LS computer ('0411) running a Small Block Chevy

[dave w]

My progress on this project has been slow. The budget has been tight for this project, and I've cut many corner$! I got the engine running for the first time today. I don't have a radiator on the engine, so I've only run the engine few times for 30 seconds or so. The engine is a rebuildable core that has a rod knock, so I'm not sure it will hold 5000 RPM's for the crank position learn?

Here are some pics of the project so far.

dave w

[1project2many]

Neat.

I wouldn't try a 5k run without coolant and the test may require coolant temp at normal operating temp anyway. A thermostat in the manifold and garden hose directed to the water pump inlet will provide cooling without keeping engine too cool. I wonder if the actual sensor position could be measured and the values manually written to the vcm?? And don't forget there's a distributor offset value which needs to be set after the crank learn. That one only requires TPS to indicate WOT for an update.

[dave w]

I can set up a radiator. Here is a pic of my engine test stand with a BBC.

dave w

[EagleMark]

Cool test bench!

I know the LS ECM/PCM/VCM? is far superior but does it really do anything for an old engine? Just the software and license per vehicle keeps me out of that market.

I've been saving my pennies to buy a RoadRunner from Moates just so I had rights to buy TunerCat OBDII software, it was sold to Jet and is marketed under name Dynamic Sprectrum Tuning and I had one, but after a wasted day of tech support I used 2 licenses, never got the car done and Jet would do nothing about my loss of 2 licenses on one vehicle and never got even one tune? So they suck! I just gave up and sold it. Nothing compared to EFI Live. Least when you own TunerCat OBDII and buy each definition there's no per vehicle licensing, still have no data logger. I'd rather spend the money on TunerPro to cover OBDII stuff now that would be cool!

But now there's an TunerPro XDF for LS computer being developed, don't know if the adx is done too? Moates and TunerPro are working on flash utility to write to VCM I read on another website?

[dave w]

I like my EFI Live system. Yes, my EFI Live system was expensive, but I found a decent price on a used EFI Live system on Ebay. The MPFI project has taken a few turns in direction. This is actually the second system I've built. The first system I build was sold to a BB Chrysler owner.


I really can't say if the sequential system is a huge improvement for an older SBC. What I can say, is the system I built can be installed underhood as a stand alone system, operate a 4L80E, and is completely bolt on! Maybe this system does not appeal to the budget EFI system buyer? Compared to aftermarket EFI systems, repurposing a LS PCM as a bolt on system for an older SBC has merit. I'll also comment, it would not be that big of a change to make the system pictured operate an actual LS engine!!

dave w

[EagleMark]

All good points, I like the underhood part! As time goes on you'll be way ahead in the learning curve.

Can it do 4l60E or 700R4? I know it came with manual trans...

The LT1 system is all underhood and would make for a great conversion system if it could be made to run a regular EFI distributor, if you can do it with LS computer it's probably easier. Cheap software, Flash by ALDL port. But there's just not alot of OBDI LT1 available. Only 2 years and all the cars they came in are desirable so not many end up in JY. Then 2 more years OBDII. Where your getting in on ground floor of a system that will become more and more available as time progresses.

[dave w]

All good points, I like the underhood part! As time goes on you'll be way ahead in the learning curve.

Can it do 4l60E or 700R4? I know it came with manual trans...

The LT1 system is all underhood and would make for a great conversion system if it could be made to run a regular EFI distributor, if you can do it with LS computer it's probably easier. Cheap software, Flash by ALDL port. But there's just not alot of OBDI LT1 available. Only 2 years and all the cars they came in are desirable so not many end up in JY. Then 2 more years OBDII. Where your getting in on ground floor of a system that will become more and more available as time progresses.

Yes 4L60E.
No 700R4.

I think the future of the LSx computer is promising.

dave w

[EagleMark]

Got to be away to just lock up a converter on 700R4? I mean if it can do the other 2?

