Help with VE tables. Only been tuning for a week or so..

[fasteddi]

Ok Ive got a 1991 3.1L V6 Camaro Auto(730 ECU) that i recently put a larger cam 260 delta re-grind, ported the heads heavly and also all the intakes/TB.
Ive been data logging and re-burned 2 chips so far but could use a little help if possible on getting these VE tables set up first. Seems like I fix one area only to mess up another. The BLM #'s were absolutly horrible when i first started datalogging since the cam messed with the vaccume (MAP) Ive mad a little progress here and there, but well its flustrating.

I attatched a recent data log, it wasent for very long but ive been dealing with a IAC error that i finally got rid of. Any help or advice is great!!

[EagleMark]

I'm really happy we got a good adx for you! Thanks for working with me so I can learn to get it right! I changed a few things, so download $88-V.21 below. It now has Engine data list view so you can see all engine data same time. Separate Error codes and the old default view. You can adjust these to how you want. It's a great feature of TP. The monitor is also set with things I like to watch...

Your also still showing only like 173 degrees totally warmed up? Should be a little higher if you have a 180 thermostat. Would be about right if you have a 160, but that means other changes in bin to start so engine knows it's at full temp at lower setting. I don't know your bin or what to look for there?

Your not going to get good BLM readings to adjust VE tables because you keep dropping out of closed loop for no reason? You may have a bad O2 sensor or loose wire? Play back the log you posted and open list view for Engine Data, open Monitor, play log. Click back and forth from Monitor to List view at these times and you will see. Look at time frame at 06, 106, 138, 319, 446 and several others and you are going open loop. When you go open loop your BLM is OFF/Not Correct. So you are not getting a good average to adjust with.

HTH!

[EagleMark]

I also fixed the website so you can upload xdl TunerPro Data Log files now without being zipped, I thought it was done... till I tried to give MudBuggy one... :homer:

[dave w]

I've looked at the data log posted.

What a can of worms!:yikes:

I looked at the Overall closed loop BLM average; 121 = rich
I looked at the Overall closed loop Integrator average; 124 = rich

Normally I would lower the BPW / Raise Injector Flow, but the idle BLM is about 148 = lean. So lowering the BPW / Raising Injector Flow would make the idle BLM EXTREMELY LEAN!

I would raise only the VE number on VE Cells 800 RPM / 45 , 50, 55 Kpa by 16%. (148/128=1.16)

For example if VE Cell 800 RPM / 45 Kpa is currently 53.46. I would multiply 53.46x1.16=62.01 and change VE Cell 800 RPM / 45 Kpa to 62.01
For example if VE Cell 800 RPM / 50 Kpa is currently 57.57. I would multiply 57.57x1.16=66.78 and change VE Cell 800 PPM / 50 Kpa to 66.78

I'd log again, and verify the BLM averages for the idle VE Cells that were corrected changed from about 148 BLM average to about 128 BLM average.

VE tuning is really an exersize in Math!:mad1:

dave w

[fasteddi]

Ok im going to first try to find and change the values for the fully warmed up temp in the bin, then check the o2 sensor and make sure its ok also i have a new spare one to throw in there in case, then hopefully that all works out then run another log and if its the same values as the first one ill change the values that were stated in the post above me.

Thanks, you think this data logg was a can of beans you should have seen the first few!:laugh:

After i get a datalog the way i like it with the car up to temp easier and closed loops staying intact ill upload the datalog so i can get further input. Thanks everyone as this is really new to me!

[fasteddi]

Heres the latest log. The attatchmen manager said i exceeded the files size so i put it in a zip folder.....I seeemd to get the BLM ave. a little better, i changed the temp threshholds on the bin to a lower one but couldnt figure out the open/closed loop twitch problem. Any ideas? I tryied a brand bew 02 sensor i had and still went to open loop every now and again while logging. I need to work on the idle tables still

[EagleMark]

I increased the xdl size so that should not be an issue anymore.

Maybe your ECM/PCM is supposed to go open loop once in awhile? I'm not that familiar with it. Maybe it has an air pump coming on? Or do you have headers and a unheated O2 sensor in collector getting cold? But I did notice when it went open loop, for no apparent reason your BLM also changed, then went back to normal/where it was. That is why I mentioned it...

When I have time later I'll take a look again. didn't here any complaints on the adx so I'm guessing you get good connection and data first shot?

[EagleMark]

I've looked at the data log posted.

What a can of worms!:yikes:

VE tuning is really an exersize in Math!:mad1:

dave wHe's getting closer but I think the open loop numbers are messing up his overall BLM numbers he is adjusting with? Running minimum and running maximum are so far apart? Yet history average is getting closer each time... I'm really not sure...

[fasteddi]

Yea I disabled the AIR system threshhold temp the 151c since i do not have it anymore. I dont have headers, it was a littler rainy out earlier, you think that water can splash up and hi the sensor and pipe, cooling it down for a split second?? Theres no heater on the 02 sensor, just one wire. I know i need to get a wideband asap for the WOT tuning. The adx file connects every time with no problem at all. Im going to change a few cells and log one more time today then i gotta go to work. ill post the file in its full xdl format. Thanks again!

[EagleMark]

I'm just not sure why it goes open loop like that? Maybe it should in your ECM/mask. Your numbers are getting closer, but in this case I don't think I would use the overall history average. Maybe clear BLM history and do a run and use Most recent Sample to adjust VE... rinse and repeat!

[fasteddi]

Ok ill do that, look at the recent average, that might help me a little. Question though, when its in closed loop idleing at a stop it is really lean, like 135-140BLM. Do i use the idle table or main table for this application??? Thanks! Here it the last log ill be able to do today, seems a little better... starting tommorow its suppose to be alot colder here, like 25 or so outside...is that too cold to data log, figured it would throw off MAT.
?? The last few days its been 45 or so degrees outside.

[dave w]

I'm working on a '0411 harness most of the day today. I don't have much spare time to look at a data log. I export the data log into excel, and sort the open loop / closed loop data. I also use excel to round the Kpa's and RPM's to get the best possible VE table data. Using excel is time consuming, but extremely accurate! I typically use the history table to get the VE close, then finish the VE tuning with excel. I've seen some ECM go into Open Loop Idle. I'm not sure if the $88 has parameters for Open Loop Idle? Cold weather of 25 degrees or so is really an opportunity to get the cold start parameters set.

dave w

[EagleMark]

Ok ill do that, look at the recent average, that might help me a little. Question though, when its in closed loop idling at a stop it is really lean, like 135-140BLM. Do i use the idle table or main table for this application??? Thanks! Here it the last log ill be able to do today, seems a little better... starting tomorrow its suppose to be alot colder here, like 25 or so outside...is that too cold to data log, figured it would throw off MAT.
?? The last few days its been 45 or so degrees outside.His going open loop is not at idle, it's at times there is no reason for? May be the cold weather and O2 sensor cooling as it always jumps back.

