My $59 problems/tuning a turbo camaro [Archive]

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fasteddi

02-13-2012, 02:02 AM

Ok there is alot of action on here so I wanted to see if anyone on here knows anything at all about the $59 mask im currently attempting to tune in my 1227730ecu with 3 bar map/and turbo 3.1L V6 Camaro

I like the starter bin ive been working on for part throttle tuning but it seems impossible for this car to idle smooth and not be stinking rich. If im lucky ill get 12.4 AFR at idle without the car wanting to "hunt" at idle. Black as can be..sparkplugs.

There are so many different values and such that Im chasing my tail trying to figure this out.

I know that its the code and not the car as i tried my modded $88 bin/with the 1 bar map and adjusted##'s and the idle ran smooth at 14.5-15 AFR and NO hunting.
Honestly this car has never idle like it does now.. ever! Anyone that remembers me tuning the $88 mask a few months ago knows ive never had a idle hunting issue.

Thanks for any insite as im running out of patients for this $59 mask!:mad1:

Just wanted to add though the car does pull nice at 3-5psi of boost. 11-12 AFR and the only reason (i think) that i had a little spark knock today was because of my plugs not being gapped tight enough if not then SA will be taken out.

EagleMark

02-13-2012, 03:58 AM

fasteddi

02-13-2012, 04:20 AM

You'll get it tuned, calm down. You did it before and proved it's not a mechaniccal issue so just need to learn more of Code $59 adjustments.

Or since you swapped one bar MAP for 3 bar MAP during test could the 3 bar MAP be faulty?

Its reading boost and idle KPA fine. I know I just need to relax a little. I went to make sure it wasnt a vac leak again, and its def not. But ive idled the car so much the plugs are fouling!:confused1: I just need to read read read. And hope to catch some pointers along the way.

Six_Shooter

02-13-2012, 05:20 AM

I'll just restate some of the things I have in your other threads and PMs, to keep them all in one place.

Much of this will just be copied and pasted, so it may seem out of context for some people...

The F1 table is supposed to be spark in relation to crank, though because of some other settings and the advance curve built into some ignition modules it may not be exactly the same at the crank. There is no latency table for the spark curve to adjust for different modules, like some other codes have.

Idle uses the 400 RPM row, regardless of what the actual RPM is.

Make sure the base advance (KREFANGL) matches what your base timing is (EST unplugged). Grab a timing light and verify. It's also a good idea to very the spark advance once the EST is plugged in. In my case I had about a 2* discrepancy at almost every point, I adjusted a scaler to rectify that.

Just get the car to idle as lean as possible, even if it hunts a little. I'd rather have a little hunt, than constantly fouling plugs... I'm battling that right now with a guy I know, who runs his blown carbed BBC WAY too fat and constantly fouls plugs and doesn't understand why. :facepalm:

six i dont understand the f28 table its set to 158 across the board and i see this is the closet thing to an injector constant he has 30# injectors what should this be set to ?

Yes, when not using an EGR (which is usually recommended to get a base tune), the same value is used in all cells. The F28 table can add or remove fuel, as the EGR opens, which is why it is a "vs EGR" table. ;)

In at least one of my bins, (2.8L inline6 30# injectors, I have an F28 of 137, others I have around 144, depending on where the engine wanted to run, with some changes.

There is a calculation for this value, but whenever I have used it, I get these ridiculously small values that would max out the VE table in no time. IIRC for my engine, the calculation said somewhere around 72, the engine wouldn't even start with this value, unless my VE table was raised to almost max. The general consensus seems to be start with a starter bin, or a $59 bin that is close to the same combination, and adjust the F28 table until the engine idles at or near stoich, then tune the VE table from there.

The F28 table can also be used to fudge a little, when maxing out the VE table(s), the F28 number can be increased, which will reduce the number in the VE table for the same cell.

Make sure the VSS flag is set accordingly, checked for a magnetic VSS, unchecked for an optical VSS, which also uses two different inputs BTW.

fasteddi

02-13-2012, 03:02 PM

Thank you Sixshooter!

EagleMark

02-13-2012, 07:35 PM

Its reading boost and idle KPA fine. I know I just need to relax a little. I went to make sure it wasnt a vac leak again, and its def not. But ive idled the car so much the plugs are fouling! I just need to read read read. And hope to catch some pointers along the way.Looks like Six Shooter has the info you were looking for.

Now that you have fouled out plugs and probably a sooty O2 sensor don't expect instant or perfect results. Get them closer and take the car for a ride to clean things out.

Or did you change spark plugs yet? I forget if I read here with your thread or somewhere else the need for turbo type spark plugs that have much shorter extrusion and shorter tips to prevent glow and preignition under boost.

Also going to have to look at fuel, 87 octane is not going to help performance under boost and produce knock and retard your timing, killing your performance gains. So make sure your knock is working and taking out enough timing on your starter bin, since it's a starter bin I would hope these settings are on safe side.

There's an excellent article on GN Turbo site about fuel and additives that seems to have great results to this matter.
http://gnttype.org/techarea/misc/octaneexplained.html

When all is ready we need smoky burn out video hopefully with turbo whine! :innocent2:

fasteddi

02-14-2012, 03:33 AM

I got colder plugs gapped to .025 and 93 in the tank.
Thank you for the thread i will check it out!!

I am SO HAPPY right now. Watch this video and you see that Im finally getting a little grasp on the idle and part throttle tune.

1st pull 62% throttle 4.48psi of boost
2nd pull 52% throttle 4.14psi of boost

Decent afrs' but id need just a little more fuel as id like 11.5:1-12:1 Afr's under boost

Idles ok...

Six_Shooter

02-14-2012, 05:36 AM

FWIW, I'm not hearing what Dave is regarding the BOV, it sounds like it is opening to me. Ok, maybe a little in the last video. Sometimes cameras will pick up on sounds that are not heard in real life. :shrug:

I think you've missed some key points in tuning $59, I'll state them here to make sure they are stated again, and clarified on some points.

The 400 RPM row for idle only applies to the F1 table, the VE table uses actual RPM values for idle tuning. The thing to make sure of here is that you are using the correct table, for VE at idle. There are flag options to use or not use the F29c table, and whether to use or not use the F29x table. I would assume that the F29x table is checked and that the F29c table is not at this point.

There is also a flag to use or not use the F77x table as well. I will assume at this point that the use F77x table is checked, it is in all $59 bins I have looked at. One thing to remember here is that the lowest value (100 KPa in the F77 table, 84 KPa in the F77x table) will affect ALL MAP values at and below those values. I.E. the 84 KPa cell in the F77x table will affect all fueling at 84 KPa down to zero KPa. This is why I usually set this to zero, and adjust the F29x table for fueling.

You can, in order to keep from maxing out the VE table, bring the F28 table up some, and reduce the F29x table around the idle cells. It is this reason that I say, that the caluclation is that is supposed to be to calculate the base pulse width (BPC in the F28 table), is not accurate, since the VE table generally gets maxed out very quickly. It is a bit of a work back and forth deal until you get a good balance, this is why I've had values in the F28 table from 118 to 148 at various points in tuning and learning more about how the $59 code works.

As Dave said, the high AFR numbers when you let off the throttle is due to DFCO, there is no fuel being injected, so the AFR goes extremely lean while the engine RPM drops, until a certain RPM or MPH is met.

Do yourself a favor and buy an Ostrich 2.0, more than worth the money on it. No need to log and burn EEPROMs to turn around and test the change, though you are making good progress doing that, but with the emulator, you can make changes without turning the car off, to see the results immediately. :)

The map outlet is on the back on the manifold on the pas side of it.
Ill take it off and check it with the motor running and see if its easy to open. The vac line is about 5ft long.. Its long but is brand new, ill look for cracks and such in the line also.
I wish I had a vac. pump but i dont :mad:

That was like a 4psi shot on those runs. Fun man!! Its hard not to wana step on the gas more, but I dont have much confidence in those afr's yet....

Is it actual vacuum line? If it's too soft it can collapse under vacuum and not provide a vacuum signal to the BOV.

I prefer to use as much hard line as possible, I tend to use brake line for as long of a run as I can, and then use rubber vacuum line only to make the connections to the end points.

I found years ago, that my BOV (A Mitsubishi BOV), would open quicker than when I used just soft line.

fasteddi

02-14-2012, 03:07 PM

Thank you again sixshooter!!! I will get on those points and tune some more, also see if my soft vaccum line is colapsing.

But im glad I am getting a little grasp on the $59.

fasteddi

02-17-2012, 06:04 AM

dave w

02-17-2012, 04:12 PM

Does anyone know of a AFR correction program that works with a $59 bin?? Im lost at how to make up a formula for afr tuning. I was good at using the BLM's in Excel before for part throttle in the $88 mask. But I dont know what the easiest way to use my AFR readings to change my VE values is.... Thanks for any tips! Tommorow gonna be a nice day, and no work...so lots of tuning hopefully!

You should be able to use Air Fuel Ratio 14.7 instead of BLM 128.
Here are some examples:
AFR = 15.7 So the correction will be 15.7/14.7 = 1.068 to make the VE Table Value Richer
AFR = 13.7 So the correction will be 13.7/14.7 = 0.932 to lean the VE Table Value

dave w

fasteddi

02-17-2012, 06:31 PM

dave w

02-17-2012, 08:27 PM

Ok thanks dave. I though it might be somthing like that. So if say i was tuning a certain boost level , and I wanted 11.7 AFR and i was getting 12.2 on the datalog then i would..... 12.2/11.7= .956 then use that as a multiplier for the VE cell to lean out the condition for that cell.

Yes, that math will work.

Not to cause confusion, 12.2 is a leaner AFR than 11.7. The math above should be 12.2/11.7 = 1.043. So multiplying VE Cell times 1.043 will make the AFR Richer from 12.2 to 11.7.

dave w

Six_Shooter

02-17-2012, 08:31 PM

fasteddi

02-17-2012, 10:21 PM

Don't like the $59 autotune excel sheets?

I haven't used it, since I needed to add a plug in, way back when I tried it, then just got used to tuning manualy.

Get the Ostrich, it will make this tuning go a LOT quicker. ;)

Yea ive burnt a good 15 chips so far today and am still not happy.. mabet 15 more and i will be..

I though the autotune was for TP V4??

fasteddi

02-18-2012, 12:56 AM

Part throttle tuning is ok, idle is good. Heres a video 25 chips later....
:mad1:

Max throttle 90% on one pull, max boost 9.5psi, arfs ok(need to still take a little fuel out in some areas) spark knock is only present in a few cells with less then 1* of retard. I will get rid of that knock although im almost certain that its from a rich condition since that was the issue earlier today.

Enjoy the video and the comentary, I do think I might be able to make a 14 second pass come spring. I can only go so fast on these country roads, its hard to find flat ones....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rA7Afatc3NY

dave w

02-18-2012, 02:06 AM

I really can't comment on the video. I will say, I wish there were sunny skies were I live. I haven't seen the sun in almost a week, I'm jealous!:mad1:
dave w

EagleMark

02-18-2012, 02:43 AM

fasteddi

02-18-2012, 04:11 AM

I really can't comment on the video. I will say, I wish there were sunny skies were I live. I haven't seen the sun in almost a week, I'm jealous!:mad1:

dave w

This is a weird winter in ohio. Spring will be here soon though.

fasteddi

02-18-2012, 04:16 AM

25 chips, 2 1/2 hours to add fuel... would be 20 minutes work with my AutoProm!

1 degree pulled from timing is nothing. FLOOR IT!

White plugs? That's lean, tan is better, black is rich...
I think your doing great, why sound so discouraged? Plus you have sunshine! :jfj: I remember sunshine...

Ok i just didnt know what amount of knock is starting to kill the car on those pulls. The plugs are a little tan, not completly white. I take them out every here and again just to make sure the computer is right. (its a true reality check, plugs dont lie)

Im just trying my best to tune this car with the stuff i have. It takes so long to get it right. Im so broke from all that turbo stuff that I cant afford a emulator right now.:mad1:

BUT as long as I can make a 14 second pass in a few months at the track and its a nice driver on the streets ill be so happy!!

Does it look faster on those videos???? Im not sure if you ever saw what It was like before the turbo but id say it was a mid 16'second car, and before the cam and heads it was a high 16second car.

EagleMark

02-18-2012, 05:20 AM

fasteddi

02-18-2012, 05:26 AM

You may be able to keep up to my HUGE White WoodGrain Station Wagon now?