Yes LSx is coming, this old OBDI stuff is getting rarer by the day. But theres an entire section of Vortec PCMs we seem to forget that should be now coming in abundance? Or are they worthless for conversions? I know the CPI has issues with poppet valve imitation of MPFI... but the rest of motor was great.

[one92rs]

here is something neat.
http://www.eficonnection.com/eficonnection/24x.aspx

[dave w]

Got to be away to just lock up a converter on 700R4? I mean if it can do the other 2?

Yes LSx is coming, this old OBDI stuff is getting rarer by the day. But theres an entire section of Vortec PCMs we seem to forget that should be now coming in abundance? Or are they worthless for conversions? I know the CPI has issues with poppet valve imitation of MPFI... but the rest of motor was great.

700R4 might be possible for the '0411, but I have not invested the time to figure / find out how.

The downside to the Vortec PCM (very abundant / cheap) is the lack of software!!!

dave w

[JeepsAndGuns]

Nice work. I too am with mark and just cant afford or justify the high cost of the tuning software for the 411. Otherwise I would be building a 411 system for both my cherokee, and the 4.0 in my wrangler.

So untill there are more affordable options for the 411, I will be sticking with the 7427 in my cherokee, and the stock ecm in my wrangler.

[dave w]

here is something neat.
http://www.eficonnection.com/eficonnection/24x.aspx

Nice stuff for sure! Basically, the system I designed is completely bolt on (no removal of the timing cover from the engine) and is only a fraction of the cost of the EFI Connection system!:thumbsup:

dave w

[one92rs]

guess i need to pay attention as how you are doing this. i have a friend with hptuners and is good with it. i would love to have the coils and a ls pcm running my small block.

[dave w]

guess i need to pay attention as how you are doing this. i have a friend with hptuners and is good with it. i would love to have the coils and a ls pcm running my small block.

I am using the 4 tooth (low resolution) trigger wheel. To use coils, the 24 tooth (high resolution) trigger wheel is required. Basically, the EFI Connection 24x system is a good option to do coils. Maybe in the future, I'll design a bolt on high resolution system.:rockon:

dave w

[1project2many]

The downside to the Vortec PCM (very abundant / cheap) is the lack of software!!!

Really???

Weren't people buying Tunercat's OBDII Winflash for doing OBDII uploads/downloads? There's a nice disassembly of a black box Vortec cal on thirdgen.

[dave w]

Really???

Weren't people buying Tunercat's OBDII Winflash for doing OBDII uploads/downloads? There's a nice disassembly of a black box Vortec cal on thirdgen.

From the TunerCat's website,

C.A.T.S is pleased to announce that Jet Performance Products has licensed our OBDII Tuner program and as of April 25th 2006 will the exclusive distributor for the software under the product name JET Dynamic Spectrum Tuner.

From the Jet Website:


http://www.jetchip.com/images/Icon_DST.jpg (http://www.jetchip.com/Dynamic_Spectrum_Tuning.asp)
Dynamic Spectrum Tuning:

JET offers a wide range of Dynamic Spectrum Tuners for your vehicle.

For more information about our selection of Dynamic Spectrum Tuners click here (http://www.jetchip.com/JET_Chips_Modules.asp#BM3).


DYNAMIC SPECTRUM TUNERS - Designed for the performance enthusiast who wants total control of their vehicle's programming, the JET Dynamic Spectrum Tuner is a powerful tuning package. JET’s DST software provides you with the tools needed for precise performance tuning using your laptop or PC. Use of this software will give you the ability to modify virtually every aspect of the vehicle’s programming.

Stock programming from the vehicle is initially downloaded and saved to your PC using the supplied JET interface cable that connects to the vehicle’s diagnostic port. The stock programming can be reloaded to the computer at any time to return the vehicle’s ECU to its original state.

The comprehensive, easy to use software allows extensive modification to the vehicle’s software. This allows control of fuel and spark tables, speed and rev limiters, transmission functions, torque management tables and many other functions. Modifications are made using detailed table and graph views for easy and accurate parameter editing. Your modifications are saved as a new file and downloaded to the vehicle’s computer.

