help with vortec and 4l80 swap please

[jamiewilson]

so im new to the whole tuning stuff and everything and would like to learn more.
im going to be starting on a swap in the next month or so i have a 1987 v20 chevy pickup with a tbi350 that im redoing. im doing a vortec head swap on it and a 4l80 swap too. i have a complete 1992 chevy with the 4l80. so what my plan is is to take the computer, wiring, tranny and anything else ill need to make it work.
im just uncertain on how to make it work and what im going to have to change
the computer in the 87 is a 7747. im not sure what it is in the 1992 since i havent torn it apart yet.
also what kind of tuning stuff should i get? ive been looking at the moates website but not sure what to buy forsure

[jamiewilson]

would i be better off keeping my 7747 to control the motor and making my computer from the 1992 a standalone or swap and make it all work off the 1992 computer.
also would the apu1 setup from moates be a good idea/ investment to buy?

[dave w]

The APU1 is an option, I decided on the Ostrich 2.0 emulator which eliminates the need for a chip.

dave w

[jamiewilson]

ill have to try and check tomorrow and see what computer is in my parts truck. i dont think there wiring harness would work since i have one of the first gen 4l80's
what else would i need to get to be able to use the ostrich? just the cables or does it come with them?
im just trying to gather as much info on the swap before i dive head first into it

[dave w]

I installed my Ostrich 2.0 with a Moates.net G1 memory adapter board.

dave w

[jamiewilson]

okay sweet and i went out a little bit ago and got the number off the parts truck ecm and its a '7060
ill look into getting the ostrich then, its a bit cheaper too it looks like

[dave w]

The '7060 TBI system can work for your project. http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?317-16147060-PCM-Information-85

dave w

[jamiewilson]

so im hoping i can start getting the 4l80 out either tomorrow after work or saturday have to break the pressure washer out and give the underside and motor a deep cleaning first since its covered in oil and tranny fluid from a t case leak.
ive been doing some more research. and since it is a 1992 4l80 and it has all three sensors the TISS TOSS and vss or whatever it is in the t case im wondering if ill be able to bypass the one on the t-case since i have a np208 mounting up to the 4l80 with the cable speedo,

[Six_Shooter]

If you have no tuning equipment and can afford to get the APU1, get it, it's worth it. The price comes out to less than buying the Ostrich 2.0, ALDU1, Burn2 and the Tuner Pro licence, PLUS you get the 3 additional analog inputs that you can't get with the separates route. These inputs can be used for WBO2 logging or other sensors or switches that are working on a 0-5V scale. The ADX does require some editing, if one has not already been set-up.

Take a look at swapping the '7060 to the '7427 (or other variants of the '7427), since there are larger VE and spark tables, along with some other improvements. The '7060 will be fine in most stock or stock like applications, where the RPM range will not be much higher that 4000 RPM. I'm suggesting the upgrade, because a friend has a car that currently has a '7060, and while his is more of a performance build on a 455 Olds, we have run out of VE table which is causing us an issue right around the 5200 RPM point, so we're swapping his car to a '7427.

It would also be better IMO to use a single ECM to run both the engine and trans, since it will do it. The only time I would suggest going to multiple ECMs is if you were going MPFI AND/OR boost. The TBI PCMs can't do anything with boost, at least not accurately. FWIW, the '7427 has the ability to run MPFI, with some mods.

The PCM will need a speed (VSS) input to run correctly. You can get a cable drive VSS (Painless is one supplier) to have both cable and the VSS signal to the PCM. However, the Painless VSS is not a 40 tooth wheel, so you will have to wire it differently than the stock system is, bypassing the DRAC. You could also make a 40 tooth wheel that goes on the output of the transfer case.

[jamiewilson]

If you have no tuning equipment and can afford to get the APU1, get it, it's worth it. The price comes out to less than buying the Ostrich 2.0, ALDU1, Burn2 and the Tuner Pro licence, PLUS you get the 3 additional analog inputs that you can't get with the separates route. These inputs can be used for WBO2 logging or other sensors or switches that are working on a 0-5V scale. The ADX does require some editing, if one has not already been set-up.

