V8 Astro TBI

[falconvan]

Hi all,

I'm new to the forum and still kind of a newbie to FI. I've done a few FI swaps but don't know much on the programming side or making changes from factory settings.

I recently put together a small V8 for my 86 Astrovan. I re-ringed a 68 307 shortblock, added a set of 305 HO heads and a TBI intake. Exhaust is stock manifolds with a 2.5 x 2.5 crossover going into a 3" single all the way out the back with a 3" turbo muffler and no cat. This is the cam I used:
Chevy 283,325,350,400 Cid Small Block Chevy Hydraulic camshaft,
1500-4000 RPM Range,
278 intake/288 exhaust Adv Dur,
Duration @.050 204 intake/214 exhaust,
Valve lift 420 intake/443 exhaust,
Lobe C/L 112

For the FI, I used everything stock off the 4.3. Throttle body, injectors, and ECM are all stock to the van.
It actually runs pretty decent with no check engine light on which surprised me. I does seems to idle low once the engine is warm; about 600 rpm. I'm thinking also with the extra cubic inches and more aggressive cam, I'm probably running lean once I hit highway speeds. My thoughts were to change the injectors to the larger 350 TBI ones and swap to the 87 and up model 1227747 ECM with a performance chip programmed to take advantage of the cam profile. I heard that the 86 model ECMs are too old and shouldn't be used. Any thoughts on the best route to take?

[dave w]

:welcome:

I think the 1227747 ECM is a good TBI computer with good aftermarket support. I think there is a HUGE difference between a "Performance Chip" and "Tuned Chip". For a modified engine like you have, I favor a "Tuned Chip". You can "Tune" a chip for yourself with TunerPro RT software. There are several options for programming chips, one possible option is to convert the 1227747 to a "Flash Chip". Here is a link to a post I did on converting the 1227747 to a "Flash Chip" :http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?172-7747-Flash-Chip-Conversion-%2827SF512%29

dave w

[falconvan]

Wow, that's really inexpensive. Can you do things like remove the EGR functions by going this route, too?

[dave w]

Wow, that's really inexpensive. Can you do things like remove the EGR functions by going this route, too?

You will have "Full Throttle Access" change any chip parameter you WANT ... you are the programmer!

dave w

[falconvan]

You will have "Full Throttle Access" change any chip parameter you WANT ... you are the programmer!

dave w

Sounds cool; I'm sold.

[Six_Shooter]

First thing you will need to do is get an 8 cylinder CALPAK (the little removable chip under the access cover on the ECM) and program an EEPROM for 8 cylinder mode or find one. Right now, your ECM things that the engine RPM is a little higher (about 33% higher) than it really is, due to the 8 cylinder running on 6 cylinder programming of the ECM. It may be easier to just buy a complete ECM that is KNOWN to be from an 8 cylinder application, than finding just the CALPAK on it's own.
Both chips/ICs need to be changed in pairs, otherwise you get a cylinder count discrepancy and a CEL to go along with it.

Without setting the ECM to 8 cyl, the RPM dependent items will not trigger at the correct times, and can be difficult to tune around.

Going to larger injectors will definitely help. You can make yours adjustable, but then knowing the flow rate will be a guess at best, but is a budget way to increase injector flow.

[falconvan]

Great advice, thanks. So if I find an 87-91 TBI Chevy pickup in the boneyard and it has this ECM#, I should be OK?

[falconvan]

OK, I'm making progress. I swapped in a used 1227747 ECM today. It ran like crap for about 5 minutes but as I drove it around it got much better. Now it's idling normally and the shift point feel like they are where they should be. Under easy acceleration it picks up fine but if you floor it, it falls on its face for a few seconds. I'm still running the 4.3 45lb injectors so I sent off a pair of 5.7 60lb injectors to have them ultrasonically cleaned and checked. Once I get them back I'll swap them and install a fuel pressure tap to see where I'm at.