But that is just DataMaster 1/4 mile time @ 14.54 and I am shifting into third gear in the traps... will get real time this spring!

But not if I change out the 2:92 gears for 4:11... and I can seat 9! :laugh:

I better be able to make a 14 second pass...:mad1: or im taking the turbo off..Just kidding!

I just wish i could figure out a faster way to tune the SA and VE tables.... AFR tuning should be easier then the blm.....

droptopstng

02-18-2012, 05:32 AM

fasteddi

02-18-2012, 05:52 AM

hey if that dont work out then I got a little blue bottle laying here that says it will make it go some sub 15 sec passes lol...now for being serious with that boost be carefule an excessively rich condition will blow off the upper ring land, oh and so will 175 shot on a stock honda or for that matter a 250 shot on a stock mustang, and well I could go for days at the crap I have grenaded lol

No n20, i had a mustang before and the nitrous made me broke at 4$ a lbs. Turbo is cheeper. I know ill get into the 14 or even 13's when i can tune at the track. I have no doubt of that. It is just taking me a long time to get it right.

Here a log from earlier. Laugh it up because it took me 3 hours to have the balls to do that much boost. and that much throttle.:laugh:

Six_Shooter

02-18-2012, 07:57 AM

I believe you might be right about the autotune only being compatible with V4 logs.

You should be able to arrange the V5 logs to be usable though.

Six_Shooter

02-18-2012, 07:59 AM

Another copy/paste:

Yea i mainly look at the knock retard since the knock count is hard to read. So if its retarding it i know ive got knock. Thats pretty cheep for the light steel wheel, theres a pep boys a few miles from here.

That log isnt too long but its what was happing when i made that video. So all the pulls basically mirrored that pull. AFR still needs a little work but its gettin better. I forgot to add the SA in that table so dont look at it for a min...ill attach a better one, the whole log is on this attatchment. Bad log but i needed one to base a better tune on.

I know why I had knock i think....Intake temps. Ill make sure when i boost higher psi (10 psi) that i have lower intake temps..It was because I was cruzing to see my afrs at a crusing speed. Or the AFR's are off, becaues look at my timing on those pulls... low low SA

Im looking at boost controlers and springs... Would you guys sugest getting a manual controler.. or a spring like this instead. That wastegate i have said its a 8psi one, but i never made more then about 5.5-6psi of boost. So should i look into 1bar spring(14.7psi) since im losing a good 2 psi from the turbo to the map sensor.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Authentic-Tial-MVS-38mm-Wastegate-spring-Maroon-/350367819378?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item51938ca672

Id really rather get a controler since im not sure the amount of boost ill end up running and I dont wana have to tear the wastegate open all the time to change springs.

controler
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Voodoo-III-MBC-Manual-Turbo-Boost-Controller-0-30-PSI-/270912930214?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item3f13ab41a6
Or can someone recommend a good adjustable controler that will work well??

The knock counter is just an accumulative counter, it doesn't reset until it hits some very high number, so it is hard to use to see knock happening. The funny thing about that is that for a while I would get HUGE knock counts almost instantaneously when I turned the ignition off, it stopped after a while.

Using the knock retard you can almost inversely tell how much knock (as perceived by the knock sensor) you really have. Lower knock retard, means just a little bit of knock, higher numbers of retard, more aggressive knock is happening. FWIW, just after I got my 240Z running on $59, I for some reason missed that there was mechanical advance built into the dizzy, so on the nearly maiden trip to Zfest (A local Z car annual event), that was about an hour away, in which I got the car running the day before, I saw knock retard amounts of upto 18 degrees! Yes, eight teen degrees, never felt one hiccup, so the system works. Welding my dizzy locked out reduced that retard by about 10 degrees right away. lol

About the boost controller, why wouldn't you want to use the one built into $59? It's a simple PWM controlled solenoid. The actual boost control solenoid is the same as some EGR valve control solenoid. Just look for one that has 3 ports, one of which is open to air, usually has a little filter on it, and 2 wire connection.

Here is a decent picture of one:
http://ceddy.us/wp-content/uploads/11323gm_solenoid_port_map-large-external.jpg

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTQWfRScXSvkTpztbqjo-CBggDaSaB-mNGdZyk_wowep9X_WGlloGrIgZwkRA

There are others that will work, although I haven't tried it, if I run out of GM solenoids, I plan to try the DIYAutotune.com boost control solenoid, since it's said to work quicker than the GM valve, and requires less pulse width.

EagleMark

02-18-2012, 08:51 AM

Post up the TunerPro data log .xdl file for me. I changed the knock history log like I did on my LT1, instead of showing counts which means nothing unless theres an increase in that cell, it will show how many degrees needs to be pulled from that cell. I want to test it.

If you add your bin and xdf too I will set up data tracing on spark table for you.

dave w

02-18-2012, 09:17 AM

No n20, i had a mustang before and the nitrous made me broke at 4$ a lbs. Turbo is cheeper. I know ill get into the 14 or even 13's when i can tune at the track. I have no doubt of that. It is just taking me a long time to get it right.

Here a log from earlier. Laugh it up because it took me 3 hours to have the balls to do that much boost. and that much throttle.:laugh:

I looked at the .csv attachment. I am wondering if this data log is from a Wide Band O2 data logger?

dave w

fasteddi

02-18-2012, 04:02 PM

I looked at the .csv attachment. I am wondering if this data log is from a Wide Band O2 data logger?

dave w

Yea I have the simulated narrow band and the Linear wide band ran into the ecu. So im datalogging the WB AFR's.

@ Six shooter, Ill look into those silenoid boost controlers, I did see the boost settings in the mask but was unsure which Pin I would use to wire in the controler, I might just get a better (ceramic) boost controler for now then when I can afford the silenoid and a emulator(this spring) Ill make those purchases. 18* of timing retard??? Really? Wow. I stoped looking at the knock count as it doesnt like to reset the #' and the knock retard is a instant result if knock is present and the ECU is pulling timing out.

@eaglemark..the adx does show spark knock retard. I like that so that i can go back and change the SA table accordenly to stop knock, although I relized yesterday(thanks to sixshooter) that I actually was making knock from too rich of AFR. I keept taking out spark and no results, then I took out fuel and the severe kock was gone.

The XDF, current BIN, ADX and the data logg is attatched.

1project2many

02-18-2012, 05:18 PM

I have never seen knock from excess fuel. I have seen excess fuel damping knock. Overfueling is used to cool a charge and slow a flame front and was the only form of intercooling in GM's earliest turbocharged EFI cars.

$58 and probably $59 has a very good safety feature. If knock is so great that normal spark retard can't fix it, the ecm will dump boost to the wastegate's minimum setting. Aftermarket boost controllers don't do this and can try to increase boost at exactly the wrong time.

Knocking and AFR tuning during WOT passes when the engine is changing rpm should be dynamic. If the rpm and boost is increasing and you see knock at 110 kPa and 3000 rpm, look at the cells at 100kPa and 2600 rpm (or is it 2800??) for the cause. Knock takes time to start and get loud enough to hear. The sensor takes time to report it. The ecm takes time to process it, and the data stream takes time to report it. It all happens very fast but you still have to account for the delay. I've seen guys pull 8-10 degrees of timing out of a cell trying to reduce knock when the cause was a slightly lean spot in the cal just before knock started. Go figure.

AFR and timing tuning by computer takes some time to get used to especially if you have a bunch of experience with carbs. Lotsa newbies get stuck on the numbers. "It can't knock because I've set the AFR at 10:1." Well, guess what Lightning... So use your senses and watch the logs for reports of problems through lean conditions or knock retard. Using BLM for rough tuning slows the process imo. Using it for fine tuning works better but I've found most of the spreadsheet corrections can't produce a finished job as well as a human. Lean or rich cells during and possibly just after changing TPS conditions should be ignored by the "autotuners" or the spreadsheet correctins because the readings are affected by acceleration enrichment, deceleration enleanment, and possibly power enrichment. If those settings are not right then the BLMs will constantly be hunting as the ecm tries to correct, and the spreadsheet corrections can generate average numbers which may or may not be near the ballpark.

Here's my strategy for a street car:
1) Starting from scratch, use a good dyno simulation with accurate engine data to build an initial map. Then get it to idle and drive from inside the vehicle. Use big corrections if needed, select large portions of tables and adjust up and down as needed. Don't worry so much about making the table right, you just want to be able to drive. Cover areas where you're going to spend time. Set spark settings flat across the board if needed, and don't bother trying to build in nice curves or graphs. This will happen later.

2) Work on steady state tuning. The O2 and BLM are for steady state conditions so use them that way. If you have hills around you can do this by trying to drive up a good hill while keeping MAP fairly constant. As the car gets more and more driveable you can do several runs at different MAP settings then burn your next chip. Depending on the grade of the hill and the power of the car this may get tricky as you need to keep rpm from changing too fast. But try. I've seen a guy do steady state in a truck by putting an excavator on a trailer and hauling it around! What a hoot. If you're stuck in flatland things are a bit tougher but chances are you can at least do longer drives at lower and maybe medium load by veeery slowly allowing the car to speed up. You can try two foot driving but you'll probably fubar a good set of brakes by the time you're done tuning. Might be cheaper to find a load type chassis dyno. Fill in as many cells as possible though driving and collecting real data then use a graphic representation of the VE plus the dyno simulation torque curve to cover the rest of the cells. This takes some practice as the low MAP readings are a bit harder to predict. One option would be to keep reducing the throttle size in the dyno simulation to make run after run then "best fit" the results to your VE table.

3) Work on transitional stuff like acceleration and deceleration. There is a lot of room for improvement in many homemade cals in the AE and DE areas which can be tough to get right. The real reason those tables exist is because the ecm cannot correct for a sudden, large lean or rich condition fast enough through the O2 feedback system so it must use MAP and TPS changes to trigger a quick, temporary adjustment to fuel. Trimming AE so it doesn't spike rich during mild throttle changes can save a bunch of fuel and make the car very responsive. Setting it too lean with a turbo car makes a vehicle that will have a bunch of turbo lag on the highway and be more work to drive (but may seem fun if you like to constantly feel acceleration). There are a bunch of "gotchas" in $58 that have probably been carried over to $59 which can take a while to work out once you get to AE and DE but if you get them nailed the result is extremely rewarding.

4) Move to PE and WOT runs. Although most people want to do this early on, it's really the tail on the horse. Putting it at the wrong end of the process only makes it tougher to get where you're going and causes waaay too many headaches during the journey.

Now, during this process you have to remember that all of this tuning can overlap to some extent. IF AE is way too lean you just might end up taking a detour to richen it up a bit. If PE fuel or timing is being engaged, you'll need to burn a chip with it disabled. And of course spark advance and the voltage reported by the O2 are related so closely that adjusting one may cause larger than expected changes in the other. But the general outline above will provide a good VE table (the basis for everything else), acceptable transitions, and reliably correct PE. Any other approach will take extra time and make unnecessary work imo.

Sounds like a lot. Maybe it is. But IMO it's the straightest path to a good calibration.

Six_Shooter

02-18-2012, 06:15 PM

@ Six shooter, Ill look into those silenoid boost controlers, I did see the boost settings in the mask but was unsure which Pin I would use to wire in the controler, I might just get a better (ceramic) boost controler for now then when I can afford the silenoid and a emulator(this spring) Ill make those purchases. 18* of timing retard??? Really? Wow. I stoped looking at the knock count as it doesnt like to reset the #' and the knock retard is a instant result if knock is present and the ECU is pulling timing out.

Rbob just posted some part numbers on TGO for you.

Yes, 18 degrees, I took care of it rather quickly.

I also have other contributing factors that for me "knock" will never go away, my valve train is completely mechanical and VERY noisy, so I suspect a lot of my "knock" comes from that. I also suspect that some of what the KS was picking was due to the tranny, since it was always at the same RPM in each gear. I've fixed my tranny now, so I'm hoping that any bits that were floating around in the tranny won't be picked up now. That is the difficult thing about looking at knock reporting on a laptop screen, the KS doesn't know if it's really knock, or just a sound in the same frequency range as knock. You have to determine for yourself, just what is and is not really knock.

