Any an all advice is appreciated!

[dnarby]

So, I bought myself a vehicle with a GM 350 TBI conversion and what I was told is a 460le transmission. Looks like it came off a donor vehicle (not an aftermarket TBI).

The previous owner screwed with it by removing some of the "excess" wiring harness from the vehicle it was transplanted into until it lost spark and fuel. There may also have been some improperly secured wires on the TBI harness that grounded out (he said there were some sparks from the box it the ECM and fuse blocks were put into) while he was "improvimenting" it.:rolleye:

I am new to working on TBI (have a very similar setup in my K1500, but never had to work on it!).

I tried to used the BCC pin find utility here http://gearhead-efi.com/BCCFind/ but it appears to be busted. The blue cover on the ECM says AMTT, I was hoping I could identify which ECM it is so I could identify pinouts and get it wired up properly.

I hotwired the coil (jumper wire) to power it and it fired on starting fluid, so it appears I have spark (I will verify this). Have not had time to attempt to hotwire the fuel relay and check for fuel yet.

I realize I may have to go to a junkyard and grab a whole 'nother ECM and harness to make this run again, but it would be nice to see if I can rescue it, as it was running previous to the "improvimentations".:mad1:

Thanks in advance,

Dave

[notime2d8]

Just a little bit of help. Since it controls the transmission as well, a 4L60e, it should be a PCM from 94-95 the wiring for this is close amongst the different PCMs that year with a few differences. 16197427 is the most popular and should get you going if you search for a wiring diagram for it.

[Six_Shooter]

Recheck the BCC.

That BCC comes back as a 1227747 ECM, which does not control the transmission shifting. It will however control the TCC, as long as a correct VSS is connected.

Posting pictures of the ECM, with the MEMCAL/PROM cover removed will help identify it as well.

Is it possible that it's a 4L60, which is just a later non electronic version of the 700R4? Maybe the seller was trying to make it sound like something more or newer than it really is.

A 4L60E will have a rather large electrical connector on the passenger side of the case with the connector point up. A 700R4/4L60 will have a small 4 pin connector on the driver side about mid way along the length of the case also pointing up.

[dnarby]

Thanks, but I don't think that's my ECM. The plugs don't look like the one here:

http://frugalmechanic.com/auto-part/ac-delco-16197427-engine-control-module?p=frugalmechanic_google&gclid=CJOHnriW_swCFVhahgodftsFrg

Mine are two different sizes, I'm guessing 24 and 32.

Can verify this tomorrow.

Appreciate the help!

[Six_Shooter]

A '7747 has two different sized plugs, 24 and 32 pin. So it sounds like you either have a '7747, which is most likely from the BCC you posted earlier or a 16147060, that also has 24 and 32 pin connectors but the connectors are brown. This trans was also paired with a 4L80E trans, not the 4L60E.

[dnarby]

Wow, you guys are great. Seriously!

I'll pop the cover of that chip and take photos tomorrow, and also see if I can identify the transmission. In the meantime, this is the only thing with the system that had a legible label left (the one on the ECM was worn off)

10546
Also, I'm a noob to TBI - I assume VSS stands for Vehicle Speed Sensor, but what does BCC stand for?

Thanks!!!

[dnarby]

Also, 16127487 was stamped on the inside of the ECM cover.

[Six_Shooter]

Wow, you guys are great. Seriously!

I'll pop the cover of that chip and take photos tomorrow, and also see if I can identify the transmission. In the meantime, this is the only thing with the system that had a legible label left (the one on the ECM was worn off)

10546
Also, I'm a noob to TBI - I assume VSS stands for Vehicle Speed Sensor, but what does BCC stand for?

Thanks!!!

Yes VSS = Vehicle Speed Sensor.

That oart you have pictured is called a DRAC (Digital Ratio Adapter Controller I believe the acronym stands for. It's what takes the VSS signal that is a magnetic 2 wire deal (AKA VR - Variable Reluctor, not Virtual Reality LOL), and converts it to a single wire pulsed output. The fact that this is there is a good sign that there likely is a functional VSS in the vehicle.

Yes get those pictures and we can guide you better.

[dnarby]

OK, here's some more info. I was told the donor motor came from a Silverado. Here's pix of some partz:

ECM plugs
10549

ECM Chip with cover off
10550

Modules and/or Flux Capacitors on the left side of TBI
10551

Distributor and coil
10552

Driver's side transmission pan. Yellow/Gray wire pair goes back to the DRAC.
10553

I didn't have time to jack it up a bit to get a better look at the transmission, can do this later to identify.

