Need help with my tuner pro

[Jwathen23]

Hey guys I finally got my ostrich 2.0 in the mail to tune my truck since I've put a marine intake and vortec heads on it... I'm on tuner pro rt and have my proper ald xds and bin files. But my blms at idle to about 1500 rpm are 140.. and I can't for the life of me find the ve tables or any fueling tables for that matter.. can someone please help.. I'm a newbie this is my first attempt at tuning

[buddrow]

What ecm/bin/adx are you using? In Tunerpro, there are parameter trees that pull down to display the deciphered calibration settings. The tall narrow box on the left of the screen, double click on an item and it should expand listing parameters, scalars, etc.

Buddrow

[Jwathen23]

Ok so I found the ve tables.. must of been tired last night... my bin is bjdr 94 c-g-k truck 5.7tbi 4l80e.bin XDF file E6_TPV5_v250.XDF adx file is A201_E6_v250.adx.... now I'm trying to tune my spark tables and I've heard you do it through knock counts.. well my knock counts read 24136.. somethings not right here.. can someone explain?

[Roadknee]

There's a little more to setting up timing tables than looking at knock counts. If the knock counts are rising during a given engine operation you may have too much timing in that area. However, knock counts do not necessarily mean you have too much timing. Several of us have encountered "false knock" with these TBI trucks and have disabled knock retard altogether.

Vortec heads require more timing than the TBI swirlports. I've attached a screenshot of a modified vortec timing table in a TBI truck I've had good luck with. It should be a good starting point for you. This particular engine is 10:1 and tickled the knock sensor at 1200-1600 rpm above about 60 kpa. Your engine might tolerate a little more timing in that area. Copy the same values into the idle spark table.

Zero out your PE spark as shown in the screenshot and if your marine intake deleted EGR, disable the EGR as shown too.

[Jwathen23]

Thanks man I'll try it out I'm the process of fooling with it now .. after I get the timing tables down will I have to fine tune the ve tables again?

[Jwathen23]

And also what's the best way to adjust the timing tables?.. here in a weeks I'm going to have a mild cam for it and I'd like to know the best ways to get this thing figured out.. it's a lot harder then I thought it was..

[Fast355]

There's a little more to setting up timing tables than looking at knock counts. If the knock counts are rising during a given engine operation you may have too much timing in that area. However, knock counts do not necessarily mean you have too much timing. Several of us have encountered "false knock" with these TBI trucks and have disabled knock retard altogether.

Vortec heads require more timing than the TBI swirlports. I've attached a screenshot of a modified vortec timing table in a TBI truck I've had good luck with. It should be a good starting point for you. This particular engine is 10:1 and tickled the knock sensor at 1200-1600 rpm above about 60 kpa. Your engine might tolerate a little more timing in that area. Copy the same values into the idle spark table.

Zero out your PE spark as shown in the screenshot and if your marine intake deleted EGR, disable the EGR as shown too.

I do not like Zero'ing out the PE spark. There is good reason to keep it, especially if you keep the stock PE entry and delays. This is what I was running in a L31 suburban with long tubes and a F-car LT1 cam.

http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff172/Fast355_album/attachment-2_zpskhqldydp.jpeg (http://s243.photobucket.com/user/Fast355_album/media/attachment-2_zpskhqldydp.jpeg.html)

[Jwathen23]

Apparently I don't belong programing this thing.. I mean I know how a motor works I know everu thing about them.. I'm a dirt track racer and I'll tell you no computer is alot easier this this!! Trying to tune my ve tables now and can't get nothing to run right... I still have a retard knock of 9.5... can't figure out how to turn it off... I think I'll have a beer and try again in the morning

[Jwathen23]

This is what I'm working with

[Roadknee]

That idle VE table is really messed up. you shouldn't have any zero's. Copy the values from a stock table and it should run better.

Also, find the PE delay under scalars and set it to zero seconds.

[Jwathen23]

Yea I figured I messed it up a bit lol the stock ve table isn't any better to be honest with you maybe it was because I didn't have my spark tables right

[Fast355]

Yea I figured I messed it up a bit lol the stock ve table isn't any better to be honest with you maybe it was because I didn't have my spark tables right

Sounds like you are using the wrong .XDF file!!! VEs are not that bad in stock form. Get the correct .XDF file for your .BIN and start over from a STOCK .BIN.

