My next best guess is either a vacuum leak on the intake gasket, or something more sinister like a cam lobe being wiped, collapsed/spun lifter, valve seal or something else mechanical.
From what I've read there's also the possibility the low vacuum is because the valve timing is wrong. I've checked for vacuum leaks outside the motor, so maybe it is in the motor.

[Mikey G]

Well I've still got some misfiring issues I think. Going to hit the exhaust ports today with a laser thermometer and see if I can find a cylinder that's not firing.
I also bit the bullet and bought the HP tuners suite and scantool to help diagnose and tune. I installed a fuel pressure gauge, wideband and vacuum gauge, and can now see i've got between 7-11" of vacuum that bounces around wildly, and with the XR270HR cam in a 400SBC, it should be more around the 15-20" and very steady, so I have to go exploring after the misfiring is fixed to see what's causing it.

My next best guess is either a vacuum leak on the intake gasket, or something more sinister like a cam lobe being wiped, collapsed/spun lifter, valve seal or something else mechanical.
From what I've read there's also the possibility the low vacuum is because the valve timing is wrong. I've checked for vacuum leaks outside the motor, so maybe it is in the motor.

Looking to see if you're firing on all cylinders with a temp gun is very useful - correct if required
Check your initial and total timing. Engine can sound quite good but have a low vacuum.
How are you checking for vacuum leaks? What intake you using? - Perhaps a missed open port somewhere? (I've been fooled at least half dozen times )

Let me know,

Mikey G

[delcowizzid]

Check the injectors are wired correct you have to shift them to the right cylinders to match the firing order it can't be changed in the tune have to physically shift them or they run a little off and do funny stuff.if you just dropped an ls harness on as it was some will be wrong

[Mikey G]

See attached schematic I found on the internet and used in my build.

[Mikey G]

There are injectors and coil connections to swap out when going from LS to SBC
I have build three stand alone harnesses for others with no issues
Let me know

Mikey G

[Mikey G]

Need to swap out injectors 2&3 and 4&7
also need to swap injectors 2&3 and 4&7
That being said, motor will not fire up if this was not done. I'm sure this is not your issue for the erratic vacuum.
Mikey G

[delcowizzid]

And have to change bank assignments in tune so the O2s read the correct cylinders for missfire detection etc hard for the ecu to swing o2s if the banks are messed up

[evilstuie]

And have to change bank assignments in tune so the O2s read the correct cylinders for missfire detection etc hard for the ecu to swing o2s if the banks are messed up

Hey guys,

Thanks for the tips, it's appreciated.

I've been through the harness about 4 times now and checked every single pin from PCM to the other end to make sure it's all correct. I found the issue with the vortec dizzy pins being different to the Cam position sensor in LS motors and fixed that also, so I know all the wiring is correct.

Bank assignments have been set correctly in the tune as well.

As you mentioned about vacuum lines, I also found one of the pipes on the throttle body that i think is usually a heater hose line was actually a vacuum hole, so I plugged that and fixed that.
I've used carby cleaner to check for vacuum leaks around the front and back of the block where the intake sites, as well as the sides and the plenum (sorry, forgot to mention its a Holley Stealth Ram intake).

Basically the car runs rough at idle which i still think is a fouled plug, then when it warms up its ok - All this is at idle.
When driving, the car will go when I open the throttle, but when the transmission shifts, the car bogs right down, backfires, and bucks like crazy, for almost exactly 3 seconds, then I can put the foot down again and get going, but only at cruise throttle.

The motor is a 400SBC, stock bottom end, stock pistons, but XR270HR cam, AFR 195 eliminator heads, heavily ported to around 220cc, and 64/68cc chambers, can't remember at the moment.
The holley stealth ram intake has an arizona marine 58mm twin throttle body, 28lb/hr ls1 injectors, with the vortec dizzy and timing cover to give the 0411PCM the signals it needs.
Running MAFless tune with 12202088 type OS, custom 0129003

Once HP tuners arrives I can use their RTT OS and set the timing to a specific value to see if the rough idle gets better or if vacuum improves from there, as well as recheck the A/F Ratio to see if that's what's sooting up the plugs

[delcowizzid]

Is it the non adjustable dizzy that doesn't turn to adjust my mates bigblock was 1 tooth out on the rotor phasing and it did similar he also had the injectors out of order

[dave w]

The SBC firing order is 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2.

The 5.3 liter (LSx) firing order is 1-8-7-2-6-5-4-3.

It's my understanding changing the '0411 bank assignments in the flash, DOES NOT change firing order. The '0411 24x firing order can be changed by re-pinning the Injector and Coil Pack wiring.

dave w

[Fast355]

The SBC firing order is 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2.

The 5.3 liter (LSx) firing order is 1-8-7-2-6-5-4-3.

It's my understanding changing the '0411 bank assignments in the flash, DOES NOT change firing order. The '0411 24x firing order can be changed by re-pinning the Injector and Coil Pack wiring.

dave w

BOTH need to be done. Injector bank assignment and diagnostic firing order need to be changed in the tune and both the injectors and coils need to be re-pinned at the PCM. Easy way to correct those is copy in the table values from a 5.7 Express van tune. I am running my 5.7 on a modified 6.0L tune in a 1 meg PCM (Green/Blue connectors).