Many advance thanks!

[Six_Shooter]

That's a 16147060 PCM.

You transposed the BCC (BroadCast Code) incorrectly, AWTT makes more sense as it is for the '7060, which does control an electronic trans, my notes are saying it was originally used with a 4L80E, but the picture of your trans pan does really look like a 4L80E. I also have not come across an application that used a '7060 with any trans other than a 4L80E. It might be possible for that combo to work, but IIRC there are some differences in how an 4L60E and 4l80E are controlled. The bin is also for a 5.7L. Getting better pictures of the trans and the connections to it will help identify what you have more easily.

IIRC the "flux capacitor" is the EGR control solenoid. There should be a tube going from it to that valve located behind it in the picture.

[dnarby]

Whoops, I must have tried to read that BCC code upside down from the picture, thanks for catching that.

It's really tight under there, so trying to get a good look is challenging.

BUT, the 4L80(e) seems to have 17 pan bolts... And the 4L60(e) has 16... So I'll get a chance to jack it up Wednesday, count the bolts and hopefully get some better pictures.

What other connections would you like me to get pictures of?

Many thanks.

[dnarby]

Some more observations and pics. First, the pan has 17 bolts.

Pan pic:
10557

Passenger side label pic:
10558

Driver side connector pic, purple/black twisted wire spliced into a yellow/gray pair and goes back to ECM
10559

Pic of serial # on driver side near rear of transmission:
10560

No electrical connections observed on passenger side, only driver side, and only that one plug.

Will be back this afternoon. Thanks in advance.

[dnarby]

Everything matches the transmission here (ID tag is in the same place, same for electrical connectors, 17 pan bolts) http://www.moveras.com/TechnicalSupport/QuickReference/TechnicalSpecs4L80E.aspx

So it looks like I lucked out and got the better transmission!

[Six_Shooter]

It looks like it could be a 4L80E from that pan picture. There needs to be a rather large electrical connector on the driver side, as shown in the pictures in the link you posted. That's what controls actual shifting.

The connector you have a picture of looks like one of the shaft speed sensors.

[dnarby]

Based on the number of pan bolts, the position of the connector, and the location of the ID tag, I'm pretty sure it's a 4L80E. Circle on the bottom of the pan matches similar pans found in a web image search (some aren't flat, others are and they have that circle indent near the back).

[dnarby]

OK, if I check the wiring against this:

http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?317-16147060-PCM-Information-85&p=6957&viewfull=1#post6957

and it matches, then I will have most likely verified I have an 16147060 PCM, correct?

[Six_Shooter]

It's already verified that you have a '7060 PCM. That's the ONLY PCM that GM ever produced with brown plugs, in that configuration.

[dnarby]

Roger that, tomorrow I'm going to trace wires according that diagram and see if anything is amiss.

Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance.

[dnarby]

I inverted the colors so I can print them out and more easily make notes on them. This might help someone else, so I'm putting them here (I don't want to put them in the main ECM/PCM diagram section as I'm new here and don't want to mess with someone else's kitchen).

1056310564105651056610567

[dnarby]

OK, so it looks like the previous owner punked this TBI setup pretty well.

I'm going to have to go through the whole thing, pin by pin and verify each connection is correct and possibly wire each one up again.

For instance, if I'm reading it correct, C1 is supposed to be fed 12v via an a 10A fused ignition wire. Right now it goes NOWHERE.

I'm probably going to need some real basic wiring advice here. I'm basically starting from scratch.

[Six_Shooter]

Yes, C1 is the ignition input, and without that the engine won't run.

[dnarby]

OK, I'm going through every single connection, and rewiring everything from scratch. Here's why, take a look at the existing wiring:

10588


10585

10586

10587

The original lunatic who wired this (and had it running) appears to have cut the fuse block out of the donor vehicle (allegedly a Chevy Silverado), wired everything into it with a lot of extra wires, and stuffed the whole thing into an old ammo box.

The wiring harness plug had a lot of black tar-like goo squirted into the ends of the connectors which was getting all over everything. It was a freakin' mess, so I took some notes, cut the whole thing away, and cleaned everything. I'm about 3/4 of the way through tracing all the connections, labeling them, and wiring them into the remaining portion of the fuse block, and making sure everything that's supposed to be fused has a the proper fuse. So far everything looks good (wiring harness seems OK, no shorts), there's only a few I haven't verified as good because they go back to the transmission and I'll have to jack the car up to check them.

