Need tunerpro XDF and ADX for 1228747 AKWA

[1leg]

Just loaded TP RT(with donation). Need to get started on this truck first. Want to do some logging so you guys can help me tune it. Also if anyone has the wiring diagram for it would be great.

This is in 1989 V2500 Suburban(HD) TBI-350/TH400 4.11 gears.

[1leg]

Used my cats program to copy my 1989 v2500 bin.

[historystamp]

We are dealing with:
1228747 AKWA

I'm into using turnerPro as a scan tool. I don't know about tuning.

Look at this thread for quick instructions on TurnerPro logging of the truck data stream.
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?420-Micro-mini-startup-Guide-for-Beginners

from BCC lookup.xls:

1497



AKWA
4.00 KB
1989
32097
16121134
1228747
1135
4551
C2
L05
5.7
M40
AUTO








There are a lot of cars & trucks with this engine. Not sure which definition file you will need for you to log your truck data.

I'd start with DATA STREAM A58.
see this page fore the A58.ds file you will need.
http://tunerpro.net/gmOBDI.htm

Hopefully someone will tune in with more info.

Here is EagleMark's all-in-one excel sheet thread.
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?499-TunerPro-XDF-and-ADX-lookup-Project

Robert

[93V8S10]

Looks like that is a $4F mask. A xdf (bin definition) is available, but looks like no has done a adx (data log definition) yet.

Options:
Build a adx file
Repin and install a 7747
Repin and install a 16168625, 16196395 or 16197427 PCM
Not the only options, but the most straight forward.

Edit: Looks like there is a adx file availaible.

[EagleMark]

Thanks for getting him going historystamp! Looking at the BCC lookup and your other project one thing comes to mind is the Mask ID would be needed, but I guess that is started in the TunerPro Lookup project.

1Leg your in luck! We did not have a ECM information thread for that ECM and Mask so I started one for you with files I have! I do not know if the ADX has been tested so if you find it has a glitch or issue let us know and we will work on it.
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?521-1228747-ECM-Information-4F

Information about years, makes and models or anything you learn about this ecm please pass it back and I will add to the thread.

This entire section is by ECM and mask ID. Only allowed by moderators to add posts to. It is for information and files for each ECM/PCM so it is a library of sorts, not for conversation.
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/forumdisplay.php?20-GM-ECM-Bins-TunerPro-Definition-Files-Wiring-Diagrams-Tuner-Info

Any ECM/PCM we have will be added as time goes by. Your in real luck when you get to your 1993 as I believe it will be mask that 93V8S10 has an incredible amount of work into making XDF and ADX files for with many options.

[EagleMark]

Looks like that is a $4F mask. A xdf (bin definition) is available, but looks like no has done a adx (data log definition) yet.

Options:
Build a adx file
Repin and install a 7747
Repin and install a 16168625, 16196395 or 16197427 PCM
Not the only options, but the most straight forward.

Edit: Looks like there is a adx file availaible.Looks like I was putting together a $4F thread for him while you were posting. We do have an ADX for it and it is now in the thread.

[1leg]

Thanks guys.

I was able to get the G2 adaptor and flash chip installed sucessfully today. I only started the truck and didn't drive it yet. Need to modifiy the cover on the ECU so the chip doesn't fall out while driving. should get that done this week at work. After i get the Suburban up and running so can trust it, I'll start on the truck.

I will try and get some logging done in the mean time.

[EagleMark]

Robert said the ADX is based off ALDL A58.ds which is Light Duty and probably correct for your truck.

The one I origanally posted was based off ALDL 106.ds which is also $4F but heavy Duty. So check your ADX. They have changed in that thread and now have 2
1. $4F-1228747-LD-V1.1.adx which is identical to A33.ds except for one entry which is $42. So I changed it in $42 and re-named it.
2. $4F-1227787-HD-V1.1.adx is based off A106.ds

[historystamp]

You know both of the datastreams are for 160 baud. Isn't there some special configuration for this in Turnerpro?



DATA PIN : READ DATA ON PIN "E" OF ALDL CONNECTOR


BAUD RATE : 160 BAUD
OPEN MODE - 20 BYTES
10K MODE - 20 BYTES
SHORTED MODE - 20 BYTES


Robert

[EagleMark]

Yes, All 160 Baud are on Pin E of ALDL port. All 8192 Baud are on pin M of ALDL port. Only one I have seen differant, so far is $6E which is both pin E and M and both bauds and differant data streams for differant years, very confusing...

They are both configured differantly in the Acqusition file.

[1leg]

I have run into some issues with my 89 suburban, I now have a check engine light, So i'm trying to get TPRT to log data, I have tried all 3 ADX files and i still cannot get linked. I have been logging on my other truck(1993) and have been successful hooking up and logging. I'm using the same computer,cable and com port 1.

[EagleMark]

$4F-1228747-LD-V1.1.adx should be correct adx file for your truck. If you can't connect then shut down TP, move USB cable to another port and retry. USB to COM ports move on USB slots. Why? I don't know. But my laptop will change from one to two but never three.

Restart laptop with cable plugged in, restart TP.

TP suggests COM 3-4 but since your getting data on COM1 on other truck it should work.

[1leg]

I will try tomorrow, Thanks for the suggestion.

A couple of other observation i had. The CEL seems to be blinking really fast when the key is on even with engine running. One time the CEL just stayed on with the key on but most of the time it just blinks really fast.