[evilstuie]

BOTH need to be done. Injector bank assignment and diagnostic firing order need to be changed in the tune and both the injectors and coils need to be re-pinned at the PCM. Easy way to correct those is copy in the table values from a 5.7 Express van tune. I am running my 5.7 on a modified 6.0L tune in a 1 meg PCM (Green/Blue connectors).

Yeah both have been done.
Repinned the coils and injectors on the harness and reassigned the injector banks on the tune. The injector bank assignment is just for the o2 sensors, there's no way to change the firing order in the tune.

The dizzy could be out by a tooth or 2, but it should come up as a DTC if it's out of sync I think.

[Fast355]

Yeah both have been done.
Repinned the coils and injectors on the harness and reassigned the injector banks on the tune. The injector bank assignment is just for the o2 sensors, there's no way to change the firing order in the tune.

The dizzy could be out by a tooth or 2, but it should come up as a DTC if it's out of sync I think.

You are WRONG on the being able to change the firing order in the tune. It is there plain as day in both HP Tuners and TunerCats OBDII. It is in the diagnostic tab and tells the PCM in what order the cylinders fire for misfire monitoring and cylinder specific DTCs.

[evilstuie]

You are WRONG on the being able to change the firing order in the tune. It is there plain as day in both HP Tuners and TunerCats OBDII. It is in the diagnostic tab and tells the PCM in what order the cylinders fire for misfire monitoring and cylinder specific DTCs.

Oh ok. I've been using EFI Live and TunerPro up to this point and they never had anything to change the firing order. As I said HP tuners is still on its way to me so I haven't had a play around yet.

Regardless I did it the long way and repinned everything.

Is it possible the PCM needs the CASE relearn procedure. From what I remember reading it is supposed to sync the cam and crank sensors yes? But only works if they're already within 2degrees?

[dave w]

My apologies, I thought the topic was SBC 24x '0411. It appears the thread has wondered to the SBC 4x '0411?

I have experience with the SBC 4x '0411 conversion. I use the FACTORY 2002 Express Van L31 SBC 4x '0411 wiring diagrams, FACTORY L31 Cam / Crank sensors and the FACTORY Ignition Coil / Module on the systems I've worked with. It's a good parts combination / foundation to use for the SBC 4x '0411 conversion. The SBC 4x "0411 initial cam / crank alignment MUST BE 100% "SPOT ON", or "HEADACHES" will result. I use the 2002 Express Van Flash, OS 12212156 with the SBC 4x '0411 conversion.

My daily driver is a 1999 S10 / upgraded with a Stock L31 / using the EFI Connection 24x crank trigger system. I'm using the FACTORY 2002 LM7 wiring diagram, modified for the SBC 24x system. I often use my daily driver to "Test" an '0411 PCM. When testing an '0411, I use the same flash the daily driver '0411 has with the CASE disabled in the "Test" flash. I haven't noticed any drive-ability issues with the CASE disabled flash. I'm using a "EXTENSIVELY" modified Drive by Cable LM7 5.3 liter OS 12212156 Flash for my SBC 24x conversion.

dave w

[evilstuie]

You are WRONG on the being able to change the firing order in the tune. It is there plain as day in both HP Tuners and TunerCats OBDII. It is in the diagnostic tab and tells the PCM in what order the cylinders fire for misfire monitoring and cylinder specific DTCs.

Hey Fast355,
I just downloaded the VCM editor for HP Tuners and found it as you said on the diag tab. Wow, this could be an issue if both have been done then essentially it's just cancelled the change out.
But the TunerPro XDF I was using didn't have an option for firing order, so I assume the firing order is still set to LS1 and repinning has corrected the firing order.

[Fast355]

Hey Fast355,
I just downloaded the VCM editor for HP Tuners and found it as you said on the diag tab. Wow, this could be an issue if both have been done then essentially it's just cancelled the change out.
But the TunerPro XDF I was using didn't have an option for firing order, so I assume the firing order is still set to LS1 and repinning has corrected the firing order.

Actually they BOTH need to be done. The firing order needs to be re-pinned to the correct order and the firing order in the diagnostics tab should be changed. The firing order will not put the injectors and coils into the correct order, but it will correct the firing order in the tune so that the PCM will flag the correct cylinder when you have an injector/coil/misfire related code. If you do not correct the diagnostic side, the PCM will flag the wrong cylinder and you will go crazy trying to diagnose say a p0307 misfire, on cylinder 7 it would actually be cylinder 4 with the problem.

[fastrun86]

Mike G, Do you have a tune file you can share? i would use it start as a base tune for mine. Or the contact info of the place u had yours tuned at? Thanks

[dave w]

For my L31 SBC 24x conversion, I started with a 2002 LM7 5.3 liter flash. I made several changes to the following parameters, injectors, timing, and fuel to more closely match the 2002 Express Van L31. Starter .bin files located here: http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?1513-2002-TunerPro-Bin-Files The .bin file can be open by HP Tuners, EFI Live and TC.

dave w