Confused about mods effecting stock bin

[BigBanks78]

1990 2.3l quad 4 Dohc 16 valve 5 speed in a fiero

Is there anyone out there that can give me an idea of why the stock ve table is way rich. The mods I did were port matching exhaust to the stock 4-2-1 header, (exhaust ports were very necked down!!!) made them more aerodynamic too. Only cleaned up intake ports.

I understand and header will scavenge and it will be flowing a lot more air due to larger ports but having a little trouble under standing what these changes did to the engine characteristics. The ve table looks completely different! And wondering what other parameters are going to b way the heck off. Raising injector pw seems to do good but lowering accel enrich seems to do good too? Will opening exhaust lower need for accel and power enrichment.

Basicly asking how a pro with a lot of experience would start this tune and what they might expect the engine to do or how it changed?

Thank you for your help!!!

[steveo]

lets see your old vs new ve table

[1project2many]

Assuming you didn't forget a vacuum line to the pressure regulator, is there any chance you inadvertently reduced airflow into or out of the head?

[BigBanks78]

I get some up in a bit. I have changed some others I'll put up too.

[BigBanks78]

I got a microscope on this thing and not finding anything mechanical. I can't see anything, idles at 30+ kpa but in origanal car intake was behind radiator cooling fan so MAT was probly always 150+f now it's in the back of a fiero getting close to outside temps, intake ran out rear fender. I could have screwed the ports up, the way they flow?!? But don't think so???
hadnt had much time to get on here but I'll show u what I think is weird I a couple hours

[BigBanks78]

The blue lines are the completely stock bin file. I think mat is measured in Fahrenheit not Celcius though! The advance in mat timing makes Blm go as much as 4 blocks lean where stock Blm goes as much as 15 blocks rich. And the change starts to happen at 75-78f.

[BigBanks78]

My tables r not perfect but close except 2000-2200rpm 30-50 kpa is still 121 Blm and 2400-3000rpm 30-50kpa is 118-123blm. Upper rpm 4000-5000 shoul b fairly close but not sure above that.

[Xnke]

Opening up the exhaust ports was probably a bad move. If you've really opened up the port and smoothed things out and gain a lot of low-lift flow, you will get a lot of exhaust gas reversion into the chamber, which will mean the intake can't pull enough air in to burn the intake fuel charge.

That'll result in the stock VE tables being extremely rich.

[BigBanks78]

I am working with a low out put engine, big valve head. I ported the exhaust like I did because the high output head has much larger exhaust ports.
If there is reversion and the intake valve are not the restriction, it can be fixed by opening the intake manifold runners or air intake system like filter, intake tube or larger throttle body right ? I can weld aluminum and fabricate whatever so I can make a bug tube intake manifold.

I am learning how to tune with this set up, but, I will b supercharging this engine, so I probly just need to figure out which compressor I'm gonna use and do it right? Sounds that way to me anyway. I guess I wanted to get the hang of it first. I have a supercharger off a 3.8l Buick, but also have a supercharger off a c230 Mercedes's that only suppose to work at low speeds so that will be paired with a turbocharger if I use it.

I had this thing running great end of last summer (tuned it in 100degree weather) but cold weather moved in and messed with tune or I lost a file somehow. It was fast enough to scare me a lil so I know it has power and that's why I'm so frustrated.

[BigBanks78]

Sorry I also added 10 degrees timing on whole table and a couple more degrees in high kpa... I haven't boosted yet because I'm driving it to work and back until I get all the boost parts together, I cobble all the parts I need before I start something.
Anyway thanks for the info, I will be checking stuff again with exhaust reversion in mind! :-)

[Xnke]

Which Mercedes unit? Do you have photographs of each blower?

They're both Eatons, one is probably an M62 (but could be an M45) and would be basically the same as the Cobalt SS unit when fitted to your 2.4L quad four. It would be the better fit, but you would need to either lock the pulley on all the time or change it for a non-clutched one. I think you can pick up the non-clutched pulleys on Ebay now, actually.