What exactly is your truck?
Year
Chassis
Engine
Trans

[Fast355]

Reason I ask is a stock 4L80E does not use $E6. It is either $31 or $OE depending on year.

[Fast355]

I just noticed you mentioned BJDR. BJDR is a $OE binary file. Meaning you should use the .XDF for $OE.

[Jwathen23]

The truck is a 94 gmc k2500... but the ecu I have is a 16168625 BJDR which is for a 93.. maybe split year...I'm Sur I have the right bin not sure about XDF I'll check after breakfast

[Jwathen23]

It's got the right XDF file.. I used a stock ve table and I'm getting it down pretty good in thr low rpm range... turned thr knock retard off as well as the egr tuned pe delay to zero.. now I'm having a hard time getting fuel in the 1600 to 1800 rpm range at high loads..

[Roadknee]

To get good BLM data in the high load cells you can try increasing the throttle position where PE is activated. Set all the cells in the TPS for PE vs RPM table to 60 percent. Set all cells in the TPS for Fast PE vs. RPM table to 60 percent. With these settings you should get good BLM data to 90 kpa or so.

[Fast355]

The truck is a 94 gmc k2500... but the ecu I have is a 16168625 BJDR which is for a 93.. maybe split year...I'm Sur I have the right bin not sure about XDF I'll check after breakfast

BJDR is $OE, any other XDF is wrong.

[Jwathen23]

My bin is BJDR OD.bin I got that from this site.. my XDF file is a $0e as well as my adx... so I guess my bin is $0D and my adx xdf is $0D on my bin when u downloaded it it says it will work with $0E.. is that correct?

[Jwathen23]

Here's the pic of my bin xdf adx

[Roadknee]

There is also a BJDR $OE bin you can download from this site. It should be correct for your truck since you have a 4L80E

[Jwathen23]

No matter how much fuel I put in the 60 map range to the 80 map range I cannot get the blms off 150

[Six_Shooter]

No matter how much fuel I put in the 60 map range to the 80 map range I cannot get the blms off 150

That's because those values get truncated to 100 (Actually 99.71 IIRC), anything above that and there won't be any difference.

I don't recall all the details of the code you're running specifically, but there should be a secondary table, such as an adder table that will multiply the main VE, but again, if the value exceeds 100, then it gets truncated to that.

What you will need to do to get around that is to adjust the base pulse width component, usually BPC or BPC VS EGR, or BPW, or something along those lines. Increasing this number will add more fuel, but you will need to reduce idle and part throttle fueling in the main VE table to compensate.

Also are you tuning strictly off BLM data, or are you also looking at a WBO2 read out. I have found many times that BLM data can be misleading. This is especially true if the O2 sensor is old, or has been fouled by an excessively rich condition previously.

What do the plugs say? What's the exhaust look like?

[ony]

is the defferencse In od an oe the 460 and the 480 trans or is there more to it?

[Roadknee]

That's because those values get truncated to 100 (Actually 99.71 IIRC), anything above that and there won't be any difference.

I don't recall all the details of the code you're running specifically, but there should be a secondary table, such as an adder table that will multiply the main VE, but again, if the value exceeds 100, then it gets truncated to that.

What you will need to do to get around that is to adjust the base pulse width component, usually BPC or BPC VS EGR, or BPW, or something along those lines. Increasing this number will add more fuel, but you will need to reduce idle and part throttle fueling in the main VE table to compensate.

Also are you tuning strictly off BLM data, or are you also looking at a WBO2 read out. I have found many times that BLM data can be misleading. This is especially true if the O2 sensor is old, or has been fouled by an excessively rich condition previously.

What do the plugs say? What's the exhaust look like?

The codes running the 7427 ecm ($0D, $0E, etc.) have an idle VE table and a main VE table. These table are not added together, and there is no other adder table. The idle table is used under certain low rpm low throttle conditions and offers a little better resolution.