DST Gas Part # 14005 Programming Options Include:


Fuel parameters including power enrichment and volumetric efficiency
Ignition tables including spark advance versus load, knock retard and more
Transmission shift points, shift pressures, and TCC apply and release
Diagnostic tables including fuel and air, ignition and emissions controls
Speed calibration tables to correct speedometer and shift points
Idle controls, fan temperature settings and torque management tables
Raise or lower speed and rev limiters
Disable factory diagnostic trouble codes

To see all of the available features please try our full demo version!

DST part number 14005 will program the following vehicles:
1996-2000 GM Trucks & SUV's with Vortec 4.3, 5.0, 5.7 & 7.4L
1999-2006 GM LS1 Trucks & SUV's with 4.3, 4.8, 5.3, 6.0 & 8.1L
2002-2005 GM/Chevy Envoy & Trailblazer 4.2L
2002-2004 Oldsmobile Bravada 4.2L
2007 Sierra/Silverado Classic w/ LS1 4.3, 4.8, 5.3 & 6.0L
1996-1997 Camaro, Firebird, Corvette & Impala SS LT-1
1997-2004 Camaro, Firebird & Corvette LS-1
1998-2002 Camaro, Firebird 3.8L
2004 GTO LS1
2004-2005 Cadillac CTS-V

DST part # 14005 will allow you to program 4 different vehicles from the list above. Licenses to program additional vehicles can be obtained from JET directly for $100.00 per vehicle. To obtain additional licenses call 800-535-1161.

Click Here to Download the Free Gas Demo Version (http://www.jetchip.com/downloads/DST_Tuner_Setup.zip)

New! DST Gas version 1.50 is now available. Contains support for several 1998-2005 GM passenger cars. Check application listings for your vehicle. Download the update from the products section on the homepage or click here (http://www.jetchip.com/downloads/DST_Updates.exe) to download now.

DST Diesel Part # 14006 Programming Options Include:


Fuel tables and boost parameters for improved performance and mileage
Correct speedometer after making gear ratio or tire size changes
Modify top speed limiter and engine rev limiter settings
Glow plug settings for improved cold starting in cold weather
Disable factory diagnostic trouble codes
Injection timing and rail pressure settings
Torque management and abuse mode parameters
To see all of the available features please try our full demo version!

DST part #14006 will program the following vehicles:
2001-2005 GM Duramax 6.6L LB7 & LLY Diesel Trucks

DST part # 14006 will allow you to program 4 different vehicles. Licenses to program additional vehicles can be obtained from JET directly for $100.00 per vehicle. To obtain additional licenses call 800-535-1161.

Click Here to Download the Free Diesel Demo Version (http://www.jetchip.com/downloads/DSTDieselDemoSetup.exe)

Minimum PC requirements:
While the DST program will run on virtually any PC running Windows 95 or later, we recommend the following minimum PC specifications:



Pentium 266
Windows 98
64 MB RAM
800 x 600 display resolution
20 MB free hard drive space
9 pin serial connector or 9 pin USB to serial adapter compatible with your operating system
















dave w

[1project2many]

Right! I've had the OBDII tuner since shortly after it was released and I've always had mixed feelings about the JET sale. But that's the tuner. The flash uploader is a separate program and runs separately.

Oh nevermind. TC has removed winflash OBDII from the list of available programs. That's too bad.

[EagleMark]

Yup the only way to get it now is if you buy a RoadRunner from Moates, guess they had rights to sell TC OBDII before horible decision to sell to Jet.

I have Winflash for my OBDI LT1. Need a good software hacker?

[JeepsAndGuns]

Would there be any reason or benifit to those black box vortec pcm's Vs's the 7427 running mpfi?
The local pull a part is chock full of those black boxes.

[dave w]

Would there be any reason or benifit to those black box vortec pcm's Vs's the 7427 running mpfi?
The local pull a part is chock full of those black boxes.