The 3.8L is *probably* an M90, and would be somewhat laggy when driven to the same boost pressure, but that may be acceptable if you are street driving, as it returns better fuel economy on the highway and at low throttle positions.

Supercharging an engine must be done as a *SYSTEM* not as a collection of parts. It's taken me 6 months to assemble my supercharged V6 for the truck and it's not in the frame yet.

Just as suggestion, but DO NOT modify the car you rely on for daily transport to your day job...it WILL bite you in the ass every chance it can until you're 90% sure it's done and perfect, and most employers aren't sympathetic to the "motoring enthusiast"...

If you're planning to boost a quad four, the first thing to do is a plan. Your plan seems to change almost daily, from reading your posts. If you'd like, PM me here and I'll help you lay out a plan that will be workable, tailored to your goals and then you can start a thread on what you are actually going to be doing and how you plan to do it. It will be a great help to the guys here who are trying to help you out, and will help things go a LOT smoother!

Anyway, back to your current problem.

Why did you add 10 degrees of timing to the WHOLE table??? That's a LOT of timing in some areas, and can really kill your torque output, if it isn't detonating away your pistons! Too much timing REDUCES torque by making the piston work to come up the bore. I'd pull that 10 degrees right back out again. If you have not modified the combustion chambers, there is no need to alter the factory timing table at this stage of the game.

If we suspect reversion (I do) then step one is to run the engine around the block a few times at varying RPMs, then park it, and pull the intake manifold. Check your ports for black soot blown up into them, measure how far into the manifold it goes, and then scrub them till they are clean aluminum, ports and intake manifold. You should see very little soot-almost none-if you are not experiencing reversion effects. I would not expect to see soot past the intake manifold flange if there is no reversion *problem*, but you might see some soot in the valve bowl and the deeper parts of the intake port, depending on how hot the factory cams are. Now that you know if you still suspect reversion, you can make another run, through the whole RPM range at WOT (might need to do that in a low gear going uphill to load the engine enough not to go straight to jail....) and check your ports again for soot, take measurments, etc and compare them.

Next, measure the intake port diameter, cross sectional area, and measure where in the port the minimum cross section is at-the tightest point in the port. Then, you need to know the valve diameter, and the inside diameter of the valve seat and the valve bowl itself. You need the same data for the exhaust port-both the stock port and your newly modified port. Also, some photos will be handy in figuring out if you've killed exhaust flow or if you've improved it with your porting. Most of the time, your exhaust port exit should be *smaller* than the header flange hole, you want a small step on the exit of the port to help kill reversion effects.

If you've improved your exhaust, you may need a well-matched header to take advantage of it. Let's get you going in the right direction (where the engine wants MORE fuel, not less!) and then take it from there.

[Xnke]

Also, are you absolutely certain you got your camshaft timing exactly in the factory position? That could make exactly the same kind of difference!

[BigBanks78]

Very interesting!!! Ok on porting, I left exhaust ports maybe 3/16ths all the way around smaller than header, read polishing ports creates heat so went over with sand cloth rolls after porting. I have pics before and after I will find. I will be indexing cams soon, I have to drill a hole in cam covers to do so though but I have extras :-) My dad built a Oldsmobile 403 some yrs ago and found the stock roller cam from a late 80's 307 to be 10 degrees retarded [center line I think] past what cams are usually, he said for passive egr. He took the 10 degrees out and started over and he said that fixed what ever problem he was having. So that's where indexing the cams idea came from, after I read ur post about reversion. Hopefully that's it because this engine, 1990 2.3l actual Quad-4, has no egr valve but has all kinds of egr parameters in bin??weird!!!!

I added 10 on timing table because there was no power and no knock, I added little more in places that r dipping in ve. Adding more timing in 2000-2200rpm 40-60kpa really perks the engine up. I have set power enrich timing back to stock because just what u said, sparking before piston comes up, feels like deceleration when pe comes in.