Now, I need some hand-holding here, as I have never wired a vehicle before (I have a working knowledge of simple electrics/electronics, e.g. I know how to use a multimeter to check for continuity, resistance and voltage, what resistors, fuses and relays do, etc.).

There doesn't appear to be a relay to run the ignition system. It appears as though the ignition feed wire (last key position before CRANK), simply sends power to the fuse block which then passes current through the fuses to the ignition system (computer and coil). I've identified the fuel pump relay, and what looks to be either the fan relay or the headlamp relay, but no ignition system relay.

Obviously, I don't want to pass current through the switch directly if it's supposed to go through a relay as I'll probably need a fire extinguisher (if I'm lucky).

Is there supposed to be an ignition relay to power the ignition? Thanks in advance.

[Six_Shooter]

That black goo is a typical thing found on GM connectors. It's supposed to insulate the connectors from moisture.

Typically in GM vehicles up to the early to mid '00s (depending on the car line) the ignition switch fed the ignition circuits directly, so that's also a normal thing to see. However, it would be a good idea, especially on an older vehicle/retrofit to add a dedicated ignition relay. Last year as I was chasing a couple issues on my own car I added a relay for the injectors, another for the ignition, and one for the starter. My idle got smoother and it appeared the car pulled smoother and harder after adding the relays that were fed directly from the battery and controlled by the ignition switch.

[dnarby]

OK, the vehicle is a '92 (and the donor motor/TBI system is likely the same vintage) so then direct power from the ignition switch to the injectors/coil/ECM is not unusual, that's good to know.

I have a big bag of 30A relays, I'm guessing if the ignition switch had enough capacity to power the ignition circuits/injectors, a couple of 30A relays should be plenty to power the ignition circuits and the injectors.

Going out to check and rewire some more, many thanks for the help.

Once I get this running I'll reveal the vehicle, it should give any gearhead a chuckle (I'm chortling at getting this on the road myself). :innocent2::cool:

[dnarby]

IT'S ALIVE!!! :rockon:

Last wire to connect was the main coil feed, once I figured that out, it popped right off. Vroom-vroom! There's still a few wires left unidentified, but maybe they aren't necessary.

Lots left to do, still haven't road tested it yet to make sure it shifts OK, have to get it inspected (needs a windshield, which I have), probably needs the rotors turned, maybe a pad slap, need to verify the fan is working, check the rear diff lube, snug up the leaking transmission pan, rig up some sort of temp gauge, some bits of interior/exterior trim, etc. etc.

Plus I'll have to put a proper muffler on it, as right now it has a cherry bomb, and it's practically like straight pipes.

This is what the 350 lives in:
10589

Yep, that's a Volvo 740 wagon, 1992 vintage.

I have a set of front and rear sway bars for it, so when I'm finished it will actually handle really well. I also have a set of over coil springs so when I'm done I'll be able to haul around 1000lbs in the back.

Not to mention it has a tow hitch. Since the drive train came out of a Silverado, I should (in theory) be able to tow 1000lbs more than one, because it weighs 1000lbs less than one!

I see a lot of ricers getting their fart cans blown off in the future.

Thanks for your help Six - identifying the ECM, having the schematics for it, and someone with experience willing to help gave me the confidence to tackle this.

[dnarby]

OK Six Shooter, I need a bit more help if you're willing... I'm trying to figure out how the coolant temperature sensor is supposed to be wired into the ECM, and how the fan control is supposed to work.

If push comes to shove, I can use the temperature switch in the Volvo radiator to trip a relay and run the fan. I don't see anything on the wiring schematic about running the fan relay though. Also, there's three heavy gauge wires going into the fan. Red to positive and green to negative run the fan in the proper direction. There's a third black wire though, and that ran back to the fan relay power. Any advice here?

Also, from what I've read, the ECM uses the temperature to control mixture so it's important for it to know what temperature the engine is at.

The coolant sensor seems to be between spark plugs 1 and 3. It has a single blade connector running into a wire that leads back to the general location of the ECM (currently not connected to anything).

I ran D3 to a common ground. D16 doesn't seem to come out anywhere, there's no unconnected yellow wire coming out of the harness. Can I splice the wire coming from the sensor into the wire going to D16?

Thanks in advance!

[Six_Shooter]

The '7060 does not control electric fans, so you will need to use other methods to control the electric fan. I do not know about your 3rd wire on the fan, might be dual speed, might be for some other reason.