[dave w]

The attached spreadsheet is what I use to calculate BPW, see attached .zip file and screen shot examples.

dave w

[V8Astro]

Looks like the technical help is here. I just popped in to say this project is dear to my heart

[falconvan]

Looks like the technical help is here. I just popped in to say this project is dear to my heart

I can tell by your screen name. What's your setup like?

[V8Astro]

I can tell by your screen name. What's your setup like?

I don't have one anymore. I put a stock 350 in my 92 Astro back in the summer of 2000. After that I had a couple more I converted to small blocks. One with TPI from a Corvette. Another on was 4wd with front axle and transfer case lifted from a 92 S10 Blazer. Good times

[falconvan]

I don't have one anymore. I put a stock 350 in my 92 Astro back in the summer of 2000. After that I had a couple more I converted to small blocks. One with TPI from a Corvette. Another on was 4wd with front axle and transfer case lifted from a 92 S10 Blazer. Good times

Sound like some cool rigs; I really like the 4x4 idea. I got my refurbished injectors back today and will probably swap them in this week. It's 16 degrees here so not today.

[falconvan]

Still working out the bugs; I swapped the injectors and set the initial timing at 0. Now it starts quick, idles great but feels like the 1-2 shift is too early and at highway speeds doesn't have much power. There no ECM trans control on this; just a basic 700r4 so I'm going to go back and readjust the TV cable. As far as the power issue, maybe I need some more initial advance on the timing. Everything I've read said to set it at 0 but this isn't exactly a stock setup. I haven't checked to see if the distributer is advancing on increased RPMs; guess I need to look at that.

[falconvan]

Well, looks like everything is working but just running really rich. So I ordered the chip burner along with the socket adapter and some chips; time to start seeing if I can learn this stuff.

[falconvan]

Now is where I'm a little (or a lot!) lost. I have the Burn 2 hooked up and Tunerpro downloaded. I'm able to open some files I downloaded from here but not sure what file I need. Is the BIN file and the XDF file two separate files I need? I found a BIN file for a 305/700R4 in the file list but its not an XDF file and it looks like you have to choose an XDF to open it?

Basically what I want to do is set up a 307 using 350 injectors and turn off the EGR so from what I understand I need to start with a 305/700R4 BIN file, do some adjusting on the fuel table (VE tables?), turn off the code 32 flag, and set the EGR on/off temps to about 300 to keep it from coming on?

Could one of you kind souls help me out as to what file(s) I need to start with and where to make the fuel adjustments?

[dave w]

The Burn 2 is a tool for "Burning Chips". The Burn 2 will "Burn" a .bin file into the Chip, that's it. If you are using a 27SF512 "Flash Chip" you will need to erase the Flash Chip before "Burning".

TurnerPro is an "Editor" for .bin files (Chip File), so parameters like spark tables, fuel tables, emission parameters and dozens of other parameters can be changed or "Edited".

The .xdf file is similar to "Make / Model / Year, except the computer part number is used from the specific Make / Model / Year. Select the correct definition file ".xdf" for the computer part number .bin file you want to change or "Edit" The 1227747 TBI ECM used $42 .xdf file. See attached $42 .xdf.

After opening TunerPro:
From the XDF Menu - select the .xdf file you want to use.
From the File Menu - select the .bin file you want to "Edit".

I usually re-name the .bin file I edit using "Modified" in the .bin file name. For example "Modified ASDU_BPW-128_Cop-Car Injectors_No-Emissions_Scout II 345" so I can remember what I was working on and what changes I made.


dave w

[falconvan]

The Burn 2 is a tool for "Burning Chips". The Burn 2 will "Burn" a .bin file into the Chip, that's it. If you are using a 27SF512 "Flash Chip" you will need to erase the Flash Chip before "Burning".

TurnerPro is an "Editor" for .bin files (Chip File), so parameters like spark tables, fuel tables, emission parameters and dozens of other parameters can be changed or "Edited".