Yes use the idle table for adjusting Idle VE. Then main table probably overlaps and tune that with driving data.

Weather changes, that's why a perfect 128 today may not be tomorrow. Close to 128 is good. Like Dave said cold weather is a good time to adjust cold start parameters if you are having issues with cold start, if not leave it alone. If you do make a change you only get one chance the next morning to see how it responds. Cold start tuning issues do take days to work out because of this...

[fasteddi]

I havent had any cold start issues at all so thats a time saver....Ok when i change the idle tables should i change the corrisponding cells on the main VE tables also??

[EagleMark]

We will see what someone more familar with overlapping tables says? In theory no. Idle table is Idle and if the table overlaps to main you are not idling you are driving so there is a load. The ECM will switch tables based on TPS position. So that is back to where Dave has pointed out he sorts data from idle to off idle to make calculations for each table.

[fasteddi]

Well i think sometime when i get a chance tommorow ill go out and plug the chip i burned earlier where the idle table is changed, I added some fuel to the 800 1000 and 1200 RPM/ and 25-50kpa cells. I looked over the loggs and thats about the boundys of the idle. When im idleing in gear is that still on the idle VE table, since im still idleing but now i am in gear with the brake on?? I would think theres a load on the motor when idleing in gear with the brake on, so that BLM i read should be assesed on the Main VE.

I understand that tuning in different outdoor temps will change the tune as tempetures change but in your opinion can i still tune my car when its 30 degrees out and have a tune that will be close when its 70 degrees out?? Mainly the closed loop/crusing tuning. The WOT will be a process ill look at closer to spring since i have no WB 02 sensor and guage.

[dave w]

When an engine is idling in gear the Kpa will change due to the load, the ECM will keep the in gear RPM about the same as idling in park / neutral. The best way I've figured out to keep weather conditions from affecting the tune is to use "Closed Loop" data only. Most all the computer parameters are based on having the VE Tables averaging 128.

dave w

[lightning-jr]

I havent had any cold start issues at all so thats a time saver....Ok when i change the idle tables should i change the corrisponding cells on the main VE tables also??

I look at it this way, the tables need to meet in order to (smooth transition) maintain precision, avoiding large jumps or more erratic PW.

The latest EBL firmware seems to do it for me...or it's just become robotic lol.

[EagleMark]

Well i think sometime when i get a chance tommorow ill go out and plug the chip i burned earlier where the idle table is changed, I added some fuel to the 800 1000 and 1200 RPM/ and 25-50kpa cells. I looked over the loggs and thats about the boundys of the idle. When im idleing in gear is that still on the idle VE table, since im still idleing but now i am in gear with the brake on?? I would think theres a load on the motor when idleing in gear with the brake on, so that BLM i read should be assesed on the Main VE.

I understand that tuning in different outdoor temps will change the tune as tempetures change but in your opinion can i still tune my car when its 30 degrees out and have a tune that will be close when its 70 degrees out?? Mainly the closed loop/crusing tuning. The WOT will be a process ill look at closer to spring since i have no WB 02 sensor and guage.


When an engine is idling in gear the Kpa will change due to the load, the ECM will keep the in gear RPM about the same as idling in park / neutral. The best way I've figured out to keep weather conditions from affecting the tune is to use "Closed Loop" data only. Most all the computer parameters are based on having the VE Tables averaging 128.

dave wI agree with Dave about idle changing cells if in park/neutral or gear it would still be idle table. Once TPS position moves, probably a scaler with amount it would go to main VE.

[EagleMark]

I look at it this way, the tables need to meet in order to (smooth transition) maintain precision, avoiding large jumps or more erratic PW.

The latest EBL firmware seems to do it for me...or it's just become robotic lol.So EBL is becoming self sufficient? Auto Tune?

[lightning-jr]

I'm interested in SA learn...knock based algorithm...

Edit: You gotta get one soon...you'll shzit when you see w/what a C3 can do.

[fasteddi]

Ok im getting irritated that my BLM #'s are so high at idle. Ive played with the idle table for 3 chips and cant budge it and i added alot of fuel. Any ideas on what else to do and its in closed loop. Do those idle ## really need to be at 128 or is 138 ok for just ideling for gas savings just like the deacceleration mode where the ecu takes fuel out while coasting to a stop.? Heres another quick log really i drove it just to see the idle #'s If you watch the last few seconds of the log i would rev the rpms up to about 2k and it would still have high BLMs My history table and average running table wouldnt be so bad if it wasent adding the high BLM #'s from the idleing and when i reved the motor up at then end. Still needs work but seems everytime i play with the values i get one better but mess another up.

[dave w]

Sometimes I need close to 20 chips to get the BLM's averaging correctly.:rolleye: Sometimes when I'm working with BLM's, the adjacent cells are causing the cell that is being adjusted to be lean / rich no matter how many times I change the values.:mad1: Try increasing / decreasing the VE values of the cells near the cells that are problematic. Usually when I get BLM's of 135 ~ 128 / 121 ~ 128, the Integrator will compensate enough for good drive-ability . Typically, I will use the Excel spreadsheet to fine tune the BLM's from 121 ~ 135. Sometimes, the best possible tune will be with BLM's between 121 ~ 135 in a few cells. Usually I place a high priority on getting the Idle VE BLM's as close to 128 as possible. Overall, drive-ability at idle very important when considering, idling at stop lights, idling during stop and go driving during rush hour traffic.

dave w

[EagleMark]

I'll look through your log again to try and help.... but..... do you happen to have an exhaust leak anywhere from head to past the O2 sensor?

I know you changed cam, had an IAC issue which could have been a vacuum leak... have you done a thorough vacuum leak test?

If you have a vacuum leak it will let in air, un accounted for air, and make the O2 sensor think it's lean and add fuel even if it's rich...

Bigger cams also can through off an O2 sensor reading so it adds fuel when it does not need it. In cases like this you need to run open loop idle and tune it.

Do you have a vacuum gauge? What's the reading at warmed up idle? Is it steady?

[EagleMark]

You've been adding fuel to idle and no changes? Still lean?

What's your cam specs @.050, should be on your cam card.

Again what is vacuum reading at idle?

This is a MAF system?

[fasteddi]

My cam is 209.6 Durration at .050 intake/.429 lift
212.1 Durration at .050 Exhaust/.436 llift
111.9 lobe Separation.

It is a speed density sysyem. Not MAF

The vaccum is about.. 10 inches.. I know thats kindof low. Thats at the end of a data log when i checked it. So the car was 180# temp. When idleing it will go from 9.5 inches to 10.25 inches, it has a little choppy idle, but nothing like a big V8 cam.

Yea ive added a good 10 to every cell that it idles in just to see if i could get the BLM to move, and it moved mabey 2# in the BLM. But the int#s are where there suppose to be 130.