Thanks again

[EagleMark]

That's not good! Bad ECM, Bad Prom, No prom, complete failure...

[93V8S10]

That's a bad code, use a paper clip to pull the code. No need to mess with dataloging with that going on.

Also, could be a checksum error.

[1leg]

That's a bad code, use a paper clip to pull the code. No need to mess with dataloging with that going on.

Also, could be a checksum error.

I tried the paper clip, but the CEL just blinks really fast. the truck still starts fine.

Where should i look to buy a new ECM? I might need a back up I need this truck running. Is autozone a good source?

[EagleMark]

Junk yard is cheaper. They usually don't go bad? Have you pulled the chip out and maybe bent a leg?

[93V8S10]

I never had one that couldn't be pulled with the paper clip, so I don't know on that one.

I always gotten ECM's from the junk yard. I've not had much luck with electronics from Auto Zone, try Advance Auto or NAPA, or maybe ask some local shops where they get there's.

[EagleMark]

Pretty sure I had a bad prom once that would not pull codes, guy put the chip in holder backwards and it would not pull codes... not even 12, just flash continuously.

[1leg]

I will pull the ECM tomorrow recheck flash chip, I'm pretty sure everything is good, this will reset the computer and i will give it one more try. Maybe i didn't get the ECM cables plugged in all the way or something like that. It's weird that it ran fine Sunday then this morning it was bad.

Could this be the reason i couldn't get it to link up to log?

[EagleMark]

Yup!

[jim_in_dorris]

I seemed to remember the flickering SES light problem being common on 747 ECMs. Moates even has a fix.

"The Socket Booster improves the signal conditioning at your chip or emulation socket. This is an active circuit which boosts the address and data information to and from your target ECU. This is a great fix for that flickering SES light on the old GM TBI setups (747, etc). Drives the information more cleanly across the ribbon cable, allowing longer cable runs (3+ feet). Facilitates both remote emulation (when used with Ostrich 2.0) or remote-mount chip installation (when used with EMUC-series emulation cable and Chip Extender 1.0 with optional S2 socket available separately)."

I ended up having to replace my ECU when that happend because I didn't know about this fix. It may be your problem

[EagleMark]

I seemed to remember the flickering SES light problem being common on 747 ECMs. Moates even has a fix.

"The Socket Booster improves the signal conditioning at your chip or emulation socket. This is an active circuit which boosts the address and data information to and from your target ECU. This is a great fix for that flickering SES light on the old GM TBI setups (747, etc). Drives the information more cleanly across the ribbon cable, allowing longer cable runs (3+ feet). Facilitates both remote emulation (when used with Ostrich 2.0) or remote-mount chip installation (when used with EMUC-series emulation cable and Chip Extender 1.0 with optional S2 socket available separately)."

I ended up having to replace my ECU when that happend because I didn't know about this fix. It may be your problemI know the Ostrich needs the socket booster but the autoprom does not. I even got the longer ribbon cable for my AutoProm and still don't need it.

But your saying this could be needed even without aemulatorer?

[jim_in_dorris]

yes, I had the flashing SES on my truck with no outside connections to anything. I ended up having to replace the ECM, I didn't know about the socket booster. I would contact Craig at Moates.net and ask first to make sure, but I seem to remember it being a solution.

[1leg]

yes, I had the flashing SES on my truck with no outside connections to anything. I ended up having to replace the ECM, I didn't know about the socket booster. I would contact Craig at Moates.net and ask first to make sure, but I seem to remember it being a solution.
I will look into this. Thanks

[1leg]

I got home after work today. disconnected Bat, Remove ecu, wires looked to be plugged in and tight, I unplugged and opened ecu cover. Everything looked OK, plug ecu back in but did not re install under-dash left it laying on floor just in-case. Started truck and CEL turn off like normal. Turned of and restarted 3-4 times. every thing seemed good so i hurried to get the computer hooked up to log. Got everything working and went for a drive for a log. I will attach the log below using ($4F-1228747-LD-V1.1.adx). If anyone has some time to review the log i would like some input. I'm still learning, so if you could explain what you see wrong would be great.

Engine
Chevy 5.7 stock replacement long block about 10,000 miles
Shorty headers, custom 2.5" Y pipe. 3" single pipe all the way to back hi-flow cat and flowmaster muffler
Edelbrock TBI intake manifold.
Edelbrock valve springs.
Edelbrock cam not the TBI cam






Camshaft: Performer-Plus


Part #: #2102


Vehicle Type: CHEVROLET


Engine Application: 265-400 V8 (1957-86)


RPM Range: Idle-5500











DURATION AS ADVERTISED
INTAKE: 278°
EXHAUST: 288°


DURATION @ .050
INTAKE: 204°
EXHAUST: 214°


LIFT @ CAM (Lobe)
INTAKE: 0.28"
EXHAUST: 0.295"


LIFT @ VALVE
INTAKE: 0.42"
EXHAUST: 0.442"







LOBE SEPERATION: 112°
INTAKE CENTERLINE: 107°
IDLE VACUUM @ 1000 RPM: 14"

[EagleMark]

Have you played back your log yet? I tell everyone to right click on toolbar in TunerPro and check all the toolbars. learn the buttons! Click the play log button, then the List View button, then the History table button, then the Monitor button. These are all good to see how your running and where your tune is. There is also a Dashboard button, fancy but fluff compared to what others are telling you. You can click back and forth with them all open in tabs at bottom.