Another copy/paste:

Go to the wreckers and look at mid '80s to mid '90s GM cars and trucks for the EGR solenoid that looks like the solenoid I posted above. Grab it and the plug. The ECM pin is the same one that the '7749 uses, which I don't recall the pin off hand. The solenoid is simply wired on one side to 12V ignition, the other side to the ECM pin.

I can't help you on the TCC stuff, I run a manual tranny, sorry. I know there has been discussion on it at c59.org, so check there.

EagleMark

02-18-2012, 07:56 PM

The last adx I saw you had shows the knock history table to show knock counts, what I did on my LT1 was change it to show knock retard, this is only possible when the ALDL data has the knock retard amount in the data flow with knock counts. This will give you degrees on advance taken out in each cell, not just that knock counts increased in that cell.

My experiance with narrow band simulaters has been a let down... was better to tune open loop and wide band which is pretty fast with an Emulater...

gregs78cam

02-18-2012, 08:06 PM

My experiance with narrow band simulaters has been a let down... was better to tune open loop and wide band which is pretty fast with an Emulater...

+1^, my experience as well.

fasteddi

02-19-2012, 12:11 AM

+1^, my experience as well.

Well i got the wide band and always am in open loop, the non-boost(under 100kpa) tables are great, so is idle as im concened but the WOT needs work. I just need to learn a faster way to tune using the chip method that im stuck with for now.

fasteddi

02-19-2012, 12:12 AM

Rbob just posted some part numbers on TGO for you.

Yes, 18 degrees, I took care of it rather quickly.

I also have other contributing factors that for me "knock" will never go away, my valve train is completely mechanical and VERY noisy, so I suspect a lot of my "knock" comes from that. I also suspect that some of what the KS was picking was due to the tranny, since it was always at the same RPM in each gear. I've fixed my tranny now, so I'm hoping that any bits that were floating around in the tranny won't be picked up now. That is the difficult thing about looking at knock reporting on a laptop screen, the KS doesn't know if it's really knock, or just a sound in the same frequency range as knock. You have to determine for yourself, just what is and is not really knock.

Another copy/paste:

Thanks sixshooter, ill look for one at a j/y but they are scarse arround here, Ill probly just get one off the net if I can fine one at a decent price.

Six_Shooter

02-19-2012, 01:43 AM

fasteddi

02-19-2012, 02:33 AM

I was at the wreckers today, and the '93 (maybe earlier) to '95 full size TBI GM trucks had a EGR solenoid that looks like it would also work for controlling boost.

If you can't find one, let me know, I'll grab one for you.

If you can find one and you know where its at, can you just pick it up and ill paypal ya some $$ just let me know? The closest j/y is 30 miles from here and there horrible ones....

1project2many

02-19-2012, 02:45 AM

EGR solenoids operate in reverse from boost control solenoids. The boost solenoids connect the supply line to the turbo when they are off. It's a safety in case the ECM or the EGR fails so the system won't overboost. Most EGR solenoids connect the source line to vent to disable EGR operation unless commanded otherwise. Again, a default value thing so the EGR doesn't apply whenever vacuum is applied.

I only know because I needed to buy the boost solenoid when I put the Toyota together. I was sooo happy when I managed to dig out an EGR solenoid then I realized that it wasn't going to work after going through all those boxes...

fasteddi

02-19-2012, 02:53 AM

Would this http://www.ebay.com/itm/ACDelco-214-474-Waste-Gate-Actuator-/120722178728#vi-content and http://www.ebay.com/itm/GM-Boost-control-Solenoid-Pigtail-oem-BCS-Delco-wire-/120723539706?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item1c1baf06fa this be fine. Also I know one wire goes to F2 on the ecu... whats the other wire go to... ground right???LOL

Six_Shooter

02-19-2012, 04:00 AM

gregs78cam

02-19-2012, 04:23 AM

The EGR solenoids I have found work just like the boost control solenoid.

EGR is just a solenoid that connects one port to either vacuum or atmosphere, wastegate is held closed by spring and opened by vacuum so just modulating the vacuum passed on to the wastegate should work. Good idea.

fasteddi

02-19-2012, 04:30 AM

Yep, that'll work.

The other side goes to 12v ignition.

The EGR solenoids I have found work just like the boost control solenoid.

Well im just gonna go ahead and order them an hope the get here soon so i can tune better. So one goes to 12vt ignition and the other the F2 pin. Sounds easy.. That on the F70/F71 tables only to control right?? Thank again sixshooter!!!!

fasteddi

02-19-2012, 05:17 AM

F2 is the air select valve control on my 7730ecu.. Does that sound right for a pinout for the boost silenoid? Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

fasteddi

02-21-2012, 05:36 AM

Ok well the silenoid is shipped.. thankfully. Im dying to turn the boost to 10psi and tune. Stuffs addictive!!!!!!:mad1:

Six_Shooter

02-21-2012, 06:19 AM

Boost is very addictive.

JeepsAndGuns

02-21-2012, 03:39 PM

Yea, watching your video and hearing the turbo makes me want one! :mad1:

fasteddi

02-22-2012, 01:32 AM

Boost is very addictive.

Yes im learning that now..Its hard to drive the car normally....:rockon:

Six_Shooter

02-22-2012, 01:39 AM

Yes im learning that now..Its hard to drive the car normally....:rockon:

I tend to lie to myself and say that eventually you'll drive it nicely after a while, but you never get to that point, even when you're trying to be a nice driver, you can't help but watch that boost gauge wrap deep into the positive pressure side every now and then...

fasteddi

02-22-2012, 11:41 PM

Got to drive the car today..50 and sunny in ohio???? Weird but i am NOT complaining. I added 1-4* of timing in the 0-6psi area since thats what I was pushing today. The added timing helped alot!!! Faster, more responsive, and else then one pull with less then 1* of retard, I never had any knock retard(and I had about 6-9 pulls on boost,IIRC) I added the log if anyone wants to look at it in excel.

One question though(sixshooter can ya help me here?)For the boost sileniod, Do i just hook the vac line from the turbo into the sileniod and the output on the sileniod goes to the wastegate????
Also out of the four F70/71 tables, which ones should I set up for desired boost, as code59 confused me... Sorry im such a newbe sometimes!!Do I use them all or just two of them, and are there any other tables that need modded to work for my application of boost control?? Thanks!!!

Six_Shooter

02-23-2012, 01:35 AM

Yes, look at the pictures I posted, I believe they show which port goes to which.

There are really only two pairs of tables. What you will find is that the desired boost VS TPS (F70) and the Desired boost VS MPH (F70_MPH) are actually the same table, just in the stock $58 code, there was only the VS TPS table, $59 added or rather changed it to the VS MPH table. it is selectable which one actually gets used in the flags. The wastegate duty cycle tables (F71, F71_MPH) are there in the same way, one was a stock table, the other was added by $59. Don't worry too much about the duty cycle tables to start with, they are used as an initial DC for controlling boost, they can be used to reduce spiking or under achieving set boost pressure.
Just make sure the proper flags are set for the tables you want to use.

fasteddi

02-23-2012, 01:52 AM

OK thanks on the tips sixshooter,
(MPH_ F70 for desired boost F70) and use (MPH_F70 for boost initial cycle duty F71) These are the flags I have checked. That definitly makes sence! Thank you!

One last Question and ill stop beiing innoying
:mad1:
On the tables themselves, I had 22.3 in all the boxes, I know i need to change those values but I dont quite understand what the top values are on the table?? MPH? TPS?? It goes from 30 up to 80 On the desired boost.
And on the wastegate table it goes from 0-80??? If that value is in TPS signal, does the value number of 80 continue to 100TPS%??....... If I wanted 10psi of boost couldnt I just fill that whole table up with that value on the desired boost?

Six_Shooter

02-23-2012, 04:24 AM

The top value is MPH for the MPH table, TPS for the TPS table. The lowest setting is 30 MPH. IIRC, what ever is in the 30 MPH cells will be used below 30 MPH.

fasteddi

02-23-2012, 04:51 AM

The top value is MPH for the MPH table, TPS for the TPS table. The lowest setting is 30 MPH. IIRC, what ever is in the 30 MPH cells will be used below 30 MPH.

Ok then Im gonna use the MPH table for desired boost and just input the same value for the whole table as that would control the wastegate no matter how fast im going. It was set at 22.3 PSI wow!!! Thats a accident waiting to happen for a newbe like me..LOL But I wouldnt do that, I watch that laptop more then the road... Just hope a deer doesnt run out in front of me(I live out in the sticks):thumbsup:

The duty cycle_MPH is all over the place. I know you said dont worrie about it but wont it affect my concept for controling boost through the silenoid?

Six_Shooter

02-23-2012, 05:28 AM

fasteddi

02-23-2012, 02:58 PM

Ok thank you!

fasteddi

02-24-2012, 09:12 PM

Ok I got the boost silenoid, im wireing it up and when i ran the Vac lines, I just ran the turbo boost outlet to the sileniod and the one vac line out of the controler to the side of the wastegate?? Is that sound right? I have a external WG with a port on top and one on the bottom side, and that sileniod controler has one port in and 2 ports out, although one of the outgoing ports has a filter cover over it. Im sure ill figure it out when im done wireing but thought I see if that sounds right?? Thanks!!

fasteddi

02-24-2012, 09:54 PM

Six shooter, you said wire the one to F2 and the other to a switched ignition????? No ground anywhere?? I dont wana fry the silenoild

fasteddi

02-24-2012, 11:30 PM

Having issues getting this thing to work... I have the vac lines t-ed off the turbo boost port, one goes to the inlet of the silenoid the other to the lower port on the WG. Then the output side of the silenoid I have a hose ran to the top port of the wastegate.

Wired into F2 on the ECU and other wire is grounded. No dice. the sileniod does read a small amount of vts with the ignition on. .5-1Vts.

fasteddi

02-25-2012, 12:32 AM

Ok im giving up for the night.... F2 is suppose to output vts when the ignition is on and its not!!! Driving me nuts. Its 0 vts on my meter.. What am I doing wrong!:mad1: Im literly banging my head right now!

Oh crap..Is the ground through the ECU pulse width mod?? And the switched power is the 12vts to the solenoid?? Then the thing was wired backwards when i wired it(it had 2 grounds) Was that my Problem??

Heres the soleniod, the blue hose is t-ed to the wastegate reference, the turbo boost port, and obvously into the solenoid. The (left hose) is ran out to the top port on the Wastegate. I think that is all ran ok. Its just the wiring that is driving me up a wall!

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/430579_359976437356757_100000332128461_1199588_127 3977155_n.jpg

Heres where I put the output hose from the solenoid... top port of WG
http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/420586_359976387356762_100000332128461_1199587_379 067811_n.jpg

The only thing I accomplished on my day off was that the piping doesnt looked so rigged, as I painted it with some heat paint and mounted a good anough air filter for now.

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/432263_359976484023419_100000332128461_1199589_214 4296333_n.jpg

EagleMark

02-25-2012, 02:38 AM

Yes, it will effect boost control, but it's a fine tuning thing. There's no way to set or adjust it before actually driving the car. It's a reactive to set table, where you have to see what actually happens before you can actually adjust it. It may not need any adjustment.With that said is it supposed to anything if not commanded to? Does it give power when commanded to open wastegate? If so there would be no power key on or at idle, only when commannded to during boost. What does that table say?

What did F2 do before on your wiring diagrams? Looking at other diagrams for soliniod it has power going in and ECM is ground, other soliniods have power, ground and a wire into ECM.

fasteddi

02-25-2012, 02:44 AM

With that said is it supposed to anything if not commanded to? Does it give power when commanded to open wastegate? If so there would be no power key on or at idle, only when commannded to during boost. What does that table say?

What did F2 do before on your wiring diagrams? Looking at other diagrams for soliniod it has power going in and ECM is ground, other soliniods have power, ground and a wire into ECM.

The table is set at 40-60 duty cycle for wastgate opperations(desired boost it at 10Psi), F2 worked the air diverter valve(for the $59 mask it works the boost solenoid). I wired it as the pcm was the 12vts and the ground..was ground. Im hoping thats my problem. Never did I read voltage out of the ecm pin F2. Ill read more but Im hoping that its just a simple mess up my wiring and understanding of the outputs on the ecm

EagleMark

02-25-2012, 02:47 AM

and there's your sign!

http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/attachment.php?attachmentid=442&d=1322074511

fasteddi

02-25-2012, 03:47 AM

I dont get the diagram..... No F2

gregs78cam

02-25-2012, 03:53 AM

I think the point of the diagram is 12V+ to pin A, and the ECM modulates the ground on pin B

EagleMark

02-25-2012, 05:18 AM

I dont get the diagram..... No F2Greg got the point. I got the wrong diagram, I thought you had a 1227730, this came from that thread but may be 1227727? Same ECM, one weatherproof underhood, differant plugs on ECM...