The ECM needs it's own coolant temp sensor. This is generally located in the intake manifold near the thermostat housing, and is the best place for it from my experience. It will be a two pin sensor. The ground for the sensor is connected to the sensor ground (D3).

D3 does not go to a ground, it provides ground for sensors, to isolate noise sources from sensors and provide a known good signal reference. D16 should ONLY be connected to the CTS, so there should be no splicing, or tapping into any other wires.

[dnarby]

OK, thank you.

The fan is probably dual speed. I will read up on those.

EDIT: The CTS I'm looking at is evidently for the GAUGE, per https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=un2neiiNk8c

I'll get a chance on Friday to locate the the ECM CTS and attempt to hook it up correctly.

Also, I verified this thing does in fact have a limited slip rear. Just blipping the throttle barked both rear sneakers. Looking forward to having a fun car again (haven't had one in a long time). :jfj:

Thanks in advance.

[dnarby]

Hi Six_Shooter,

Turns out I didn't ground D3 to a common ground (that was C8, I wrote that in error).

Did some more checking, located the actual ECT (it's to the left of the thermostat) and found that D3 and D16 when traced back to the ECM are *reversed*, that is the black wire from the sensor leads to the yellow wire at the ECM plug, and vice versa.

From my re-reading on CTS's function, it likely makes no difference how it's wired (sensor has no polarity, it just increases in resistance as the temperature rises). Correct me if I'm wrong though..!

Otherwise, motor starts and runs great, seems to shift fine too... Although it's near impossible to tell a low speed shift from first to second in the parking lot I'm working in, as this car is so light for it's drive train..! Down shifting from second to first is quite noticeable though. I have a bit more work before I can get it inspected and on the road, 3rd and 4th will have to wait.

Thanks in advance,

Dave

[Six_Shooter]

That is correct the function of the CTS will not be changed with those two wires reversed.

[dnarby]

OK! Been tinkering with this for awhile in my spare time (to get it street legal, install fan solenoids, oil/temp gauges, replace rear diff fluid, etc.). Finally got it out on the road, and it's a really fun car to drive, EXCEPT...

It does not shift out of second. First to second, second to first is fine, operates in drive or manually. Previous owner said it shifted normally, so I'm guessing I don't have something hooked up somewhere. At least I can still drive it around town, LOL!

If anyone could point me in the right direction to troubleshoot this I will be indebted.

[dnarby]

Two things that could be important to know:

I basically rewired the ignition and fuel system from scratch using the schematic.

When installing a mechanical oil pressure gauge, I removed the distributor. Although I was careful to mark it before removal, on re-installation I was off by one tooth and it wouldn't idle, so I turned the distributor until it did. I assumed as this has an electronically controlled ignition, it could just be 'close enough' and the computer would adjust for it. It currently runs strong & smooth in first and second.

[89S10_Project]

What a great project. I've been considering building one of these myself.

The fan is a dual speed unit, likely from a Taurus. Black is common, and you get two speeds- 1 for each of the other leads.

I'd use a SPAL fan controller relay, can provide a part number if you like. There is also a Volvo factory part, not sure what it came in though. You want more than just a 30 amp relay, as inrush current is in the neighborhood of 70 amps with the Taurus fan.

If you can take a pic of the fan I can verify the above. I used the Taurus fan assembly in the first version of my build, to cool a similar drivetrain (5.7/700R4) in an S10 Blazer. It worked well enough till the fan ate the radiator (my fault, I only had a quarter inch of space between the two and knew I needed more). The fan controller worked fine but the pigtail I had was broken and I had no luck locating a replacement so I went with the SPAL controllers and a less power-hungry dual, dual-speed, fan assembly out of a 97 Intrepid, which fits my stock Chevy S10 4.3L V6 radiator like a glove. Fun fact, the 4.3 radiator is actually larger than the recommended 80's Vette radiator which was recommended for the swap. So far it cools the truck without issue, though admittedly I have yet to commute long-term with it (truck has been laid up for about a year with cascading suspension projects- I ordered tires thinking I had clearance for 35s... I didn't. It was then a series of projects to go spring-over-axle, highsteer, etc). I have an alternator that is nominal at the moment, and I've got the parts on order to install an (145+ Amp) AD244 in place of the (105 Amp on a very good day) CS130 in order to keep up with my winches and comms gear. I will be completing that this weekend and using the truck as my daily driver starting Monday.

As for the trans, it may come down to you missing a shift solenoid wire or two in your rewire job. Google, and Youtube, are your friends. I suspect you know this, though. A shame you don't live in the Charleston, SC area- I'd love to help with this.