The .xdf file is similar to "Make / Model / Year, except the computer part number is used from the specific Make / Model / Year. Select the correct definition file ".xdf" for the computer part number .bin file you want to change or "Edit" The 1227747 TBI ECM used $42 .xdf file. See attached $42 .xdf.

After opening TunerPro:
From the XDF Menu - select the .xdf file you want to use.
From the File Menu - select the .bin file you want to "Edit".

I usually re-name the .bin file I edit using "Modified" in the .bin file name. For example "Modified ASDU_BPW-128_Cop-Car Injectors_No-Emissions_Scout II 345" so I can remember what I was working on and what changes I made.


dave w

Ok, so open this xdf file, open the 5.0/700 r4 bin for the ecm, edit and save the bin, then burn just the bin to the chip or burn the bin and the xdf to the chip?

[dave w]

Burn the ".bin flle" to the chip.

dave w

[falconvan]

OK, I followed the direction from Moates, erasing the chip first and verifying the file size (4k), Buffer start-end offsets ( 000000->000FFF) And the Chip start-end offsets (00F000->00FFFF). The chip orientation in the burner and the ECM is correct. I went through the "Program chip" and "Verify" commands and it shows "Success". But when I start the van, it runs rough and I have a rapidly blinking CEL. I tried it with two different new chips from Moates; same result.

Anyone run into that before? I sent an email to Moates Support but I thought id see if anyone here has had to fix that issue.

[S3TPI]

The rapid flash indicates the ECM is not reading the PROM. For some reason, it is difficult to get those adapter sockets to work properly without being soldered in place by Moates.

[falconvan]

I used this ZIF socket and had a local electronics shop that one of my friends works at install it for me.
http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=28-526-10virtualkey53500000virtualkey535-28-526-10
I dont do much fine soldering so I figured I'd let someone who does install it. I guess I'll have them re-check it.

[S3TPI]

Those should work. I tried soldering one of those type in myself, and never could get it to work. Had to go back to the stock computer and have a friend burn a different prom that would fit in the stock socket.

[damanx]

Make sure that the ZIF socket pin #1 is in the correct position on the ECM board. Also make sure that you are putting the PROM in correctly also.

I burned out a 2732 one day by installing the eprom into the ZIF incorrectly one day. Fortunately, I have plenty of extra of them.

I'm not sure of the Moates Burn 2, but with the eprom reader/writer that I use, it will tell me if the chip is bad without risk to the writer.

If the Burn 2 is the same, then try verifying the eprom you have, if you get a good response, then I'd guess your ZIF socket to have bad solder joints to the ECM, if a bad response, then it's possible the ZIF socket is installed 180 degrees out or you installed the chip 180 degrees out.

[falconvan]

10465Does that look right?

[damanx]

Yes that does.

Verifying that at least prevents you from physically burning out the chip as I know that is what happens to the 2732's if they are installed backwards.

I've thought about doing the conversion to use the 512 chips, but since I have a Moates Ostrich and the ability to erase and burn my own, I haven't.

[fastacton]

Were the correct legs on the ZIF tied together? I believe this needs to be done to make it work if you're not using the Moates adapter.

[falconvan]

Were the correct legs on the ZIF tied together? I believe this needs to be done to make it work if you're not using the Moates adapter.
Yeah, I pulled it apart and checked the ZIF connections and everything looks good including the 5 pins that get tied together.

[falconvan]

The rapid flash indicates the ECM is not reading the PROM. For some reason, it is difficult to get those adapter sockets to work properly without being soldered in place by Moates.
Moates will solder in a socket if you send it to them?

[S3TPI]

Yes, you can send them the whole computer, and they will solder in a socket and test it. They used to charge around 30 bucks, maybe more now, I'm sure.

[falconvan]

That's what I did, sent it to Moates. hopefully this cures the issue when I get it back.

[falconvan]

That's what I did, sent it to Moates. Hopefully this cures the issue when I get it back. $68 for the socket, install, and shipping; not too shabby.