EagleMark

02-25-2012, 05:40 AM

OK found one with F2 to air diverter soliniod, it has power going in so ECM must be ground... same as above soliniod works...

http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/attachment.php?attachmentid=448&d=1322074853

Six_Shooter

02-25-2012, 06:10 AM

Go to the wreckers and look at mid '80s to mid '90s GM cars and trucks for the EGR solenoid that looks like the solenoid I posted above. Grab it and the plug. The ECM pin is the same one that the '7749 uses, which I don't recall the pin off hand. The solenoid is simply wired on one side to 12V ignition, the other side to the ECM pin.

I posted this in both the thread on TGO and here.

fasteddi

02-25-2012, 06:17 AM

:mad1:Sorry im somewhat dumb at times! Thanks for the information and it makes perfect sence now!! Ill get that wired up RIGHT the next time i have free time. And alot the wastegate hose routing.

EagleMark

02-25-2012, 07:29 AM

Don't be so hard on yourself! You know how many hours it took to get a service engine soon light to work wired from ECM to light to ground? Same scenario ECM was ground not power...

fasteddi

02-25-2012, 03:34 PM

The funny thing is that I answered my own problem way before I posted my questions. Sometimes I doubt my ideas. But hopefully later today Ill get the time to re-wire the solenoid and see if it works right.

fasteddi

02-25-2012, 07:03 PM

Now im dealing with 18* of knock retard when the car is reved to 1800rpms+. The silenoid works great and holds boost at its command, but now ive got something giving me false knock, have no clue what it can be as there is so much stuff to cause it. I know its FALSE forsure!!! I even took out the solenoid and such to make sure that wasnt setting it off. Im going to play with it later after work and see if I can get it figured out! Noisey lifters, injectors, or anything else?? Man this is gonna be a PITA getting this figured out!

Since i took out the ecm connector so many times Ill also look at the F9 pin as thats the knock/detination pin.....

EagleMark

02-25-2012, 07:46 PM

fasteddi

02-25-2012, 10:51 PM

Kind of strange you just all of a sudden got 18 degrees retard? Rethink what you have done since just a little bit ago all you got was 1 degree... vacuum lines to new solinoid interfere with MAP reading? Power to soliniod from where? You've done a lot of work check ECM grounds...

Since you were operating accuratly it seems, then all of a sudden got 18 retard, what moved, is anything now hitting? False knock has been found in lifters yes, in exhasut pipes loose, in exhaust pipe hitting frame under toruque, since your getting it at 1800 I'm guessing motor torquing and something with all new exhaust is tapping frame or?

I even read on ThirdGen I guy got false knock from as far away as rear suspension bushing under load. Rock crawlers need to be tuned then knock turned off because when the frame or rock slider hits a rock it senses knock and retards...

Ok it was my fault that the knock was false, the memcal adapter was not seated in all the way(probly from me moving everything yesterday) But is good to go now. I also logged some data, when I was really getting on the car, to make sure the boost solenoid works as its commanded to.

I attatched a excel file if you wana take a peak and see it. I need to work on fueling at Higher PSI/KPA since I made it a little too rich. But this car is fast! WOW is all I can say. 140 stock hp..LOL more like 250 now!:rockon:

fasteddi

02-26-2012, 03:19 AM

This look any better??? good afr no knock. about 16-19 timing through out boost. 11.32psi/11.7 afr held steady

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxAL0VXkG6c

Let me know if im on my way. But up to 95mph in about 14 or 15 seconds is definitly fun. This car is just a big toy now. I cant wait for the race track so I dont have to look for a flat road with no houses on it....

EagleMark

02-26-2012, 03:22 AM

Your having way to much fun...

fasteddi

02-26-2012, 04:04 AM

When your wife works a different shift then you do, and you dont have kids ya get alot of free time. And the car was just calling my name:thumbsup:

Im having a blast getting the car going the way i want it, just tweaking on the tuning, and then when warm weather comes, ill have to "rinse and repeat":rockon:

fasteddi

02-28-2012, 02:34 AM

Well I new it yesterday but I was just lying to myself....I blew the drivers side head gasket. I know for sure as it steams out of the base of the head under the drivers side ex manifold...Just when I was starting to have fun this happends:mad1:

So tuning is on hold till I get that fixed. Crazy thing is I actually knew it the moment it happen, but was just trying to think optimistic since I never saw BAD oil or OIL in the antifreeze. But after I worked on it today and patched some things up with it, I started it and yup there comes the steam and milky oil in less then 2 min of idleing. This sux man, But I guess I had it comeing with 11psi of boost......I guess I should just be happy that nothing is broken.

JeepsAndGuns

02-28-2012, 03:07 AM

fasteddi

02-28-2012, 03:13 AM

While ya have it down, I would probably go ahead and change the other side too.

And while you at it, might as well clean the heads, and do a little port/polish, and 3 angle valve job. :thumbsup::innocent2:

Yea im thinking to change the other side. Actually i ported and polished the heads and added a cam about 4 months ago, but used some cheep head gaskets since i never though id see boost or hi-compresion. Opps I should have planned better i guess and gotten better gaskets. I didnt plan the turbo build, it was a sorta spur of the moment thing, after I drove for a month or 2 with the added power of the cam and heads, i wanted more power....its addivtive!

EagleMark

02-28-2012, 03:28 AM

Bummer...

I'd drain all the water and oil right away, change the oil and run it a couple minutes and drain oil again! If still milky change oil again! Get that motor flushed of any water/antifreeze! Then do quality head gaskets, maybe check heads, don't want to take any off if not needed but you may need to surface them, and look into ARP head bolts. Read the instructions and use correct lube on head bolts. Add oil and antifreeze and run engine till warm, change oil again. See what specs are for re-torquing heads?

fasteddi

02-28-2012, 03:53 AM

Tq is 40# then a additional 90* turn. Ill look into better gaskets, better head bolts and some lube.

I waited like a hour after i knew the head gasket was blown and drained all the oil since i figured what was gonna be in the pan would drain at that point. Milky...thats a shame for sure. I am really bummed!! But thats a part of the process I guess.

I honestly heard the pop when it went.. then when i got home to see what happend( i would drive the car 1/4 mile then shut it off for a minuet, over and over for like 3 mile(not letting the temp get above 220F)) That was the process to get home, I looked at the coolent and it was low as can be, all in my overflow i have(holds 4L) So today i drained the oil earlier, it looked fine, the anit freeze was fine(didnt smell) then I added new oil and coolent and instant steam! I think i didnt see it the yesterday becasues the coolent was so low because it blew out of the radiator into the overflow and out of that also.

Ill inspect the heads, the block and make sure nothing isnt warped(Im praying that its ok)

EagleMark

02-28-2012, 04:18 AM

Six_Shooter

02-28-2012, 04:25 AM

I've never seen that before? And they have to be done in sequence usually from inside out, look at your manual.

It's called "Torque to yeild."

I don't recall why it is done this way, but there was a reason for it.

EagleMark

02-28-2012, 04:27 AM

Maybe that's how they figure in stretch?

fasteddi

02-28-2012, 04:33 AM

Probably not warped but with this much boost it needs to be perfect!

I said to drain water and oil then change oil run without water and dump oil again, without water so you could flush engine, no reason to flush with water still in it as the oil will just get more water... get the motor flushed now, do not wait... it will be fine.

Proper lube on headbolts can make a huge difference in what actual torque is! ARP head bolts don't stretch like stock ones do.

I've never seen that before? And they have to be done in sequence usually from inside out, look at your manual.

Ok ill look over the manual again, for the sequence for the head bolts. I just remember the Tq...I literly read it out of the book when i did the sequence before.
Are you saying to run the car now?? With no water and fresh oil??(to flush it)Or do you mean do that when i initially start it up??? Im new at this blow head gasket thing.....

I already got the crap oil drained earlier, as i didnt want it just stitting in there because i didnt know how much coolent got in there....it was a sad milky mess though...sad day here.

gregs78cam

02-28-2012, 05:24 AM

fasteddi

02-28-2012, 05:43 AM

Yes, put new oil, no water and run it for 1 or two minutes, and make sure you get AAALLLLLL milky oil out. Maybe do it a coupld of times. If you don't you will have rust on your journals. It doesn't take long for that to happen. Then look seriously at head studs. The torque to yield process is actually a more accurate way to torque a bolt/nut. Because the pitch of a bolt is constant, however the friction generated in the threads or under the head is not constant.

Ok Im at work right now.. so as soon as i can, put oil in it(even though the head gaskets shot) and run it for a minuet and drain it, and do that till the oil is not milky anymore?? Am I getting that correct? Should I put any ATF or any solvent based flush in with the oil?? Thanks so much as Im new to this sort of break down on this car.

gregs78cam

02-28-2012, 06:00 AM

you got it. The idea is to flush the milky oil out of the journals, and shut it off before the milky oil mixes up in the new oil, and just gets diluted. May only need once, but twice won't hurt at all.

EagleMark

02-28-2012, 06:11 AM

Cheap oil! No reason to use solvent or ATF. Yes run the motor with no water idle for 2 minutes, drain oil change filter. Let motor cool 20-30 minutes, if oil looked like crap do it again. Rev engine to 1500 this time and sling oil all over to wash it out. Even if you have to do it three times. Your motor will be fine.

If you leave water and antifreeze (milky oil) in rod, main, cam bearings lifters, oil pump, they will rust.

Back to head bolts and lube. Old school drag racers used peanut butter! Really. It was tested and did better then oil, antiseeze and a couple other things and almost as good as modern day head bolt lube... you can probably find the article or link off ARB website.

fasteddi

02-28-2012, 06:17 AM

Ok thanks guys!! I cant work on it till about noon tommorow. Will it be ok till then I hope?? Ill get oil and another filter after I leave work (ive only got one spare right now) Then after that Ill start to tear her down and get those heads off and fix it.

JeepsAndGuns

02-28-2012, 03:34 PM

I always heard to not only lube the threads, but to lube the underside of the bolt heads, the part actually contacting the head. I read that lubeing that part is just as important as the lube on the threads.

fasteddi

02-28-2012, 04:09 PM

Well im picking up some felpro head bolts this morning(there like 30 bucks) and there TTY ones, Im told to only lube under the head and NOT the threads?? Id get the studs but ill be honest, money is a factor and I plan to actaully pull the engine next winter and rebuild it hopefully(my goals are forged pistons and such, if i can save up enough $$ by then)....so those bolts and such better last till then. Leaving work in about 3 hours to pick up the oil and everything else, so that i can clean out that crappy residue from the milky oil, and tear her down and check the situation out..

Six_Shooter

02-28-2012, 08:21 PM

I use thread sealer ("pipe dope") on the threads of the head bolts in a 660.

I've also re-used head bolts without issue, on my boosted builds. I'm not saying that it's ideal, I'm just saying that I've had success doing so.

There was a test that Horsepower TV did, about using different torquing lubricants, it was quite interesting. You should be able to find that clip on You Tube, if not it's definitely in the show it was originally aired on, that can be found on www.powerblocktv.com.

fasteddi

02-29-2012, 03:25 AM

Ok thanks six! And thanks everyone else for the tips on getting the crap out of the engine.

I think my issue was I reused the bolts and never chased the thread(I didnt know any better) Along with a crap head gasket, so 11psi of boost will showed me my faults in 2 weeks! Just cause my torq wrench said 40# didnt mean it was really 40# with crappy looking threads, and I didnt know to put oil on the head of the bolt either, so those heads im guessing werent on nearly tight enough.

But anyways I got the heads both off, inspected things and it looks in good working order. The head gasket metal bands were fine, that that makes me think even more that the gasket was lifting off and not torqed down enough at all!! I know what I saw yesterday and it was steam coming right out of the gasket on that head!!

I got some new felpro head bolts, blue felpro gasket, and a crap ton of oil and 2 more filters. I flushed the car this afternoon and got alot more of the milky mess out. After I got the heads off, i left the oil plug off and poured alot of oil down there, I wiped down the cylinders, lifters, blew out push rods and oiled them down, I turned the crank over 2 times to TDC after I shot assembly oil all over on the cam lifters, the dizzy hole(back of cam) and tried getting it on the crank as much as I could.