Ive done a good vaccum leak test spraying starting fluid and listing for the RPMS to move. Ill go do it again though and see if i overlooked any. I also have no exhaust leaks I made sure that i fixed any possible ones when i re-assembled the engine from when i ported the heads and added that cam. Its really easy to hear a V6 exhaut leak.


When the car is in open loop it does smell rich at idle, and im sure its lean at WOT in PE mode. But when its closed loop you can go smell the exhaust and there is no smell of gas what so ever compared to the open loop idle where the exhaust fumes will burn your eyes..

[fasteddi]

Well son of a &*^%$ I found a vaccum leak. Not relly sure exactly where it is but when i sprayed the front middle intake with the starting fluid the rpms changed. Im thinking i need to rip of the top plentum and middle plentum which has the fuel rail attatched to it and start over on assembling it. Theres too much stuff to know exactly where the leak is.. Also i was told to disable the EGR and the CCP while tuning the VE tables... So i got to fix that leak first before I attempt to tune anymore.

[EagleMark]

Yes, you have to fix the vacuum leak! Then start tuning from stock bin again... that cam will idle much higher vacuum!

But glad you found it because you will never get the tune right with it. You will probably notice not all plugs reading are the same either as a couple cylinders are lean from vacuum leak causing O2 to add fuel to all...

[fasteddi]

Found the leak easily.... I, dont laugh, forgot to put one bolt in the middle intake that attatches to the lower intake. When i put my finger on the hole i could feel the vaccum and was relieved i found it but was mad that i did that when i put the motor back together. But i did assemble the motor all back together in like 8 hours and it was bare, long block only with trans hooked up.

I recorded the vaccum at idle and warmed up at 11.5 inches and up to 12 inches. Is that better? Its about 2 inches more now then before i fixed the leak. I think stock on these 3.1L V6's is arround 15 inches, but i did port the heck out of the heads and all the intakes also...

[fasteddi]

Also the KPA now is 38-39 and the kpa before the fix was 33-34. I just sprayed the crap out of the motor with carb cleaner, no bog , no drop in rpms.

[EagleMark]

Depends on where you live, what elevation? 19 to 20 is about right for a stock engine at sea level. 12 is still pretty low, even with that cam in Denver! Plug your PCV valve and see how much it goes up? IIRC it should only go up about 1/2 inch...

You may have damaged the intake gasket running it like this, and may not be able to find a leak because it is under the intake inside the engine. But do check again the way you did before.

[fasteddi]

Ok i messed up again. I have a vaccum gauge that i use for Heat, Vent, A/c equitpment.(HVAC) And it only reads bar, psi, and kpa but is extreamly accurate(better it cost 300 bucks) Now i messed up the conversion because i forgot that vaccum is oppisite from KPA, As KPA goes up Vaccume goes down. So After looking over my recorded log of it idleing in open loop it is about 19.2 inches and i live at about 600 feet above sea lev.

This is correct right 0kpa=29.5 inches of vac. and 100KPA=0inches of vac.

Those numbers look better hu? Like i said im a beginner and mess up sometimes.

Also IIRC. speed density doesnt get affected from vac. leaks so bad compared to MAF since it just reads the MAP and the amount of air in there no matter where it comes from...ie vac leaks, iac, egr. EXC But i did check further and no vac leaks anymore and the BLM's did actually drop a little out of the red zone while data logging at idle. There about 134 now which is better then the pegged 140 it was at earlier today.

[dave w]

If you attach your current .bin, .xdf, .adx, and .xdl files in a zip file I'll take a closer look at current tune late this evening. I might be able to help get things running decent? I consider decent BLM's of 121 ~ 135.

dave w

[fasteddi]

Ok here are the files. I just used the 4th chip ive burned, since i fixed a vaccum leak and didnt know how much it would affect it. Didnt look much different then before when i logged that bin file. I just data logged this bin file a few min ago. Thank you!

[dave w]

Ok here are the files. I just used the 4th chip ive burned, since i fixed a vaccum leak and didnt know how much it would affect it. Didnt look much different then before when i logged that bin file. I just data logged this bin file a few min ago. Thank you!

Ok,
Might take me till tomorrow morning before I have any suggestions.

dave w

[fasteddi]

Ok,
Might take me till tomorrow morning before I have any suggestions.

dave w

Thats fine. Really appreciate your help and suggestions!!

[EagleMark]

Ok i messed up again. I have a vaccum gauge that i use for Heat, Vent, A/c equitpment.(HVAC) And it only reads bar, psi, and kpa but is extreamly accurate(better it cost 300 bucks) Now i messed up the conversion because i forgot that vaccum is oppisite from KPA, As KPA goes up Vaccume goes down. So After looking over my recorded log of it idleing in open loop it is about 19.2 inches and i live at about 600 feet above sea lev.

This is correct right 0kpa=29.5 inches of vac. and 100KPA=0inches of vac.

Those numbers look better hu? Like i said im a beginner and mess up sometimes.

Also IIRC. speed density doesnt get affected from vac. leaks so bad compared to MAF since it just reads the MAP and the amount of air in there no matter where it comes from...ie vac leaks, iac, egr. EXC But i did check further and no vac leaks anymore and the BLM's did actually drop a little out of the red zone while data logging at idle. There about 134 now which is better then the pegged 140 it was at earlier today.OK 19.2 inches of mercury is great.

But vacuum leaks do affect Speed/Density systems horribly. It drops MAP reading making the ECM think there is a load and adds fuel that is not needed and also adds air to only a few cylinders which then send wrong info to O2 sensor as well. Snow ball effect and no way to tune it out...

We all make mistakes no biggy...

Anything you have done to tune with the vacuum leak was a wastes of time. dave can probably get things back in order but you should really start again with stock VE tables. Now you will have accurate data log to adjust from.

What tipped me off to a vacuum leak was you said you keep adding fuel to idle but it still read lean? Then I knew...

I am curiuos if it is still going open loop here and there?

[fasteddi]

Well its gonna snow tonight... which suxs so i cant drive it anymore for a day or 2 then itll be nice and 40 out again/ I did drive after i fixed up the vac leak with the 4th modified bin filei have( I never didint change that Idle VE much at all only changed Main VE in this file) it was close to the same for the BLM ##'s but it still went into open loop here and there. Idk mabey the wire that runs back up from the 02 sensor is broken somwhere in the wire sheathing.. and when the car shakes just right mabey the o2 sensor is not getting the resistance it needs.

Where does that 02 sensor wire run to, closest to the ECU as possible?? I could Ohm the wire out tommow sometime and see if its got resistance when i shake the wire and such.
Thanks for the info on speed density systems, sometimes the info i learned is shaky because it was from people who though they knew more then they did.