First thing I saw was you were in open loop for over 3 minutes and RICH the entire time and you hit 230f before it started to cool down to 212f. Little hot for me? Unless the ADX conversion is wrong, I'll look at it....

When the entire log has played back look at you BLM History table and click latests and average. Your rich at idle and low RPM and little lean high RPM. Exactly what I would expect for that cam. Is the chip stock? Also look at the knock history. Your knock count started at 6, this means nothing but if it increases then your having knock in those cells. You never had a knock. Daves small block chevy spark table may be a good start. Also need to do some work on VE tables to get fueling closer to 128 all over. Overall not bad at all! Just got way more potentail with tuning.

[1leg]

Have you played back your log yet? I tell everyone to right click on toolbar in TunerPro and check all the toolbars. learn the buttons! Click the play log button, then the List View button, then the History table button, then the Monitor button. These are all good to see how your running and where your tune is. There is also a Dashboard button, fancy but fluff compared to what others are telling you. You can click back and forth with them all open in tabs at bottom.

First thing I saw was you were in open loop for over 3 minutes and RICH the entire time and you hit 230f before it started to cool down to 212f. Little hot for me? Unless the ADX conversion is wrong, I'll look at it....

When the entire log has played back look at you BLM History table and click latests and average. Your rich at idle and low RPM and little lean high RPM. Exactly what I would expect for that cam. Is the chip stock? Also look at the knock history. Your knock count started at 6, this means nothing but if it increases then your having knock in those cells. You never had a knock. Daves small block chevy spark table may be a good start. Also need to do some work on VE tables to get fueling closer to 128 all over. Overall not bad at all! Just got way more potentail with tuning.

Yes I have been studying it for over 2 hours so far. I have exported the data to excel to play with the data. I did notice all that you wrote about and was about to ask some questions.

The temp is way hi. the gauge in the truck is no were near 200, something is way off? i have a 190' thermostat, and big rad and best pump on the market.
Spark advance doesn't change. this is a new distributor i'm worried?

[EagleMark]

I haven't had time to look at the adx file to see if there is a wrong conversion on coolant temp yet.

But I did remove the spark advance if that is what your talking about? It will not work with this adx file.

This ECM is almost identical to 1227747 and you seem to know how to work excel so look for Daves VE excel spreadsheet. It works awesome on 7747.

[1leg]

I haven't had time to look at the adx file to see if there is a wrong conversion on coolant temp yet.

But I did remove the spark advance if that is what your talking about? It will not work with this adx file.

This ECM is almost identical to 1227747 and you seem to know how to work excel so look for Daves VE excel spreadsheet. It works awesome on 7747.

Thanks,
Why disable spark adv? should I just trust the tables and not be concerned about? Can I reactivate it?

[EagleMark]

I was talking about the spark advance value in the adx file. It was something I was trying to do on my $42, which is identical to your $4f except one byte change. It just won't work with this ECM data.

I checked the ADX and it is correct? So you may have a bad CTS? Or have you moved it to another location to install you temp gauge?

[1leg]

More then like the wrong year sensor. I,ll check it.

Can we make spark adv, active with this ecu? I would like to see the data.

[EagleMark]

It's just not in the data stream... don't know if a guy good enough at hacking bins could make it work, wouldn't be worth the time really, just play with timing and watch for knock counts and back off.

CTS are pretty standard, but I have seen this increase in temp and decrease in temp because of them mounted elsewhere and use the hole by thermostat for their temp gauge. The water flow their gives ECM info it wants to see! More important then a temp gauge.

[1leg]

Cts is in the stock location, I had to install a new one when I put the engine in. The temp gauge sender is the stock one, and is in the stock location. I will look to see if they made different ones, I guess It could also be a bad sensor.

[EagleMark]

http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?74-Coolant-Temperature-Sensor-Diagnostic-Test-CTS&highlight=Coolant+Temperature+Sensor

[1leg]

http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?74-Coolant-Temperature-Sensor-Diagnostic-Test-CTS&highlight=Coolant+Temperature+Sensor

Here is what i got with testing, My multimeter sucks but I got 221-229, with my infrared temp gun it read 145-150 on intake right next to the sender. hooked up TPRT and the logger shower 171. I started the truck and watch the temp using the logger and my infrared gun. Temp stayed right at a 25-30' different between them.

Conclusion: temp sender is bad. The MM reading and the temp on the logger are in sync, but the temp sender is reading 30' more then the actual temp as read by the infrared and stock gauge. I need a new sensor any suggestion on brand?

With the sender reading wrong how will this effect the tune?
Would a heated o2 sensor help me get into closed loop sooner or is it a waste of time?
Next up I will be resetting the IAC as described on TGO website, This engine seems to idle really low in drive, could be the cam.

[EagleMark]

CTS sensor is pretty cheap no matter what you buy. AC Delco or whatever factory brand is would be best choice. Yes running 30 degrees to hot to ECM will effect tune!

If you have headers and the O2 down in the collector a heated O2 sensor will help. But with a good tune I ran an unheated O2 down there and never noticed the short times it was open loop. But when your data logging you want to make sure you are warmed up and in closed loop before starting recording or you'll just be filling the box's with 128s and skewing your real BLM numbers.