Heres a pic. Got this all tore down, cleaned the heads, intakes, and block for new gaskets in about 4 hours or so. The heads dont appear to be warped, but will check that again tommorow, the waterjackets in the heads are fine, although I plan to get the heads pressure tested by a friend just because. So mabey in a week or so Ill have her back together as its suppose to be like 60* this week?? In ohio?? Thats tuning weather!!
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/424565_362509470436787_100000332128461_1206645_250 561768_n.jpg

EagleMark

02-29-2012, 03:38 AM

That's a lot of work for a day! :happy:

Where's the other 2 pistons? :laugh:

Do big blocks fit it them? Na then you'd need 2 turbos!

I should stop giving you ideas...:rockon:

Six_Shooter

02-29-2012, 04:12 AM

fasteddi

02-29-2012, 04:20 AM

You likely won't find a thread chaser or tap without special ordering it.

What I did was take an old head bolt, cleaned it up with a wire wheel and then using a die grinder and a cut off wheel, cut 3 slits length-ways, to help grab the old gunk in the threads in the block, worked well for me.

The head bolts are an odd size at 11mm.

Ahh that makes sence..they look like crap(the bolts i took out) But I did pick up some new felpro ones so thatll do.

@eaglemark......dont be giving me ideas!!!:yikes:2 turbos...........................:laugh:

EagleMark

02-29-2012, 05:36 AM

You likely won't find a thread chaser or tap without special ordering it.

What I did was take an old head bolt, cleaned it up with a wire wheel and then using a die grinder and a cut off wheel, cut 3 slits length-ways, to help grab the old gunk in the threads in the block, worked well for me.

The head bolts are an odd size at 11mm.That should do the trick. Are they flat bottom or open to water jacket? Some break clean and air aftewrds would clean them up nice.

fasteddi

02-29-2012, 05:54 AM

That should do the trick. Are they flat bottom or open to water jacket? Some break clean and air aftewrds would clean them up nice.

I used some break cleaner, then oiled them back up. Blowing out the crap in push rods was fun:mad1:......but there lubed up and good to go. What a mess earlier with that oil...

Heres a quick pic when i started to clean them up... intake side..
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/431475_362509730436761_100000332128461_1206650_224 01790_n.jpg

Bottom
http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/attachments/v6/230280d1322935230-porting-intakes-other-questions-finished6.jpg (http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/attachments/v6/230280d1322935230-porting-intakes-other-questions-finished6.jpg)

fasteddi

03-01-2012, 05:40 AM

I got the car running!! My day off and its 60* outside in ohio... What a winter.

I got the oil to look nice, no coolent in it, but Im going to change it once more time just to be safe.

No leaks, no rad fluid shooting into the overflow, not over heating, and also i compression checked it as 145-155PSI on all cylinders(which is a good number).

The only problem i have is it has bad throttle responce! I think the plugs are shot from the antifreeze getting to them before. Its not misfiring or anything just delayed responce. Idles great, i even took it down the road and gave it a little shot of boost, it pulled good, AFR's were good. It was just bad responce. So ill attend to the plugs(i hope thats the problem) And get to tuning on friday. 65* and sunny!! Perfect afternoon to get a tune for warmer weather!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

fasteddi

03-05-2012, 04:37 AM

Can anyone tell me what modes change in the $58/59 from...say 80% tps to 100% tps???? Im having issues at WOT and it just seems like its the code, not the car.Im trying to understand what transitions happen at different levels TPS and what is different from 80% to 100% tps... Thanks!

EagleMark

03-05-2012, 05:26 AM

I don't know either but usually that TPS range would indicate PE Power Enrichment. During PE most go open loop and add fuel and spark. Hope that points in in right direction.

fasteddi

03-05-2012, 05:35 AM

I don't know either but usually that TPS range would indicate PE Power Enrichment. During PE most go open loop and add fuel and spark. Hope that points in in right direction.

Ok thanks man, ive been running forced open loop the whole time so far. PE mode i will look at though! Thank mark

Im hoping sixshooter can help me agian even though im always bugging him. My concerns are the PE F80 cont. advance table and the Quasi Fuel stuff. Does that affect WOT compared to say 80% throttle... The car is just slower at WOT even though the spark knock is ok, the afrs are ok, and the timing is high enough to make great power.

I just feel like im missing something setting up this code. And cant seem to fine what it is.... its like when i had problems with the idle and then was told about the spark reference angle.... I just feel im missing somethin...sorry for the innoying post:mad1:

EagleMark

03-05-2012, 05:55 AM

Your not annoying your learning and others are learning as well. Six will jump in and help, that's why he got involved here, he just does not have as much free time. He's got a lot of experiance with boost!

fasteddi

03-05-2012, 05:39 PM

Ok, well i looked into some more things and they are intresting to me such as my async pause is higher under WOT by alot compared to the same boost level KPA at say 80% Tps. Also I noticed a table under fueling that is called the fuel cut off (6 cyl)...that table is set up to 5256 cut off and 5198 cut in RPMS. Im woundering if this table is active??? This would definitly be the cause of my pop i hear at those RPMs when im about to shift at WOT.......

Theres just so many tables and scalers that its confusing, but ill keep looking and reading up on the matter. Cant tune..have to work 12 hrs tonight and theres 3inches of snow on the ground.:mad1:

EagleMark

03-05-2012, 05:53 PM

Cut off is just that. A rev limiter. Cut in is where it will start working again.

fasteddi

03-05-2012, 06:02 PM

Im just not sure if that table is active in this code...but the rev limit table says(not used) So im guessing that this one, the( fuel cut off), IS the one being used.. That car really struggled to shift @ WOT and the cut off cut in is so narrow in Rpms that I never even though that a fuel cut off was the issue. Took me a hour to find that table and relize that its not right.....:yikes: The engine did make it over the limit though to shift, but like i said it was really sluggish. I really hope thats the issue.

fasteddi

03-05-2012, 06:11 PM

Actually the Rpm limit is this 5349 is the cut in and 5461 cut out Rpms. Opps i replyed with the wrong #'s before. But anyways if you look at this log really close you can see the Rpms bounce a little at those Rpms, its suttle but it is there.
Let me know what ya think??? Look like that limit is working on that datalog??? Rows 30, 31...and really from 56-66 rows....

EagleMark

03-05-2012, 06:45 PM

Remember this...

http://youtu.be/d_8Fc9qAZcw

fasteddi

03-05-2012, 08:35 PM

Wow blowing the entire intake off...that will give me nightmares... But i do think im on to somthing in the code, so as soon as the slow melts off well see if it helps.

Six_Shooter

03-05-2012, 11:10 PM

That wasn't just the intake, that was also the head.

The rev limiter is always active.

fasteddi

03-06-2012, 02:12 AM

I changed the Fuel cut out. Thanks for the help on that. Hope that was my high Rpm problem, as I would think it would be.

Anyways wish me luck tommorow as is gonna be about 50* out and sunny, so I will be driving it tommorow as a "daily driver" to go shopping in a town about 30 miles away. So Im not going to be beating on it, I just want to make sure the TCC locks up right, it drives smooth, and hopefully when I get closer to home I can open it up a little and see if that WOT is better.

Even though I am gonna be racing it, it still has to be reliable, and tommorow, a hour of datalogging should help me dial in crusing AFRs and smoothness on more of a spring like day with temps higher.

JeepsAndGuns

03-06-2012, 03:32 AM

Remember this...

:yikes::yikes::yikes:

fasteddi

03-06-2012, 04:33 AM

I hope he didnt think I was gonna blow my engine apart........ And just when I stoped having dreams about spark knock:mad1:

:thumbsup:

EagleMark

03-06-2012, 07:26 AM

Just a scare tactic so your careful! Besides you don't have forged pistons so yours wouldn't blow off the top end, it would be the bottom first... You have a good knock sensor and knock retard data, like my LT1 it will report how much timing taken out not just knock counts, but how much knock.

So many people want to add MORE SPARK for MORE POWER! I'd rather be all safe power...

fasteddi

03-06-2012, 03:56 PM

I agree. Id dont wana push that bottom end with spark too much. I love my lil V6 too much to. Dont wana gernade the pistons!:thumbsup:

fasteddi

03-06-2012, 11:04 PM

I Have a few questions about AFR tuning in part throttle.. I know how to get the new number for the VE table on Excel but is the rounding for map(kpa) and such the same for when its past 100Kpa?? The car ran fine on a 50 mile trip this morning, just a little rich at crusing.. 14.5 average AFR. But thats to be exspected as it was 50-60 degrees out on the trip. Thats very warm considering im in ohio.

I also got the WOT down well, that fuel cut was the problem for sure! Opps on my part. But I attatched a log and figured it shows the AFR and timing. My timing seems high on 10Psi of boost(18*) but it never knocked so thats what im looking for I guess.

Thanks for the tips on part throttle VE changes. Also Im thinking that since my timing is so much lower in the unboosted cells compared to what the car had before the turbo that if i just bump up the timing a tad the AFR will lean out a bit. Whats good for MPG about 15-15.5 Afr??

On rows 19-97 is the 0-80Mph area..in 11.36 seconds. Not bad I think for a horrible start and a very slow spool up as Ive been messing with the wastgate duty cycle and just can get it to where I want it. Its only at about 9.5Psi.:mad1: eaglemark scared me with those videos of heads and intakes blowing off:yikes:

dave w

03-06-2012, 11:14 PM

The rounding is the same for Kpa's above 100.

dave w

fasteddi

03-06-2012, 11:18 PM

Thanks dave!

EagleMark

03-06-2012, 11:39 PM

Its only at about 9.5Psi.:mad1: eaglemark scared me with those videos of heads and intakes blowing off:yikes:
Good! :thumbsup:

Timing should drop during boost, but should be about the same as you were before boost. You'll have to get advice as to how to tune that transition from someone with experiance with boost. Somewhere there has got to be a way to get timing going down during boost, also have to take in account where PE is coming in because it usually adds timing as well as fuel or changes AFR during PE. So i guess you'd have to know if PE comes on from a TPS% or MAP.

No knock counts or with yours you know amount of knock retard and it was working well.

fasteddi

03-07-2012, 02:00 AM

OK mark. Thanks. I have a good grasp on the PE adjustments...i think.

Since I putted on it for 60 miles today, I just had to go play with it a little before work.

Here are some numbers off a tunerpro datalog from a "somewhat" good launch on a flat road up to 100Mph.

Can you guys look at these #'s and tell if its somewhat fast, becasue honestly I've been driving this thing so much that it doesn't feel that fast anymore. Thanks!!

0-80Mph 10.62 Sec.
0-90Mph 12.49 Sec.
0-95Mph 14.25 Sec.
0-100Mph 15.71 Sec.:sad:

gregs78cam

03-07-2012, 03:56 AM

If I had to make a guess, I would say that your 14.25@95mph looks about right for 1320. In the ballpark at least.

fasteddi

03-07-2012, 06:53 PM

If I had to make a guess, I would say that your 14.25@95mph looks about right for 1320. In the ballpark at least.

Yea thats what im hoping for. Any 14's will make me happy for days!!! I don't even care if its a 14.99.
:thumbsup:

Quick question, does the car run richer or leaner when the ambient temp goes up outside. And lets assume the humidity is a tad lower. The car would become richer correct? I think I have a great tune right now for WOT and crusing, although the AFR at wide open throttle is in the lower part of the 11's(11.2-11.7). I feel so confident in the tune that Id go to the track right now and run it WOT the whole way if the track was open. Its not the most agressive tune, but it will get me down the track safely.(10PSI):rockon:

RobertISaar

03-07-2012, 06:57 PM

fasteddi

03-08-2012, 12:19 AM

Doubt anyone will believe me since I have no video of it, BUT, i did manage to stay side my side a 5gen V6 camaro today from 40mph up to 80mph. I didnt want a speeding ticket so i stoped the race... but still dont those new LLT 3.6L V6's have like 250-300Hp??
But anyways the car is a blast to drive as it was 70* today and I could just roll the windows down and cruse. Thanks everyone for the help thus far!!!! This car is just so fun to drive when on the hi-way. Its a sleeper till that turbo spools up. Fun Fun Stuff!!
:thumbsup:

The car ran a litter richer but only could you tell on the excel log. Average 11.8 under boost. (Crusing was 15.2 AFR average without boost) So I racked up 150 miles in the last two days with it being a pretty reliable car in town, crusing, and getting on it. So thats all I can drive it for a bit as the 93 is killing me at the pump when I get gas. Might get 30Mpg on the hi-way, but only like 3Mpg when on boost!! When its 4bucks a gallon...It gets exspensive!!:mad1:

RobertISaar

03-08-2012, 12:24 AM

the 5th gens make ~300HP or more, depending on the model year.

but trust me, you're probably far head on torque.