At this point in time, I see no benifit to the Black Box Vortec PCM. There are several original equipment Black Box vehicles, that have been updated to the LS PCM. It's my understanding the tuning software for the LS PCM is better developed, and the LS PCM is a better computer.

dave w

[1project2many]

My take is this: The black boxes are an underhood pcm. They're very plentiful used and they're available cheap. Demand for the 0411 is high enough that my local pick a part never has any but the black boxes are being used for chock blocks and hood props. Retrofit applications could benefit by having a low cost, underhood, weathertight pcm and short harness which will work with manual transmissions and the 4L60E / 4L80E slushbox. We've got applications in our fleet which have 300,000 miles on the original black box pcm so I'd have to say it's at least as reliable as the old TBI systems. A low cost uploader / downloader plus a good set of definition files would find a very quick market.

[JeepsAndGuns]

Thats kinda what I was thinking. If it ever was to happen, I would probably just go straight to the 411.
Mabey by the time I can afford the tuning software, I wont need to, as hopefully tunerpro will support it. :)

[dave w]

Thats kinda what I was thinking. If it ever was to happen, I would probably just go straight to the 411.
Mabey by the time I can afford the tuning software, I wont need to, as hopefully tunerpro will support it. :)

There is TunerPro support for the '0411. Download the zip to check it out. Now all that's needed is a low cost flash tool.

dave w

[EagleMark]

Right! I've had the OBDII tuner since shortly after it was released and I've always had mixed feelings about the JET sale. But that's the tuner. The flash uploader is a separate program and runs separately.

Oh nevermind. TC has removed winflash OBDII from the list of available programs. That's too bad.Well it's still availble on Moates site... but I think you need to Buy a RoadRunner to get it? Maybe not? $280 for software and cables...
http://www.moates.net/winflash-tunercat-cable-and-reflash-software-for-rtobd2-users-p-115.html?cPath=67_55

[1project2many]

$200 is the cost of a new CAN bus cable
$80 is the cost of one definition file.
I wonder if we can guess how he's selling it. :)
I'd contact Craig before it's gone.

[EagleMark]

It was licensed to sell with RoadRunner only. You can buy all TunerCat OBDII still if you buy a RoadRunner. $599 for RoadRunner, $280 for Winflash and cable, $225 for TunerCat OBDII with one def $1750 with all defs, then you still have no data logger, EFI Live FlashScan data logger only $499. So $1600 to start for one car and $80 for each additional def. Maybe cheaper if there was a differant Data logger for OBDII... but cost of EFI live is high but good software but $125 per car license before you can tune?

So when will TunerPro go OBDII? I'd rather pay for it!

[gregs78cam]

For OBD2, I have been using this: with the free software for scantool usage, but you can order the $70 software also that looks a lot like TunerPro. In fact I had got the unit it in hopes of getting the ELM327 Plug-in to work between this and TP, but have not had time to figure it out.

http://www.obdpros.com/product_info.php?products_id=133

I have used it on our '99 Grand Am, '01 Subaru, and a buddies '02 Neon.

[dave w]

I decided on EFI Live because of the free trial software to learn with. The trail software included about a dozen .pdf files on how to use EFI Live. I shopped on Ebay for many weeks, and got a used EFI Live system less one license for discounted price much less than a new EFI Live system. EFI Live has excellent documentation.

dave w

[EagleMark]

I'm not doubting EFI Live, I have a version someone leant me, it's incredible software. I just don't see much profit in tuning when it costs $125. per vehicle to start...

I could buy a RoadRunner to tune LS engine live, then burn the cal back to LS computer. $1750 for TunerCat OBDII with all defs, Flashscan scan only would be best data logger. So $3000 and I'm in OBDII business with no per vehicle license... ouch!

3 years ago I barely got a call for OBDII, now I pass on $1500 a month in OBDII tunes... my kid is going to get a shop to do his off road builds, has so many jobs for roll cages, suspension, bumpers and rock sliders. I just don't have room to do all his work and any of mine at home anymore. So we've been talking of going a little bigger... with the economy like it is, it's scary to try an open a shop nowadays!