If i do the conversion right then before it was at 18.1 inches and 19.2 so its amazing what one little bolt.
As soon as i can i will data log a original bin file just to have a base point for my data history

[EagleMark]

The little change in vacuum is nothing compared to what cylinder is was going into and the mixture coming out scewing your O2 reading...

Usually a purple wire from O2, here's a link to wiring diagrams for 1227730.
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?330-1227730-ECM-information

Then you could find the pin on ECM...

[fasteddi]

Ok that helps alot!! Thank you for the link! I will ohm the wire out tommorow.

Also, this is sorta off topic but, is there a way to get a wide band o2 and monitor it with tuner pro?? I can only afford so much at this time. Or do i have to use a guage that works with the wideband. Sure wish they made good kits for less. The least i could find a sensor and gauge is 200$

[EagleMark]

There's some tricks with differant ECMs to input, then output into data stream but I have never done that. I have an AutoProm which has inputs for wires from Wide Band O2 sensors, then you can add them to the adx.

[fasteddi]

Ok thanks, Ill do some researching. I would think i'd need to change the input and output values somewhere in the raw data in the Bin file to accomidate the .0-.5 vts of the WB compared to the .0-1.2vts or so of the NB sensor. Then i'd would think id need to add a monitor for the WB in tuner pro. Im not really sure though but ill look arround for info. Bosch looks like a decent WB 02 sensor with a decent sampling rate for about 60 bucks. Id have more cash but just spent a good 200 bucks on the tuning stuff.

[EagleMark]

I don't belive it is possiable to replace the narrow band input with a wideband, many people think this at first... adding a monitor in TunerPro is not hard, getting then info into your ECM is a project that many have done. Or get an AutoProm... actually just look at Dynamic EFI website. Their wide band plugs into laptop and records, but I have never used it...

[dave w]

I've looked at the information posted, .bin, .xdf, .xdl, & .adx. The Idle VE table is used when the vehicle speed is 3 MPH or less. Using Excel is likely the best option to tune this vehicle! I've posted a screen shot from Excel adjusting a couple Idle VE Cells. I've also attached the Excel Spreadsheet, which has my formulas to adjust VE.

dave w

[fasteddi]

Ok dave thank ill look though my data and make adjustment that way, in excel.

Eaglemark, what if i kept the NB sensor and added a WB sensor, would that be the route for adding a WB for my car since i couldnt change the raw data that the ecu retrieves from the 02 sesnor? Just use the WB for datalogging only?? And the NB is there for the ecu.

[fasteddi]

I've looked at the information posted, .bin, .xdf, .xdl, & .adx. The Idle VE table is used when the vehicle speed is 3 MPH or less. Using Excel is likely the best option to tune this vehicle! I've posted a screen shot from Excel adjusting a couple Idle VE Cells. I've also attached the Excel Spreadsheet, which has my formulas to adjust VE.

dave w

I can open up the file you uploaded but both of your files are the same. There both screen shots and i can see the forumulas you set up.

[dave w]

I can open up the file you uploaded but both of your files are the same. There both screen shots and i can see the forumulas you set up.

Ooop!

Try this one.

dave w

[fasteddi]

Ooop!

Try this one.

dave w


thank you!! that one works!

[fasteddi]

I think i did this right... i attatched the excel sheet. I take it im suppose to do the same with the MAIN VE table. One q though?? How do you get excel to sort the data by MAP and RPM value together? I know how to sort them one at a time but not together where the values will both be decending, I have the Main VE info set up and removed the 3mph and lower along with the open loop stuff.

[fasteddi]

nevermind i figured it out.

[dave w]

I think i did this right... i attatched the excel sheet. I take it im suppose to do the same with the MAIN VE table. One q though?? How do you get excel to sort the data by MAP and RPM value together? I know how to sort them one at a time but not together where the values will both be decending, I have the Main VE info set up and removed the 3mph and lower along with the open loop stuff.

There are other who might like to know?

Yes, data greater than 3 MPH is Main VE table.

I insert new columns for R-RPM and R-Kpa. I Round the Kpa and Engine RPM. In this case Ronded Kpa by 5 and RPM by 200. If needed change the round by formula from 5 to 10 for rounding Kpa by 10, or change round by 200 to 400 to round RPM by 400.
I then select all the data and sort the rounded RPM / KPA.

A short cut key stroke to help speed up the select all the data ~ Shift + Ctrl + Arrow Key (up , down, left, right)

dave w

[fasteddi]

If any one can get a chance, could you look over my chart. Its for the Main VE tables. I think it is finished.

What about the kpa and rpm cells that i dont have data for?? Just leave them alown unless i data log them and there not good?

Thanks again!

[dave w]

If any one can get a chance, could you look over my chart. Its for the Main VE tables. I think it is finished.

What about the kpa and rpm cells that i dont have data for?? Just leave them alown unless i data log them and there not good?

Thanks again!

You can leave the cells without data "unchanged" for now. Later on you might need to "smooth" or interpolate things some?

I quickly looked at the attached spreadsheet. I noticed the R-Kpa and R-RPM cells did not have the rounding formula? I noticed some RPM's / Kpa might not be rounded correctly, I would think a Kpa of 57.81 would round to 60 Kpa not 55 Kpa? I looked at a couple of the BLM's averaged, looks good. I looked at a couple of the New VE values, and see (BLM's averaged / 128) looked good.

Excel will "drag" formulas down a column. Once the round formula is set in the first cell at the top of the first column, the cursor will change to a + symbol so just drag the + symbol down the column and the round formula follows the drag.

I think you get a passing grade.:thumbsup: You have figured things out!

I should have mentioned this earlier, I usually don't change VE when the BLM averaged (excel spreadsheet) is between 126 ~ 130 on the first few data logs. It does not hurt anything to change BLM's that already average between 126 ~ 130.

dave w

[fasteddi]

I actually didnt see your post on the rounding until after i made the excel sheet...opps... So I basically rounded the figures up and down manually then copy and pasted the rounded number to speed the process up. So for instance 50kpa rounded was values from 48kpa to 52kpa and 55Kpa rounded was 53kpa-57kpa. Would this rounding process still work ok? I hope so because it took me a good 1 1/2 hour to make that chart. But if that needs to be rounded the way you did then ill go back in there and fix them up. I still need to pop the new numbers in my VE table.

Ill just leave the values out that were near 128+-2. I kindof figured i wouldnt need to modifly them but did anyways to get my feet wet in this process.

Thanks so much for the guidence on how to get the VE tables in order better then they were!

[dave w]

I actually didnt see your post on the rounding until after i made the excel sheet...opps... So I basically rounded the figures up and down manually then copy and pasted the rounded number to speed the process up. So for instance 50kpa rounded was values from 48kpa to 52 and 55Kpa rounded was 53kpa-57kpa. Would this rounding process still work ok? I hope so because it took me a good 1 1/2 hour to make that chart. But if that needs to be rounded the way you did then ill go back in there and fix them up. I still need to pop the new numbers in my VE table.