I'd do a little idle tuning for that cam before I did a min air reset...

That 1228747 is a truck ECM, trucks are known to stay open loop longer, may have some parameters to keep it open loop longer then my 1227747. My O2 is in exhaust manifold and I go closed loop within a minute or so cold start in winter...

[1leg]

i'll get a new sender this weekend from the dealer.

The headers are the shorty style, but the O2 is down after the y in the y-pipe. This is the way it was stock so when i had the exhaust done with a flowmaster y-pipe i had them place it in just about the same location.

[EagleMark]

Wow that's a long way. Actually way further than where an O2 sensor is supposed to be located. No bungs in the shorty headers?

I would say yes a heated O2 would help.

[1leg]

Got a new Acdelco sender i will install tomorrow morning. I will look into the heated O2 and get that in there in the next week or so. I will be moving soon so i want to get this thing running a little better before that happen.

[1leg]

got the sensor installed, I did check it before installing seemed to read the same as my infrared gun. But the logging it now reading about 25' higher then my infrared and gauge in the truck.

What do you guys think? could the xdf/adx file be wrong for my truck? I don't under stand the code yet to be able to check it.

[EagleMark]

It is reading from coolant flow, your infered heat gun is measuring metal on outside and being cooled by fan?

The ALDL file the ADX is made from only has Celsius look up table. Is the Celsius reading correct?

The Fahrenheit is a lookup table that is converted from celcius but works properly on my $42 1227747 and others. It just spits out a temp for byte count from 1 to 255... This is what is in the adx. everything is offset by 1.
<ADXLOOKUPTABLE id="10" idhash="0xDE6A9050" title="Coolant Temp in C">
<desc>&lt;Comments&gt;</desc>
<inputtype>1</inputtype>
<outputtype>3</outputtype>
<lookupmode>0</lookupmode>
<entrycount>39</entrycount>
<tableentry input="1.000000" output="200.000000" />
<tableentry input="13.000000" output="150.000000" />
<tableentry input="14.000000" output="145.000000" />
<tableentry input="15.000000" output="140.000000" />
<tableentry input="17.000000" output="135.000000" />
<tableentry input="19.000000" output="130.000000" />
<tableentry input="22.000000" output="125.000000" />
<tableentry input="24.000000" output="120.000000" />
<tableentry input="27.000000" output="115.000000" />
<tableentry input="31.000000" output="110.000000" />
<tableentry input="35.000000" output="105.000000" />
<tableentry input="40.000000" output="100.000000" />
<tableentry input="45.000000" output="95.000000" />
<tableentry input="51.000000" output="90.000000" />
<tableentry input="57.000000" output="85.000000" />
<tableentry input="65.000000" output="80.000000" />
<tableentry input="73.000000" output="75.000000" />
<tableentry input="82.000000" output="70.000000" />
<tableentry input="93.000000" output="65.000000" />
<tableentry input="103.000000" output="60.000000" />
<tableentry input="115.000000" output="55.000000" />
<tableentry input="127.000000" output="50.000000" />
<tableentry input="140.000000" output="45.000000" />
<tableentry input="153.000000" output="40.000000" />
<tableentry input="166.000000" output="35.000000" />
<tableentry input="178.000000" output="30.000000" />
<tableentry input="190.000000" output="25.000000" />
<tableentry input="200.000000" output="20.000000" />
<tableentry input="210.000000" output="15.000000" />
<tableentry input="219.000000" output="10.000000" />
<tableentry input="226.000000" output="5.000000" />
<tableentry input="232.000000" output="0.000000" />
<tableentry input="238.000000" output="-5.000000" />
<tableentry input="242.000000" output="-10.000000" />
<tableentry input="246.000000" output="-15.000000" />
<tableentry input="248.000000" output="-20.000000" />
<tableentry input="251.000000" output="-25.000000" />
<tableentry input="252.000000" output="-30.000000" />
<tableentry input="256.000000" output="-40.000000" />
</ADXLOOKUPTABLE>
<ADXLOOKUPTABLE id="11" idhash="0xDE6A9E10" title="Coolant Temp in F">
<desc>&lt;Comments&gt;</desc>
<inputtype>1</inputtype>
<outputtype>3</outputtype>
<lookupmode>0</lookupmode>
<entrycount>39</entrycount>
<tableentry input="1.000000" output="392.000000" />
<tableentry input="13.000000" output="302.000000" />
<tableentry input="14.000000" output="293.000000" />
<tableentry input="15.000000" output="284.000000" />
<tableentry input="17.000000" output="275.000000" />
<tableentry input="19.000000" output="266.000000" />
<tableentry input="22.000000" output="257.000000" />
<tableentry input="24.000000" output="248.000000" />
<tableentry input="27.000000" output="239.000000" />
<tableentry input="31.000000" output="230.000000" />
<tableentry input="35.000000" output="221.000000" />
<tableentry input="40.000000" output="212.000000" />
<tableentry input="45.000000" output="203.000000" />
<tableentry input="51.000000" output="194.000000" />
<tableentry input="57.000000" output="185.000000" />
<tableentry input="65.000000" output="176.000000" />
<tableentry input="73.000000" output="167.000000" />
<tableentry input="82.000000" output="158.000000" />
<tableentry input="93.000000" output="149.000000" />
<tableentry input="103.000000" output="140.000000" />
<tableentry input="115.000000" output="131.000000" />
<tableentry input="127.000000" output="122.000000" />
<tableentry input="140.000000" output="113.000000" />
<tableentry input="153.000000" output="104.000000" />
<tableentry input="166.000000" output="95.000000" />
<tableentry input="178.000000" output="86.000000" />
<tableentry input="190.000000" output="77.000000" />
<tableentry input="200.000000" output="68.000000" />
<tableentry input="210.000000" output="59.000000" />
<tableentry input="219.000000" output="50.000000" />
<tableentry input="226.000000" output="41.000000" />
<tableentry input="232.000000" output="32.000000" />
<tableentry input="238.000000" output="23.000000" />
<tableentry input="242.000000" output="14.000000" />
<tableentry input="246.000000" output="5.000000" />
<tableentry input="248.000000" output="-4.000000" />
<tableentry input="251.000000" output="-13.000000" />
<tableentry input="252.000000" output="-22.000000" />
<tableentry input="256.000000" output="-40.000000" />
</ADXLOOKUPTABLE>