You may consider buying the Jaguars That Run swap manual as a sort of reference point for backengineering the build for future reference. That's what I did (they have multiple swap books for Chevy truck engines into S10s, Jags, Datsun 280ZX, Volvo sedans, Chevy Astros, etc). Additionally they have a seperate manual for upgrading to TPI, that I'm ordering soon.

[dnarby]

Hi 89S10_Project,

The fan is a Volvo, and I've got it mostly sorted. 30A is fine for each speed (I used an inline fuse holder to test it, it didn't blow a 30A, so should be fine). I'm using a Haynes temperature sensor to run one relay, and will use a switch to run the other. This way if it gets too hot or the Haynes unit fails, I can flip a switch.

I started reading and thinking about how these electronic transmissions work and agree with you, I probably missed a connection in the rewire. Going to look there first.

It's a fun car to drive, gobs of torque compared to a regular Volvo wagon. Sounds good when you punch it from a standing start too... :rockon:

[89S10_Project]

Hi 89S10_Project,

The fan is a Volvo, and I've got it mostly sorted. 30A is fine for each speed (I used an inline fuse holder to test it, it didn't blow a 30A, so should be fine). I'm using a Haynes temperature sensor to run one relay, and will use a switch to run the other. This way if it gets too hot or the Haynes unit fails, I can flip a switch.
Be advised- I've been modifying vehicles for quite some time, and the Haynes thermocontroller units are known to be not very dependable. I'd keep a close eye on things, or if you're more inclined to build it and forget it, go with the SPAL- they're relatively inexpensive as well (though you will need to work in a sense mechanism- I like the BMW dual-zone temp switches, personally).


It's a fun car to drive, gobs of torque compared to a regular Volvo wagon. Sounds good when you punch it from a standing start too... :rockon:

Don't I know it! My truck still isn't tuned completely, but I have plenty of torque down low, right where it's needed. Plus, as you mentioned, there's that growl/howl as you get on it from low RPMs- very much akin to one of those old car chase movies. I'm actually curious what it is that makes that sound- I'd always heard it was the secondaries kicking in on a carb'd engine, but pretty sure we don't have secondaries in a TBI. Regardless, I love it!

[dnarby]

Be advised- I've been modifying vehicles for quite some time, and the Haynes thermocontroller units are known to be not very dependable. I'd keep a close eye on things, or if you're more inclined to build it and forget it, go with the SPAL- they're relatively inexpensive as well (though you will need to work in a sense mechanism- I like the BMW dual-zone temp switches, personally).

Agreed, and I put the temperature gauge front and center so as to easily keep an eye on it (although I eventually to relocate the temp sender as it's near where the heater core valve should be and reads ~15degF cooler than the temp at the radiator). I may eventually wire up a "COOLANT RELAY FAILURE" light, as the relay will be DPDT (DTDP?) so that when the relay isn't tripped, I can wire it so a light will come on (although that may prove annoying as it will oscillate on and off).

Either way, I have a secondary relay I can flip a switch to turn the fan on with as well.

[89S10_Project]

Agreed, and I put the temperature gauge front and center so as to easily keep an eye on it (although I eventually to relocate the temp sender as it's near where the heater core valve should be and reads ~15degF cooler than the temp at the radiator). I may eventually wire up a "COOLANT RELAY FAILURE" light, as the relay will be DPDT (DTDP?) so that when the relay isn't tripped, I can wire it so a light will come on (although that may prove annoying as it will oscillate on and off).

Either way, I have a secondary relay I can flip a switch to turn the fan on with as well.

Interesting idea. I will use cheap relays for non-critical systems on my vehicles, but the critical stuff gets Bosche, at least- and typically rated at twice the current they're handling.

[Nasty-Z]

Or simply parallel relays to provide a fail safe ......

I like the idea of a fan in operation light , I have two in the switch panel in my Blazer , one for each fan. Only thing they will not tell you is if the motor craps the bed , that is what the Water temp Pro lite is for .

As for the trans , are you sure there is a definite 1-2 shift ? Only reason I ask is default gears on a 4L80E is second and reverse with no operation of the shift solenoids , meaning no power (+12v) to the trans , or no communication with the PCM and the trans.

TOM

[89S10_Project]

Hey OP, pay attention when Tom speaks up. He's a sharp one, has helped me out more times than I can remember...

[89S10_Project]

dnarby-

Any developments on this project? I keep thinking how much fun can be had with an old Volvo Wagon with the rice around here...