Take a look at swapping the '7060 to the '7427 (or other variants of the '7427), since there are larger VE and spark tables, along with some other improvements. The '7060 will be fine in most stock or stock like applications, where the RPM range will not be much higher that 4000 RPM. I'm suggesting the upgrade, because a friend has a car that currently has a '7060, and while his is more of a performance build on a 455 Olds, we have run out of VE table which is causing us an issue right around the 5200 RPM point, so we're swapping his car to a '7427.

It would also be better IMO to use a single ECM to run both the engine and trans, since it will do it. The only time I would suggest going to multiple ECMs is if you were going MPFI AND/OR boost. The TBI PCMs can't do anything with boost, at least not accurately. FWIW, the '7427 has the ability to run MPFI, with some mods.

The PCM will need a speed (VSS) input to run correctly. You can get a cable drive VSS (Painless is one supplier) to have both cable and the VSS signal to the PCM. However, the Painless VSS is not a 40 tooth wheel, so you will have to wire it differently than the stock system is, bypassing the DRAC. You could also make a 40 tooth wheel that goes on the output of the transfer case.

i dont really plan on having the thing wound out past 4000, and if it is it would only be on a hard acceleration for a couple seconds pulling a trailer or something heavy on the bed. i dont even think my 6.0 sees anything over 4k often in my 2002
also from the few threads ive found they have said that you can make the rear trans sensor work like the vss, or is that not possible? it just makes the computer think its a 2wd, plus i dont use 4 low very often, if at all. its kinda hard to find more info about it since most people are usuing the 94+ 4l80s which dont have the rear sensor on the 4wd cases.
i thought i seen somewhere someone say you cant or shouldnt run the force motor in the first gen 4l80s with different computers since the 7060 has the cleaning cycles for the bosch force motor.

also about the 7060 im really only planning on running the vortec heads without any other motor mods. maybe a cam in the future but ill see how it works with the cam in the motor first. do you think the ve and spark tables will be sufficient for it? it wont be a high performance motor just trying to have a decent motor tranny combo in a square body with fuel injection reliability and a overdrive auto. plus its nicer to be able to make things work that you already have.
if i do more to the motor in the future then id forsure think about upgrading to a 7427.

with the ostrich vs apu1 part isnt the benefit of the ostrich the part of being able to just upload a tune onto the ostrich and keep the ostrich plugged into the pcm?
im still up in the air on either kit or other recommended kits

that 455 has gotta be almost topped out at 5200 rpms, thats kinda up there for a big block :rockon:
thanks for the help so far

[Six_Shooter]

Yeah if you don't plan to really push past 4000 RPM, the '7060 will be fine.

That's a myth about the cleaning cycle, and being bad to run an older trans on a newer PCM, because guess what? that cleaning cycle only happens when in park for an extended period of time. I've discussed this at length with the friend of mine who has the Olds, since it's backed by a 4L80E and he's a nut that will just research the shit out things and has found that there's a lot of myths floating around based on partial truths.

Like I said with the VSS, you would be bypassing the DRAC, and wiring the VSS directly to the PCM, but I believe there's a flag that needs to be flipped for that to work correctly. I don't recall if the '7060 requires any changes for that for sure.

You can use the APU1 exactly like an Ostrich. I own both, actually I own several Ostriches (4 I think) and one APU1. I like both, but if I had to reduce my collection, I'd keep the APU1 and sell the rest. It can be left in the car just like an Ostrich, it's a single cable system for both emulating and datalogging, and as I said has those extra channels for datalogging. The only issue I have ever found with the APU1 is that it doesn't play well with a completely stock $58 mask (Syclone/Typhoon/Turbo Sunbird), but there's a patch that can make it work correctly for that too.