I usually spend a lot of time figuring out what I'm gonna do to a car, I just grab stuff I may need if it's cheap. I have the whole 99 c230 car, cost me $150 maybe. Got 3.8 supercharger for less than $50 at a salvage yard new year sale.
I have 5 cars, I know all about working on ur daily driver :-) I switch back and forth but my regal gets 6 miles or so to a gallon so don't drive it much :-))

Anyway runnin out of time I will get those pics up and tell u more in a lil bit. Thanks bro

[BigBanks78]

Header is same size as gasket. I'm going to run a bore scope down intake and try running with out filter and intake tube to see if there is a restriction some where, hopefully I didn't leave a rag in it.......
Oh and I'm all over the place because this thing is confusing the crap out of me, I don't know what more than half the parameters do (most don't do what I think they should) and I apparently don't know the correct terminology to ask a question that relates to what I'm experiencing with car :-) plus wife and kids run me ragged. And my computer skills suck! I asked about how to make a spreadsheet for the xdf I'm using, someone told he how I just haven't had time to sit and relearn xl.

Im usually pretty good at collecting parts for my projects but it take me couple yrs some times to get them all. I had my fiero for at least 7 yrs before I started on it, bought a grand am for engine and stuff, striped what I thought I needed and had that stuff for 3yrs, munchie 5 speed is brand new, traded a Saginaw for it several yrs ago and have been getting little interior and body stuff along the way. I'll read urs again and answer what I missed

[BigBanks78]

I won't be supercharging anytime soon, I would like to learn how to tune with this the way it is (so I can put mpfi on 455 in my regal) if I melt pistons in this 4cyl it's not a big deal I have another in storage building, and to drive something that gets fairly good gas mileage (with as much power I can get) while I get stuff for regal. I didn't think tuning would make me want to shoot myself in the face :-)

[BigBanks78]

I did check several times the time chain position, the chain is stretched of course but is less than half a spocket tooth. I was concerned but didn't have the money at time I was replacing couple valve seals (long story as out gasket kit) and didn't thing it was enough to condem chain.

I I found some before and after pics of head and took some of supercharger and turbo, turbo #says its from a 340hp flat 6 air plane engine. Benz charger is still in car.

[BigBanks78]

Pic of intake is all most exactly like mine except mine has a larger plenum. Runners look small too!!! I will get the before and after pics of head up in a bit. The intake ports on the head look larger than that intake by a good amount, I wish I would have put a tape measure in the pic!!!!!

[BigBanks78]

Ok so I can't get the pictures off my old phone and it won't load the to this site.

The pics of intake ports look like they are bigger than the exhaust ports after I ported them.

Question; this .bin has egr parameters and egr spark correction tables, I also read that the cams need to stay as matched pair for emissions. Are these things for passive egr?? Because there was no egr valve on this engine.

I am also replacing timing chain, tensioner and stuff. Having a low oil pressure issue when heat soaked, suspect cam towers are warped, head was but heat straighted, hopefully they didn't mill it to much, making timing chain to long, gonna find a high volume oil pump too if I can.
Wil index cams while I have apart to see exactly what I'm working with.

[BigBanks78]

I have this thread saved on my phone so when I replace cam towers, chain, oil pump ect I will take intake off and check out what you are saying about measuring black in intake. Clean and run again. It has a 4-2-1 stock header but 1 and 4 tubes are not same length as each other or 2 and 3 which are equal. Should I make an equal length 4-2-1 exhaust, it would b easy! The intakes are equal.

Anyway thank you for replying and helping sorry it takes me so long to respond!!

[BigBanks78]

Ok so I didn't turn off egr when I tuned ve table. But here are those pics 10590 10591 10592 10593 10594

[BigBanks78]

10595

[BigBanks78]

10596 10597

How do these affect the other tables? Do they add to the spark table and injector pulse width??

[BigBanks78]

Does this chart mean that the crankshaft is advanced 15 degrees? If so that would be for passive egr and the reason I have egr parameters but no egr valve??
I have a 1990 vin D
10634

[1project2many]

GM changed the position of the DIS notches in order to improve starting. AFAIK they did not change the crank / cam relationship so the crank is not actually advanced. The EGR tables generally reduce fuel when EGR is active but unless the EGR is active, the tables won't be used. If you have no EGR then disable the EGR in the .bin and use the VE and timing tables to tune with any "passive" egr built into the engine.