[JeepsAndGuns]

For OBD2, I have been using this: with the free software for scantool usage, but you can order the $70 software also that looks a lot like TunerPro. In fact I had got the unit it in hopes of getting the ELM327 Plug-in to work between this and TP, but have not had time to figure it out.

http://www.obdpros.com/product_info.php?products_id=133

I have used it on our '99 Grand Am, '01 Subaru, and a buddies '02 Neon.

Hey that looks pretty sweet. How do you like it? I have been been looking for a obd2 scantool that uses a laptop instead of those handheld gizmos. Untill you posted that, I hadnt really found one.

[gregs78cam]

It's pretty basic, but you can see MAP, TPS, O2s, fuel trims, and read/clear codes. All I really need so far. I like it. If it can be made to interface with tunerpro I will like it a WHOLE lot more.

[JeepsAndGuns]

Sounds good. I would like to be able scan OBD2 if the need comes up. The 99 grand cherokee I bought a couple months ago is obd2, I figure one day I will get a check engine light on it.

[dave w]

The video's of the 0411 running the SBC.

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff290/buildabot2002/0411%20SBC/th_0411SBC-1.jpg (http://s239.photobucket.com/albums/ff290/buildabot2002/0411%20SBC/?action=view&current=0411SBC-1.mp4)

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff290/buildabot2002/0411%20SBC/th_0411SBCCrankPosition.jpg (http://s239.photobucket.com/albums/ff290/buildabot2002/0411%20SBC/?action=view&current=0411SBCCrankPosition.mp4)

dave w

[lsxxx]

Hello Dave,
Are they for sale now?

[dave w]

Hello Dave,
Are they for sale now?

I have a new design, I moved the crank position sensor to the distributor, see attached pics. Works on the bench test!:jfj:

The distributor cap is not pictured, but it mounts on top of the crank position sensor housing.

dave w

[lsxxx]

Hello Dave,
Thank you for your reply.
So, are they for sale? LOL.
I've been thinking about this conversion for a while.
The EFI Connection 24X is nice but I want to run a distributor and keep my aluminum timing cover.

[dave w]

I could build another prototype like the one pictured. Send me a Private Message for details.

dave w

[lionelhutz]

Have you tried that one in car yet Dave? I've read rumours about EFI Connection attempting to put 24X wheels into distributors and into the Optispark but not having much luck.

[dave w]

Have you tried that one in car yet Dave? I've read rumours about EFI Connection attempting to put 24X wheels into distributors and into the Optispark but not having much luck.

Not tested on a vehicle yet. Based on my experience with the harmonic balancer 4x trigger at the start of this thread, I'm very confident the 4x distributor (actually 8x) mounted crank senor will work to about 6000 RPM's. The challenge I'm working through is production and pricing. The cost of machining one part is almost the same as having 10 parts made all at once. Once the machine setup is done, then machining 10 at time is not that much more tool time. The sensor housing pictured is 3D printed with glass filled nylon, that is rated to about 300 F, which should be fine for under hood temperatures. I simply could not afford a one of a kind custom billet machined aluminum sensor housing. The 3D printed sensor housing was nearly $200 each. I revised my design 3x, so I've spent almost $600 to figure out a sensor housing design. It is very unlikely anyone pay what I have spent to date on this venture? The cost saving side for me on this venture, I didn't have to pay someone to do the CAD. I did all the CAD myself. I've considered using a Large Cap HEI base diameter for a 24x (48x distributor) system. The challenge with the distributor mounted crank trigger boils down to how fast the crank sensor can read the trigger wheel. The sensor trigger math goes something like this; the distributor trigger wheel is about 60% smaller in diameter than the factory crank mounted trigger wheel. The distributor trigger wheel is 8 tooth, so the inches per second speed passing by the sensor mounted in the distributor is nearly 2 times faster compared to the inches per second speed of the crank mounted trigger. I hated homework when I was in school, this kink of homework is FUN!:thumbsup:

dave w

[dave w]

Close, but not close enough.:mad1:

More time and money to fix.:thumbsup:

see attached pics

dave w