And the table from ALDL file:
TABLE 1 --- COOLANT TEMPERATURE

A/D DEGREES
COUNTS C
------- -------
255 -40
251 -30
250 -25
247 -20
245 -15
241 -10
237 - 5
231 0
225 5
218 10
209 15
199 20
189 25
177 30
165 35
152 40
139 45
126 50
114 55
102 60
92 65
81 70
72 75
64 80
56 85
50 90
44 95
39 100
34 105
30 110
26 115
23 120
21 125
18 130
16 135
14 140
13 145
12 150
0 200

[1leg]

Looks like C' and F' are matching when logging, Could some thing be wrong in the wiring on my truck? My buddy is going to bring over a better Multimeter and help me check out the sensor. I'm sure this truck is not running that hot.

[1leg]

Waiting on my buddy to show up, I was warming the truck up, it has a 190' tstat. pointing the gun right at the radiator inlet it went to around 195' and then started cooling down as if the tstat opened.

C' is 10' higher on the log then the gun.

I'll let you know the results after my buddy get here with his multimeter.

[gregs78cam]

couple things. temp gauges can differ from CTS by as much as 20 degrees depending on location, water pump flow etc. and IR guns can vary by a LOT depending on the surface it is pointed at. google emissivity.

http://www.omega.com/prodinfo/infraredthermometer.html

If your CTS shows proper resistance at both ends of the temp range then I would go by that. Your temp guage is just that - a gauge, not a meter - readings can vary.

[gregs78cam]

It's just not in the data stream... don't know if a guy good enough at hacking bins could make it work, wouldn't be worth the time really, just play with timing and watch for knock counts and back off.

I was just re-reading this thread, and noticed this. If there is a (well commented) hac for this mask, replacing something trivial in the datastream with spark advance should be pretty easy. I have changed half a dozen datastream outputs to items I want instead of what the factory thought I should have.

I did find a hac, and it looks like the Spark Advance value is located at L006A. If you were to create another .adx value with the same packet offset as say, Eprom ID only labeled "Spark Advance"...

Then create a new Constant in the .xdf with a location of L053D, Write comments to say something like "change this value from 00 02 (Eprom ID) to 00 6A to datalog Spark Advance".

That should do it. If this sounds too difficult I could probably do it tomorrow when I have my laptop with me.

[EagleMark]

I don't know of a hac for $4F? It's almost identiacal to $42 adx except for one byte name change.

But since you asked I started this thread as to not hijack what we are working on here...
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?547-42-adding-spark-advance-to-Data-Stream

EDIT: Ha! Your were editing when I was posting. You found a $4F hac?

[1leg]

Ok, i'm lost after checking both sensors out looks like they are working properly, I will start tracing the wires back to the ecu to see if i have a short some where. The only other thing i can think of is the ecu could be bad. I'm still not convinced that the engine is running this hot.

[gregs78cam]

Like I said, if the CTS checks out good at both ends of the temp range I would go by that, it has a much higher resolution when comparing temp to resistance. If you wanted to really check it out, find a thermocouple.

[EagleMark]

Ok, I'm lost after checking both sensors out looks like they are working properly, I will start tracing the wires back to the ecu to see if i have a short some where. The only other thing i can think of is the ecu could be bad. I'm still not convinced that the engine is running this hot.I really don't know the answer, but do have a question? Is your temp gauge the stock dashboard? Terribly unreliable. Or is it a mechanical thermocouple type gauge? Way more accurate.

Also your temp, in data log anyway if I remember went to 230ish before it opened and then settled down to 212ish. That is a sticky thermostat! Changing out a T stat is cheap and easy... I just had a bad experience with a cheap thermostat in my LT1, was new when I flushed cooling system and would stick not quite closed and motor never really warmed up, heater was blowing cool air, though my heater core got clogged again. Then when I filled up and checked fuel mileage I knew I had an issue and did a data log that showed I never hit warm up.

Anyway I pulled T stat and went to NAPA, had one from AutoZone because they were open... just holding the 2 I noticed the one from NAPA was twice the weight. Looking at it carefully I noticed everything, every piece was much better made. Installed it and car warmed up fast and stayed there with good heat! So I tested the cheap T stat in boiling water and inferred gun. Took forever to open which was exactly opposite of my heat problem? Way off from degrees stamped on bottom. Pulled it out of boiling water and watched it close. That's when I noticed it was not closed all the way! Cheap piece of poop cost me 5 MPG that tank and I was cold for 2 weeks!!!