[BigBanks78]

Ok that makes sense :-) I'm still not sure how all these tables, parameters ect ect work with the ve and spark tables but I get the egr stuff now. I'm guessing it will be the same with other pids that deal with spark, ve and bpw, adding to main tables??

I'm still confused about the correction tables. What does a high number of correction do compared to a low number of correction? Like when a table has a high number of correction at a low coolant temp and as the temp climbs the correction number value gets less and less, for example the ae correction vs coolant temp? Does that mean it's adding more fuel at higher correction value than at lower correction values?

[1project2many]

Generally fuel corrections add fuel when cold and remove it as the engine or air temp warms, except that some of the earlier cals added fuel at the highest engine temps to help cooling. AE correction should decrease as intake and engine temperature warms because warmer air is less dense and contains less oxygen.

[BigBanks78]

This 1 does get really rich when hot. I was reading about mods people have done on quad4forums.com and found some using 170*f thermostats, my info says stock is 195*f so I used the stock temp. I have a 160f thermostat (couldn't find 170) and a very large aluminum radiator in it as of last weekend, fan turns on at 75*C off at 70 or so. I'm really just playin around till I get time and space to swap cam towers. Driving it around the last week in 95-100*f fairly humid weather I haven't had the crappy drivability, crappy power and back firing when shifting after its heat soaked but I didn't see it get to 200 degrees, 188-195 before. Of Coarse oil pressure doesn't drop as low either after about ten miles on highway. Anyway stupid me for running a marginal cooling system, hopefully that will solve an issue or two some where else.

I figured that was how they worked but without someone telling me I would be assuming and that gets me in trouble Plus my brain won't let me work on an assumption!

[BigBanks78]

Haven't had time to swap timing chain and stuff yet but read a thread where guy said timing was voodoo so I been playing with timing. I started over with HO 5 speed been bout a month ago and swapped in my timing tables and VE tables. I have got timing table way different and have got the VE table higher than stock in a couple areas. The HO VE table was quite a bit lower than the LO VE table I started with but HO looks to have lil more BPW, I haven't learned much about pulse width yet. I'll post the compares in a bit.

[BigBanks78]

10791107921079310794
1st timing, mine compared to stock LO auto trans + 6 miles traffic history. 2nd mine compared to HO 5speed. 3rd mine to LO auto. 4th mine.....with knock retard set at 0, I watch knock history table!!! It reads 1 knock even from a missed gear retard stays on till cycle key off. It runs pretty good with only intermittent knock. No constant knock in any 1 cell, I can drive it hard with no knock if I don't mis a gear (my shift pattern is upside down :-)
10797107981079910800

[BigBanks78]

Ok got cams degreed. Intake opens at 36 degrees btdc and exhaust closes 24 degrees atdc. Cams both have 3.77 lift, exhaust cam has 266 duration and intake cam has 274 duration zero to zero. I drilled out the hole in intake sprocket for retainer pin, it just so happens that small block Chevy offset cam degree bushings fit, so I retarded the intake with the most offset bushing. The cam cover is easy to remove so I can change pretty quick, I've read these engines don't like low rpm so gonna try this see what happens.

[BigBanks78]

10840Chevy offset bushing
10841I used dial on cams on bench and marked back side of tower, just opening, full lift and just closed.
108421084310844And then a helicoil GRRRR!! Last tower bolt of coarse
10845Ok forgot about oil pressure problem. These are 1989 and 1990 towers. 1990 (mine) the all aluminum tower has wallowed out lifter bores. 1989 towers have iron lifter bores, the lifters don't wiggle in the iron bores. Lots of lifter rock in aluminum bore!!!
10846
10847

[BigBanks78]

BTW those measurements are by no means exact!! But I did take great pains to get the marks on cam and cover as close as possible!

[BigBanks78]

Oops I did wrong camshaft, still thinking v8 pushrod motor. Retarded exhaust instead