EagleMark

03-08-2012, 12:25 AM

Sounds like fun and good weather, dam!

What are good AFR supposed to be in boost?

RobertISaar

03-08-2012, 12:28 AM

assuming a good intercooler, and E0 gasoline, i like ~12:1, maybe a little richer.

Six_Shooter

03-08-2012, 01:38 AM

air temp SHOULDN'T effect fuel trims. that is partly why the IAT/MAT sensor is present, to account for that.

hotter air is less dense, so if you didn't have enough correction for the IAT/MAT, the car would run richer.

humidity... no idea.

He's asking about in general, not with correction.

For the same amount of fuel being passed through an engine between cool air and warm air, the warmer air will usually show a slightly richer condition.

fasteddi

03-09-2012, 12:27 AM

Here you go for your entertainment.... Let me know what ya think as youll all probly laugh at me:thumbsup:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TI_iobC4z8&feature=youtu.be

RobertISaar

03-09-2012, 12:33 AM

needs moar boost gauge.

fasteddi

03-09-2012, 12:35 AM

needs moar boost gauge.

I just read the laptop. Ive spent so much $$ on all that tuning stuff and WB kit that I cant even afford a heads up guage...:mad1:

fasteddi

03-12-2012, 12:07 AM

Ok guys dont laugh at my video but heres some entertainment. The audio is horrible thanks to my new camera that i dont like!:mad1:

But it 70* in Ohio so I just had to take it for a little spin or 2.... 9.5-10psi commanded and absolutly no KR.

Be gentile now..:thumbsup:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOks7HCO9V4

RobertISaar

03-12-2012, 12:16 AM

Be gentile now

but what if i want to wear one of these?

http://www.novelties-direct.co.uk/images/D/d-7043-3097.jpeg

fasteddi

03-12-2012, 12:46 AM

but what if i want to wear one of these?

http://www.novelties-direct.co.uk/images/D/d-7043-3097.jpeg

:laugh: thats too funny!!! ahhhh no.

Six_Shooter

03-12-2012, 02:14 AM

Lol!

EagleMark

03-12-2012, 02:21 AM

but what if i want to wear one of these?

http://www.novelties-direct.co.uk/images/D/d-7043-3097.jpeg that's to funny! :laugh:

What gears you got in that thing? More gear! Sounded like it took a long time to get through first gear and barely into third at quarter mile...

And get someone to video while your driving so we don't loose you! Or you have enough mounts and stuff going on make one for the camera and drive!

fasteddi

03-12-2012, 03:49 AM

lmfao that was some funny stuff!

3.23's in the rear, yea some 3.73's would help. 1st gear was slow because it wasnt up to full bost till about 25mph(3500Rpm)You can see when the boost kicks in. It shifts into 3rd at about 77Mph so it was in that gear for a good 20Mph. Who want to make a trip to ohio and set the lash on some new rear end gears:rockon:

I dont like the way I have to start on the road when testing WOT. Cant practice any type of launch or just a big burnout will accure for a long ways. I have no idea the Hp numbers but i would think the Torq numbers are up there:yikes:

Yea I probly should mount that camera...hmmmm Ill figure something out.

gregs78cam

03-12-2012, 04:00 AM

Who want to make a trip to ohio and set the lash on some new rear end gears:rockon:

I can talk ya through it, Ive done it a time or two, know a couple tricks. I got pretty good at it after I grenaded the 3.73 within weeks of install.

EagleMark

03-12-2012, 04:38 AM

Well if it's going to be a track car you may want to consider a bigger jump in ratio? Also figure what size slick your going to end up running, get Greg to do some math... :laugh: and you should be going through the traps in fourth gear about high RPM! If you want fastest time...

Setting up gears is not to hard, some special tools are required depending on rear axle? Will have to have bearing removed from your posi and measure shims to install new shims and bearings. Look at numbers scribed on pinion gear coming out and pinion gear going in to adjust shims needed there and press on pinion bearing. If your current axle is set up, then new gears can be installed first shot if you do these things.

Six_Shooter

03-12-2012, 05:53 AM

My 1985 Jimmy weighed around 3000 lbs (looking at stock curb weights and approximating by the weight reduction of lighter heads and other removed parts and parts added, and the 3.73s were too steep for my truck, 3.42s were what I had planned to put in, just never got around to it. I did have a T-5, so I believe I had a steeper 1st gear, but I wouldn't go much more than a 3.73 in your car, unless you really want to rev quite a bit higher at highway speeds.

RobertISaar

03-12-2012, 05:55 AM

depending on what size tires you're going to end up with, i also vote no more than 3.73s...

EagleMark

03-12-2012, 06:34 AM

unless you really want to rev quite a bit higher at highway speeds.I was not considering highway speeds as this is supposed to be a race car so 4:56. But if it is going to be used for street use still then 3:73 may be good? Do you have overdrave? If so 4:11... still need a gear and tire RPM calculater...

RobertISaar

03-12-2012, 06:38 AM

http://efi.moonwell.com/gears.php

i'm a fan of that.

http://www.discounttire.com/dtcs/infoTireMath.dos

and that.

gregs78cam

03-12-2012, 08:18 AM

I made this a few years ago. It's not the best out there but I like it because it lets me compare more than one gear/tire/trans combo and puts out driveline rpm - sometimes useful.

EagleMark

03-12-2012, 08:34 AM

Another idea if this has to be highway driven at reasonable RPM and fuel milage would be max RPM through traps in third gear, then there's only 2 shifts as well. At least get all three gears used in quarter mile.

fasteddi

03-12-2012, 11:03 PM

Yes this car is going to driven on the street as well. Its not a full out track car, but still I'd like decent pass times in this car if at all possible. Thanks for the tips guys. I really though of 3.73's but I need a better rear end first. I need to call arround and get a closed rear end. Mines open and the more miles I put on it the more it doesnt even try to make posi. I could make it posi if the conditions were just right...but thats rare!

Right now if id hit the traps at say 100Mph top then my data logs are showing im turning 4900 Rpms in 3rd gear.

So I need to look at a different rear end and then get the gears to fit that series carrier. Any clue on the best thirdgen rear end to get thats a closed rear?? Gears really dont matter since id change them out.

EagleMark

03-12-2012, 11:11 PM

Rear axle upgrade would probably be a thirdgen question! There may be a 12 bolt available? What is in it? With your HP you may be able to build yours with gears and posi/locker and axles?

For my 1/2 ton Suburban it came with 10 bolt but I found a 12 bolt bolt in that is half rebuilt waiting on funds to finish.

gregs78cam

03-12-2012, 11:28 PM

Your 10bolt is probably a 7.5" or 7.625" ring gear. That should hold up to what your putting out. when you make another 100 or 200 hp or put slicks on it, then I would think about upgrading. I have a stock 8.5" rear with a Eaton Posi, stock axles, and 400+ hp. I beat on it regularly and have had no problems other then earlier mentioned, which was actually due to the original crosspin and spiders coming apart in the factory open carrier I had before upgrading.

fasteddi

03-12-2012, 11:52 PM

Yea its a lil 7.625" 10 bolt rear.. Im still thinking about the whole drivetrain thing, and im sure if it snaps..then Ill have no choice but to upgrade..LOL

fasteddi

03-13-2012, 03:36 AM

Anyone know off hand how to calculate the Dut. cy of the injectors from PW and Rpm of the motor??

RobertISaar

03-13-2012, 03:40 AM

Anyone know off hand how to calculate the Dut. cy of the injectors from PW and Rpm of the motor??

with $59, it should be double-fire, so (X*y)/600, that will make a %.

X and Y being PW in mSec and engine speed in RPM.

fasteddi

03-13-2012, 03:53 AM

Ok well If I take 11.32(my maximumrecorded pulse width) times 5500Rpms(max rpms) then devide it by 600...I get this (103.76)....Im over 100% DC??

RobertISaar

03-13-2012, 03:58 AM

Ok well If I take 11.32(my maximumrecorded pulse width) times 5500Rpms(max rpms) then devide it by 600...I get this (103.76)....Im over 100% DC??

was that pulsewidth at 5500RPM? you do have to take the values from the same sample.

but that would be a correct calculation, meaning your injectors are going static, and if you did flow any more air, you'll lean out VERY quickly.

fasteddi

03-13-2012, 04:07 AM

Wow there 30lbs injectors... man i didnt think i would max them out so fast. Crap!!!!!
I attatched the file If anyone can check it out. It has the PW and such. Was about 10.5 or so on this 1/4 WOT run. But I have seen a max of 11.32 in other logs.

fasteddi

03-13-2012, 04:10 AM

Looks like im dialing back the boost and being very careful till i get larger ones?? Crap:mad1:

RobertISaar

03-13-2012, 04:11 AM

you don't have the ADX setup to automatically output injector DC?

and yeah, lots of air means lots of fuel!

fasteddi

03-13-2012, 04:14 AM

No it doesnt say the DC on the ADX I have

RobertISaar

03-13-2012, 04:17 AM

link me to, or post up, the ADX you're using, i'll add in injector DC.

easiest way to track the peaks during the log is to make a history table for it, or watch the monitors with it selected.

fasteddi

03-13-2012, 04:19 AM

The Adx I use is attatched! Thank you so much :thumbsup:

RobertISaar

03-13-2012, 04:26 AM

there. added it in as a value you can with in the list view, and you can watch it via the history graphs as well, just setup for "maximum running" value, and plow through a log at high speed and the highest value will be displayed.

you can also put it into one of the monitors, but i didn't want to touch those myself.

fasteddi

03-13-2012, 04:36 AM

Ok it was in the steady 80-90 Dc at a WOT log to 100MPH(max 91.22 Dc). Thanks man for the help!! I cant believe im making that much hp right now.....

fasteddi

03-13-2012, 04:40 AM

Would being static cause a slight hicup in the PW?? It jumped to 120% DC for just a heart beat 2 times on that log. but no other values had that hicup...

RobertISaar

03-13-2012, 04:42 AM

witchhunter says ~320HP, using 30 lb/hr, at .5 BSFC and a DC of 90%. seems a bit optimistic to me.

of course, spark advance will have quite an effect on that.

fasteddi

03-13-2012, 04:43 AM

I though BSFC was .65 or .60 on boost applications?? On my formula I used i came up with roughly 270Hp@90% and 250Hp@80%dc I really didnt think id hit those #'s with this build so quickly??

RobertISaar

03-13-2012, 04:44 AM

Would being static cause a slight hicup in the PW?? It jumped to 120% DC for just a heart beat 2 times on that log. but no other values had that hicup...

no. for some reason the ECM calc'd out that much fuel being needed(pressure spike?). the ECM itself doesn't know or even care about injector DC, just how long the pulse needs to be.

RobertISaar

03-13-2012, 04:45 AM

I though BSFC was .65 or .60 on boost applications??

using .65, then ~250HP... seems believable, since stock was 140.

fasteddi

03-13-2012, 01:59 PM

Yea thats what I was thinking. 250Hp sounds obtainable. I really didnt think that Id hit that kind of number so soon, or I would have gotten larger injectors. I got a really good deal on these GN ones.

EagleMark

03-13-2012, 04:45 PM

TPIS had some adjustable regulaters in there listings on eBay I remember. If your borderline could you just raise presure a bit?

Then again that little blip could be running out of fuel. A new fuel filter could be in order to start. Or it may be time for a little bigger fuel pump?

fasteddi

03-14-2012, 01:54 AM

The fuel pump/filter and basically all the fuel componets including the lines were replaced about 1 year ago. Yea a bigger pump would definitly help. I logged this today and not hicups really so im not sure whats up with that issue.

Can you guys check this file/log out please? I ordered the file by injector DC then the boost pressure. It looks ok/safe "i think" to just keep the boost there and hopefully the car doesnt lean out the hotter it gets outside or ill have to add fuel and lower boost till I get the fuling raised with new pump/injectors/exc.
Thanks!!!!