These codes also don't have BPW or BPC. There is a scalar for injector flow rate. If your engine needs more fuel than you can provide with a VE value of 100, you need to reduce the injector flow rate. If you reduce the injector flow rate 10%, reduce the values in the VE table by 10% also, except the area where more fuel is needed.

[Jwathen23]

Ok well I'm confused as to what bin xdf adx files I should be using I'm having a hard time finding all thr files that match it'd a 1994 gmc k2500 with a 4l80e.. my ecm is a 16168625 BJDR...

[Jwathen23]

Also my wide band o2s are all 10s they don't seem to move I use blm data only

[Jwathen23]

Well I'm done with it.. apparently I'm not meant for programing so if anyone wants to buy a ostrich 2.0 with the alds cable let me know lol

[Six_Shooter]

Ok, so as I expected, the BLM data is wrong. If the WBO2 is showing very rich (10s+) and the BLM is showing 150, then the two don't jive... lower numbers on the WBO2 indicate a rich condition, higher numbers on the BLM indicate a lean condition. Remeber, for BLM, below 128, the ECM is taking away fuel delivery, above 128 the ECM is adding fuel.

This is where a false rich is being seen. Sometimes that can be due to an EXCESSIVELY rich condition, or a failed O2 sensor. This is also why an ECM can only adjust so much on its own, and needs the VE and spark to be pretty close to start with.

Reduce the fuel in the areas that you believed were lean and you should see your AFRs come back in line. Ignore BLM data data, and use open loop to tune with with (set closed loop enable to 255/max). Use the WBO2 readings to get everything in check.

Don't give up yet, many of us that tune didn't get it right away, some not even after a few months but playing and reading got us to where we are today. Hell, I've been tuning for about 10 years or so, and I STILL learn something new about tuning most times when I go out tuning, especially in my friend's '71 Cutlass that's a combination of parts that shouldn't work so well. lol

[Jwathen23]

I thought that you were soposed to tune in closed loop.. didn't know I could tune in open loop... Ive never read about thr wbo2 thats why I never used it I've only read to adjust in closed loop using blm data... the o2 sensor is brand new but maybe it's messed up from being to rich.... which would explain why I could get my fuel tables knocked down one min (or at least think I did) only to turn the truck off and break for a sec then data log again and get completely different blms sometimes way lean sometimes way rich.... I'm trying to get this thing half way tuned before this weekend cause I'm going on a annual camping trip my family has been doing for 20 plus years and my truck is in no shape to tow my camper right now

[Six_Shooter]

Tuning in closed loop will make you chase your tail. The ECM will often counter the adjustments that you make, or worse yet already be making adjustments while you're trying to adjust the fueling, making a see-saw, tail chasing situation.

What WBO2 do you have?

[Jwathen23]

I just have the stock o2 sensor.. I thought the wide band o2 was a different one then stock.. am I right?

[Jwathen23]

Also I have no cats on the truck it has the y pipe then a glass pack at about a foot past where the cat would be.. has a stock o2 sensor right past the y pipe

[Six_Shooter]

Yes, WBO2 would be a seperate O2 sensor... You mentioned that your WBO2 sensor was reading in the 10s....

So now I'm confused, you say you don't have a WBO2, but you have data from somewhere that says that you're running in the 10's AFR? If you're using any calculated value based on the NBO2 sensor, ignore it. The NBO2 sensor is really a switch and not a sensor... look out the output curve of a NBO2 sensor and you will see a very steep line that is around 14.7 AFR (for gas, AKA Lambda 1.0), and very flat shelves above and below that switch point.

[Jwathen23]

On my tuner pro rt when I go to the history tables it has the option to look at blms off idle blms at idle knock retard... and one is wbo2 and on my dashboard (dashboard on tuner pro) I have a wbo2 gauge that stays at 10... that's why I never paid attention to it... so basically me using my stock o2 sensor to adjust blms in closed loop was a nightmare? What do you suggest get a wbo2 and tune ve tables in open loop? Sorry this weekend was my first Crack at tuning and I have to say it's not as fun as I thought it was going to be lol... what wbo2 should I buy?

[Six_Shooter]

OK, so that "WBO2" data on your dash is not really anything. If it's set up how I THINK it might be set up, it'll be stuck at 10 because there's no actual input to read, and default would be 10, ignore it.