Moral of story is get a quality thermostat! :happy:

[1leg]

Tstat is a quality piece, but it's new and could be bad.

This is all a non issue now, CEL is blinking again. I'm starting to think the ecu is just bad. something is wrong. I'm going to try the hard reset again. Maybe i should convert to the 7747 will i'm at it, this truck has a KS so it shouldn't be to difficult right?

[EagleMark]

I think it's a plug in swap? If you need to repin go all the way to 16197427... Blinking? Not on steady? Again? You may have a bad ecm...

Least you realize new parts don't mean properly working parts...

[1leg]

I think it's a plug in swap? If you need to repin go all the way to 16197427... Blinking? Not on steady? Again? You may have a bad ecm... Blinking really fast. Are you sure a 7747 is i plug in swap?
I don't really want to get into repining this truck


Least you realize new parts don't mean properly working parts...
Been working are cars for to long to not know that.... oh the stories.

I want to thank you guys again, i hope i'm not coming off as not listening about this temp problem.

[gregs78cam]

If you need to repin go all the way to 16197427...

I was wondering how long it would take before this was suggested. +1^, you won't regret it.

[EagleMark]

Blinking really fast. Are you sure a 7747 is i plug in swap?
I don't really want to get into repining this truck


Been working are cars for to long to not know that.... oh the stories.

I want to thank you guys again, i hope i'm not coming off as not listening about this temp problem.Nope, I think your working on it, but if the ECM keeps going bad/blinking they may be connected?

No I am not positive but if you pull ECM and take picture of plugs and socket on ECM we can tell. I'll look to see if I have wiring diagrams of 1228747...


I was wondering how long it would take before this was suggested. +1^, you won't regret it.I think we did on first page? :laugh:

But he's got a project and just needs to get this running right.

Tap the ECM and turn key on? Still binking? Leave it blinking and tap ECM... tap tap tap... any change? Tap harder? Seriously this is a GM service manual test!

[1leg]

some pics let me know if you need something else.

I got a PIN out diagram for the 7747, i could go out and verify the wire colors and pin outs are the same.

[jim_in_dorris]

The factory wire colors aren't necessarily accurate. You really need the 8747 diagram to go with the 7747 diagram, then you can be sure. When my son gets home tonight, I will have him get on alldata and get the pinout. Unless somebody has a mitchell's manual available.

[EagleMark]

some pics let me know if you need something else.

I got a PIN out diagram for the 7747, i could go out and verify the wire colors and pin outs are the same.Sure looks the same! There's loads or wiring diagrams and pinouts for the 1227747 in the ECM information thread. That would tell you how close you are, but like what jim_in_dorris said below? I think you may find them identical, same year, same truck just 1/2 ton to 3/4 ton got your 8747 ecm. What's wrong with just a replacement 8747?


The factory wire colors aren't necessarily accurate. You really need the 8747 diagram to go with the 7747 diagram, then you can be sure. When my son gets home tonight, I will have him get on alldata and get the pinout. Unless somebody has a mitchell's manual available.That would be a great help if you can get wiring diagrams and pin outs. Our 8747 ECM Information thread needs them...

[1leg]

What's wrong with just a replacement 8747?

It looks like the 7747 has more support, I would love to dive deep into the 8747, but not enough time and long learning curve don't mix.. If i need to buy a new ecu and the 7747 is a easy swap then i will go with it, if not then a new 8747 will go in.

I would be great full if your son could get me a diagram. I was going to join the alldata, but it seemed expensive for just a wire diagram.

[1leg]

I went out and took some notes on my pin out and the wire color, I know color can very, but if i could find a good wiring diagram it might help.

[EagleMark]

I would be great full if your son could get me a diagram. I was going to join the alldata, but it seemed expensive for just a wire diagram.Maybe we should all pitch in and get all the diagrams we need? :innocent2:

But if you get a 7747 you'll need a chip, and a limp home chip. They don't come with them... are you set up to burn chips yet? Hey, PM TunedPerformance, he had a bunch of 7747 for sale, look in classified!

[1leg]

Yes I can burn, but I would need to add a G2.

Ill look

[1leg]

Just ordered another G2 adapter from moates. I ordered the socket booster I'm going to try it before buying a 7747 just to see if it will help doubt it but at least the question will be answered for everyone. Should be here Tuesday.

[EagleMark]

You got a G2 in this 1228747?

[1leg]

yep!

[EagleMark]

Well I'm glad this test is getting done... waiting patenitly...

[1leg]

Weird thing, I had the batt and ECU unplug all night and day today, just got home, plugged everything in. No blinking CEL. truck runs normal.
What i know. Both times that i had blinking CEL was when i tried to start the truck in the morning, and cold out side, 45-55' (i know its socal and i'm a wimp).
Why only in the morning when it's cold? (i drove this truck every day last week started fine every morning, same temp)
Why does it take all night to reset? It sat for 4-5 hours with Batt disconnected yesterday and wouldn't clear the Blinking.

[1leg]

With the computer back up i was able to connect to both WINALDA and TPRT to track coolant temp. looks like WINALDA runs about 10'F cooler then the data on tunerpro rt and around 5'C cooler. Not a radical different, still seems high compared to the infrared gun. I think i will need to install a thermocouple type gauge just to verify.