Ill just leave the values out that were near 128+-5. I kindof figured i wouldnt need to modifly them but did anyways to get my feet wet in this process.

Thanks so much for the guidence on how to get the VE tables in order better then they were!

I think it is OK to use the rounded values you have for now, but I don't think going forward with any new data logs it's a good idea.:nono: The rounding, will move the data into the VE Tables just like the ECM is using the VE Tables. Having the data rounded like the ECM is using the VE Table is very important and makes a world of difference in the tuning!!

I will combine several data logs (from one chip burn) into one very large Excel Spreadsheet. I've had as many as 5,000 BLM's for one cell (Kpa / RPM) in one spreadsheet. I know it takes a couple hours to sort and average just one data log, so why not have 4 or 5 data logs combined into one spreadsheet? The time it takes to sort and average one very large spreadsheet is not much longer than doing just one data log with one spreadsheet. Having several data logs combined will populate some of the cells that don't get BLM data very often.

dave w

[fasteddi]

ahh i see what ya mean! Makes sence. Well considering the fact that i can drive the car for a few days because of the weather i will change my values and set up the database better. One thing though when i put new values into the bin VE charts, it seems that tuner pro changes some of the values so slightly. Thats normal right?

[EagleMark]

Also don't worry about every cell! You will never fill them all, it is imposable. When done you will see a pattern of cells used under all driving conditions that need tune, then just smooth the transition to other cells that were never hit.

[fasteddi]

Is this chart set up better??? I havent made the corrections on the VE chart values yet. Just wanted to make sure the template was ok. THANKS!

[dave w]

Is this chart set up better??? I havent made the corrections on the VE chart values yet. Just wanted to make sure the template was ok. THANKS!

Template looks good.:thumbsup:

I can see the rounding formulas in the R-RPM / R-Kpa columns. I'm sure you know this, but others might not, make sure all the data is selected / highlighted blue when doing a sort. When all the data is selected, Excel will keep the data with the entire row of information, which means the BLM's and other data in a row will stay with that row as it is being sorted by R-RPM / R-Kpa.

dave w

[fasteddi]

Yup I hi-lighted the whole selection when sorting. After another 1 1/2 and i came up with this.. check it out if ya can. The BLM averages that were close to 128 i just left as its been a long day/youll see what im talking about.... I think everythings ok!? Im off to work so I hope it looks good. Thanks again so much!

[dave w]

Yup I hi-lighted the whole selection when sorting. After another 1 1/2 and i came up with this.. check it out if ya can. The BLM averages that were close to 128 i just left as its been a long day/youll see what im talking about.... I think everythings ok!? Im off to work so I hope it looks good. Thanks again so much!

I did not look at every VE adjustment ( about 6 or 7 of them at random ), they looked good to me. It's a chore, but I know you will like the end result once the BLM's get better.

dave w

[fasteddi]

Ok thanks again for the help in setting up excel. :thumbsup:
Ill go datalog tonight or tommorow and see what the results are.

[fasteddi]

Ok i had a little problem and had to replace a old freeze plug that was rusted out on the front of my block. But after i replaced it i wanted to make sure it didnt leak so i let the car run for like 15 minuets. I actually ran it so long i had to turn the fan on for once. I havent dont that since summer. Anyways I used the newer chip with the modded VE idle and main tables that i was working on. I literly had 133BLM the whole time even when i was reving it up. I put the data into excel and looked at it, every one of the 500 rows was 133. I reved it up here and there to keep it in closed loop. Should i mess with those tables anymore?? The BLM value was a littler higher before i started recording but once i reved it up a few times it went down to 133 and stayed there for the 4 minuets i was recording.
Thanks for any insite!!!!
I think i will get a chance to datalog tommorow before work so ill record a long long datalog, 30 minuets im hoping. Suppose to be 40 outside tommorow(much warmer then today....25)

[EagleMark]

Good tip for testing cooling system is what you did! But then shut it down and pressure will build more. I have a radiator pressure pump that replaces the cap and you can pump up the system to pressure on cap and check for leaks.

Those BLM are so close I wouldn't bother? Right now...

But since you did that and have a weather change, when you do it again tomorrow and see how temp/weather effects the numbers. Colder is denser, below 32 is also drier! You have a good opportunity to show us how that effects the BLMs.

I do shoot for little richer than 128 on a modified engine, but you may be there come warmer weather. I don't think I have ever tuned at those temps?

[dave w]

Ok i had a little problem and had to replace a old freeze plug that was rusted out on the front of my block. But after i replaced it i wanted to make sure it didnt leak so i let the car run for like 15 minuets. I actually ran it so long i had to turn the fan on for once. I havent dont that since summer. Anyways I used the newer chip with the modded VE idle and main tables that i was working on. I literly had 133BLM the whole time even when i was reving it up. I put the data into excel and looked at it, every one of the 500 rows was 133. I reved it up here and there to keep it in closed loop. Should i mess with those tables anymore?? The BLM value was a littler higher before i started recording but once i reved it up a few times it went down to 133 and stayed there for the 4 minuets i was recording.
Thanks for any insite!!!!
I think i will get a chance to datalog tommorow before work so ill record a long long datalog, 30 minuets im hoping. Suppose to be 40 outside tommorow(much warmer then today....25)

I would leave everything as is, and just data log for 3 maybe 4 more long data logs ( 20 ~ 30 Minutes). I'd combine the 3 or 4 logs, and then see where the BLM's are. I agree with EagleMark, BLM's change with weather. BLM's of 133 are just barely acceptable! I also agree with EagleMark, 126 ~ 128 would be much better for a modified engine.

dave w

[EagleMark]

So which way they gonna go when it gets warmer dave? I've been trying to remember and even looked for summer datalogs, but I tossed them.

[fasteddi]

I wish i had that tester you have, or i should make one like it for the future. I havent gotten to tune for temps higher then 50 degrees, today it was 25 when i did the Idle log, so i am going to wait till thurs, or friday when the temps will be in the mid 40's . I checked the plug 20 min after i shut it down and no leak thankfully!!! Im sure though that the 2 in the rear of the block will go in due time also though....

I plan to drive for 2, or if i get time, 3 data logs. Then ill set up a big chart for the Idle and Main VE's. So we can see if the BLM change due to the wet and dry bulb temps.

Thanks for the tips I will adjust the BLM in the idle log to be closer to the 126~8. I wasent sure so thank you for the advice. I was amazed at how steady the BLM's were though. I know its just idle but i reved it up here and there and it was solid on 133.

[dave w]

So which way they gonna go when it gets warmer dave? I've been trying to remember and even looked for summer datalogs, but I tossed them.