Well, there are ways to tune in open loop and no WBO2, but that's usually only after you've tuned for a long time and can recognize the patterns you need to...

Yes, I suggest getting a WBO2 sensor, that will give you better data about fueling than any NBO2 can, especially for a beginner. Even when you have a WBO2 you don't follow it as gospel, you use it as a guide to make sure that nothing changes drastically. Many people will tell you to tune for a certain AFR, which is wrong, every engine will like a different AFR, even two identically built engines will likely respond differently to the same AFR numbers. Tune for what the engine wants, and by that I mean, read plugs, read the exhaust, use your nose, use your butt, USE YOUR SENSES! If the engine is lugging, figure out why, is it a lack of fuel, or a lack of spark advance? Is the engine bucking? Is the exhaust so rich that your eyes are watering? And more like that, use common sense. Most of the adjustments you will need to make will be in the main VE and Spark tables, so concentrate on those two, but don't completely ignore others, like AE, DE, decel settings, and a cou0ple others that will become apparent as you get used to tuning.

Let go back to the basics here...

Just to make sure, when you are tuning, you have selected real time emulation by clicking on the blue square that looks sort of like a computer chip in the tool bar, and a rectangle at the bottom says "emulating", correct? Also you are uploading changes to the Ostrich, by clicking the upload buttons at the top of each table, correct? You have disabled checksum, by changing the MASK byte from "0D" or "0E" to "AA", correct? If you don't disable checksum when you emulate and upload only partial tables or single changes (as happens when you use the 3D maps), then the ECM will go into either full Limp Home Mode, or partial LHM, which will make tuning even more difficult, nigh, impossible.

As far as WBO2 sensors, everyone will give you a different opinion. I;ve used Innovate LC-1, 14point7.com products and AEM (Failsafe gauge). My favorites so far are 14point7.com, the features, reliability and price can't be beat. I'd suggest either the SLC_DIY or SLC_PP2, because they have built in displays, and are complete units, at a great price and offer extra capabilities if you ever feel you need them in the future, like logging extra inputs. They also have native USB connections, so no flaky serial to USB adapters to mess with. Not that you will need to connect to the WBO2 (often), but if you wanted to datalog just what is available to the WBO2 (and it's many optional inputs), then you can easily.

[Jwathen23]

First I've heard about changing the mask byte to aa... I have the ostrich hooked up I'm emulatin and data logging at the same time... I click the blue icon and emulation is green at the bottom left..

[Six_Shooter]

Ok, then I can guarantee you that you ECM is going in to at least partial LHM without changing the mask byte, which will make tuning impossible.

[Jwathen23]

Jeeze I wish there was a class I could take lol I've never heard of doing that.. how would I do that.. gonna hit it full throttle tom again see if I can get it running past 35 mph without falling flat on its face...

[Jwathen23]

And what does changing it actually do?

[Six_Shooter]

Like I said it disables checksum, which is a way for the ECM (or many electronics really) to validate the BIN file and see that it's not corrupt. Changing individual bytes without the checksum being recalculated will cause a failure of the checksum. You might have noticed the truck run rough(ish) and possibly the CEL flicker very dimly when you changed individual tables and uploaded them. It seems that a work around is to upload the entire bin, but it's unnecessary, when taking a few seconds to open up the mask byte and change it to AA disables checksum so emulation will work correctly.

You can hit ctrl+f when TP RT is open and that opens a search box that you can type in any serach parameter you want, try "mask" and that should find teh mask byte, if if it doesn't I'll have to look at the XDF you are using to see what it's been called. When you open it, you should see "0E" as the value, since I believe your bin is an 0E bin. Simply type in "AA" and commit the change and you have disabled checksum. You can change it back when you are done tuning or leave it indefinitely, it will not cause problems with the checksum disabled. Just as a re-assurance, my car has been running for 8 years or so off an Ostrich with the checksum disabled the entire time. ;)

[Jwathen23]

Thanks so much for your help I was about to dump 700 into a trans controller and throw a carb and hei in it.. will get back at this tom to see what I can do while I'm waiting for the wbo2 to get here then tune it in open loop using the wbo2

[Jwathen23]

One more question (for the night lol) how would one be able to tune in open loop mode when you try to data log it's going to read 128 blms everywhere?