[jim_in_dorris]

Sorry for not getting back sooner, I didn't see my son until this evening. It turns out that the reason I couldn't log into alldata is that the dealership where he works changed their license and the password I had is no longer valid. I will try tomorrow to drop by his work and see if it is on that computer, otherwise I have a friend that has the Mitchell repair manual manual and I will see what he can find. I just looked at my photocopy of the 87 v10 chevy pickup ECM terminal ID and is shows 4.3, 5.0 5.7 and 7.4l all using the same connectors.....

[EagleMark]

Weird thing, I had the batt and ECU unplug all night and day today, just got home, plugged everything in. No blinking CEL. truck runs normal.
What i know. Both times that i had blinking CEL was when i tried to start the truck in the morning, and cold out side, 45-55' (i know its socal and i'm a wimp).
Why only in the morning when it's cold? (i drove this truck every day last week started fine every morning, same temp)
Why does it take all night to reset? It sat for 4-5 hours with Batt disconnected yesterday and wouldn't clear the Blinking.It has to clear codes sooner than that! Since it seems temp related it may be a bad ECM again. When you get it running good have you tapped the ECM? It is a GM test to find loose stuff in ECM intermittent issues.

Or! Wonder if you have a weak battery? Colder it gets weaker they are, could be dropping way low voltage from starter draw not leaving enough for EFI. Put a volt meter on batterey and see what it drops too when cranking cold!


With the computer back up i was able to connect to both WINALDA and TPRT to track coolant temp. looks like WINALDA runs about 10'F cooler then the data on tunerpro rt and around 5'C cooler. Not a radical different, still seems high compared to the infrared gun. I think i will need to install a thermocouple type gauge just to verify. Infered is still on outside of thick metal being cooled by fan, sensor is in actual waterflow where it is even when thermastat is closed water is flowing there. Now if you get an accurate mechanical gauge for temp it is still going to be a little differant at differant location. But if it's differant and higher, closer to EFI reading then... I don't know... I can change the conversion in adx to add or minus some degrees but the ALDL file right now is what the adx file is... so I'm kind of at a loss as what to do? Maybe run engine till hot and stick temp gauge in CTS hole and run engine to see what it says for comparison? Mechanical gauges are more accurate, if we knew somehow what actual temp was at that spot were CTS is I could adjust adx...


Sorry for not getting back sooner, I didn't see my son until this evening. It turns out that the reason I couldn't log into alldata is that the dealership where he works changed their license and the password I had is no longer valid. I will try tomorrow to drop by his work and see if it is on that computer, otherwise I have a friend that has the Mitchell repair manual manual and I will see what he can find. I just looked at my photocopy of the 87 v10 chevy pickup ECM terminal ID and is shows 4.3, 5.0 5.7 and 7.4l all using the same connectors.....V10 would be 1/2 ton and 1227747. He has 3/4 ton, probably V20? 1228747. That is what we need wiring for. We have the others. Thanks for the help Jim!

[gregs78cam]

OK, so I decided to look into this coolant temp issue, and by looking at the hacs it is hard to figure out how the ecm is converting volts to steps, but the ADX is not using a simple equation (like $0E, $0D et al)to convert steps to temp it is using a lookup table? I looked at the $42 stuff, and it is the same? hmmmm, why would you use a lookup table in the early stuff, and just a linear equation in the later stuff? They all use the same sensor. Wierd.

[EagleMark]

Maybe because 160 baud to 8192 baub pin E to Pin M? Size of chip?

Wonder what it would read if done without lookup table?

[gregs78cam]

Well the datastream still spits out 0-255 A/D counts, I just don't know why the .adx uses a look up table, when it would be easy to copy the .adx value from a later .adx. The reason his temp are off may be because the lookup table when graphed is not linear.

[1leg]

So the ecu could see a different temp then what I see on the datalog(adx).
The. Ecu could ba making adj, based on a 190* temp, while I'm reading 230 on the log. Do just tune tell I see knocks.

[EagleMark]

I don't know but I tried it and it does not work.

Also played back a data log from my truck $42 in his $4F since the adx is almost identical except for one bit name change... and my temps from recording were correct in his $4F adx.

So his truck is running hot! It is not an adx issue.

[gregs78cam]

Yea the two use almost identical lookup tables.

[1leg]

I want to thank you both for taking the time to look into this. I will place a mech-temp sensor in a water neck space about 3" away from the CTS. It will be after the tstat but it should show close to same temp when its open.

[jim_in_dorris]

Okay, I stopped by the dealership and looked up an 89 2500 suburban 7.4 L 4x4 and ended up with the ECM connector identification page which is identical to my 87 1/2 ton pickup. It had an ECM part number of GM 88999146 which is apparently a 7747. Either ALLDATA is way wrong here, or they are pin to pin compatable.
Looking at 1legs excel chart and my notes, I think that it is pin compatable. Pin C2 is not used in trucks, nor is pin C7.

[EagleMark]

I'll have to look at C2 and C7 for curiousity now... but I thought they were going to be identical, his adx played my 1227747 $42 data log perfectly.

I think the difference is 1228747 is for Turbo 400 trans, no TCC Lock up? But kick down. 1227747 is for 700R4 TCC Lock up.