[dave w]

What socket is Moates installing? Modified 28 pin ZIF, so you can use a 27SF512 Flash Chip (EEPROM)? Standard 24 pin DIP socket? Are you able to Burn 2732a EPROM's? The Moates.net Burn 2 DOES NOT Burn 2732a EPROM's.

dave w

[falconvan]

What socket is Moates installing? Modified 28 pin ZIF, so you can use a 27SF512 Flash Chip (EEPROM)? Standard 24 pin DIP socket? Are you able to Burn 2732a EPROM's? The Moates.net Burn 2 DOES NOT Burn 2732a EPROM's.

dave w
I think it's called an E3? They said it will work with a burn 2 and the chips I'm using. The chips were burning fine, just couldn't get them to read.

[dave w]

I think it's called an E3? They said it will work with a burn 2 and the chips I'm using. The chips were burning fine, just couldn't get them to read.
Maybe this is what Moates is doing for you? http://support.moates.net/g2-adapter-installation/

dave w

[falconvan]

Maybe this is what Moates is doing for you? http://support.moates.net/g2-adapter-installation/

dave w

Yeah, I believe so. Cant understand why we couldn't get that ZIF to work; everything read OK with an ohmmeter but I couldn't get it to read a burned or a factory chip. Hopefully this works.

[falconvan]

Must be my lucky day. I got the ECM back from Moates today. I burned a chip with the BIN file Dave sent me (Thank you, Dave), stuck it in, and it runs awesome with no CEL light. :thumbsup:

[S3TPI]

Glad that worked. I don't know what kind of magic they do there, but it is worth it.

[falconvan]

Yep, well worth $65 to have the issue solved.

[falconvan]

Just checking in, still running great with no issues although it could use a few more ponies. Got a deal on some Vortec heads and thinking of swapping them on with a better breathing intake.

[falconvan]

It's time for the shop truck to get some love. I actually put it out there for sale a few times thinking about going to a Suburban but all I got were some ridiculously lowball offers so it's staying put. So I'm just going to drop on the new set of Vortec heads along with an aluminum intake and headers, swap the auto trans for a 5 speed, new shocks all the way around, and get the A/C working. I've got a few residential A/C replacements lined up to do in the next two weeks and then she's going in the garage. I think I'm taking this one on the Power Tour in June; I'm planning on doing the Saturday-Wednesday stretch from Kansas City to Gateway International Racetrack which will put me about 45 minutes from home. Not sure if I'll have to retune as the Vortec heads will raise the compression ratio by a point? Also wondering if I should go to a heated 02 sensor, it stumbles a bit when the engine is cold and has a sooty tailpipe but runs great as soon as it reaches operating temp.

[dave w]

The only time I did not have to retune a replacement engine, was when I replaced a COMPLETELY Stock engine with another COMPLETELY Stock engine.

dave w

[falconvan]

That's what I figured; probably a good time to get my data logging set up as long as I've got it torn apart.

[falconvan]

So a friend of mine says,"You're going to go through all the hassle of pulling the engine out of this thing to put on new heads, intake, headers, a manual trans swap and your going to put the 307 back in when you have a roller cam vortec 350 sitting there that just needs a few parts and will give you probably 100hp more?" Ok, guess that doesn't make much sense. So I ordered the engine rebuild kit and a GM Performance roller cam today and got the block cleaned up. 11690

[falconvan]

Got my engine put together and installed along with the clutch pedal for the manual trans swap. Hopefully be ready for a test fire in a week or so.

[falconvan]

I had a question regarding the vss input to the pcm; is the optical pickup on the back of the speedometer the same type signal as the NV3500 VSS? The trans is from a 1992 truck. I'm wondering if I can use the VSS in the trans as the input to the factory Astro speedo buffer in place of the optical sensor or do I need to swap the buffer out for a later model DRAC? I want to make sure the PCM is getting the correct vss signal.