I use(d) the Ostrich in my car simply because I had a Tunerview II that would allow me to also datalog through it, so it made more sense to use an Ostrich for that, than an APU1. If I didn't have the Tunerview II I'd likely have used the APU1 instead.

The other way to look at it is if you're not planning on doing any tuning for a while, you can program an EEPROM with the APU1 and just run off the EEPROM for that period until you want to get back to tuning, that's the great thing about the APU1 everything is built into one unit.

The 455 revs to 5800, only because that's where we set the limiter. It's spec'd to rev to 6500 or so, but as a buffer. We're just having a slight issue around the 5200 RPM spot that I can't tune out, because then it effects everything between 4000 RPM and that spot and then above again. This is why we're swapping to a '7427 to get more finite tuning ability.

[1project2many]

you can make the rear trans sensor work like the vss

Another member here described how GM was able to remove the TOSS sensor in later trucks and only use the VSS. The computer uses the VSS to calculate a fake TOSS signal. In low range the computer uses the transfer case gear ratio to calculate the signal. I think someone with some code knowledge could do the same in reverse.

[jamiewilson]

Interesting about the cleaning cycle part, and thanks for clearing up the differences between the apu1 and ostrich, I'll most likely go with the apu1 then and once I get the tranny switched and the truck put back together I guess I'll figure out what I will need to do with the vss,

I think I had found that thread about the sensors 1project2many that's when i kinda remember someone on another forum when I was searching talking about just using the Toss as the vss or something and making the computer just think it's a 2wd.

First thing in the morning Imma break the pressure washer out aND get the parts truck degreased then my buddy should be coming over to help get the heavy 4l80 dropped out of the truck then I can get it cleaned up the rest of the way, hopefully have it mounted in the 87 by Sunday Then next week I'll start getting the wiring and computer pulled out of the donor

[jamiewilson]

So got the tranny all cleaned up Saturday and ready to go.
Last night I got the wiring harness out of the 92 donor
How much of the other wiring in the cab besides the main harness am I going to need?
There's a little grey box thing with a circuit board in it and another one that's black that are connected to the harness. The grey one is taped to the harness and the black one clips to the bottom side of the computer mount. You guys know what there for? I should've grabbed a picture last night when I was working on it

And can I eliminate the wiring from the abs and egr without any problems? Other then just some computer time once it is running.

[1project2many]

The grey box is a diode module. Can't remember exactly when it's used but it relates to 4wd I believe. Not sure on the black box, maybe hot fuel module. Post picture.

[jamiewilson]

I'll get a pic of it this afternoon
It's about the size of a pack of cigarettes and has a flip up cover on the one side to get to the circuit board. Kinda hard to explain exactly.

[1project2many]

Does this help?


http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/jettadan1/2010-03-24_031146_fuel_module_heate.gif

[jamiewilson]

Does this help?


http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/jettadan1/2010-03-24_031146_fuel_module_heate.gif

Yes it does and it is the hot fuel mod.
Do you have any other diagrams for the wiring on a 7060?
Or a link to good wire diagrams / gm diagrams online

[dave w]

Yes it does and it is the hot fuel mod.
Do you have any other diagrams for the wiring on a 7060?
Or a link to good wire diagrams / gm diagrams online

I posted a link in Post #7 for wiring schematics.

dave w

[jamiewilson]

That's right, forgot about that link, I couldn't see the pictures of the diagrams on my phone but can on my laptop

[jamiewilson]

got busy doing other things last week getting ready for an ice fishing trip last weekend so didnt get much done last week. but im starting on fixing up the wiring harness today. once i got the 4l80 out and de gunked i figure out that the tranny is a gm reman from 1994 but who ever swaped it did a hack job on the wiring to the tranny plug so gotta get that fixed up first.

[fastacton]

It's possible that hack job was done by the dealer. The 4L80e connector style changed in '93 to cure leakage issues and earlier harnesses were upgraded. I don't know if it was a recall, but most of the earlier vehicles I've seen have been upgraded to the newer connector with varying levels of effort put into the job.