[Six_Shooter]

No need to get hasty now, and go the carb route (I feel dirty just typing that lol). :P

If you really wanted you could tune in open loop now, but that could be difficult if you're not sure what to feel or sense (smell, taste, etc). It's what I call a "blind tune", since you're not really using much in the way of visual numbers feed back, and is not easy. I've done it every now and then, but I don't recommend anyone do it, unless you are REALLY in tune (no pun intended there) with the vehicle and know what something wrong feels like and what something right feels like.

Did you order a WBO2 already, or are you still looking at some?

[Six_Shooter]

One more question (for the night lol) how would one be able to tune in open loop mode when you try to data log it's going to read 128 blms everywhere?

That's where the WBO2 comes into play, you will see the AFR changing, and you ignore BLM numbers, in fact I almost always ignore BLM numbers, for the actual tuning part, and only use them as a check of the health of the system and the tune.

It's easiest to have someone else drive when tuning this way, so that you can keep an eye on what is happening and at what point and so ytou can change those cells effectively. You can also get the WBO2 data into the datastream to have the AFR feedback so that you can review later. In your case it is likely an EGR position sensor that is repurposed for AFR readingas and the EGR is disabled during this time, which it probably should be anyway, so that the EGR doesn't effect fueling in anyway way while tuning.

[Fast355]

On the otherhand I almost never use a wideband. Tuned for years without them and find they are often not accurate. Innovative LC1 units are JUNK.

[Six_Shooter]

I tuned for a long while without a WBO2 as well, but I have always found that I can dial in a tune much tighter with a WBO2 installed than without one. If a WBO is inaccurate, it's installation related, or the sensor itself is worn out, since any WBO2 on the market today is quite accurate, when installed properly, and properly maintained. With the WBO2 you can see if a little change is made is reflected by what is coming out of the tail pipe, either for the positive or negative in real time. No need to shut the car off and wait for it to cool to read plugs. ;) No NBO2 sensor will show .1 or better resolution in AFR changes from one run to the next, or if that small change at idle actually made an effect or not. ;)

While I don't care for LC-1s, I NEVER had a problem with them, I had 2, one was installed in my car, the other I used for tuning other people's cars. They were reliable, and always worked well. The only time the data was incorrect, or maybe a bit misleading was when the sensor itself was old and failing, other than that they just worked. I don't care for them because they use serial communications, and that requires not one, but TWO adapters to get the data from the LC-1 to the laptop, the mini headphone jack to serial adaptor from Innovate and a serial to USB adapter which in my experience is usually quite flaky.

[Fast355]

I tuned for a long while without a WBO2 as well, but I have always found that I can dial in a tune much tighter with a WBO2 installed than without one. If a WBO is inaccurate, it's installation related, or the sensor itself is worn out, since any WBO2 on the market today is quite accurate, when installed properly, and properly maintained. With the WBO2 you can see if a little change is made is reflected by what is coming out of the tail pipe, either for the positive or negative in real time. No need to shut the car off and wait for it to cool to read plugs. ;) No NBO2 sensor will show .1 or better resolution in AFR changes from one run to the next, or if that small change at idle actually made an effect or not. ;)

While I don't care for LC-1s, I NEVER had a problem with them, I had 2, one was installed in my car, the other I used for tuning other people's cars. They were reliable, and always worked well. The only time the data was incorrect, or maybe a bit misleading was when the sensor itself was old and failing, other than that they just worked. I don't care for them because they use serial communications, and that requires not one, but TWO adapters to get the data from the LC-1 to the laptop, the mini headphone jack to serial adaptor from Innovate and a serial to USB adapter which in my experience is usually quite flaky.

I prefer BLM to wideband and only use wideband data in PE.

Most Widebands require "Free Air" calibrations and become innacurate if this is not performed.

I have an AEM on the Express but found I was pretty darn spot on without it anyway.

[Jwathen23]

What do you guys think of this spark advance history? Doesn't look right