I can't really say which way the BLM's will shift with modest weather changes, mostly because this engine is using a MAT sensor.

dave w

[EagleMark]

I wish i had that tester you have, or i should make one like it for the future. I havent gotten to tune for temps higher then 50 degrees, today it was 25 when i did the Idle log, so i am going to wait till thurs, or friday when the temps will be in the mid 40's . .Just do a data log tomorrow, like you did today and compare! We could get an idea? we all learn...

I think Dave is right though... with a MAT sensor EFI system would probably see much less change then say a 7747 that is MAP/Speed?Density but no MAT!

[fasteddi]

Well its about 35 or so degrees out so I guess ill go drive for a bit, Ill let ya know how the BLM's go as its suppose to get to 40. Thats a 15 degree difference beteen yesterday and today.

[fasteddi]

Just got done reading my 25 minuet log, the BLMs were ok but a little lean so i didnt wana keep driving arround with the counts staying at 133~135. But almost half of the data i recorded was good. About 4000 of my excel rows were at 126~129BLM and the INT was with in 5 of the BLM. I already got another chip burnt (did the excel templet thing) so im ready to go! Im attempting to get a longer datalog this time. The temp out is 32 degrees as of the last data log. Im thinking that if it was like 60 out that tune would have been ok???? If i can get all the BLM's to be from 126~130, I think ill leave it at that for now as im thinking that the warmer it gets the more rich it will be. This isnt a daily driver...i only really drive it in the warm months of the year.

The one thing that makes me laugh is that my graphs of the VE tables look like the rocky mountains!!!! but yet the #'s im recording are really cood compared to what they were before.

[EagleMark]

Give the engine what it wants! Has always been a racing term.

Even stock tables are not smooth, people like smooth, engines want what they need at that given point!

[fasteddi]

Give the engine what it wants! Has always been a racing term.

Even stock tables are not smooth, people like smooth, engines want what they need at that given point!

Good point! Will do.

[dave w]

Just got done reading my 25 minuet log, the BLMs were ok but a little lean so i didnt wana keep driving arround with the counts staying at 133~135. But almost half of the data i recorded was good. About 4000 of my excel rows were at 126~129BLM and the INT was with in 5 of the BLM. I already got another chip burnt (did the excel templet thing) so im ready to go! Im attempting to get a longer datalog this time. The temp out is 32 degrees as of the last data log. Im thinking that if it was like 60 out that tune would have been ok???? If i can get all the BLM's to be from 126~130, I think ill leave it at that for now as im thinking that the warmer it gets the more rich it will be. This isnt a daily driver...i only really drive it in the warm months of the year.

The one thing that makes me laugh is that my graphs of the VE tables look like the rocky mountains!!!! but yet the #'s im recording are really cood compared to what they were before.

I do wonder from time to time; how does someone tune without Excel?:yikes:

dave w

[fasteddi]

Im not sure either as this way seems to work ALOT faster!!! Thanks for teaching me.

[fasteddi]

Well i made a long data log and after i got rid of of the open loop and 3MPH and under rows i was left with 10,000 Rows. For the most part it was good although i would say that the warmer air does play a roll as it ran richer, after i changed some values from the data log this morning when it was colder and dryer out. But over all it was ok, average was 123.9BLM for the Main values and 133.67 BLM for the idle values. I already went back through and fixed the numbers on excel and burnt the chip, but im off to work so no more logging tonight.

One thing i did notice is the numbers that were really bad, were in cells that i never changed yet. Like i said my graphs look messed up since ive never changed values in some areas, exspecially the idle ones.

[EagleMark]

You can go back and datalog and try to hit those cells. If in the middle of 2 thenfill it with a number inbetween. I get my kid to drive so I can watch data and tell him little more throttle, little less, OK right there! We also have highway with flata and mountain grades close by so in a half hour with driver I can cover all possible cells! Like I said some are impossable to get! They are just there to complete the table. Like 100 MAP at 400 RPM? Well you may hit that in a rockcrawler but rods would be knocking..., but how are you going to hit 20 MAP at 400 RPM? Look at your history table and normal driving is like an oval of cells. WOT is a square 80 to 100 MAP RPM from idle to 6000 RPM.

Then there's always the smooth tool! :innocent2:

[fasteddi]

Ive seen that smooth tool there but i didnt wana mess up what ive already got. Im not positive how to use that tool well??? What does the .10 .20 and so on mean? 10 % 20 %? And would i just use them on the cells that I havent changed? Thanks again man!! Friday its gonna be 50 and sunny!! Probly the last day for a long long time. I dont have to work till 5 so I plan on getting those tables done, at least for now till its spring. Im so hooked on this tuning that its like im chasing the perfect ve tables, which im sure there isnt on. A good one, yea. But not a perfect one.....

[EagleMark]

It's been a while since I used the smooth tool but we did have a discussion about it on TunerPro forum awhile back. Just make a copy of your bin and play with it. Pick the tuned cell and the one off the chart and a number in smooth tool, I forget if small number does big change or vice versa. It will make cahnges to both to smooth a transition. I'll put it on my list for writeups...

[dave w]

Ive seen that smooth tool there but i didnt wana mess up what ive already got. Im not positive how to use that tool well??? What does the .10 .20 and so on mean? 10 % 20 %? And would i just use them on the cells that I havent changed? Thanks again man!! Friday its gonna be 50 and sunny!! Probly the last day for a long long time. I dont have to work till 5 so I plan on getting those tables done, at least for now till its spring. Im so hooked on this tuning that its like im chasing the perfect ve tables, which im sure there isnt on. A good one, yea. But not a perfect one.....

Perfect VE ... best I've done with about 20 or so chips, was a BLM of 127.6 and an INT of 128.4 when averaging of all cells and all Kpa's together. I've used the smooth tool for a baseline VE, but I don't smooth the VE table. I think a smooth of about 0.55 for spark is excellent!

dave w

[fasteddi]

Does the "deacceleration mode" were the BLM's drops under deacceleration, is that included in the data log that i export into excel????? I think thats messing up my average. The BLM's are like 107 or so on those cells and if i just ignore them my average blm today after a 20 minuet log was... 127.915. But with those bad cells(about 1000 our of the 5000 cells.)The Average was 124.31

thanks for any tips!!

[fasteddi]

Heres a short log. The only time the BLM's go low is in deacceleration mode. And the idle seems like it was ok at times but could it be saying its so lean because of the Deacceleration mode taking out so much fuel. The BLM's were fine for idle untill i started driving and logging it. The averge BLM seems fine except when adding in the de-acc mode and the crappy idle VE

[dave w]

Heres a short log. The only time the BLM's go low is in deacceleration mode. And the idle seems like it was ok at times but could it be saying its so lean because of the Deacceleration mode taking out so much fuel. The BLM's were fine for idle untill i started driving and logging it. The averge BLM seems fine except when adding in the de-acc mode and the crappy idle VE

I looked through the excel spreadsheet, and did not see a column for deceleration mode?

I looked through the .bin and did not see parameters for deceleration fuel cut off? I'm not familiar with $88.