[jamiewilson]

who ever did the wiring for the new plug stripped the wires like 2 inches long then put them in heat shrink crimp connectors but with the wires being stripped so long some were bare and exsposed then a few had holes in the insulation from either a test light or ohm meter. im surprised i was able to drive it for almost 3 years without problems from it with how bad it was wired. gonna try and get the old 7747 harness pulled today then cut the hole bigger in the fire wall and get the new harness ran. should have the tranny and t case in tomorrow

[jamiewilson]

Does this help?


http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/jettadan1/2010-03-24_031146_fuel_module_heate.gif

i sapose you have the next page of what the other connectors are easily acceable or know off the top of your head? ie the c200 c235... etc
i think i have a 92 service manual downloaded on my computer just didnt wanna look threw the whole thing to find the page.
since the old 7747 harness only had 1 plug out of the main harness and the 7060 has all them

[jamiewilson]

does anyone have a diagram of the fuse box pass threw connector threw the firewall? both the 87 and 91
most of the wires are the same color just dont know if they are the same functions or not

[jamiewilson]

got the trans in yesterday and everything, still trying to figure out wiring to the fuse box. traced all of them on the 7747 harness but i didnt trace them on the 7060 harness before i taped and wire loomed the harness. only like 3 or 4 wires im not completely sure of were they go/ come from
does any of the wires from the computer go to the fuse box threw the engine compartment on the 7060 harness?

Edit. Broke out the ohm meter and checked continuity and found were the wires run to

[jamiewilson]

So been making some good progress but am getting stumped on two things. Fuel pump isn't turning on and the dash side of the wiring harness. Figured out all but 3 wires from the dash plug a white, red and a black with a white stripe. They run back into the engine compartment as far as I can tell. And I'm not to sure what's going on with the fuel pump. Brand new unit, fuel gauge is workin just no pump
Edit. found a gm wiring diagram finally and looks like the red and white are the injector hot wires and the black/white is for the egr's vaccum system.

[fastacton]

The black with white stripe is probably a ground (maybe even the fuel pump ground?). The red could be the prime wire for the fuel pump, some harnesses had this run through the drivers side and others were passenger side. Not sure about the white one, depends on where it leads to.

For the fuel pump, it's always best to check the basics first. The fuse and relay, then make sure the relay is getting battery power on the orange wire. Check to ensure the 2 pin connector going to the fuel pump is connected and it's gray to gray (or tan) and black/white to black/white. Is the ECM known good? Is it getting both battery power and power from the ignition switch?

[jamiewilson]

The 7060 harness has the injectors hot wires feed threw the firewall at the computer hole then run threw the dash to the fuse box were as the 7747 I replaced had them combined along with another maybe egr at the fuse box. They ram in the engine bay harness to the fuse panel. There is also a big red standalone wire in the computer side of my 7060 harness that I'm not sure we're it runs to but I'm fairly certain that it starts at the junction block. Kinda a pain making the harness work in a different truck. But easier then rep inning and adding the tranny harness.
And the ecm is good since the truck was a running driving truck when I gutted everything out of it.
As for the keyed power to the computer I'm not sure. I took the harness out completely to the fuse block junction from the donor so used the same junction block and everything.
The fuel pump and tank is different too since the truck had dual tanks but I switched it to the suburban tank so I can run tool boxes under the flatbed. So I had to get rid of the tank switch and by pass that. I'm not sure if the electric pumps worked originally in the 87 since the PO had put a edelbrock carb on the motor. So I might have something to fix under the dash.
Along with sort out the old first gen vintage air system wiring In it.
So much wiring for such a simple truck lol

[jamiewilson]

ill post this for future referance and for others to use if need be that is all the wires on the dash harness side from the 91/92 donor truck
white: tach lead.

red : is injector hot wires

purple : is other part of rwal and brake switch also goes to ecm pin a12. i took out the rwal modual and spliced the engine harness direct to the computer then splices the 2 purples remaining into the black connector from dash. ill find out if that works or not. one is from brake switch other is not used since it was with the old t case.