If Dave w reads this, this is why I was consdering the TCC lock, unlock switch on brake pedal for his 16197427 conversion for Turbo 400 kick down switch.

[jim_in_dorris]

C7 is high gear switch, which is not used by 7747 according to pcm swap notes posted by fast on TGO. C2 is the AIR diverter in trucks, and my truck doesn't have one. Also, in the pcm swap notes that pin is not used (E7)

[JeepsAndGuns]

I thought the "high gear switch" was something in the trans that sent a signal to the ecm to let it know the trans was in its last, or high gear, so the ecm knows when it can lock the torque converter. Or do I have that completely wrong?
I know nothing about automatics.

[1leg]

Added socket booster today, No blinking light before, blinking light after, going to go back to no booster to see if blinks.....

Still blinking.

[EagleMark]

Push the chip up and down, tap ecm, I'll bet you got a bad solder on whatever you soldered in there for new chip...

[jim_in_dorris]

Just plug in a 7747, lets see if it works

[1leg]

Just plug in a 7747, lets see if it works

Got one i can borrow, serious.

I just bought a 427 to start the conversion. I have gone back to the stock chip and i still get the blinking light. And yes i have tried everything twice, and taping on it, everything but drop kicking it over the garage....:mad1::mad1:
I'm going to pick your part tomorrow morning. if i'm lucky i'll find a 7747 or 8747. I also want to find one to rob the connector from.

I have been doing some research on the G2 and every picture i see shows a resister on the G2, i have 3 and non of them have a resister on them.
This picture shows the G2
1613 1614

[gregs78cam]

Mine doesn't have a resistor either, I was wondering about that awhile back as well.

[EagleMark]

Well the resister on the picture is the top, your other picture is bottom... just looked at my 1227747 I keep for tuning that has the G2 in it and no resistor. It has worked fine on a dozen cars last couple years... but I solder it to board, no dip, chip fits under cover.

If you have the ECM out check the solder to board, if nothing is wrong you really sound like you have a bad ECM...

[1leg]

If you have the ECM out check the solder to board, if nothing is wrong you really sound like you have a bad ECM...

yep checked the soldering on the board, Even ohm checked the ribbon. every thing check out fine. must be a bad ecu, or something else. Wish i had a know good to verify, maybe i'll find one tomorrow. I don't want to spend the money on a new one if i'm going to do the 427 swap.

[EagleMark]

There only $20 at most pull and saves...

[1leg]

Scored i think, got to ecology wrecking yard when they were opening the gate. with in 25 minutes i had a 7747(ASDZ) and a 7427(BPSA) both out of G20 van so they were easy to pull. Had some time to walk around and found some other items i needed like a under hood fuse/relay panel out of a Caddy. ECU were a little pricey at $33 bucks a piece without warranty. I will be looking up the bcc now, then i will pull the chips to get the bins.


Looks like the 7747 is the same year as my suburban and engine, only differences is the 700r4 vs my th400. Should i just plug it in to see if it will work? Could i hurt some thing by doing this?

[EagleMark]

Yes plug it in and drive for a test! This will also prove your 8747 is bad. See if it sets a code, probably trans TCC? Only issue in theory is turbo 400 kickdown, which you already have in truck so just need to figure how to wire/switch it.

[1leg]

I just checked the wiring to compare with other 7747 diagram. This computer doesn't have the EAC SOL brown wire on C2, My 8747 doesn't have it ether. I'll go plug it in now and see if it will start.

[EagleMark]

What's an EAC?

Do you mean ESC for knock sensor? Some 7.4L TBI engines did not have knock sensor...

[1leg]

What's an EAC?

Do you mean ESC for knock sensor? Some 7.4L TBI engines did not have knock sensor...

I'll check that out. I know my suburban has a knock sensor.

First test drive, No CEL, TCC activates th400 kickdown. Slight off idle stumble other then that run pretty good, temp still reading high. Should i start a new tread for a 8747 to 7747 swap, I want to make this work before i go down the 427 swap road. i'll have a lot of question.

[1leg]

What's an EAC?

Do you mean ESC for knock sensor? Some 7.4L TBI engines did not have knock sensor...

Here is what i'm seeing for EAC

[EagleMark]

That's for air pump, your truck probably didn't have one, mine does not either.

EAC Valve An abbreviation for Electric air control valve. This is the GM version of a diverter air gulp valve, providing three functions in a single valve
•the normal diverter valve function, i.e., it diverts air on rapid increase in manifold vacuum;
•it relieves pressure by diverting air to the air cleaner when the air injection system pressure exceeds a certain set level;
•being solenoid-controlled, it allows air to be diverted under any desired operating mode

EDIT: Added it to abbreviations which JeepsandGuns is turning into dictionary as well.

http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?171-EFI-Acronyms-and-Abbreviations

[gregs78cam]

Electronic Air Control Solenoid.
electrically operated valve to switch sir pump feed between AIR ports in exhaust manifolds, and catalytic converter.

http://books.google.com/books?id=3AJxi5DzoBcC&pg=PA740&lpg=PA740&dq=gm+eac+solenoid&source=bl&ots=DHUxd6d5ft&sig=kSMi1DsaVCAizoZvxEdFwJRQ5Ok&hl=en&sa=X&ei=sus2T4CPNoqCtgfVw_2WAg&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=true