I averaged all the BLM's cells = 125.4, and averaged all the Integrator cell = 126.6.

I think maybe try averaging idle VE tables with data that is 2 MPH or less?

I think maybe try averaging main VE tables with data that is 5 MPH or more?

I'm just wondering if the transition from Idle VE vs. Main VE is not calibrated? Maybe some of the 3 MPH and 4 MPH data is causing a the Idle VE table to be incorrect?

I think maybe I would data log with the vehicle moving at idle speed on a level grade for about 1 mile or so ( a few laps around a big parking lot usually works) and look at the data.

I agree, the Main VE looks decent. Focus on the Idle VE for a few logs.

dave w

[gregs78cam]

I think maybe I would data log with the vehicle moving at idle speed on a level grade for about 1 mile or so ( a few laps around a big parking lot usually works) and look at the data.

I think that really is not necessary, as the time spent at <3 MPH and still moving is so little that it really shouldn't matter. From my experience usually the Idle table really only uses maybe 6 cells at the most, unless the CTS is low, but then he would be open loop. Now if he raised the MPH for Idle threshold then he could use more of the table when decelerating. But I would definitely filter out the data while in DFCO, and Decel. Enleanment if he has that.

[EagleMark]

Just looked through the $88 xdf and it is not well developed. It has no mention of DFCO in scalers, bimasks or tables. I was going to say just disable it, tune, enable it! Done!

But without those paremeters in xdf I think he should just ignore DFCO BLM readings and tune around them. It's not going to make it run better in DFCO cells, just DFCO better...

[fasteddi]

Ok i will try to close the gap on the idle tables this morning. If i changed the Idle speed in the Bin would what would that change? Its set at 3mph for now but if i changed it to 1 or 2 mph, whould that have any effect?

Anyways i was so glad to see my data yesterday when i got home. Im pretty close to the BLM's i want except for the idle.

I will just tune arround those DFCO #'s. I watched the play back just to make sure, but all the bad values were in DFCO. Its gonna be nice,warm, and sunny so ill make a good amount of datalogs and then put them all together.

For my spark tables, i dont get any spark knock and my base timing is set at 16* compared to the stock 10*. Should i just smooth the table out and leave it at that? Im not sure where to start with the SA tables...

[dave w]

Ok i will try to close the gap on the idle tables this morning. If i changed the Idle speed in the Bin would what would that change? Its set at 3mph for now but if i changed it to 1 or 2 mph, whould that have any effect?

Anyways i was so glad to see my data yesterday when i got home. Im pretty close to the BLM's i want except for the idle.

I will just tune arround those DFCO #'s. I watched the play back just to make sure, but all the low values(less then 120) were in DFCO. Its gonna be nice,warm, and sunny so ill make a good amount of datalogs and then put them all together.

For my spark tables, i dont get any spark knock and my base timing is set at 16* compared to the stock 10*. Should i just smooth the table out and leave it at that? Im not sure where to start with the SA tables...

When you change the SA tables, the data log will show many of the VE Table / BLM's will be affected by the SA change. Typically, I only smooth the SA Table before I begin tuning. Typically, I'll only make small changes (usually 1 or 2 degrees) in some of the SA Table cells due to knock. I have often advanced a base timing by advancing the distributor a few degrees to find knock areas and test performance gains with more timing advance. Sometime an entire SA table can be advanced 4 ~ 6 degrees by advancing the distributor, but usually not. It more likely many of the SA timing cells can be advanced 4 ~ 6 degrees with the appropriate VE table changes.

Welcome to tuning:
More SA = More Performance?
More SA = More VE Table Changes?
More SA = More Knock?

Try things(trial and error), that is tuning. You now have a tool box full of tuning tools (Data Logs and Excel)!:thumbsup:

dave w

[fasteddi]

:rockon:Ok thanks dave!!

[EagleMark]

I will just tune around those DFCO #'s. I watched the play back just to make sure, but all the bad values were in DFCO. Its gonna be nice,warm, and sunny so ill make a good amount of datalogs and then put them all together.
They will always be bad in DFCO unless DFCO is disabled. Then when done tuning you enable DFCO and they are bad again. Does not mean it's wrong. Just means DFCO is working. DFCO = Deceleration Fuel Cut Off! So if you cut off fuel how would they ever be 128? This is just another advantage to EFI. Saves gas, puts out less pollutants.

[fasteddi]

I data logged for a good hour straight today, and after like 30 minuets i went WOT, just figuring id delete them when i get into excel. So im attempting to clean up the mess of numbers, then see what i got. I think there good and the idle table was much better ill link up some stuff when im done. I smoothed the spark tables just a hair. And left them at that. I think for the most part im done with the part throttle and idle tuning for a while. They look good to me and its nice outside now but snow and cold is a comming in a few days, although it was 55 out today!!!

[dave w]

I data logged for a good hour straight today, and after like 30 minuets i went WOT, just figuring id delete them when i get into excel. So im attempting to clean up the mess of numbers, then see what i got. I think there good and the idle table was much better ill link up some stuff when im done. I smoothed the spark tables just a hair. And left them at that. I think for the most part im done with the part throttle and idle tuning for a while. They look good to me and its nice outside now but snow and cold is a comming in a few days, although it was 55 out today!!!

It seems the tuning you have done so far is getting you in dialed in? I've noticed your posts are more about tweaks in the tuning process. This is actually good news!

dave w

[fasteddi]

Heres the table of the values...for ave BLM. I think i should just leave them be till spring. They seem to be ok and im not positive i got all of those deacceleration blms numbers out. But 125.XX is ok right?? This is after i smothed the SA tables.

Ill add the idle ones in a few min just to see the average/

[fasteddi]

Heres the idle table.. a little off ..132 average.. but it wasnt pegged at 138-140 like it has been. Im liking the tuning process, exspecially when ya get results and can see how your chip makes a difference!

Is there a way to lock the idle so that it only idles in one VE cell??? Ive heard of doing something like that but im a littel confused.

[fasteddi]

It seems the tuning you have done so far is getting you in dialed in? I've noticed your posts are more about tweaks in the tuning process. This is actually good news!

dave w

Thanks dave! Well between you and mark i really am getting ahold of the tuning, and datalogging!

[fasteddi]

After sifting through all those ## in excel from the lastest log i was quite happy. I did have some changes but that was the longest log ive ever done, a good 45 minuets. Else then the deacceleration ##'s being really low 100blm or so, the others were good. I did finally see which cells i drive the most in as those ones were the ones that i dont have to change. The averages for about half the log was dot on 127~128!:rockon:


Can anyone else confirm this question i have? Ive heard debate over it. Now when i deaccelerate the BLM's drop to 100~110. Is that my deacceration mode kicking in? Ive been told the BLM's should lock at 128 and that i should change those cells? I have never seen any such DFCO infromation in my $88 mask V6. I though that the low BLM's were like that because it is takeing out fuel because of the DFCO mode?:mad1: Im just hearing 2 dif storys and i need to know if i should change those cells, which i already have the new #'s for. Gotta love excel!