brown: vss input

orange/black: serial data

pink/black: keyed hot and start for brake/tcc switch (splice my red injector wire into)

brown/white: servuce engine light

white/black: diagnostic test

black/white: vss ground

tan/black: aldl F only new wire needed to be ran since 7747 didnt use the F port

gray : wipers

ill post my fuse block wiring once i get that the rest of the way together

that is all from a 1992 gm wiring manual i managed to find on another forum. ill post a link if its alright has alot of different year factory truck manuals

[jamiewilson]

i figured out the fuel pump wiring also. i had one wire that was cut and a connector the PO disconnected on the firwall side behind cylinder 7. must be for the tank selector switch.
now all i gotta do is bump the engine to tdc and set the distributor. and get my last fuel parts for the truck finally

[buddrow]

You can use just the ISS on the trans and the VSS on the transfer case for speed inputs. the 4LO switch tells the pcm the make a couple of changes to the transmission line pressure and shift speeds. You should have a NV241/243 I think if it's 92. I would recommend adding a toggle switch to tell the computer whenever you are in 4wd. Your transmission will thank you and consequently so will your wallet. Just use the DRAC from the donor vehicle and wire up the 4wd switch and go.

Buddrow

[jamiewilson]

I put the motor and trany in a 87 so it has a np208 the 92 did have a 241 but drivers drop for the ifs.
So the thing with it is can I use the OSS on the tranny for the vss? And I think gm did something with a drac on the back of the speedo housing. There will be some more investigating once I finally get it road worthy

[jamiewilson]

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=700011
Here is a link to the shop manuals. They have Really have come in handy

Only wire I'm still not sure about is the oil pressure gauge. I know what it is on the 7060 harness but I'm pretty sure that it's missing on the 7747 harness.

[jamiewilson]

update everything seems to be working as it should. starts hard tho and doesnt idle very good, but should be able to get that fixed once i get to tuning it. havent drove it yet since i still gotta get the shifter linkage fabricated and put the rear brakes in

[jamiewilson]

with the vortec heads what have you guys found for a good inital/ base timing to set the distributor to?

[jamiewilson]

So finally got back to work and was able to order my ostrich, how do I hook it up and install it? Was reading the instructions on moates website but my chip in the 7060 computer is different then what there's shows, mine was the long and skinny adapter into the 2 chips instead of the 1 chip into the board. Wondering if I'm going to need to get a adapter or not

[Six_Shooter]

You need a G1 adapter and the Ostrich ribbon cable plugs in place of the EEPROM.

[dave w]

See attached pics.

dave w

[jamiewilson]

dave that must not be a 7060 computer in your picture? mine only has the vertical pins to install the adapter in.

edit: nevermind i see how its plugged in, was having a brain fart been a long day

[jamiewilson]

update so i finally was able to start driving the truck last week. all my wiring has worked good. tranny shifts as it should using the oss on the tranny, so far i have been able to get the idle and into the midrange tuned in decent, the part to full throttle is still off but hoping i can get it dialed in the rest of the way with the aldl cable coming hopefully the first part of the week.

i do have a little hard cold start to the thing right now that i would like to fix also. but it only happens on the first start of the day so just a minor problem right now.
for the guys that have tuned in a vortec head swap what have your spark tables been looking like? im running a lt1 timing table i found online. ive taken 4 degrees off the whole table and seems better. i tried a vortec timing table but didnt seem to run nearly as nicely with it compared to the lt1.

[jamiewilson]

been getting the truck more and more dialed in, im still getting a studder/ almost miss in the higher rpm 3600+ but only does it if youre around 90% throttle. wide open is doing good. so thats still stumping me.

i have been doing some datalogging and im a little rich 116-120 int cruising between 50 and 80 mph. also timing is doing alright. get a few knock counts randomly in the higher rpm