RobertISaar

03-14-2012, 01:57 AM

the hotter it gets, the less fuel you need, since a hotter airmass is less dense.

fasteddi

03-14-2012, 02:00 AM

Duu.. i knew that.:mad1:

But under 85 % dc is safe correct? Thats about what I was pulling on that excel log.

RobertISaar

03-14-2012, 02:04 AM

85 is about the highest i would go.

some factory applications are actually worse, the northstar engines are a good example. they reach nearly 100% DC dead stock.

fasteddi

03-14-2012, 02:05 AM

85 is about the highest i would go.

some factory applications are actually worse, the northstar engines are a good example. they reach nearly 100% DC dead stock.

Wow 100% dc? Well Ill just keep a eye on it and go from there. Thanks for all the help and the modded ADX

fasteddi

03-15-2012, 02:20 AM

Well I broke something a few minuets ago. Heres what happendhttp://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/images/smilies/mad.gif

I was crusing arround for a bit and wanted to do a WOT pull when I was coming back down my road.

Shifted out of 1st fine, then when at high rpms in 2nd gear, I felt that brick wall effect, and let off gas immediatly. Costed to the house and once in the driveway, afrs were leaner then normal @ idle and the car was shacky unless I gave it some gas.

I checked the plugs and were ok..thank god! I believe its a injecotor that is shot?? Or mabey thefuel pump is bad but i can not check pressure at the moment as I dont have a fuel pressure tester. Gas will shot out of the shreader valve but you all know thats no way to test gass pressure.

I attatched the log from the incident, as you can see I was doing fine untill the AFR went high and I let off fast. I felt the car as if it was hitting a brick wall.

Car still runs/at least enough to move...LOL.. but i need to attend to this fast as the races start in 3 weeks and now im back to tearing the car down again... crap!!

RobertISaar

03-15-2012, 02:46 AM

can you check compression?

fasteddi

03-15-2012, 03:38 AM

I did... its good. Same 145-155psi in all cylinders. Afr is now 17-18:1 at idle compared to the 14:1 I had it set at before. I will ohm injectors out tommorow. And then fuel test, also pull a valve cover and take a peak. Any other sugestions??? Thanks man!

fasteddi

03-15-2012, 04:50 AM

Ill go and test the inject. tommrow and do some trouble shooting but if it is a injector. How good are gm ecm's at controling the ms pause of the injector. Can i go 42lbs or so and still be able to control the idle?? Or should i go 36.6lbs?? This is IF the injectors are actually the problem.

RobertISaar

03-15-2012, 04:55 AM

that ECM is capable of controlling injectors down to resolutions of ~0.0152 mSec...

also, a question comes to mind: are these hiw or low impedance injectors? and did you run them as high or low impedance?

fasteddi

03-15-2012, 02:06 PM

There hi z injectors. And I used the $59 code as high z injectrors.

EagleMark

03-15-2012, 03:06 PM

Did you pop something loose on boost side?

fasteddi

03-15-2012, 11:03 PM

Its the freaking fuel pump. No pressure at all and yes it has enough gas in it. I can actually push the shrader valve and after I purge the car, and barly anything comes out, and thats with the fuel rail out so I can see if the injectors purge.

The injectors ohmed out at 15.4 ohms@75 degree temps, all of them.

So not its on to a better fuel pump I guess.

I can even push in on the hose from the tank to the fuel rail. So little pressure that its easy to push in(soft)

RobertISaar

03-16-2012, 01:14 AM

well, the good news is that you let off on it as soon as it happened, so little chance of engine damage.

Walbro 255 or higher, IMO, depending on just how far you're trying to go.

fasteddi

03-16-2012, 01:31 AM

Its just a drop in replacement so I dont need a diffent sending unit, "I think" I am looking at the walbro 255 to replace the one thats busted.

EagleMark

03-16-2012, 04:42 AM

Is that enough to add nitrous? :innocent2:

fasteddi

03-16-2012, 05:36 AM

:rockon:no n20 but enough to make sure im getting the right fuel pressure and can go back to running 12psi:thumbsup:

fasteddi

03-20-2012, 04:01 AM

EagleMark

03-20-2012, 04:30 AM

So that whole time you were running out of fuel above 4k... that's why you thought it was low on power up there! Wait till you get it right now with enough fuel! :jfj:

RobertISaar

03-20-2012, 05:49 AM

Got the walbro 255 pump in and were good to go, but now RPM's higher then 4k are just stinkin rich 10's and very low 11's AFR. Sad face here, now I have to tune for another ungodly amount of hours to get it right again.

well, the good news is as Mark stated, now that you can actually deliver the fuel the engine wants, MOAR POWER.

also, your injector PW will obviously drop quite a bit to get the AFRs where you want them. because of that, your max recorded DC will drop as well, so you'll actually have more room with the injectors you have now.

Six_Shooter

03-20-2012, 07:27 AM

I ran into something similar on a friend's car this weekend.

He used to have a Camaro in tank pump and some Ford external pump running to his custom 4bbl TBI. Over the last few weeks he installed an Aeromotive AFPR, along with the new 4bbl TBI, and an Aeromotive fuel pump, in the tank, and removed the other two fuel pumps. I tuned it a bit last year, but could never seem to get the fueling just right, sometimes it would be rich, other times lean, and sometimes when you held your tongue just right as you mashed the pedal it would be fine. VE tables in the upper RPMs and load were in the 90s previously. Started taking fuel out in small increments, over and over again, until finally I just too a bunch out in those cells, and BAM, almost perfect AFRs under load and RPM, and boy did it pull hard, never felt that heavy slug move that fast, ever before.

I'm not saying to just pull a bunch of fuel all at once, but you may need to remove a little more than you think you do, just to see a change.

fasteddi

03-20-2012, 02:02 PM

I plan to get a few min tonight to tune, Yea the car is so freaking slow at those Higher Rpms with that rich condition.

@sixshooter, yea I have no idea how much fuel to take out in some cells as its was reading 10.1 and thats the bottom of the window so who knows if it is 10.1 there or 9.7. But ill go at it and take some fuel out in increments and hopefuly I get some results sonner then later. But thats the way tuning goes.

fasteddi

03-20-2012, 11:31 PM

Im tuning at the moment but have a question, car is having hard starts when warm, is that from too much timing when its cranking over?? Its was 20* then I droped it to 18* and still seems the same.
Thanks!!

fasteddi

03-20-2012, 11:50 PM

Nevermind, I actually added a bit and it starts better. 23* total in my lowest rpm cell on my SA table(which is the Idle table)

fasteddi

03-21-2012, 05:20 AM

Nevermind, I actually added a bit and it starts better. 23* total in my lowest rpm cell on my SA table(which is the Idle table)

Well the car started well with the added timing because it cooled down..so im back to square one on the hard start when the car is warm
:mad1:

Tommrow Ill go and take a crap load of timing out and get it to arround 14* or so and see if that helps.

@ sixshooter if you see this post, my lowest Rpm line is 600Rpms in the F1 table, IIRC you said to use the 400Rpm one, so since my 600Rpm row is the lowest thats the one to use correct?? Thanks again

If that doesnt help the situation does anyone have any ideas?? Car start really fast when cold but after a nice long datalogg its hard to start but still starts and runs fine, it just takes longer to initially start.

I got up to about 13psi of boost today and was scared to go WOT since I saw some KR, so tommrow I might get some time to further tune. Damn boost is addictive!! And with that new fuel pump im only pulling 70-75% DC on the injectors now!!:rockon:

EagleMark

03-21-2012, 05:27 AM

Is it like stopping the motor when turning over? Like to much timing? Or weak battery? Or are fuel lines getting hot with new plumbing?

Six_Shooter

03-21-2012, 05:35 AM

Yeah, 600. I must have been thinking about the VE table. Sorry 'bout that.

fasteddi

03-21-2012, 02:05 PM

Is it like stopping the motor when turning over? Like to much timing? Or weak battery? Or are fuel lines getting hot with new plumbing?

Its not stoping whne turning over. Its just cranking for a noticalby longer time to actually fire up after the engine is hot.

When its cold=cranks for only a second and fire up.
When its Hot=cranks for about 5 seconds to fire up.

@sixshooter, its ok man about the F1 RPM value. Your knoledge on the $59 has saved me 100+times.

RobertISaar

03-21-2012, 08:44 PM

not that i'm a $59 expert or anything, but there should be a table that modifies cranking PW based on coolant temp.

EagleMark

03-21-2012, 11:18 PM

Is id flodded when started hot?

I've heard a lot of people complain of longer start time after a conversion and I think there is also a RPM setting for crank to run. But I like it! It actually get's some oil flowing before ignition fires off and combustion begins. Unlike there points and carb which would fire up under one reveloution and hear rods knock till it got oil...

fasteddi

03-22-2012, 01:12 AM

I need to read up on the start up values for the Bin as im lost at this point but Ill look and see.

fasteddi

03-22-2012, 01:14 AM

I do see a crank AFR vs. coolent temp for example 20 degree C is 7.00 and 92 degree C is 11.00.. any ideas?

EagleMark

03-22-2012, 01:20 AM

fasteddi

03-22-2012, 03:36 AM

More fuel/AFR to start when colder, it's part of choke. But 11 AFR at 92C sounds pretty rich? But there are so many things that go on and qualifiers that have to be met to use this or that table sometimes your adjusting the wrong thing...

to be honest I have no idea but it is definitly rich at start up when hot. I changed those AFR vs coolent in the hot areas up to 13-15 AFR and didnt help. So i just called it a night.

Did video tape this though, I have the 12.5 Psi tune well and it was 80 degrees out so thats a good taste of a summer tune.

Enjoy the video and I have to do some more digging on the $59 hot starts.
roling to about 85Mph http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVvHjhffmC8

EagleMark

03-22-2012, 03:45 AM

fasteddi

03-22-2012, 04:02 AM

Video was cool! Sounded way faster with enough fuel! :thumbsup:

Hot start rich? Hmmm... Six is the man with $59. I know TBI had a fuel adder at start up... sure you don't have an injector leaking now that you actually have more fuel and pressure? You'll find it!

Yea its funner and faster, I got some hear wrap to keep those temps down under the hood this afternoon.

About the $59, there is just so much in there for start up that I dont want to keep changing things, that arnt helping. I change one thing then it doesnt work, so I change it back. Its flustrating as im sure you know.

Im not sure if i have a leaky injector. I just made sure they all primed when I put it back together. And checked the fuel pressure and it was Ok.

EagleMark

03-22-2012, 04:25 AM

Always save abackup bin, your up to speed to make more then one change, but if you see a differnce you need to find which one. Always have a backup bin!

fasteddi

03-22-2012, 04:43 AM

Always save abackup bin, your up to speed to make more then one change, but if you see a differnce you need to find which one. Always have a backup bin!

:thumbsup:

Six_Shooter

03-22-2012, 06:34 AM

I have a different hot start problem, mine goes lean at hot start, and it's not a EFI issue, it's a poor engine design issue, with the intake manifold and fuel rail directly above the exhaust manifold, which boils the fuel in the rail, causing a lean condition at hot start.

fasteddi

03-25-2012, 03:11 PM

Well I havent fixed the hard start problem, bud did get to tune WOT yesterday. That Fuel pump sure did make a difference.

Im still taking fuel out at 5k and higher RPMs. I averaged 10.8 AFR above 5k rpms.

I went though and did the excel math for the cells and now my Ve table looks more like the rocky mountains each time I tune. I think its like this because Its hard to hit all the cells when in WOT.
So I was thinking that I should smooth some of the cells out? One cell will have a VE of 79 for example, then the one right next to it will have 91. But Ive never hit that 91 cell so who knows how rich it is.

Any thoughts?? Just seems like I take the same path when WOT. But does it even matter if the Ve is smooth if the car doesnt run rich/nor excessively lean. Give the car what it wants correct??

G-teched a 14.98@99.8Mph. Car was a rocket till I went rich, I could feel it slowing down. But no KR which is always a good thing.

Six_Shooter

03-25-2012, 03:43 PM

That's why I tune manually.

Most of the time I any auto tune used, you end up with a mountain range. There are things like AE and PE that can effect what the calculations would be.