[dave w]

I'm not sure how DFCO is programmed in $88. The only time I've needed to make adjustments for DFCO programming was when I was tuning a SBC 383. The problem I was having was with the 383 DFCO was an exhaust BACKFIRE at 35 MPH when decelerating from freeway speed. The backfire was so severe, a muffler could have been blown out!

With tuning, there are going to be debatable adjustments. I think I would play it safe, and half step the changes you have ready to go. For example if your changes are 10%, play it safe and only make a 5% change. Most times when I make a "safe" change, the data will show if I the change helps or not.

If you do an "average" of the new VE value you have ready with the old VE value, the average function will split the difference between the old VE and the new VE.

dave w

[fasteddi]

Ok dave thanks! Id rather play it safe too. Ill see what the dif. between the new and old VE's are.

[EagleMark]

I've been looking at your data logs and still don't understand DFCO in this mask, unless it's turned off! Then yes readings would be rich, that is what happened with carburators. My 7747 and LT1 both go lean BLM in DFCO... if $88 locks BLM at 128 in DFCO then your need to change DFCO settings... but you don't have any?

So find your DFCO cells and take out 10% fuel and see if they lean out?

[fasteddi]

I've been looking at your data logs and still don't understand DFCO in this mask, unless it's turned off! Then yes readings would be rich, that is what happened with carburators. My 7747 and LT1 both go lean BLM in DFCO... if $88 locks BLM at 128 in DFCO then your need to change DFCO settings... but you don't have any?

So find your DFCO cells and take out 10% fuel and see if they lean out?

Yea im lost in where the DFCO is in the mask too. Ill just take the fuel out a little at a time in certaint cells and see if that helps. What a weird mask. It actually like 40-45 degrees out again. Thankfully winter doesnt want to be here. So ill go test it here in a bit.

[fasteddi]

Ok I added 4# of spark in total today, the only time i got any reading of spark knock is when i shut the car off?? Is that ok? Im going to leave the SA Main table at that if so.

My idle is great(BLM 130.5 average from 0-3mph, and i had about 1500 cells to look at) I think the BLM of 130 average is good since it was alot colder today then the last time i datalogged, since i used those numbers to mod the tables. (35 and sunny today compared to 50 and sunny the other day) Ill hope that if it was 50 out those BLM's would have been lower. Also the BLM was steady!! Very steady! Int's were no more then 8 numbers difference. but mostly with in a few digits.

The thing that is driving me nuts is:mad1: That no matter how much fuel I pull out when i cost, deaccelerate, the values stay low 110~112. Ive taken out 20% of fuel at one point and those numbers never changed. Truthfully im lost at why i cant budge those numbers. Im starting to dislike the $88 mask!!!

Overall though my idle numbers are great, timing is advanced more, smoothed out .55 and no knock, the Main BLM is great along with the Int.

Any off the wall ideas about the low BLM in deacceleration, i think im just gonna try to let that go and not drive me nuts for now!:yikes:

[dave w]

Ok I added 4# of spark in total today, the only time i got any reading of spark knock is when i shut the car off?? Is that ok? Im going to leave the SA Main table at that if so.

My idle is great(BLM 130.5 average from 0-3mph, and i had about 1500 cells to look at) I think the BLM of 130 average is good since it was alot colder today then the last time i datalogged, since i used those numbers to mod the tables. (35 and sunny today compared to 50 and sunny the other day) Ill hope that if it was 50 out those BLM's would have been lower. Also the BLM was steady!! Very steady! Int's were no more then 8 numbers difference. but mostly with in a few digits.

The thing that is driving me nuts is:mad1: That no matter how much fuel I pull out when i cost, deaccelerate, the values stay low 110~112. Ive taken out 20% of fuel at one point and those numbers never changed. Truthfully im lost at why i cant budge those numbers. Im starting to dislike the $88 mask!!!

Overall though my idle numbers are great, timing is advanced more, smoothed out .55 and no knock, the Main BLM is great along with the Int.

Any off the wall ideas about the low BLM in deacceleration, i think im just gonna try to let that go and not drive me nuts for now!:yikes:

I think I might retard only the 400 RPM timing cells about 1 ~ 2 ~3 maybe 4 degrees to see if the knock at shut off goes away? I'm wondering if the knock at shut off is really more like a gas engine trying to "Diesel" when your shutting off the engine? With fuel injection it's not very likely there is gas pooled in the intake to keep the engine dieseling for any length of time. Carburetor engine will diesel for several seconds, even longer when the timing is advanced to much.

I think it's OK to stop working on the deceleration for now. Maybe in a near the future you can revisit the DFCO?

dave w

[fasteddi]

I think I might retard only the 400 RPM timing cells about 1 ~ 2 ~3 maybe 4 degrees to see if the knock at shut off goes away? I'm wondering if the knock at shut off is really more like a gas engine trying to "Diesel" when your shutting off the engine? With fuel injection it's not very likely there is gas pooled in the intake to keep the engine dieseling for any length of time. Carburetor engine will diesel for several seconds, even longer when the timing is advanced to much.

I think it's OK to stop working on the deceleration for now. Maybe in a near the future you can revisit the DFCO?

dave w

Ok ill go ahead and retard the low RPM a little, 2# at first, and see if that stops the Knock at shut off.

Yea i think im done with the DFCO for a bit! Before i start to mess up the tables....

[EagleMark]

I found a few things missing from your adx so I did a little more work on it. You will now know when you are in idle! Or Off Idle!

The reason your DFCO cells are rich is because you never enter DFCO? Found it in the ALDL so I put it in adx... Until someone that knows how to enter these values in xdf I don't know how you would fix that, or how it got turned off?

You also never got any knock on 7thchip.xdl... cause now you have a knock history table... :rockon:

EDIT: Also put Code numbers on the words so you know what's what...

[fasteddi]

Thanks for the revised adx table. I did take out 4* timing in the 400 rpm area, the knock is gone, but i did also re-activate the EGR and the CCP. I was told to disable them for editing VE tables After the changes the BLM's are leaner? Exspecially when at crusing speeds?

I just played back my latest log, i did have .3 -1.05 knock retard in the 100kpa cell from 2k to 4.5 k rpms. Thanks to your adx file! I love that file alot better!!!! Should i just take out 1* in ever cell except take 2* in the ones that were higher then 1* retard? That was a quck WOT to see if it did knock..

[1leg]

Just finished reading this thread, :scare:, My wife has been a drag racer widow, Camping widow and a fishing widow. I wonder how she will feel becoming EFI widow.

I learned a lot just reading this thread. thanks for all the effort you guys did to help Fasteddi