JeepsAndGuns

03-25-2012, 03:53 PM

Whenever I did my fuel maps, I always adjusted the cells I had data for, then all the cells I didnt touch were either higher or lower than the ones I did adjust. So I simply manually moved them to match the rest of the map, and tried to match any other trends (either upward or downward slopes, etc)

fasteddi

03-25-2012, 03:59 PM

That's why I tune manually.

Most of the time I any auto tune used, you end up with a mountain range. There are things like AE and PE that can effect what the calculations would be.

I didnt use auto tune, but he method I use is probley the same. I might get a chance to drive the car today and see if it helped. I just keep taking fuel out and out on those Higher Rpms. And having less resolution really makes the Ve table look rocky....

Six shooter, did you ever use the spool up mode on $59? Does it help at all when launching from a dead stop?

Six_Shooter

03-25-2012, 06:46 PM

I don't believe spool up mode is currently active in the V18 bins, I believe that's a V24 or V25 feature that is under testing.

fasteddi

03-25-2012, 06:48 PM

I don't believe spool up mode is currently active in the V18 bins, I believe that's a V24 or V25 feature that is under testing.

Ok, I just saw it in the flag and scalers lists on my Bi/xdf, so I wasnt sure how to use it or if it works.

RobertISaar

03-25-2012, 06:55 PM

when you can't hit every cell, interpolate and extrapolate.

a correctly tuned VE table will be fairly smooth.

fasteddi

03-25-2012, 11:45 PM

Major major issues here.

The car just doesnt want start, and I didnt even do anything to the car. I believe its in limp mode because I have to push the peddle to the floor to start it and then let off and it barly idles. Also I cannot connect the laptop to the Ecm. I checked all connections to the ecm, also the zif adapter and even burned a different chip incase I shorted the chip out from static elec. I only have 2 chips one is really old, and the newer one has been burnt a good 3-400 times at least.

I can do the paper clip thing because Im a idiot and removed the check engine light years ago. But I doubt that would help me anyways as it still wouldnt tell me anything.

I even removed the adapter and tryied to start it with the normal eprom, knowing its going to be rich from the injectors and it actually connected but it was way way off as it was the $59 code stuff on the stock $88 code. So who knows if that was lip mode or just fail safe mode as alot of stuff is different from the stock $88 So Im not sure if my adapters messed up or if the 2 chips I have are just junk....or I slightly killed the ecm somehow.

RobertISaar

03-25-2012, 11:54 PM

odd.... kinda sounds like a dead/not properly programmed PROM/bad connections to PROM.

since you were able to connect with a factory MEMCAL, the ECM itself sounds fine, it's gotta be your PROMs or their connections to the ECM.

fasteddi

03-25-2012, 11:56 PM

Ok well i dug out the old $88 stuff and the car runs/ not good. But beside the fact it conects right and works well. This is the original memcal by itself..

Is there a way to test the chips??? Ohm them out or anything? Thanks for any advice!

RobertISaar

03-26-2012, 12:03 AM

the only "testing" i do to a PROM is to erase the chip, verify it is erased, program it with whatever tune i'm running, verify it programed correctly, then use it.

fasteddi

03-26-2012, 12:16 AM

Ok heres where im at and now im more confuesed then ever!

I tried a older bin and to my amazement it connected and it also ran, like crap but it worked and no error codes?? Any ideas why one bin file I have doesnt want to work anymore?? Its no big deal but I wana learn why something like this would happend?

Also it ran bad because it my original starter bin, it was the first one I clicked on thinking it wouldnt work anyways...LOL

RobertISaar

03-26-2012, 12:37 AM

do a compare of the differences between the BINs, see what changed. if you notice any changes that aren't defined, that would be a big issue right there.

fasteddi

03-26-2012, 12:58 AM

Ok will do thanks!

EagleMark

03-26-2012, 02:43 AM

Go back to last bin and see if it is OK. Then what did you do to it? It may be a mistake in the XDF which caused what Robert said...

fasteddi

03-26-2012, 03:06 AM

Go back to last bin and see if it is OK. Then what did you do to it? It may be a mistake in the XDF which caused what Robert said...

Finally I figured it out. It was the chip. Heres why:

When I tried a older bin I used a 29C256 I had from a while ago and it worked. Now I though it was the bin that was messed up. So I tried the older bin on that 27SF512 chip Ive been using and sure didnt work. So after a few more tries on different bins and such Im confident its the chip. Who knows how many times Ive shocked the chip with static. And I do remember a few times that I would read weird values when data logging so Id burn the chip and it would be fine again. I bet I burned the chip at least 300-400 times and probly more then that. Crap I burned it 10 times today before it went to crap.

And eaglemark you know how many times I burned the chip when I was messing with the $88 and it would take me 8hrs to get one thing right.....:mad1:

But anyways, ill be ordering some chips, moates is always a friend when I need stuff like this. And the car runs fine with the older 29C256 chip. But I like to have spare chips in case of problems like this.

EagleMark

03-26-2012, 03:27 AM

Darn cheap chip only lasts 4-500 burns... sure you had your offsets right?

RobertISaar

03-26-2012, 03:33 AM

has a data retention of ~100 years though...

the AM29F040 is supposed to last ~10,000 burns, but only retains it's data for ~10 years.

i think, at least. it's been a while since i looked at the datasheets for them.

fasteddi

03-26-2012, 03:38 AM

fasteddi

03-26-2012, 03:39 AM

Darn cheap chip only lasts 4-500 burns... sure you had your offsets right?

Yea there right, i never have had a issue with them. The burn2 from moates is so easy my wife could burn a chip:yikes:

Six_Shooter

03-26-2012, 04:54 AM

Yeah, I was wondering if the offsets were right too.

Time to buy an Ostrich. ;)

As said, occasionally something can go wrong when when saving a bin file. this is why I always save any changes to a new bin name, that way I can go back to known good bin, if need be.

gregs78cam

03-26-2012, 05:20 AM

I had issues a couple of times with burning a chip, check engine light on, read chip and all $FF, or $00. I eventually narrowed it down to a bad USB cable. You might try a different one.

EagleMark

03-26-2012, 05:52 AM

As said, occasionally something can go wrong when when saving a bin file. this is why I always save any changes to a new bin name, that way I can go back to known good bin, if need be.V1, V1.1, V1.2, V1.3, V1.4, V1.5, V1.6 etc... :thumbsup:

By now he would be at V565.3... :laugh:

Six_Shooter

03-26-2012, 06:28 AM

Yeah, I'm trying to come up with an easy and straight forward way to name bin files.

So far I've use the V1.1, V1.2, Vetc...

I've used dates as in 25312 (today, 25/03/12), then a time 1124 (11:24).

I've tried a combination of the above.

I've tried using initials, or short forms of names for bin names. I.E. first and last initial of the person's name that I am tuning for, and other variations.

I've even used the vehicle name, along with a brief description of what I changed I.E. datsunV12011moreAEBPWincrease.bin Obviously this last one wasn't very efficient.

So far, a combination of person's initials, and version and/or date/time has been working best.

EagleMark

03-26-2012, 07:15 AM

I always start a vehcle with it's own folder and copies of XDF, ADX, BIN. When ever I make a change to bin I edit XDF paremeter with a "+" and a note. Works good.

fasteddi

03-26-2012, 02:11 PM

V1, V1.1, V1.2, V1.3, V1.4, V1.5, V1.6 etc... :thumbsup:

By now he would be at V565.3... :laugh:

Yea no kidding... :yikes:I just named them by the date and then the number that day. (march25/6th chip) Is a example. I Did write a description in the past but once I started burning off 10-15 chips in a tuning session I just made it short and easy as possible.

Im just going to have to brake down and get a ost. from moates. And try to sell off this burn2 on a forum. Im so tired of running inside to change a chip.:mad1:

Six_Shooter

03-26-2012, 02:45 PM

Keep the BURN2, it's nice to be able to read PROMs that you come across, and to be able to program a final bin to an EPROM. ;)

EagleMark

03-26-2012, 05:21 PM

He's totally obsessed and addicted with tuning! I doubt there will ever be a final chip... :laugh:

Unless he was thinking the Orstrich was an AutoProm. Then he could sell his burn 2...

fasteddi

03-26-2012, 10:39 PM

He's totally obsessed and addicted with tuning! I doubt there will ever be a final chip... :laugh:

Unless he was thinking the Orstrich was an AutoProm. Then he could sell his burn 2...

I thought whith the Orstrich I could make in car changes to the eprom? Basically re-flashing the chip in the car without ever taking the chip out of the ecm???

Yes I will admit I AM addicted to tuning, there will be no final chip until.....I dont know when.:mad1:

EagleMark

03-26-2012, 11:34 PM

fasteddi

03-26-2012, 11:47 PM

The Ostrich is an emulator you plug into where your chip goes and your bin file is in TunerPro and you make changes to your bin and commit to change and it is done live. So when done... if ever... you need a Burn 2 to burn a chip and drop in.

AutoPtom is an Ostrich, Burn 2 and a cable all in one unit.

Ahh i see!

Do you have any thoughts as to why all of the sudden my car is boosting so fast? Like really fast as to where i need to majorly tune the DC of the boost controler and such. Ever since I went to a dif. chip is spooling up super fast?? Not that im complaning, crap I can spool up 11 psi in a 2 or 3 seconds compared to 5-6 seconds from a dead stop last week.

I also did fix my BOV yesterday as I suspect it was leaking...

RobertISaar

03-26-2012, 11:53 PM

leaking BOV could have done it.

otherwise, spark and fueling can have quite an effect on spool times.

not saying it's a good idea since it is really rough on the exhaust valves and manifolds, but running REALLY retarded timing will cause a lot more heat(and therefore pressure) to be present, causing the turbine to spin up quicker. richer AFRs will tend to do the same thing.

fasteddi

03-27-2012, 12:05 AM

My AFR coming into boost is about 14 at 0psi then 12.5 and lower in all boost levels, never under 11.5 and never over 12.5 in any recorded cells. My timing is def up there, I think its too high now as I see KR. Not a ton but a few * is there. My timing at 10psi was 18* and never did I see KR before but now I do.

I just changed the DC of the boost controler and it slowed it down but I never went WOT to see if it was over boosting. Need to get rid of the KR first.

EagleMark

03-27-2012, 12:07 AM

You may have done something to the tune which resulted in what Robert is talking about. Can you go back a few tunes to where you were? Sometimes one change does nothing and 2 changes does way to much! Sometimes you've made so many changes that the next affect everything!

fasteddi

03-27-2012, 12:13 AM

Good news is I got the boost to spool up and not spike too much and took timing out to stop the KR. Bad news is my power steering braket is broken. Thankfully it broke while it was idleing. My luck is horrible when it comes to this car.:mad1:

fasteddi

03-28-2012, 01:32 AM

Im pretty much fed up with this tuning. I swear no matter what bin I use something is wrong. Either the car hunts one time, then the next it falls on its face when going into WOT, or it shows a ton! of KR but doesnt make it till 5-6 psi. It will make a little KR but it continues even when im off the gas and gets up there 5-6*. How do I check the off sets of the file to burn it to a chip? Any Ideas? I guess its not the chip making me have all of these problems

And also all of the bins im using are good and were tested many times, with lower boost levels... so I know its not the tune messing it all up

EagleMark

03-28-2012, 02:47 AM

http://support.moates.net/2010/04/05/programming-chips-using-offsets/

fasteddi

03-28-2012, 02:55 AM

Thanks!! My offset are correct then. I just took it for another drive and it works well with one bin. It just needs to be adjusted because it over boost like 1 1/2 PSI and that a lot when im commanding 12psi. Im crossing my fingers that if I mod that file that it will work still....

EagleMark

03-28-2012, 04:14 AM

Have you used the difference tool in TunerPro to see what/why/where something is going wrong? If it's just a chip change that does it that kind of rules out a mechanical issue?

fasteddi

03-28-2012, 04:14 AM

Thank the tuning gods, it is better. Heres some videos. Gotta love my commentary. Sorry I get bored when driving!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3JeiYjolGc&feature=youtu.be
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nft8WDIKKNM

EagleMark

03-28-2012, 04:33 AM

You know you can record data and play back to watch dash right?

Your having way to much fun with this boost thing... :happy:

fasteddi

03-28-2012, 04:40 AM

You know you can record data and play back to watch dash right?

Your having way to much fun with this boost thing... :happy:

Yupppers, I just wanted the ppl that are into tuning to see whats going on when I floor it. Really, I just am having a little too much fun i guess...:yikes: