Anyone worked with the 16196397 yet? [Archive]

Xnke

06-26-2015, 08:27 PM

Basically, the M62 is roughly equal to a T3-60 trim turbocharger. The M90 is roughly equal to a T04B S-trim turbocharger-but limited to about 12lbs of boost in both cases. Horses for courses. I don't need super-high HP in a truck, but I do like bulk low-RPM torque.

The truck only needs to turn 5000RPM, ever. It's not a race car, but I do use it to haul engine parts/drag cars/general abuse so low-end torque is nice to have. I may use an M90 just because I have 6 on the shelf, but I only have one M62 and it's the long-case version that won't package well. Also, it's got a T-5 transmission in it, and they're only good for about 300ft-lbs before they shatter.

The reason the 3800SC guys are running then out of their efficiency is that they're getting power greedy. The eatons on those engines aren't designed to run at 6000 engine RPM, they were designed to give bulk torque and the sensation of speed and power at 3000RPM, which is where they're still efficient. Significant case reconfiguration is needed to get serious performance out of the GM blowers. The Ford, Jaguar, and Mercedes blowers are a lot better in this regard.

By changing the shape of the case, I was able to go from 600CFM inlet flow, to just over 800CFM, before hitting the limit of the compressor on this M90. Raised inlet 2.4", opened from 65mm to 88mm.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG0885_zpsbed88fb0.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG0886_zps5aa2fff3.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG0895_zps59f55485.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG0907_zps25a4d4af.jpg

Also made it fit much better in the engine bay. Shortened the nose up to M62-length too, to fit the accessory drive.

That said, if I knew I had the usage of the 2-bar MAP sensor, I'd just chuck a small turbo on it and call it a day. Might hunt down some Syclone badges or something, that'd be pretty awesome.

RobertISaar

06-26-2015, 10:38 PM

that's certainly different. :happy:

I've patched in 2/3 BAR support for a different mask/PCM, but I just haven't done it yet for the P66 V6 PCM. I think you're only the 3rd or 4th person to ask about it, so it hasn't been a huge priority, but maybe after this weekend, I can see if I can set aside some time to get on it.

Xnke

06-27-2015, 12:52 AM

it's been so long since I dabbled in assembly and hex for the 'HC11 I am not sure I could get it back now. Thanks for taking a look at it-I will be ready to fit the engine into the bay in about a month. If boosted support is available by then then I'll just make the headers into a set of turbo headers, it's way easier to do that now than later.

Xnke

06-28-2015, 07:34 AM

Definitely gonna go with the M90 blower now. I got to borrow a Frontier M62 and it's just too long to get it on the plenum cover; so I'll be taking the bandsaw to an M90 case soon.

Xnke

07-10-2015, 07:01 AM

Any news on 2bar support for this PCM? I have gotten the super chopped down and ready to fit to the intake.

RobertISaar

07-12-2015, 08:42 PM

messing around with it now. the oddball 16-bit VE table actually has an advantage here to where I can basically just tack on another table into the positive manifold pressure range without needing to write an airflow multiplier table.

RobertISaar

07-13-2015, 04:36 AM

good progress done sporadically throughout the day. noticed that I'm going to end up changing the main spark table as well.... luckily, it is already 17x17 and the MAP scaling is already sufficient(20-100 in 5kPa increments), but spark is 400-4800, 200 RPM increments from 400-2400 and 400 RPM increments above that. I'm going to add in a patch that changes the RPM scaling from 0-6400 in the same space, i'll just have the tables listed next to each other in the XDF with some notes in both to indicate which one should be used. currently making a spreadsheet to allow easily changing from the existing table to the new table scaling(just copy/paste instead of interpolating and extrapolating from existing values).

as-is, I have the code setup for the boost VE and spark tables ready to go from 100-300kPa in 12.5kPa increments, though I'm considering allowing it to go 100-200 in 6.25kPa increments for anyone who wants to use either a 2 or 3 BAR sensor, but doesn't plan on exceeding 200kPa.

also considering changing the existing Main VE table as well.... RPM scaling is fine here(0-6400 in 400RPM incs), but MAP is 15-50kPa in 5kPa increments, then 50-100 in 10kPa increments.... table would have to be relocated though, i'll need to see what kind of space I have to work with after the other stuff is finished.

Xnke

07-13-2015, 09:36 PM

That's awesome. Honestly, 10kpA increments from 50-100 is fine. I use similar scales a lot in the Megasquirt world-unless you're running a cam that really doesn't make much vacuum then all your fine tuning is usually under 65kpA or so. Above that, 10 or even 15kpa per increment is perfectly usable, as long as the tables are being interpolated.

I sat down and took a look at re-learning what I'd need to know the other day-would have been january before I felt ready to tackle something like this!

The spark table sounds...odd. But, there really isn't much need to add or remove timing advance past 3000ish RPM in most engines, so I can see why it was done that way.

Whatever you come up with-I am 100% certain it will be perfectly usable. Making this PCM boost-capable opens up a huge window for the Camaro/Firebird folks who want to turbo their car, but don't want to do a complete OBD1 wiring swap. (also Beretta, as the manual trans PCM I have is from a 3100 powered beretta!)

RobertISaar

07-13-2015, 11:27 PM

with nAst1, I have the fuel and spark tables run up to 8400 RPM.... currently in 200RPM increments from 2000-up(and 100 RPM from 400-2000), but I've had a few comments on it being excessive to the point of people not wanting to deal with that many cells, even if it has the potential for a better calibration. so, the future for it holds the same 400-2000 table, but going to 400RPM increments up to 8400.

I've never seen/heard of a VE or main spark table that wasn't interpolated.... that would be an extremely odd choice by the code engineer to do so. very few tables in GM code aren't interpolated and those that are tend to make sense or are at least non-critical.

in the stock calibration, spark still changes an appreciable amount even right up to the 4800 limit, and some use a RPM-derived sliding offset above that even, so I just want to put it all in one table. if you have significant fueling/spark changes above 6400.... well, code can always be revised.

I apparently need to get together with someone who is capable of fabricating turbo manifolds/SC intakes and drive systems but doesn't want to deal with the electrical side of things.... I can make an adapter harness in my sleep(or change the harness for a more permanent solution), but metal fab is outside my range of comfort unless a CNC mill is involved.

as for code progress, it's nearly finished. the E-side is completely taken care of, which has the bulk of the work necessary, now I just need to finish up a little bit on the T-side since I have to pass MAP information(both an emulated 1BAR signal for T-side usage and the raw 2/3BAR signal for the end-user) over SPI since there isn't enough space on the T-side for more emulation code. speaking of space, after all has been added on the E-side, I have two sections of free space, one is about 900 continuous bytes, the other is about 2800 continuous bytes.... a 17x17 VE table would take up 578(and free up its previous 442 byte area), so I have plenty of room to do that.

the only quirk I'm coming up with so far is that the barometric update function may require disabling/severe limiting(since baro updates happen with high throttle/low vacuum, when the blower does its magic).

I should have something posted tonight, I know someone on 60V6 was also looking for it, so it will end up there as well. MAF support was also requested, though I may wait to make sure this is working out for everybody first before adding in a separate patch for that.

RobertISaar

07-14-2015, 03:56 AM

as near as I can tell, 5 bytes can be passed over SPI from E to T(where the main communications from PCM to laptop occur, though E can be communicated with using a wildly different ADX) without having to remove anything or otherwise cripple some function for any of the applications this PCM is used on. 4 of the bytes are continuous(currently used to transfer the E-side calibration part number to the T-side), 1 is on its own. I'm going to use one of the 2-byte blocks for this patch, leaving a 16-bit value and an 8-bit value able to be transferred in the future. the 16-bit value will likely be used for the MAF patch, while I have no plans for the 8-bit value.

finally on the home stretch of this patch, i'll run it through the disassembler to make sure nothing funny pops up and i'll call it a beta release. as such, I wouldn't recommend using it in a vehicle that has to make it to X location at Y time until any other quirks that might exist are discovered and fixed.

RobertISaar

07-14-2015, 11:13 AM

what kind of plans do you have for a boost control/bypass valve or something of the sort? I'm trying to work out a way to allow baro updates, but there is no way I can fathom that would work without the PCM having direct control of the boost control solenoid and whenever the throttle is open enough for the bypass valve to close on its own, temporarily(or by default) keep/force the bypass valve open to get a baro read, then close it to allow boost to boost to build, rather than get sent back through to in front of the rotors. no idea how quickly the valves react though...

well, I can fathom another method, but it would require cracking open the PCM and reconfiguring the T-side channel 3 A/D circuit so that it could read a permanent, atmosphere exposed 1BAR MAP sensor. it isn't as fun as it sounds. or instead of reconfiguring channel 3, use channels 2 or 5, since as far as I can tell, they're unused. not much space in the T-side PROM though, so one would need to plan very far ahead to not write themselves into a wall.

in any case, here is what I've come up with. a small readme is included, which more or less reiterates the some stuff I've mentioned along the way, as well as some new info.

I highly recommend the rev3 v1.01 patch as well... it's mostly bugfixes to factory code, but it also adds a more defined method of controlling the highway fuel/lean cruise function, should it be desired.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5jfa0iqz6sfs46q/P66%20V6%20Boost.zip?dl=0

after I pull this out of beta, it can end up in the thread for this PCM.

Xnke

07-14-2015, 07:53 PM

Does the code have to do baro updates *while driving*? Just have it do the baro lookup on ECM-on, engine-off on startup, that seems to be effective enough for a LOT of other control computers-Megasquirt and Motec included.

I had initially planned on a full-pneumatic method for the boost bypass valve, that's what I use on the datto. It is "OK", but not great for street driving. It results in a non-intuitive engine response, which is...interesting. Roll on the throttle a normal amount and it makes 120-130kpa from 1500 to 3000RPM, but then once you're rolling a steady 3000RPM it vents the boost with a Whoosh-hiss, and you're driving on the very loud bypass. This gets irritating at highway cruise. (it's loud because the intake mods I did effectively remove all the sound baffling from the supercharger.) Toe in it slightly, it kicks the bypass valve closed and you're on boost, 155kpa at the current drive ratio. The blower is ported to be turned a LOT faster-target is 200kpa while keeping IAT's under 120F. It's balanced at a bad spot, as under cruise conditions the pneumatics tend to throw boost at you while holding a constant throttle position as the loading of the engine changes due to hills or even headwind/tailwind. I'll add an output the the MS2-Extra controlling that car at some point to drive the valve.

I am now considering using one of the EGR solenoid outputs, as it isn't looking like EGR is going to be a priority to keep-I wanted to keep it for the highway mileage advantage but it's easy enough to dispense with and just run a slightly different cam profile to obtain low-throttle EGR. IIRC the L67 uses a simple on-off method of boost control, so the EGR solenoid should have no problem with the L67-style boost control valve. This is the "preferred" method, as I can "lock out" the supercharger under highway cruise.

As far as the belt drive, that I won't be able to make progress on until I get the block back from the machine shop and get the heads dummied up with the complete camaro accessory drive in place. It is looking like I will have plenty of room to add a pair of idlers on a "pulley bridge" similar the the supercharged 4.6L ford engines. I'll have to do some finangling with the water neck, but since I am going to run the mechanical fan I was gonna have to do that anyway.

For the fabrication...I use a 4.5" angle grinder for a LOT of the fine detail work, it's amazing how good of a job can be done with one. I am likely gonna skin the top of the 3500 intake today, and look at what it will take to cram an intercooler down inside it.

RobertISaar

07-15-2015, 04:02 AM

baro updates while running isn't too critical unless you're doing a pikes peak run since the O2 sensor should take care of fueling differences when not leaning too heavily into the throttle, which would also stay in-effect when PE kicks in. otherwise, need to shut the engine off to do a baro update should one be going up and down mountains. I would just bump the max RPM to allow baro updates low enough to where it can't possibly occur during boost. with a roots blower, that seems like it could be fairly low.

on this PCM, the EGR circuits are fully capable of PWM control at frequencies of 8, 16, 32, 64 or 128Hz(if I'm remembering correctly), though they're only ever used as digital outputs in a factory calibration. I have to open up a PCM of this style(on mine, the torx-head fasteners are corroded in place) and see if the E-side has an open A/D channel that is already connected to the PCM connector, otherwise i'll have to make it so and then the use of the 96+ linear EGR(or even the older EVRV setup) will be possible. that would open up 2 PWM capable outputs while retaining EGR.

I'm not sure how easy it would be, but I assume the boost solenoid could be played with via a PWM signal that would essentially allow setting a desired boost level. I get the feeling that a very narrow range of duty cycles would be usable though, considering how large the bypass valve is. wouldn't take too much valve angle to completely bleed off pressure under the blower.

Xnke

07-15-2015, 07:46 AM

The PWM of the boost valve doesn't work so well due to it being pneumatically controlled, also since it's a butterfly valve.

Simple on-off control is pretty OK, that's how the L67's did it. I have two ECU's here, I'll pop one open and have a poke around.

Xnke

07-17-2015, 07:49 AM

Did a bit of work on the intake tonight-can't really go a LOT further til the block is back in my hands, though.

Started choppin'

(yep, sawhorses and a board!)

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0173_zps96acdbcc.jpg

The three columns in the middle of the plenum meant I had to use a BFH to break up the top of the casting once it was cut, then start chopping the inside of the plenum clean.

Leftovers...

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0174_zps92297439.jpg

Dug through the stock shelf and found some aluminum flat, it'll work. Manifold was NASTY inside, coated in tar.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0175_zps7ed3786a.jpg

Going to run that through the dishwasher a few dozen times, a trip across the belt sander to clean up the front and I'll weld in a bit to close up that hole, and then the new 10mm thick top plate will get welded in place. Will look something like this all done:

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0178_zps59272491.jpg

You can see here that I'll have to scallop the top plate to allow the upper intake to bolt to the lower-the M90 blower is almost exactly the same width as the upper intake manifold. I am contemplating just chopping it down to where the bolts currently seat, and welding it on flush. Would be much easier to weld into place, and would solve some other issues, but I would have to buy a longer piece of plate. So that's not gonna happen.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0179_zps999bcf4a.jpg

In other areas, there are some things that are tantalizingly close to correct-the nose drive length and the pulley size, namely. Roughly measuring using bits of the accessory drive show the pulley was within 3mm of being correct just stacking things on the table-I have plenty of room to move it that much-and the drive ratio should give me about 6-8lbs of boost without changing anything.

RobertISaar

07-17-2015, 08:05 AM

I can't think of too many supercharged 60V6.... let alone one with the blower on top of the UIM. the McGavin Z26 comes to mind though.

http://www.angelfire.com/super/ghettoretta/m90/mcgavin_3400sc_2.jpg

he went a bit nuts in how much of the hood he removed, but I imagine you'll still have to make a noticeable hole yourself?

Xnke

07-17-2015, 10:41 PM

Nope. If anything, a cheap 2" cowl hood will do the job.

It's in a gen1 S10 pickup truck, originally was a TBI with the round air cleaner. I'm only an inch taller than the stock aircleaner with the blower in place, although the original air cleaner does show a rub mark on the hood insulator. In the photo below, you notice the coil packs on the firewall, that's about the amount of vertical clearance I'd have at the back of the hood. It does slope down in the front, but not too much-It is entirely possible that I will get the blower low enough to only need to trim the hood braces.

Six-Shooter will recognize his truck!

http://www.domesticcrew.com/raven/James/Engine%20swap/New%20FPG%20loc.jpg

Xnke

07-22-2015, 05:24 AM

Headed back out to the garage to have a look at this again tonight-Dealt with a 91 cavalier TH125C trans all week and it was a real killer. Engine block will be back end of the week/early next week and I will get the heads dummied up on the block again so I can set the belt drive up. Might just bolt the heads to the intake manifold and the accessory drive to the heads-that will be close enough. I am still working out the two new idler pulleys that will be needed, I'd like to be able to make this a bolt-on application for anything using the 3500 lower and the aluminum heads.

Exhaust header parts are on the way, 44.6" long tubes mean I need to really scramble to get the driver's side header wrapped under the oil pan and into the merge! I could compromise on a "shorty" design, won't loose much with the blower anyway.

Engine in the S10 started with a loud tappy-tappy today, signaling the death of wrist pin or possibly two lifters-it is a pronounced double tap and it doesn't appear to be a rod bearing, yet. At 200K miles, combined with a life as a commercial service truck, it has been seriously beaten for most of its life by unsupervised 16-18 year old boys. Still pushes my mechanical test oil pressure gauge to 70PSI at 2000RPM, though.

RobertISaar

07-22-2015, 06:49 AM

I'd like to be able to make this a bolt-on application for anything using the 3500 lower and the aluminum heads.

undivided attention: you have it.

is there anything specific about the 3500 LIM and your design that would prevent the large port 3100/3400 lower from working?

Xnke

07-22-2015, 07:48 PM

So far, no. The 3500 lower is unmodified. As long as the 3500 upper intake will bolt down, the modified upper should fit. I have no idea how I'll do the two new idlers yet though-they have to handle 180-210lbs of force plus the drive horsepower without slacking off.

RobertISaar

07-22-2015, 08:03 PM

the 3500 upper will attach to the large-port 3100/3400 lower, so that keeps any 60V6 running a gen3 large-port LIM/UIM open.

if it were 3500 LIM specific, then that would cut out some applications.... the 3500 LIM can only attach to the 3500 heads, which can only be used on 3.4 and 3.5 engines due to bore size/overlap issues on 2.8/3.1 engines. but you probably already knew all of this.

Xnke

07-23-2015, 09:37 AM

Looks like the Camaro accessory drive won't need any idlers-I can get about 170* of belt wrap on the supercharger just by running a longer belt. I haven't looked at the FWD setup, I don't have a FWD car to crib from. Hopefully this week I'll get some other things knocked out and get back on the truck engine.

Xnke

07-24-2015, 05:47 AM

Looks like I have an intercooler solution. Will raise the blower up 30mm, but that is workable-Intercooled is always better.

Xnke

07-24-2015, 11:36 PM

on this PCM, the EGR circuits are fully capable of PWM control at frequencies of 8, 16, 32, 64 or 128Hz(if I'm remembering correctly), though they're only ever used as digital outputs in a factory calibration. I have to open up a PCM of this style(on mine, the torx-head fasteners are corroded in place) and see if the E-side has an open A/D channel that is already connected to the PCM connector, otherwise i'll have to make it so and then the use of the 96+ linear EGR(or even the older EVRV setup) will be possible. that would open up 2 PWM capable outputs while retaining EGR.

I have a 4737 Automatic ECU cracked open right now-Where do you need to look? I have done this kind of thing before, but only when I had labeling...I would want to know what ECU pins to look at (I have diagrams but don't know if black/blue/white is A, C, B, ect.)

Also it appears that the flash chips are both a 28F256 in mine, but there are two MCU's and two flash chips, one on each board.

RobertISaar

07-25-2015, 02:09 AM

A is white/clear
B is black
C is blue

two PROMs/processors is exactly what I would expect, otherwise it wouldn't be a P66 V6.

I need to find the damaged/disassembled one I have here to confirm, but the side with the knock filter on it should have the blue connector, which should be the E-side, the white/black connector board should be the T-side.

the T-side should only have the A/D ports built into the microcontroller(8 of them), but the E-side has the micro's 8 and an additional 8 through an auxiliary A/D converter. from what I've determined in the code, the E-side micro A/D channel 4 is open, as is the aux chip's channels 2 and 7. whether they're broken out onto the board or are just dead-end circuits, I don't know. I can't find my hardware disassembly notes that had the part number and pinouts of the aux a/d chip, that would certainly have been helpful about now.

Xnke

07-25-2015, 02:38 AM

Xnke

07-25-2015, 02:51 AM

PE4/AN4 on pin 60 is grounded, would have to lift the pin on the MCU to get it into some circuitry. Can be done, though. Turns out that this is an analog input, though-I started looking for the wrong thing I think.

RobertISaar

07-25-2015, 04:25 AM

OK, so on the E-side controller, the MC68HC11F1 (E87J) in a PLCC68 package is what I'm looking at-initially it appears that Port E0 and Port E4 don't have anything connected to the pins on the board. Pin 59 is PE0/AN0 (A/D channel 0) and pin 60 is PE4/AN4 (A/D channel 4). I'm probing through with a meter looking for any connection to the pins now.

I am still hunting the A/D chip pinouts.

On a curious note, what would it take to get this ECU to log a wideband O2 input? I see where it has been done on some of the other PCMs, but while I have this one out of the metal shell, I thought I'd poke around and see if there's room.

PE4/AN4 on pin 60 is grounded, would have to lift the pin on the MCU to get it into some circuitry. Can be done, though. Turns out that this is an analog input, though-I started looking for the wrong thing I think.

i have channel 0 listed as "knock filter(output?)" something goes on with that channel in the code, but I don't know what. maybe i'll take another look.

getting this PCM to log a wideband is just the same as another MAP sensor... just need a free a/d channel on the E-side(there MIGHT be enough space on the T-side to pull off an A/D read/store and jump back to normal code, but it would be close) and a little bit of space, maybe 20 bytes or so. as long as the channel doesn't have a pull-up resistor the way that the temperature channels do, then they should have just a low-pass filter between the PCM connector pin and either the micro's pin or the mux chip's pin. could also do something out of the ordinary and setup the calibration to only use one O2 sensor(like a FWD application does) and run a wideband signal through a voltage divider and feed it into the "spare" O2 sensor a/d channel. someone on this forum did that with my recommendation and they had good results, I just can't remember any details of the project.

lifting pins wouldn't be too bad, be better if one of the other circuits were already connected to the PCM connector.

seeing how it may help, here's what I have for the a/d channels:

e-side: channel 6 appears to be a mux channel
0: knock filter(output?)
1: right/rear O2
2: left/front O2
3: TPS
4:
5: MAT
6: MUX
7: MAP

6.00: A/C pressure sensor
6.20: fuel pump volts
6.40:
6.60: ???? (transferred to T-side as T-buffer 7, LSB, only used for DTC86 testing, value above d25 sets code)
6.80: A/C evaporator temp sensor
6.A0: ???? (transferred to T-side as T-buffer 12, LSB, only used for DTC43 testing), knock sensor input?
6.C0: coolant temp
6.E0:
*6.60 may be connected to quad driver fault line?

t-side:
0: ???? (read but not used except for factory test?)
1: TPS
2:
3: MAP
4: Trans Fluid
5:
6: Battery Volts
7: PCS Sense

Xnke

07-25-2015, 08:36 AM

Still can't figure this one out. Pin 60, A/D channel 4, goes into one of the inner layers of the board-it appears to be a four-layer board. It probably isn't actually grounded. I have located a pad on the lower side of the board that shows continuity, but it also shows continuity to pin 59, A/D channel 0. Channel 0, the one you have as a possible knock filter output, is an input-only pin, according to the MC68HC11F1 documentation. Must be the output of the knock filter going in to the MCU.

RobertISaar

07-25-2015, 09:29 AM

more stuff I need to investigate further, I'm guessing at channel 0 based only on what the code does with it. with 6.A0 also appearing as knock sensor related, I really don't know what to think.

Xnke

07-26-2015, 02:03 AM

Picked up some PCM wiring harness connectors today at the parts yard, plus the forward lamp harness connector for a Camaro so I can not hack up the F-body harness as much. Also grabbed a MAP sensor from a supercharged Buick, as well as four more M90 blowers...I have enough blowers now for a while. All of them just need the coupler replaced in the snout, fresh oil, and they're good as new.

Also, my Northstar throttle showed up, complete with busted IAC...hoping the SFI IAC will fit down in its place. I don't want to buy another one if I don't have to.

Xnke

07-26-2015, 08:46 AM

Waiting on an intercooler core, 120mmx120mmx42mm, two-pass unit.

Tonight was spent reworking the supercharger case. Trimmed off the original throttle body flange, started opening up one side of the case.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0193_zps7d8f9531.jpg

Here's the case trimmed, marked out and starting to open it up:

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0194_zps63a475cc.jpg

Started mocking it up with a section of 3" tubing, getting a feel for how things are going to work out. Will need a bit of welding to get things radiused correctly.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0195_zps9892678c.jpg

Another look:

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0196_zps4cf3c669.jpg

Positioned on top of the upper manifold, trying to get an idea of how the throttle body will set. It's a 75mm unit from a Northstar V8.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0197_zpsd9486e59.jpg

A couple more hours has this fitted and fixed.

Xnke

07-31-2015, 08:54 AM

Did some more hunting around tonight in the ECM-There is no pin currently connected to the exterior of the ECM that is tied to Pin 60/AN4 of the E-side 'HC11. A LOT of pins have 5.6K or 9K resistance to that pin, though, which reaffirms my suspicion that it's grounded-as all unused analog input pins should be for good practice.

I don't have any method of currently flashing the PCM right now, haven't bought Winflash because to be honest, I don't really trust the TunerCATS website, and I don't have 50$ to drop on the Madtuner software right now. As soon as I do, I'll lift the AN4 pin on the auto ECM and see if I can twiddle the line, is there any indicator in Tunerpro that would tell me if I have the right pin?

RobertISaar

07-31-2015, 01:59 PM

not currently read/stored anywhere in the code, but it isn't like it would take much to patch it in.

RobertISaar

08-09-2015, 02:47 PM

nearly have this 93 PCM mapped out to my satisfaction... I've got a text document with my findings in it and more than a few photographs along the way, suffice to say that the e-side still has a few tricks left in its sleeve.

1project2many

08-09-2015, 04:38 PM

BARO update on boosted engine is a challenge with one sensor. Dedicated BARO on one channel is a waste of data. Update could be accomplished during conditions which enable DFCO. Single sensor solution could involve electric vacuum switching valve on MAP line. When DFCO becomes active, engage valve and open MAP to atmo to take quick BARO reading. Interrupt BARO reading routine if TPS increases. Similar could be done using Baro sensor that shares MAP signal line. Electrically switch sensors during DFCO while monitoring TPS for change in case it's not appropriate to disconnect MAP.

RobertISaar

08-10-2015, 12:56 AM

hmm..... i'll have to see what kind of outputs are still available to accomplish a little mini-muxing of the MAP circuit. as-is, there are a few open A/D channels on the E-side, i'll need to do a final pass on everything tonight.... figuring this stuff out at 4AM, I skipped a few things along the way.

1project2many

08-10-2015, 01:21 AM

figuring this stuff out at 4AM, I skipped a few things along the way

It's really cool that you're putting the time into this. I hope the V660 crowd picks it up and runs with it. FWIW none of the GM turbo code bases did BARO updates properly. IIRC $58 will arbitrarily assign a BARO value at key on if a number of conditions aren't met.

RobertISaar

08-10-2015, 02:48 AM

I would have thought GM would have done something like that for the Pikes Peak TGP considering the huge change in elevation, but I'm told it ran a rather stock-ish calibration.

RobertISaar

08-10-2015, 07:12 AM

^ I recognize that situation.... I think the wrong button got pressed. :laugh:

anyways, i'll post this stuff as I reconfirm it, turns out I got sloppy last night while probing around with the meter. I need to pull pics off of the camera and label the chips as I have them written down, but I do have some solid info on some important stuff.

E-side:

U:
1 16126532
2 56597
3 16127475 C94R 68HC11F1
4 37414
5 27474
6 M32AB 89551
7 16155187 AN28F256A flash PROM
8 P31AB 30965
9 P31AB 30965
10 M32AB 89551
11 P31AD 57245 logic gate(AND)
12 P31AB 47816
13 129170 CP03597

IRF9395 INJECTOR DRIVERS
8.388MHZ CRYSTAL
MISSING: U14 AND 2 LARGE TRANSISTORS
missing transistor closest to knock filter controls pin C5, other controls C6, these are PCS high and PCS low.

6811 A/D:
0 - battery volts
1 - right/rear O2
2 - left/front O2
3 - TPS
4 - pin A28(1K pulldown, 10K isolation)
5 - IAT
6 - a/d mux chip's output
7 - MAP

OC1 and OC4 are broken out, but function unknown
E-side mux chip is located on T-board

mux'd A/D:
0 - a/c pressure
1 - fuel pump monitor
2 - 10K isolator, 909 ohm pullup? (pin A7)
3 - 10K+? RC filter + 511K pulldown (pin A4)
4 - a/c temp sensor
5 - 200K to 2nd pin on knock filter(connected to sensor through 100 ohm resistor)
6 - coolant temp
7 - 20K to pin 1 of E-side PROM program circuit

T-side:

U:
15 64606 ALDL comms chip
16 034987 O2 amplifier
17 034987 O2 amplifier
18 16132083
19 16084368
20 16084523
21 P29AB 45153 8 channel mux for E-side A/D
22 P39AB 61285
23 P31AD 57245 logic gate(AND)
24 56597
25 16155187 AN28F256A flash PROM
26 16127475 C94R 68HC11F1
27 45980 63634 quad driver
28 45980 63634 quad driver
29 16180566 fuel pump relay driver
30 34992 power supply
31 M32AD 41398 connected to e-side via ribbon, inside row, pin 11
32 45980 63634 quad driver
33 34993 IAC driver
34 45980 63634 quad driver

MISSING U35 AND U36

A/D:
0 - coolant temp
1 - TPS
2 - 3rd pin of knock filter
3 - MAP
4 - trans temp
5 - pin A28(1K pulldown, 10K isolation)
6 - battery volts
7 - PCS sense

1project2many

08-10-2015, 01:59 PM

^ I recognize that situation.... I think the wrong button got pressed.

Ahh... Yep. :laugh:

I've seen a few GM "race" cals and they weren't all that exciting. Codes shut off, CL disabled, emissions disabled, and sometimes more timing to go with race fuel. I've actually got a rocketparts Q4 cal here along with one from the Snakeskinner LT5. On both cals you can compare scan ID and data bytes to determine the stock cal they were made from.

RobertISaar

08-10-2015, 02:23 PM

time for a big post.... this is the last of the hardware data I can generate before sending this off into the postal system once again. i'll have to finish everything up once I have a proper one in my hands. oddly enough, this 93 unit isn't missing much from the 94-95 from what I can tell... I really don't know what that version would have changed/added for the FWD cars or the manual f-bodies. I'm almost certain I could flash a 94-95 program into it and have it function normally in a non-4L60E application.

looks like mux'ing in more a/d channels might be pretty easily done. the e-side channel 4 appears to be unused in the code, though oddly also connected to the T-side as channel 5... could just add in a 4051(since that is what the delco-numbered mux appears to be) and instead of having 1 or 2 usable channels that may require reconfiguring the pullup/down resistors to use anyways, you'll end up with 8 that can be wired any way you see fit. something as nuts as an additional 4 MAP sensors and 3 temp sensors to continuously monitor can calculate:

barometric pressure and ambient temp
MAP sensor between air filter and inlet of turbo/supercharger to measure filter restriction
MAP sensor and temp sensor after outlet of super/turbo
temp sensor and MAP installed post-intercooler

then your existing MAP/temp sensor installed in the intake(though most applications don't have the IAT installed as a MAT, it's an example).

with all of those sensors, you could continuously monitor and calculate compressor and cooler efficiency, which is...... excessive to the point of obsessive. but that is the goal though, right?

two of the previously unidentified chips appear to be 28-pin surface-mounted quad/output drivers? I've never seen this before to my knowledge. the 16132083 controls fan1, fan2, the p/n output(used on some cars for chime/autolocking since their shifter position switch didn't have that provision, which is weird), and an unused output on pin B17. the 16084368 chip controls the check gauges lamp(l/n cars only, I think), the SES, cruise-inhibit signal and an unused output on B9. those account for the outputs that aren't attached to the normal ZIP-15 packaged quad drivers, so I now believe have all of the existing I/O circuits identified. on the T-side, I have all but 2 ICs identified, 1 of which I'm certain is a logic gate, the other is attached to it and not much else obvious.

stuff I need to change in the post above:

the 56597(both of them) appears to be the equivalent of the P4 timer chip, so I'm going to refer to it as the P6 timer chip.
U13 (129170 CP03597) is more or less a dedicated injector controller.... the pinout is somewhat like the late 80s/early 90s 3800SFI injector controller chip.
U18 and U19 are the quad/output drivers I mentioned earlier.
31 M32AD 41398 connected to pin 15 on 27474(E-side)

and for new stuff:

quad drivers:
U27
1 - pin 51 of U24(T-side 56597)
A16 (3-2 DOWNSHIFT SOLENOID)
2 - pin 51 of U24(T-side 56597)
A16 (3-2 DOWNSHIFT SOLENOID)
3 - pin 3 of U23(T-side AND gate)
A15 (TCC)
4 - pin 27 of U24(T-side 56597)
A14 (LOW OIL LAMP)
U28
1 - pin 52 of U24(T-side 56597)
A13 (TCC PWM)
2 - pin 52 of U24(T-side 56597)
A13 (TCC PWM)
3 - pin 12 of U24(T-side 56597)
A12 (SHIFT SOLENOID B)
4 - pin 13 of U24(T-side 56597)
A11 (SHIFT SOLENOID A)
U32
1 - pin 3 of U1(E-side 16126532)
B13 (EGR 3)
2 - pin 3 of U1(E-side 16126532)
B13 (EGR 3)
3 - pin 4 of U1(E-side 16126532)
B12 (EGR 2)
4 - pin 5 of U1(E-side 16126532)
B11 (EGR 1)
U34
1 - pin 20 of U2(E-side 56597)
B6 (A/C CLUTCH)
2 - pin 50 of U2(E-side 56597)
B5 (UNUSED)
3 - pin 49 of U2(E-side 56597)
B4 (CCP)
4 - pin 51 of U2(E-side 56597)
B3 (AIR PUMP)

u18: output driver?
1 middle 26
2 b2(fan1)
3 ?
4 b1(fan2)
5 g
6 g
7 g
8 g
9 g
10 g
11 g
12 b18(p/n output)
13 ?
14 b17(unused)
15 ?
16 pin 49 U24(T-side 56597)
17 middle 23
18 pin 43 U24(T-side 56597)
19 g
20 g
21 g
22 g
23 g
24 g
25 g
26 + power
27 middle 24
28 middle 25

u19: output driver?
1 ?
2 b8(check guages light)
3 ?
4 b7(ses)
5 g
6 g
7 g
8 g
9 g
10 g
11 g
12 b9(unused)
13 ?
14 b10(cruise inhibit)
15 ?
16 pin 11 U24(T-side 56597)
17 pin 26 U24(T-side 56597)
18 pin 43 U24(T-side 56597)
19 g
20 g
21 g
22 g
23 g
24 g
25 g
26 + power
27 inside 21
28 pin 25 U24 (T-side 56597)

BACK TO E-SIDE:

address/data bus:
6811 37414 56597 16126532
A0 58 20 44 20
A1 57 22 45 22
A2 56 23 46 23
A3 55 24 47 24
A4 54 25 - 25
A5 53 26 - 26
A6 52 27 - 27
A7 51 28 - 28
A8 50 29 - 29
A9 49 31 - 30
A10 48 30 - *
A11 47 32 - 32
A12 46 33 - 33
A13 45 34 - 34
A14 44 35 - 35
A15 43 36 - 36
D0 9 18 42 18
D1 10 17 41 17
D2 11 16 40 16
D3 12 15 39 15
D4 13 14 38 14
D5 14 13 37 13
D6 15 12 36 12
D7 16 11 35 11

* = CONNECTED TO U12 PIN 13. U12 PIN 12 IS CONNECTED WHERE EXPECTED. 56597-15 IS RELATED AS WELL

CSIO2 connected to 37414-42
CSIO1 connected to 37414-43
CSGEN connected to 56597-48
CSPRG connected to PROM-22

I need to figure out how to format all of this to make it less ridiculous to try and read. maybe i'll just upload the .txt if I can't figure it out in a normal post.

Xnke

08-10-2015, 07:54 PM

This is an awesome amount of data. I am going to try to trace through my 6397 here and find the A/D outputs that you have listed, see if I can lift the pullup/pulldown resistors and reconfigure it as a "normalized" 0-5V standard analog input for WBO2 monitoring. I just got home from the gulf coast so I'll get those comparison shots of the internals of a 4737 and 6397 today and get them posted up here, hopefully that helps some.

Xnke

08-10-2015, 08:36 PM

Been going over the one stripped apart on my desk, here's what I am seeing:

IRF9395 INJECTOR DRIVERS
8.388MHZ CRYSTAL
MISSING: U14 AND 2 LARGE TRANSISTORS
missing transistor closest to knock filter controls pin C5, other controls C6, these are PCS high and PCS low. <--Pretty sure these are missing on my 6397 as well.

6811 A/D:
0 - battery volts
1 - right/rear O2
2 - left/front O2
3 - TPS
4 - pin A28(1K pulldown, 10K isolation)<--This is totally workable.
5 - IAT
6 - a/d mux chip's output
7 - MAP

Got anything to get me closer to locating the 1K pulldown and 10K isolation resistors for AD4? I am looking, hunting, probing, and am not seeing yet. It has been years since I did this level of hunt-and-peck, I've lost my eyes.

RobertISaar

08-11-2015, 01:21 AM

some stuff is in non-sensical locations... most of them are channels have their R/C filtering components fairly close together though, when you find one, you'll find all of them. I seem to remember a cluster of caps/resistors for the e-side a/d channels on the other side of the board, right under/around the 6811. I did all of the e-side stuff first though.... I can vividly remember where everything is for the t-side stuff, but E is a little shaky.

A28 does seem like it would work without any changes. A4 on the mux'd A/D circuit looks like it should also work.

I'll work on pulling the best of the images I have along with a mspaint masterpiece of my chip name assignments.

RobertISaar

08-11-2015, 04:36 AM

so, I'm blind. these images looked in-focus through the viewfinder of the SLR, turns out I really, REALLY need to go have my lens prescription updated. autofocus doesn't appear to like many-faceted reflective surfaces, so I had to go about it manually. combine that with a 1.8 aperture and things can get messy at times. these are the best of the groups that I shot.

all of the images should be in the same orientation as the mspaint outline, at least the chip-sides are. on the reverse side of the board, obviously there is going to be a horizontal flip, but it shouldn't be too difficult to figure out.

RobertISaar

08-11-2015, 04:42 AM

i can't figure out how to reasonably format the text in the posts either, so here is the .txt version. should be a little easier to read considering how many Tabs I put into my documents.

Xnke

08-11-2015, 08:55 AM

Back in the workshop tonight.

Since the heads needed a valve job anyway, I set the flow bench up in %Flow and started working on the intake port. I still don't have my calibrated venturis made, so I can only measure gains against the fixed orifice plate. I have what the stock heads flowed on a different bench on a different day, but using a clean valve and clean stock port, on the factory valve job, I set a baseline, then worked the port to produce a fair increase in flow while only removing 2.1CC's of material. Low-lift flow didn't suffer any, flow at 0.250" lift picked up 14%, and flow at 0.500" lift picked up 16%. Port is a little howly at 0.500" lift. At 0.550" lift it is louder, same pitch, and flow only picks up about 4% over stock. At least it didn't loose any! Stock, the port was quiet at all lifts. I did not open the gasket face of the port up any at all, MCSA is unchanged from stock. Mostly reduced and re-shaped the valve guide boss, the rest of the port just needed a little cleaning up of casting flaws around the valve seat. Port hasn't been cartridge-rolled yet, so it's right off the carbide. I didn't nick up the stock seats, so this is all on a stock valve job so far. The combustion chamber needs some attention, lots of sharp edges left over from the factory seat cutter, basically a sharp ring all the way round the valve on the intake. Exhaust valve has a nice smooth cut though, on most of the chambers. I will clean off the sharp edge and that's it for the chamber.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0225_zps76a55703.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0226_zpseb5d7fb1.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0224_zps47154d84.jpg

Found out that Comp Cams PN 26986 springs will fit the stock seats/seals/retainers, which is nice. They seem to be a universal spring with a 1" ID and 1.45" OD at the base, and with the 0.650" ID at the top, LS1-style retainers work too. PAC-1286 is the same spring, Scorpion Racing SRP-1286 is the same spring. I am calling PSI springs tomorrow to see what they got. The Comp springs are slightly over budget at this point, but something will have to happen, as the stock springs checked out all over the place for spring rate...out of 12 springs, the deviation from mean was 22%.

I asked about the resistors as I am trying to work out how they're arranged...is it a series 10K with a 1K pulldown on the 68HC11 side or a 1K pulldown on the outside-world side?

RobertISaar

08-11-2015, 09:12 AM

going off of memory, it's going to be something like:

sensor signal wire->pulldown resistor->isolation resistor->A/D pin

most of the a/d channels have a cap after the isolation resistor to form a RC low-pass filter, but I don't believe that I found one with the A28 circuit, but I did with the A4.

Xnke

08-11-2015, 01:04 PM

Do the existing O2 sensor lines have that low pass filter circuit?

I just checked my A28, it doesn't appear to have a cap in place either. Only need one of these to be suitable, I know an Innovate LC1/LC2 can source enough to drive most A/D inputs, just have to work out what the logged values would be. In this case, A28 will likely need that 1K pullup removed and reconfigured for a 10k/10k voltage divider, good medium impedance input but still a 1:1 ratio-simple 0-255 range over which to work a 0-5V logged voltage. Wideband O2 fueling control isn't really needed if it's being logged.

You seem to have A28 listed as connected to E-side 68HC11 channel 4, as well as T-side mux channel 5. Is that correct?

RobertISaar

08-11-2015, 06:18 PM

i would be surprised if it were setup any differently than how it is on every other GM ECM:

http://i.imgur.com/icXtScI.png

since O2LO is tied to ground, the cap running from O2HI to O2LO after a 100 ohm resistor is a RC low-pass circuit. without knowing the value of the cap, hard to say what it allows though.

A28 should be a pulldown, not a pullup? it's possible I stuck my probe onto a 5V reference pad and saw no resistance, but I'm fairly certain I just used the gigantic ground planes to be certain. as-is, a 1K pulldown with a 0-5V signal will draw up to 5mA, I would think that would already be well within the wideband controller's capabilities? a 10K would obviously bring it down to .5mA peak.

with the pulldown being where it is in relation to the isolation resistor, it isn't going to form a voltage divider, if that's what you're thinking.

I do remember A28 being a weird setup.... as if the factory intended to use it for something but dropped it for production vehicles. the code never references using that channel on either PROM, so what exactly was going to be done with it, I don't know. considering that there was barely enough space left on the T-side to perform an A/D conversion, I get the feeling that there was either a 64KB PROM on at least the T-side at one point(I never check to see if the PROM's pin 3 trace was broken out or not), or it was being used as an engineering-specific extra a/d channel... no idea what they would have used it for though.

something I'm remembering at the moment is that for GM MAP sensors, there is supposed to be a 50 or 51K pulldown for the A/D channel, though I couldn't say why(a guess would be due to the MAP sensor itself being fairly high impedance), it's just something I'm remembering seeing on the datasheet for one of them. something to keep in mind should a baro sensor route be taken.

Xnke

08-11-2015, 07:39 PM

It's funny you mention the PROM size, as both my 4347 and 6397 have 256K chips fitted to the board. What's limiting the program size?

Yes, the widebands I am familiar with will drive a 5mA load, but I generally try not to ask much of the sensors I can't control-with so many wideband controllers out there, some of them may not drive a 5mA sink.

I'll do a little more digging around on the board before I close up the 6397 case, make sure things are working the way I'd need them to and confirm with you that A28 is a viable input for a wideband logging input.

EDIT: It looks like on the 6397, at least in a main-power-off state, that a 0-5V input results in a 0.9 to 1.5v change on pin AD4 on the E-side MCU. That's good enough for me, I believe that logging and reporting the voltage on that pin could be used to monitor AFR. Is there enough room left in the program to log 0 to 255ADC count as a linear 10.0 to 20.0 AFR? That would work out as a simple 0-5V wideband input, usable by most brands of WB02 controller out there.

RobertISaar

08-11-2015, 08:59 PM

address pin 15 could be brought over to the PROM pretty easily, but then 2 other obstacles are left: flashing program would need changed to account for a 64KB PROM on at least the T-side and then would need to make sure that the aux chips that the T-side accesses over the parallel address/data bus wouldn't be effectively disabled with the new PROM's addressing space. logic gates/address decoders would probably be ideal here, I can't remember how much control the 6811 has over its CS circuits.... probably not enough to do it through code alone.

that's really about it.

RobertISaar

08-11-2015, 09:21 PM

EDIT: It looks like on the 6397, at least in a main-power-off state, that a 0-5V input results in a 0.9 to 1.5v change on pin AD4 on the E-side MCU.

you might need to elaborate a bit here... are you saying minimum voltage achieved was .9 and maximum was 1.5?

also, did some simulating of the MAP sensor, I see why the ECM uses a 51K pulldown for them now... other values cause the sensor linearity to suffer. with a 1K pulldown, it was rather interesting charting out pot position vs what the a/d converter saw.

RobertISaar

08-11-2015, 10:16 PM

playing with the sim, assuming a 3-terminal sensor(essentially a pot), if the pulldown resistance actually has a HUGE effect on the signal the a/d converter sees. using a 5K pot with 5 volt reference with a 5K pulldown, center voltage is 2.0.

with a 10K pulldown, 2.22 volts.
20K pulldown: 2.35
50K: 2.44
100K: 2.47
200K: 2.48
300K: 2.49

to get back to 2.50 volts(rounding to the 1/100ths digit): you need to use a 624K(or greater) pulldown.

considering the a/d converter has a resolution of ~.02 volts, that 200K pulldown is pretty safe. response at the a/d converter is extremely linear everywhere through the range as well.

now, this was with a sensor that has 5K of impedance end to end. with a 1K pot, the same trend of needing a pulldown with 40 times the impedance of the sensor itself to keep with .02 volts of accurate through the full range seems to work here as well.

RobertISaar

08-11-2015, 11:58 PM

alright, got a VERY clean looking 6397 coming in from California for $13.97/shipped. they even included a picture of the p/n sticker, has a BPJH calibration though I don't have a cross-reference for what that could be(and the lower/tearaway half of the sticker is gone), have to pull communicate with it over ALDL and check the part number that way.

Xnke

08-12-2015, 01:25 AM

I know that BKRK is the 3100 Beretta Manual Trans, and BNFM is 3.4L Camaro Automatic, but BPJH I am not sure of. Possibly 3.4L Camaro Manual.

Yes, that's what I meant about the 0.9 to 1.5v range-I was using an adjustable bench supply, but the ECU was NOT powered up.

Looking at the result you had with the simulation, I am rethinking just closing up the case. Looks like I'll have to hunt down that 1K resistor and remove it, then fit a 200K or 470K resistor (I am pretty sure I have some SMT 470K's laying around...somewhere...)

RobertISaar

08-12-2015, 01:44 AM

beretta manual? I have most if not all of the calibrations GM released for this whole lineup of PCMs, but there was never a manual 3100 anything released in the US.

with a .6 volt range, you would have roughly 30 a/d counts to work with. that would be pretty rough, considering that's a little worse than what a 5-bit A/D converter would produce.

if you really wanted to.... you could always lift the pin off of the board and setup your own filter/pulldown rather than attempt to hunt down the existing components. at this point, there isn't going to be a huge difference in the amount of work/risk required.

Xnke

08-12-2015, 01:49 AM

Ohhh, the things that this computer can do provided that a bigger PROM space is workable...

Digging through things, I *think* I see all the hardware needed to drive a Bosch LSU4.2 wideband O2 sensor, although it would make better sense to just interface a Bosch CJ125 Wideband Controller chip and run the new super-cool LSU4.9 sensor.

Xnke

08-12-2015, 10:55 PM

Yes, beretta manual. I pulled it myself, was a 1994 Beretta, manual transmission, 6397 computer. Had 3100SFI across the upper intake manifold, as far as I can tell it was "stock" but it could have been a swap.

I'll just lift the pin and put a proper interface on it, 10K isolation with a 470K pulldown resistor, if I can't hunt down the 1K pulldown that's in there. Lifting the pin would likely be easier...

I'm almost done with the intake port work, the exhausts won't need hardly anything. After that, the heads/intake/accessories get bolted up and the accessory drive gets finished...I am gonna need an idler for the power steering bracket, belt wrap over the supercharger is less than ideal and belt wrap around the power steering pump is laughable without an added idler.

Xnke

08-13-2015, 05:09 AM

I am just now realizing that while I have a good handle on the 3.4L camaro harness wiring, I know next to nothing about how my pickup is wired...or what the dash sensors need to see.

Anyone got some thoughts on which parts of the truck harness absolutely have to stay? I'm gonna be un-looming the whole engine bay harness, removing the engine control wiring, leaving the alternator/starter wiring in place, and the dash gauge wiring will stay in place. I have NO IDEA where most of that wiring is at yet-basically I'll strip the whole forward assembly down to the frame, removing everything from the firewall forward, pressure-washing the frame and scrubbing it clean, then I'll start un-wiring the engine harness from the body.

I'd like to use the original dash wiring if I can-but there really can't be that much wiring in this old truck. The dash wiring in my Datto wasn't bad at all...

RobertISaar

08-13-2015, 05:36 AM

i can pull some of that kind of info, what year/original engine/etc?

Xnke

08-13-2015, 07:26 AM

1991/1993 GMC Sonoma/Chevy S10. Originally had 4-cylinder engine, now has 2.8L V6. The conversion was done way before my time with the truck, but I have the paperwork where the V6 was purchased and the records from when the previous fleet mechanic did the change. The complete wiring harness and dash was swapped, so it SHOULD be a 1993 V6 and 8062 computer. Other than that, I have no concrete evidence of what year/model. Until a few years ago there was no legal requirement in my state-but there is now.

If so, I am worried that the computer, DRAC, and half of the associated wiring is under the dash-although there is a computer-shaped box mounted underhood in a black plastic holder, bolted to the brake master cylinder. Mostly, I don't know what I have to keep, and what can go. I know the speedo could need 2000PPM or 4000PPM, but I think it takes 2000PPM, the truck doesn't have cruise control, it does have a VSS mounted in the tailshaft of the T-5 transmission. It does not have antilock brakes, not even on the rear-only, that I can find.

I *intend* to pull the S10 wiring diagram and the Camaro wiring diagram (I already have the forward lamp harness connector worked out) and remove only the wires essential to the operation of the old ECU, and splice in the needed power and grounds into the Camaro harness. I DON'T want to get into the truck harness any further than needed, and I don't want to leave behind any old engine control wiring.

So, looks like I need to know where to tap into the Speedometer Input, work out how I'm gonna do ECM fuses as the camaro had a few more than the truck does, cooling fan relays and fuses, and the air conditioning setup-I am not opposed to letting the camaro computer work out the A/C idle-up and such. I will need to locate the fuel pump relay trigger wire, the starter-engaged signal, the VSS wiring from the transmission, Orange (I think constant power?) Pink (I belive is switched power?) and see if the alternator wiring needs computer hookup-I would prefer it didn't, because that means not messing with the perfectly functional charging system.

To summarize, I do not know what I do not know, and I do not know what I do know...

RobertISaar

08-13-2015, 07:55 AM

ugh..... at least it sounds like it was a competently done swap, not some twist-n-tape hack job that is going to require a lot of effort to undo.

I have alldata access, but I'm not sure what kind of information to pull that would be useful.

PJG1173

08-13-2015, 02:56 PM

If so, I am worried that the computer, DRAC, and half of the associated wiring is under the dash-although there is a computer-shaped box mounted underhood in a black plastic holder, bolted to the brake master cylinder.

this is an early form of rear anti lock commonly found on 93 and up models. you should also have a second block after your proportioning valve with a couple wires going to it. if you have a VSS than more than likely you have the most of the 93 components in the dash.

Xnke

08-13-2015, 08:38 PM

Excellent, so the truck DOES have antilock brakes...there's a shitload of wires going into that black box.

I am hoping that I have a DRAC under the dash that's on the fritz, as my speedometer drops out, flings around, pegs at 80+ when you're doing thirty, etc on a regular basis.

RobertISaar

08-14-2015, 09:22 AM

PJG1173

08-14-2015, 02:36 PM

the speedo on the ranger I beat around in does that, but I assumed it was normal for all worn cable-driven setups. I could be wrong, but I want to say that in 89 or so, all S/T trucks went to speed sensors rather than cables?

I think it varied for a couple years based on MT or AT. I know my buddies 89 was cable driven with a sensor in the instrument cluster for the speed signal.

Xnke

08-14-2015, 09:18 PM

My 93 has a VSS in the tailshaft housing, no cable. If it was cable drive, a new cable would fix it, it normally means the cable is broken in the housing and the broken ends are catching and turning the speedo-not uncommon. When the ends slip apart, the speedo stops.

Supposedly the changeover happened in 88, when the Tachometer went away. I'd love to get a pre-88 cluster, transplant the electronic speedometer, and have a functional tachometer on the dash...

Xnke

09-06-2015, 07:57 AM

Picked up some 0280155811 injectors this week, 36lb Bosch injectors from an L67 3800 supercharged. Also got a 58psi fuel regulator and rail from a 3400, so I should have plenty of fuel now. Also got some more aluminum stock to make the upper intake, throttle body flange, and the idler pulley bracket.

The injectors are supposedly the same ones in the Corvette ASA tune, so hopefully getting the injector settings correct won't be difficult.

RobertISaar

09-06-2015, 05:40 PM

you could grab the injector offsets from a L67 calibration as well. I've done that before for some swaps, it does take some math to translate between the two though, especially with the ridiculous injector offset resolution of this PCM.

Xnke

09-07-2015, 09:26 AM

Hmmm, think there is a calibration for a late series II 3800SC in the archives here? I'd love to be able to kick the fueling table up by 1.1 and wire the bypass open on the supercharger to get the flat-tappet cam broken in without errors-that's the biggest worry with a completely new engine build. For a flat-tappet, the really critical bit is getting it to light off and run at least 2000RPM for 20 minutes without washing down the cylinder walls with too much fuel, and not having to crank it over more than once or twice to get it to light off and run-the least amount of cranking needed means the largest amount of assembly lube left on the cam lobes to keep them safe until they're burnished in. If you really have to crank it over a lot before it fires off, the chance of reduced ring sealing or worse still a flat cam lobe goes up exponentially.

I'm thinking I need to figure out what I'd need to change for a 260ish-degree cam, the 3400cc displacement vs 3100cc displacement, and the L67 injectors, make my best guesses for those, and then I'd feel safe about cranking it up.

RobertISaar

09-07-2015, 06:19 PM

should be in the OBD2 BIN section.... I know I've uploaded quite a few. I use tinytuner to grab the data from them.

Xnke

09-17-2015, 01:11 AM

Ok, so I've gotten started on the programming here. I'm totally confused, the file naming conventions are...interesting.

I am wanting to start with the 1995 3100 beretta program, since I believe it will be closer to the end result than starting with the 3.4L F-body program. From there, I want to make the changes talked about early in this thread, then post 'em up and see if they're ballpark-correct.

The ECM to be used is a 16196397 BKRL. This was pulled from an apparently modified Beretta, with a 3100 engine and a manual transmission. God knows where it started out from.

Looking through the P66 BIN files from the thread for this PCM, I've found the Rev3 L-body folder, and have file names such as:

16230734B 94 L original FDR export lying speedometer.bin
16227354 95 L.bin
Others with similar structure.

Now, I belive the 162... number denotes the service tag? If so, my service tag isn't listed. Which of these bins should I choose to start with? Any? I have poked around in the "95 L.bin" file for now. I've got it patched with the two patches from the Boosted XDF.

Next, I need to open up a 96+ L67 calibration file and pull the injector data from it. I imagine I'll need an OBDII program to open up the calibration, hunt down the injector data, and then re-work the injector data to work in the OBD1 computer. What program to open the cal, and what parts of the injector data do I need?

RobertISaar

09-17-2015, 04:03 AM

oddly enough, GM has assigned multiple part numbers for what could be the same item... the part number on the sticker is different from the part number stored in both the E-side and T-side calibrations..... there's no real reason to it that I'm aware of. you would need to pull the calibration(or grab it over one of the ALDL streams) to see if it matches any in the archive.

the patches are integrated into tunerpro itself.... I could never get a hang of the S19 method, so when Mark implemented in the ability to have patches as an XDF item, I went that route. applying them is as simple as opening them and clicking Apply Patch. if you click F2 on one of the patches, you'll be able to see where in the BIN that bytes are being changed.

I use tinytuner to grab that kind of info.

http://theblattners.com/Projects/TinyTuner/default.html

get the most updated database as well.

then, just grab one of the appropriate BINs that were uploaded in the OBD2 BIN section(they're labeled by application) and you'll be able to find injector offsets among a wealth of other info. be aware that the P66 V6 low-PW offset table is kind of ridiculous.... I've never seen that done before or since, but it works exactly how it looks, I would write an excel function to interpolate the values that come from the OBD2 calibration, otherwise you'll be spending a lot of time doing manual math(or adjusting them in the table view).

Xnke

09-17-2015, 06:32 PM

There is a crapload of stuff in there to fiddle with...

Spent three hours in there and only just found the injector stuff. Gonna be either a joy to tune up and drive, or absolute misery.

Looks like the L67 bin has low pulsewidth offset vs MAP, but the P66 bin doesn't care about MAP...how to handle that? is the P66 code assuming 100kpa or something?

Xnke

09-18-2015, 01:09 AM

Putting together a cheap and nasty "Flash Harness" that I can plug up these ECMs, plug in the ALDL cable, and pull/push BIN files with and twiddle some input lines to see if I can get A28 to log a wideband input. Hopefully this will help me get a working, running ECM and bin file to start with by the time I've got the rest of the engine built.

Just ordered valve springs this week, so maybe the cam will get reground next week. After that it's headers, then fuel pump. I am gonna modify the F-body oil pan to fit the truck, and fit a proper windage tray to the pan.

Maybe december/february I'll be ready to start transplanting this thing, we'll see.

RobertISaar

09-18-2015, 02:11 AM

considering the fuel pressure regulator should be setup for a 1:1 rise with manifold pressure, it shouldn't have any noticeable effect... some L67(and L32) BINs are showing a change with MAP, others aren't.... kind of confusing. it should really only matter with a constant rail pressure designs. I would use the 100kPa values in any case.

Xnke

09-18-2015, 07:10 AM

I'm going through the pinouts and wiring diagrams for the 1994 Camaro wiring harness (what I have) and am finding pins that are in the harness going to the ECU that are NOT listed on the diagram...I have no idea what these wires do. I'm making a list of them, when I get it finished I'll see if I can post it up here for others to look at. .

That was the plan, using just the 100kPa values. I should have that stuff worked out tomorrow, along with these wiring pinouts. Ideally, I'll have pin A28 working and twiddly so I can work out if it can be used to log the 0-5V input.

RobertISaar

09-18-2015, 09:41 PM

i have a spreadsheet of what I'm referring to as "the" p66 v6 pinout.... I basically combined all of the p66 v6 applications into a single sheet and have them cross-referenced by application. it's been useful at times, like defining a/d inputs and outputs in the code that were otherwise unused in my application...

you may find some use to it.

Xnke

09-18-2015, 10:43 PM

That list covered most of the other wires. I'm still curious as to a few of them but mostly as possibilities for use with the intercooler system-Could I use Trans Fluid Temp to toggle TCC Control into an ON/OFF state, therefore allowing me to cycle the intercooler water pump based on intercooler water temperature?

What's more, if I CAN do something similar, that makes this a very powerful unit indeed-There are a lot of inputs/outputs that could be repurposed.

RobertISaar

09-18-2015, 11:08 PM

hmm..... with both of those being on the T-side, not really able to patch in that kind of a function. might be able to abuse the existing calibration items to do it though.

alternatively.... the a/c temp sensor(only ever used on f-body calibrations) is on the e-side and is also already setup with a pullup to 5V, and would be otherwise unused for your application. most of the existing code concerning it could be kept as-is. you have a couple outputs you could choose from on the e-side as well, depending on what equipment you plan to keep on the engine. E-side controls:

all 3 EGR solenoids
a/c clutch
CCP
AIR pump
and an unused circuit on quad-driver U34, should control pin B5.

RobertISaar

09-19-2015, 02:31 AM

just now have time to crack open my actual 6397.... there are a few differences going on compared to the 93 3.1/3.4 unit. a resistor missing/added here and there and even changes to the board itself. i'll need to check this out a bit further and make sure nothing too critical changed.

the same ICs all around(some part number changes at times.... same apparent function at least), i'll try and summarize the changes I see. red implies something was removed on the 6397 compared to the 93 unit, green is added.

E:
2: a pair of missing resistors, both part of the same circuit. 1 added resistor, a 10K pulling something up to 5V.
3: underside of large, 110 ohm resistor that was moved slightly.
4: showing 2 again, but now with a couple of caps/resistors removed from the connectors. also to the right are the addition of some solder pads, but they're not populated on this board....
5: a pair of resistors and a cap(all part of the same circuit) removed.
6: removed diode
7: showing where the resistor was moved to.
8: 3 resistors and a cap(same circuit), all removed.

T:
1: removed cap from connector, a pair of resistors(same circuit), removed. the cap they connect to on 3 is changed to a shorting link as well.
2: pair of connector caps removed.
3: showing where the changes noted from 1 continue.
5: these two components(fairly certain they're diodes) are removed. the upper was used for pin B17(unused AFAIK), lower for pin B5. pin B5 still appears to be connected everything otherwise, so it is still capable of being used, but it doesn't have what I'm thinking is a flyback diode to protect it should it be used to drive a relay or solenoid without a flyback diode integrated into them. they have a "4801" marking on them, but I don't think they're a 1N4801...
6: we lose quite a few diodes... they don't appear to cause any loss of function, seems like they were more for circuit protection than anything else.

......... and that's it.

i'll investigate a bit more on the changes mentioned, but there doesn't appear to be a whole lot of difference between the 93-only unit and the '6397...

Xnke

09-19-2015, 03:08 AM

I plan to keep the A/C, but not the temperature sensor for the A/C...I don't have the little box+thermistor for that. It's a manual truck, so the list of stuff I don't intend to keep or isn't going to be used as per OEM, that was fitted somewhere on the original system, is as below:

A/C Evaporator temperature (Pin A3)
Transmission Fluid Temperature (Pin A32)
Secondary Air Injection Control (Pin B3)
Evap Purge Solenoid Control (Pin B4)
EGR #1 Control (Pin B11)
EGR #2 Control (Pin B12)
EGR #3 Control (Pin B13)
Passkey II (Pin C23)

Auto Trans stuff that I don't need/might not even be there on 6397:

Shift Solenoid A (Pin A11)
Shift Solenoid B (Pin A12)
TCC PWM Control (Pin A13)
TCC Control (Pin A15)
3-2 Downshift Solenoid Control (Pin A16)
PRNDL A (pin A21)
PRNDL C (Pin A23)
2nd gear start lamp control (Pin B18)
PCS High (pin C5)
PCS Low (Pin C6)
2nd Gear Start (Pin C10)

I am torn on the Cruise Control stuff-I am not sure if it's usable, as my truck didn't have cruise control fitted and I am not sure how manual transmission cruise control would work, even if I did pull all the cruise junk off of another car.

Hopefully I'll get the ECM booted up on the bench in a few hours and see what I really have here.

RobertISaar

09-19-2015, 04:26 AM

E:
2: added resistor brings U10, pin 5 up to 5V... the two missing resistors appear to have been used in the same circuit, perhaps some logic was inverted?
4: connector changes effect: pin C26(never used). runs over to the missing components from image 8. pin 22 is related to the missing resistors from image 2.
5: U10 pin 2 and 5 interact here, which means it also is related to the change from image 2.
6: diode was connecting analog channel 5(IAT) with the a/d reference voltage... so if for whatever reason IAT was above 5 volts(and whatever the diode's forward voltage at x mA is), the a/d converter would start having issues.
8: covered by the images before it.

seems there were only two major changes here, with supporting modifications done alongside. the diode on IAT to Vrh is strange....

T:
1: A28 effected by connector change. related to missing resistors from same image that causes a/d channel 5 to be connected to 5V(or ground???) via shorting link? not sure what to expect here... the circuit seems pretty broken up due to the removed resistors.
2: B17 and B5 effected by connector change. both are outputs(B5 from the quad driver, B17 the surface-mount driver).

that should cover it...

some creative cutting/soldering may be necessary to add too much more than what is already here.... I'm thinking since the E-side analog4 is right on the corner of the chip(and even more unused than before), I'd just lift the pin and attach it to some add-in your own filtering/pullup/down circuitry rather than reworking. could either keep it as one channel or snake out and attach the existing mux A, B and C circuits to another mux and end up with 8. then, start cutting pins at the connectors and you'll have more a/d circuits than you'll know what to do with.

Xnke

09-19-2015, 08:19 AM

Argh. Turns out my "FTDI" USB to TTL cable that I ordered weeks ago and just now got around to plugging in is a Prolific clone. No good.

Ordered another from another supplier, hopefully it'll work out better. Still haven't been able to connect to an ECU yet.

Xnke

09-22-2015, 08:09 AM

While I wait on my *hopefully* FTDI branded cable, I did some more work on the intake manifold.

First thing to do is get it cleaned up a bit and start measuring how far off I was with the angle grinder.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0249_zpsewuqx6b2.jpg

It was +/- 40 thou, spent thirty minutes with a file and got it to this point:

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0250_zpshm9z7ljr.jpg

Then I welded up this frame, it's 0.750" tall and 0.500" thick bar, and it actually came out pretty square. A little clean-up on the welding and it was ready to be welded to the top of the intake casting.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0252_zpsy0eirvhv.jpg

Yes, I did fuck up. The sharp-eyed ones of you will notice that the intake says "front" and the frame says "back". No, it doesn't matter.

The small hole in front was easily filled in, didn't take any photos. The bigger hole in the back I did take some photos of.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0253_zpsjcy0xha2.jpg

I used some 0.213" thick plate that was in the big stack from page 1, it's thicker than the casting but I didn't have anymore of the 0.127" plate I used on the front. It'll be fine.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0254_zpsucgtet2w.jpg

When I'm not welding on shitty castings, I can go OK with the TIG with a little rum in me. None of that white rum shit, though.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0255_zpsvtsvdmdl.jpg

Now that the frame is welded on, I unbolted it from the lower intake manifold and measured how far it sprung during welding. The total out-of-flat was decent, pulled 0.013" total. That's totally workable, I'm gonna run it over to a buddy with a milling machine and have him skim it flat. Yeah, I *could* do it in the shop but the machined face on the bottom is slightly higher than the lowest part of the intake, so I'd have to find two slabs of plate that are parallel and flat, fit them both on the surface plate, and lap the intake against the plates...just more trouble than it's worth. Once the intake is flat and parallel then I'll start drilling and tapping the 20-something holes in the frame on top, that the supercharger plate will be bolted to. Once the plate is bolted down, I'll have to get the heads on the block and the lower intake manifold fitted, and get all the accessory drive bolted up, so I can get the supercharger drive pulley aligned and square. Once that's done and the super is fitted to the top plate, I can start on the headers.

There's no exterior differences between the 3.4L aluminum-headed hybrid I'm building, and the 2.8L iron-headed boatanchor in the truck, aside from the accessory drive. Originally, when the 3.4L engine still had iron heads on it, the exhaust manifolds were identical. I've dummied up the headers in PVC on the truck, so I'm pretty sure I won't have to clearance the truck with the BFH later when I go to bolt the new engine into place. If I have to apply the BFH, well, then I have to apply the BFH.

Xnke

09-24-2015, 01:49 AM

OK, FTDI cable came in today, but I can't select 8192 baud, only 9600...argh. I KNOW this cable is an FTDI FT232RL, so what gives?

Also, even with it passing the tunerpro test for cable, it will NOT connect to the ecu. I have ALL the system grounds and ecu grounds and the sensor grounds grounded. I have both battery feeds and the ignition feed powered. I have the serial ground connected to the system ground. I have the serial tx and rx connected to the serial line on the ECU. Still will not talk at all.

What gives? I want to connect and talk to the ECU to find out what bin I need to be working with.

RobertISaar

09-24-2015, 02:04 AM

with the P66 V6 ADX loaded, correct COM port selected, there should be communications. if you had a clone chip instead of a legit FT232R(they're showing up in the strangest of places), then you would need to run an older driver package and they seem to work happily.

don't suppose you have any status lights to tell you if it is sending/receiving data?

Xnke

09-24-2015, 02:52 AM

I bought directly from FTDI, it's not a clone. I have the P66 ADX loaded, the cable passes the test when not hooked up. once hooked up, it fails the test. it will not connect to the ECU, I choose connect and it will say "connecting..." but it never connects.

All the wires marked "ground" in the file you gave me above are grounded, the Battery and Ignition wires have 12.6VDC to them, and the TX and RX wires are joined together to Serial Data. The ground from the USB cable is grounded to the rest of the ECM grounds. I rolled back to the older FTDI driver as detailed elsewhere on this site. Nothing has allowed it to connect to any of the four ECM's I've got here...two 4373 and two 6397, none of them talk. I have one each 4373 and 6397 that were pulled from running vehicles that I drove before pulling the ECM, so I know they're good.

RobertISaar

09-24-2015, 03:16 AM

hmm..... everything sounds correct. the cable passing when PCM unconnected and failing when PCM connected is normal.

I don't believe there is any kind of "reasonable signal" requirement just for communications, though I've never run this particular PCM without most of the sensors connected.... maybe i'll throw together a quick harness and see if I experience the same.

Xnke

09-24-2015, 03:40 AM

I have the following hooked up and nothing else:

A1 Sensor Ground (Black) To Ground
A17 Sensor Ground (Black) To Ground

B14 Battery Input (Orange) To +12.6V
B15 Battery Input (Orange) To +12.6V

B16 ECM Ground (Black/White) To Ground
B32 ECM Ground (Black/White) To Ground

B19 Serial Data (Tan) To TX/RX on the USB-5V TTL serial cable

C1 System Ground (Tan/White) To Ground
C17 System Ground (Tan/White) To Ground

C3 Ignition Feed (Pink) To +12.6v

That's all the wires I have connected, nothing else. I do have the oscilloscope watching the serial data line and I can watch the same data packet being sent over and over again, with no response from the ECM.

RobertISaar

09-24-2015, 04:04 AM

with just the 7 power/ground connections shown here connected to a 12.3 volt source, I'm showing a draw of 340mA. I need to find one of my bare UART-USB boards to get ALDL comms tested....

http://i.imgur.com/se6jvkp.png

RobertISaar

09-24-2015, 04:09 AM

missed the part about the scope. the data being sent is for the DIC used on 94-95 grand prixs... it's sent out either 4 or 8 times a second(can't remember, it should be in the ALDL scheduler table though), so the PCM is attempting to communicate... that should rule out hardware problems, now it comes down to the USB adapter/software.

Xnke

09-24-2015, 04:36 AM

Technically I should be able to fire up a terminal emulator and listen in on that data, yes?

RobertISaar

09-24-2015, 05:03 AM

yes. I've used a few different programs in the past. a couple minutes ago, I used "OBD1 Sniffer 2", which I have no idea where it came from or who made it... works simple enough though, select a port, hit scan and it fills a text box with data. spit out this(I formatted it myself, it spits everything out raw. I want to say one of the aussie geniuses made a program that spit out the lines split up properly).

F0 56 E4 D6

0A 58 00 00 00 9E

0A 58 00 00 00 9E

0A 58 00 00 00 9E

05 5F 00 40 00 3C 7B 00 00 00 00 01 A4

0A 58 00 00 00 9E

F0 56 E4 D6

0A 58 00 00 00 9E

0A 58 00 00 00 9E

0A 58 00 00 00 9E

05 5F 00 40 00 3C 7B 00 00 00 00 01 A4

0A 58 00 00 00 9E

F0 56 E4 D6

0A 58 00 00 00 9E

0A 58 00 00 00 9E

0A 58 00 00 00 9E

05 5F 00 40 00 3C 7B 00 00 00 00 01 A4

that's exactly what I expect to see from this PCM with nothing happening...

afterwards, I opened tunerpro, selected the COM port and started up a link that way.... connected within a second and gave an error-free stream. I even grabbed the VIN from this new unit, "1g1ld55m6sy237616". 2 codes get set(TPS low and trans temp), I was able to send mode 4 commands(target AFR) and see them effect commanded operation... cleared codes via mode 10, they stayed clear for a second and then reset(as expected).

Xnke

09-24-2015, 05:32 AM

scan 9495 V6 logger connects, and shows appropriate data-so the cable and at least the 4737 is working. I get a lot of this:

Time=9:21:25 PM
Vehicle Data Request-->-----
0000000000
00 00 00 00 00

Then I slapped the shit out of the ECM out of frustration and got this:

Time=9:21:26 PM
Vehicle Data Request-->-----
Shutup Request----E45608AE----
Shutup Request----E45608AE----
Shutup Request----E45608AE----

Time=9:21:26 PM
Vehicle Data Request-->-----
Response: cs=80 Bad Checksum!
Bad Response : E4 57 0104 c0 c0 c0 c0 c0 c0 c0 c0 c0 c0 c0 c0 c0 c0 c0 c0 c0 c0 c0 c0 c0 c0 c0 c0 c0 c0 c0 c0 c0 c0 c0.....c0 c0 c0 c0 c0Engine Request-->-----E4570100----
Response: cs=78 Bad Checksum!
Bad Response E4 56 0A BC E4 57 01 00 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4C4 C4 C4 C4 C4.....C4 C4 C4 C4Actuator request-->-----F46204xx...-----

Hopefully that comes through OK.

Xnke

09-24-2015, 05:39 AM

Got it! another good slap to the ECM and I noticed the Over Current light was lit on the power supply. Cranked up the current limit and now I have full comms, both directions.

Sometimes stupid is just stupid.

RobertISaar

09-24-2015, 06:12 AM

huh... simple answers definitely aren't bad ones.

I'm using a less sophisticated method(converted ATX power supply), my overcurrent protection kicks in for the 12V rail somewhere near the 20-amp mark. 340mA is actually a bit less than what I was expecting... my full bench is based around a 16149396, which is a single P4 processor unit and I want to say it draws something like 500mA with no loads.

Xnke

09-24-2015, 06:55 AM

I just registered at PCM-Hacking.net, maybe the flash tool they've got will flash these ECM's too?

RobertISaar

09-24-2015, 07:08 AM

nowhere near similar enough IIRC.... their flashable 3800 PCMs are(I think) single P6 units(running at I think a ~3.15MHz clock) with I think a lot of bank switching going on to access much larger calibrations.

RobertISaar

09-24-2015, 07:12 AM

actually, if you're referring to this:

http://pcmhacking.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=82

there are some stipulations.... they're actually replacing an EPROM with a battery-backed SRAM module and then sending calibration changes over the ALDL link that the processor writes to the NVRAM.

so, way different in that respect.

Xnke

09-24-2015, 07:15 AM

hmmm. I wonder if I should send them a pair of P66 units, see if they want to do a free flash tool for these. The same tool works for the NVram based conversions and also the delco flash based units that they have.

Xnke

09-24-2015, 11:40 AM

Ok, got the bin pulled, patched the bin, and dumped it back to the ECU tonight, several times, all checksums come up clean so I think I've got that worked out. I feel confident now that I can successfully lift the PE4 on the E-side processor and wire it to a proper input circuit, and then just attach it to pin A28. That seems to be the most backward-compatable method, since A28 isn't used (that I know of or have found evidence of) in any production wiring harness.

Now I'm wondering if logging the 0-5V data from a wideband could be tied into the rest of the datastream in such a way that when playing back the datalog, you could see AFR variances per cylinder-the ECM is already keeping track of what cylinder is in what position, would be handy for a race engine but of limited utility when you aren't willing to chop the manifold.

Oh, turns out that this 6397 ECM is actually from a 94 3100 Grand Prix, according to the data pulled from the ECM. That would make it a small-port 3100, IIRC, which seems to be an OK place to start the tune from. 4-letter code is BKRL.

RobertISaar

09-26-2015, 06:59 AM

i don't think you could log data fast enough with anywhere near a full stream to get reliable cylinder-by-cylinder results(at 2000 RPM, if you're running a single O2 sensor and having all cylinders passing exhaust to it, that's (((2000/2)X6)/60)=100 exhaust pulses per second).... you can get a solid 700 bytes in/out of the PCM per second including overhead, but you would need a pretty short stream(perhaps with less a comm scheme with less overhead) to get raw AFR values and a cylinder identifier for each value.

alternatively.... you could have the PCM do a lot of math on its side of the fence and have a rolling average of the AFR seen for each cylinder. then send the AFR for each cylinder as a separate byte in a stream. seems like it would take considerable amounts of RAM to have a decent average... 6 cylinders, 10 sample history and a final, averaged value to send to the laptop is 66 bytes.... I don't know how far the stack will run down on the E-side(I don't know if I've ever monitored it), but it has from 369-5FF to work with in a factory calibration.... there is probably more than a sufficient amount to go about this kind of scheme. the problem I forsee is trying to correctly separate the exhaust pulses in the O2 sensor logic. I don't remember if that is run at a 80 or 160Hz rate, but 80 would allow for 4,800 samples to be taken in a minute... divided between 6 cylinders, that's only 800RPM before pulses get mixed/missed. 160 only brings it up to 1600. 160 and only monitoring half of the cylinders brings it up to 3200RPM.

for the weight of your truck... I think I would start with a L/N calibration rather than a W. after all of the rework you're going to end up with doing in the calibration, it probably won't matter that much though.

Xnke

09-26-2015, 07:10 AM

Truck weighs 2990lbs with a full tank and no one sitting in it. Just weighed it today, actually.

I know that my Innovate LC1 wideband easily discerns cylinder-by-cylinder when I use it with Megasqurt, for instance I know that Cylinder 1 in my datto runs a little too rich compared to 2, 3 and 6, but 5 runs right alongside it.

I'll start posting screenshots of the calibration as I make changes, just to make sure I don't do something stupid and assume that it's correct.

Xnke

09-26-2015, 09:44 AM

Holy shit, no wonder these engines had cooling system problems. Fan1 turnon at 225F, fan 2 kicks on a 304F??? This is the 1994 L-Body bin, by the way

I managed to change the Injector Flowrate to 36lbs/hr, fixed the Low-BPW table (good grief that's a lot of cells) and the Injector Pulsewidth Adder-vs-Fuel Pump Voltage, I multiplied the 3.1L fuel table by 1.1, and I copied the 100kPa column of the Main VE table to the 100kPa column of the Boost Main VE table.

I set the following:
Use Vaccum or MAP for Open Loop AFR (X For MAP) Set
Use Vacuum or MAP for Open Loop Closed Throttle AFR (X for MAP) Set
2/3BAR Map Support (X for MAP) Set
Max MAP for Highway Fuel/Spark is set at 90kPa
Map Sensor A/D Offset to Represent 100kPa is set at 117
Map Sensor Scalar to Make Normalized MAP For Boost Calcs is set to 1.0000
1BAR emulation - 10.3kPa A/D Offset is set to 2
1BAR Emulation - A/D Count Multiplier is set to 2.117 - Autochanges to 2.109?

That's it so far for tonight.

RobertISaar

09-26-2015, 06:26 PM

the O2 logic could be changed around to monitor individual cylinders at nearly any speed and cylinder count, but the fixed frequency method of doing O2 updates would have to be replaced with variable frequency code.... essentially tying it in with reference pulse interrupts.

that fan1 setting is common, but the reason you see 304 for fan2 is because l-cars never had a fan2. as a rule, I set my fan1 ~10*F above my thermostat temp and I'm pretty happy with it. depending on ambient temps, I actually can't get the 95 3100 monte carlo to overheat, even after idling for 45 minutes(at ~55*F), the coolant temp never reaches 205*F. idle advance appears to have a considerable impact on the amount of heat making its way into the cooling system.

for the value changing, that's just the limit of 8-bit math. with a range of 0-4 with 256 possible values, there is a resolution of .015625 per bit.

the vacuum/MAP bits probably won't have a huge effect for you unless you live at or travel through some significant elevation change, but it does make things simpler to look at. for what it's worth, I have the tables setup as if they're being viewed for MAP already.

Xnke

09-26-2015, 10:18 PM

Eh, the O2 was just thinking out loud-I don't need/want to really deal with that level of precision on this engine.

Getting down to the list of stuff I do need to figure out yet:

I need to figure out how to control the EGR outputs-I need to toggle EGR #1 based on throttle position, and nothing else. (gonna use it for the boost control solenoid) I'd like to use EGR #2 to toggle the intercooler pump, but I don't see a way to seperate control of that output from the EGR system and tie it to the A/C Evaporator temp input. On that note, I need to disable references to the evaporator temp, since I don't want the intercooler temperature to mess with the A/C system!

I am going to use both fan outputs to control the 16" two-speed electric fan, using the existing fan logic. Nothing huge changes there.

I am going to lift Pin 60 on the E-side MCU and tie it in to A28 as a 0-5V wideband input, hoping to log Wideband-vs-Rpm-vs-MAP. Ideally the wideband would read out directly as AFR or lambda, as that would make tuning quite a bit faster. Having it log as a table vs RPM and MAP would mean being able to use Excel to compare the wideband output vs commanded fuel, similar to the way that BLM history is already used. Maybe actually using the same Tunerpro methods for recording BLM would work and there would be no need for a table in the PCM? Do all the table-izing in Tunerpro?

RobertISaar

09-27-2015, 12:47 AM

what kind of impedance does the boost control solenoid and IC pump present? using the EGR1 output, you're going to be limited to about .75 amps(I think). I'm sure I've pushed the quad drivers further than that, but that is about where GM starts doubling up quad driver channels for more current capacity. EGR2 is the same .75, EGR3 is a doubled circuit, so ~1.5. with the IC pump, you're probably going to be using a relay, so maybe .2 amps will be seen by the quad driver to keep the relay controlled. if you wanted to play with some PWM-controlled coolant pump stuff, a solid-state relay or some creative use of a transistor or two would get the job done.

controlling EGR based on TPS alone isn't going to be difficult, that's a pretty small patch to accomplish. for that matter, controlling an IC pump based on the former evap temp sensor circuit is simple too since everything is on the E-side. another small patch and it's good to go.

with a non F-body BIN, any kind of signal on the a/c temp sensor circuit isn't going to upset anything since only the f-bodies used that function. even then, I'm sure there is only one flag necessary to turn off that function.

wideband can be made to read however you want... normally, the raw a/d value is going to be output over the datastream for tunerpro to do conversions on to meet the user's requirements. running its data into a table may have a few issues, namely if the target AFR for a given cell changes for any reason. then the history data is going to be skewed. perhaps a new value and table in tunerpro, one that represents a ratio of commanded AFR to read AFR, then that could be output to a RPM vs MAP table.

Xnke

09-27-2015, 04:46 AM

Boost control solenoid isn't much, maybe half an amp at most. Intercooler pump draws 10-15amps, so it will be on a relay. I took your advice and am starting with a 94 L-body bin.

RobertISaar

09-27-2015, 06:56 AM

i would put a meter on it at least once.... I wasn't expecting the linear EGR solenoids to pull over 2 amps and have to design a " quad driver current booster" module to account for it.

Xnke

09-27-2015, 10:36 AM

I'll throw a meter on it when the sun comes up, I have five or six suitable vacuum switches.

Xnke

09-28-2015, 07:03 AM

Measured some of the boost control solenoids I have, all of them measured 36-48 ohms. Under a half amp, no problems there.

Got the upper intake manifold and supercharger mounting plate drilled, tapped, and countersunk today for the supercharger mounting plate. I may start assembling the engine next week, and just use the camaro oil pan to keep the sump covered and clean until I can buy another S10 oil pan.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0001_zps5noyqsl1.jpg

Just need the oil pan and to make new pushrods, and that'll have the engine assembled all the way up to the lower intake manifold. That's the stage I need to get to in order to set the belt drive up and the super positioned properly on the manifold. Until I have the supercharger position nailed down, I can't machine for the intercooler core.

Of course I could just dummy everything up...which is the right way to do this.

Xnke

09-29-2015, 03:54 AM

Xnke

09-30-2015, 03:44 AM

After adding the A/D input onto Pin 60 of the E-side MCU, the ECM still flashes and appears to function completely normally. Of course, I can't see it do anything yet really, but at least nothing got broken yet.

On the hardware side of things I've managed to butcher the top plate, things are slightly wonky but everything is going to seal up fine and nothing is a deal-breaker. And on the outside of things it looks like it's meant to be that way, so it's all good.

Dummied up the engine for the ten minutes it took to measure for the supercharger belt alignment, got all that worked out. Once the belt alignment was known, the rest of the top plate was easily hacked out and the intercooler core positioned. I still need to get proper screws for everything but so far the pile of bolts in the floor has provided everything I have needed. (A literal pile of bolts in the floor, when I go to the junkyard I collect free bolts and then dump'em in the floor to sweep the dust off)

Next up is the water lines, how to get them in and out of the manifold and intercooler core.

Xnke

09-30-2015, 09:03 AM

Forgot to do the rocker arm thing today. I'll get around to it...

I did assemble the Tower Of Power today, needed to figure out what to get to make the throttle body fit where it belongs. This may be a wide flat cowl hood when I finally get it on there...

Gonna have to address this problem...

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0002_zps50tb0ydk.jpg

It's possible I'll need to add a little metal to the back of the base plate, but more likely I will need to add a bolt boss to the supercharger case. It's doable.

And this is why. The bypass valve pretty much straddles this screw, there's plenty open area there to flow air through but I'll have to bevel and radius the opening to make airflow smooth, to keep bypass noise down. I didn't do this on the datsun and the bypass valve is FUCKING LOUD.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0003_zps3y7f99yv.jpg

I did get the intercooler core mounted, just gotta work out the tubing inside the intake manifold. May get interesting.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0005_zps4lmofttg.jpg

The Tower, minus the cylinder head I didn't need. I may bolt it up tomarrow to level things out, but for what I needed, it was just more bolts.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0006_zpsvgjbewwc.jpg

And this is where I want the throttle body to sit, If I can get it here then I will have absolutely no problem removing the valve cover without unbolting the supercharger. Will take a 135 or 180* 3" aluminum bend, Or I could be a cheap bastard and pie-cut it.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0007_zpsozbs5jud.jpg

If I were to pie-cut it it would be hours of grinding and sanding inside the bend to get it smooth, so it may be worth it just to get an aluminum bend when I order more exhaust parts.

RobertISaar

10-01-2015, 04:11 AM

Am installing the added circuitry for the general purpose A/D input on the ECM right now. I am thinking instead of pin A28, which is allll the way on the other side of the ECM, why not just use C7? So that's what I did. There's nothing at all tied to C7 on any diagram I found so I just appropriated it.

that can work, assuming there isn't connection to the pin anywhere else on the board(and damn can they get difficult to find)... I get around that by just cutting the pin off of the board entirely and soldering to the "stub" left on the connector.

Xnke

10-01-2015, 05:43 AM

That's actually what I did, cut the pin off and soldered to the stub.

Am working on a LS1 rocker arm conversion right now, I wanna use the 1.7 ratio rockers on my intake valves to kick the lift up without increasing the duration...I can get roller-cam level valve motion with the old flat-tappet cams. Don't really think I'll go through it it though because I just don't think I need the extra cam. If I twincharge the engine later I'll kick the intake lobe up with a 1.7 rocker, but for now it just doesn't look like it'll be worth the work.

Xnke

10-20-2015, 07:44 AM

The shortblock is all but assembled, waiting on the cam to show up and a new crankshaft key. Once I have those two items then everything from the heads down can be assembled.

In the meantime, the bottom end is in a bag, the heads are bolted on straight through the bag in the photos below. I am checking clearances and have been working on the throttle body inlet tube.

This is the new threaded hole in the head for the power steering bracket-it's level with the old hole but moves over about 15mm.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0033_zpscdnwtfct.jpg

It's not blind though, so thread sealant is required here. I will probably just bond in a stud.

The camaro alternator mount already has a blind hole in it that just needs to be drilled through, and it'll bolt up to the GenIII/IV cylinder heads. I'm lucky I had a set of GenII valve covers, because the alternator-to-valve cover clearance is TIGHT.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0037_zpshlv20w2v.jpg

Really, really tight. May need some additional clearancing later when all the gaskets get fitted up. Only about 5mm there now, and I'll loose 2mm total when all the gaskets go on.

Here's the intake mocked up on the heads, I am trying to work out where I want the throttle body to sit in this photo. I've got that nailed down, but it will take some work to get the pipe snaked in the way I want. It's going to take a lot of cuts no matter what, so I chose not to cut up the 3" aluminum bend I bought for this and I'll just lobsterback it.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0036_zpstaq34rjs.jpg

I am almost done with the cylinder heads, then I can bolt them down on the block with the headgaskets this time.

Xnke

11-04-2015, 02:05 AM

Been working out of town the last month, but have gotten a few things going the right direction now. Found a few places to buy Delphi connector parts, including the pins, back shells, and colored covers for the ECU connectors. I was thinking of using the camaro forward harness assembly I have but there is a LOT of it that would be wrong/too long/too short, so I am going to split it and make an "engine" harness, "engine bay" harness, a "transmission" harness, and a "body" harness.

The trans harness will be for the manual, but the EFI harness that it plugs into would have all the auto trans stuff populated. This way if I keep breaking T5's I can just plug in the 4l75e I have sitting in my floor. I haven't converted the bellhousing yet, I am still thinking about that.

Did the 4l60e's with removable bells ever come behind the V660? I haven't seen one yet.

Xnke

11-23-2015, 08:09 AM

Been pretty busy, but I decided to start on the headers today.

Passenger side first, as it's got the most crap in the way. Keep in mind these headers should have a primary length of 44", then merged into a 2.5" collector for another 10". I've only got the first 15" of tubing done here.

Tight, tight, tight on the A/C compressor, not much way around it.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0069_zpsravtvgbz.jpg

Have to maintain some room from the knock sensor and the crank position sensor on that second tube...CPS is not visible here because the block is bagged.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0068_zpss2i14iqz.jpg

This enormous starter motor is going away. It's almost as big as the cylinder head. Denso big block mini starter got ordered, and I will mod it if needed to fit. Standard SBC is 153 teeth on the flywheel, but straight-across starter bolts. BBC is 168 teeth, with offset bolts. V6-60 family has offset bolts in the BBC pattern, but a 148 tooth flywheel. I am hoping that I can shim/modify the new starter to work. If not, well, then I just need to build a BBC so I can use this starter.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0071_zpsyfup0aop.jpg

The wire brush is laying on the two bellhousing bolt bosses, showing me where 1" off the bellhousing is. I will still be able to route pipe within 3/8", this was just a quick way to get me in the ballpark.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0072_zpsqiwvrtop.jpg

Since these header tubes have to be over 40" long, and the total distance they have to travel changes by 11" from front to back, packaging is going to get interesting.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0073_zpse4zwc9ok.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0074_zpsbqcqs60l.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0075_zpsblh3qwxt.jpg

Working on that last tube:

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0076_zpsse9h9vun.jpg

Not quite right yet...

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0078_zpsogbsijdw.jpg

Was kinda overly focused and a bit tired so I forgot to take the rest of the photos. Here's a few shots on my kitchen table, I wasn't going back out to the shop tonight, temperature was too low. It was 38F/3.3C in the workshop for the last few hours.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0079_zpsxmwroxzl.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0082_zpsxsykxrbo.jpg

Tomorrow night I plan to start the other three cylinders, which should be much easier to do, as there is not much on that side. Just have to miss the oil pressure sending unit, and keep them tight to the block and pretty much straight down. Since the local coating shop shut down I have to figure out who I want to coat these, since they're mild steel. I could coat them myself, I've done it before, just have to get the coatings again.

RobertISaar

11-23-2015, 07:23 PM

if nothing else, the starter from a later 3400 application is tiny compared to the older style units.

Xnke

11-24-2015, 04:53 AM

Only issue is that it bolts to the wrong side of the block. The starter I bought is the same Denso starting motor as the 3400-3500 engines use, but it's a gear reduction unit and bolts up using the BBC bolt pattern, which may or may not get me close.

RobertISaar

11-24-2015, 05:28 AM

hmm.... I know a few projects where the other side of the block was drilled/tapped since all of the bosses were still there. I don't know if there was a cutoff for that in the casting to have at least bosses on both sides of the block?

http://60degreev6.com/forum/showthread.php/31770-3-4L-RWD-to-FWD-Starter-drilling

that comes up in a quick search.

Xnke

11-24-2015, 05:00 PM

As far as I can tell there are no bosses in my block for one-the outside bolt would be being drilled into a 45 degree angle, which would truly suck even with a milling machine.

kur4o

11-28-2015, 01:12 AM

Hi, RobertISaar
Do you managed to find the software addresses for a4, a7, a28 pins.
I need to log pin a7, I checked the voltage and it has 5v output. It is perfect for logging fuel gauge.
I still has to find a way to load it in eside ram.
I am almost done with PIN mapping and found the ram register addresses for all of the inputs and some of the outputs.

Pins left to identify are C19, C24 - these appear dead pins
and C22 -5v
C26 -4.52v
I think C22 and C26 goes to TPU register and are used for freq input or some position sensor input like VSS or camshaft.

RobertISaar

11-28-2015, 08:49 AM

A4 should be the E-side's mux'd A/D channel 3
A7 should be the E-side's mud'x A/D channel 2
A28 should be the T-side's A/D channel 5

A7 already being on the e-side, you'll just have to break a small patch in somewhere, I don't believe it to be read/stored in the factory code, but it has been a while since I've looked at the non-used a/d channels.

C19 and C24, no idea, I don't have any notes about them, so I may have considered them dead ends as well.

C22 and C26 possibly being pulsed sensor inputs is possible, even likely. the last time I had one of the P66 V6 PCMs open, I did notice some discrete components missing from some of the C connector's circuits that looked like they may have been used as such, but I either didn't investigate further or didn't find anything of particular interest. since both the E-side and T-side TIC channels are already completely used, I don't know what else could have been present, unless it doesn't go to the 6811s directly... or at all?

kur4o

11-30-2015, 12:07 AM

Thanks for the help.
I did make some experiments and here is what I found

On Tside

#0 AD 252 PIN A31 coolant
#1 TPS AD 251
#2 Open state ad counts $c2 which is about 4v I measured all the pins on the knock filter and all showed 0v ??3rd pin knock filter??
#3 MAP AD DB
#4 TRANS TEMP AD 124
#5 PIN A28
#6 Battery AD BA
#7 PCS current 197

ESIDE
$000 AD IGN VOLTAGE 185
$100 L02 AD 144
$200 R02 AD 155
$300 TPS AD 24e
$400 PIN A28
$500 MAT AD 263
$6xx
$700 MAP AD 182

$600 AC PRESS 288
$620 FUEL PUPM AD 19b
$640 PIN A7
$660 MUX AD 188 PIN A4
$680 AC EVAP AD 187
$6A0 KNOCK SENSOR AD 186
$6C0 Coolant AD 264
$6E0 No PINS INTERNAL CONNECTED shows $00 at open state Poss flash Vpp voltage

I got the voltage at pin a7 and my plan is to log 0-90 ohm fuel sender. Than I will use one of the PWM channels(at Pin B3 or B5) to drive a gauge.
My current problem is that I got very low ad resolution. I got $13 ad counts at 90 ohm and $01 at 20 ohm. Do you have any idea how to get higher resolution?
Maybe swap some of the resistors on the board.

I am almost sure that pin c22 and c26 goes to the third processor on e-side board. It is one of the big chips. What i know is that it has some build in rom. Share memory address with eside 68hc11 at around 3bb0 -3fbc. At these addresses the 2 processor exchange data. Maybe the third processor uses some of these memory region as its own ram, I can see only the references from 68hc11 in the disassembly.

RobertISaar

11-30-2015, 12:41 AM

your notes match most/all of mine, differences may be explained by my primary study of the 93 only unit.... I wasn't expecting much change with the 94-95 PCMs, but there does appear to be some.

with pin A7 only having a 909-ohm pullup to 5V(this may be specific to the 93 unit, you'll want to verify) and attempting to use the 0-90 ohm range of the fuel level sender as a voltage divider, range will be problematic. you'll either need a pullup with much less impedance or use a different sender, like what was used on most ~97-up applications, should have a 50-250 ohm range IIRC. not sure which is more feasible for your application. I've run stuff like this through Falstad's circuit simulator(link (http://www.falstad.com/circuit/)) to get a good idea of what to expect and to prototype to some degree.

the "3rd processor" could be one of 3 possible chips the microcontroller has its address lines connected to. the "37414" has all of the address/data lines directly connected, the 16126532 has all directly connected but A10, which is connected to I believe a logic gate(P31AB 47816). the 56597 has all data lines, but only A0-A3 connected(16 addresses), though the microcontroller's CSGEN circuit is connected to pin 48 of that chip. may be something interesting going on there. CSIO1 and CSIO2 are both connected to the 37414 chip(pins 43 and 42 respectively).

that address range is similar/identical to the "P4 timer chip" as found in slightly older PCMs, which is essentially an auxiliary input/output controller, it acts on data sent from the PCM and can return data to it as well when requested. if there were more pulsed inputs, that is certainly where they would end up.

Xnke

11-30-2015, 07:16 AM

Overkilled the shit out of a valve cover notch tonight. Might have to grab another valve cover next time I'm in the yard and do it over, but it's purely cosmetic at this point. The rocker arms have plenty of clearance.

This is a Gen2 valve cover-it doesn't *really* fit on the head. The two bottom valve cover bolts do not line up without cocking things all stupid, and they use a different style of bolt to hold them down. They DO clear the alternator, though.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0085_zpsdmqf7tte.jpg

This is the un-modified Gen3 valve cover, before I started chopping. The black cut line would make it the same height as the Gen2 cover.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0084_zpsf12ggyvg.jpg

Well, now it clears the alternator....I didn't realize at the time I was marking it up that I was taking a BIG chunk. Oh well, it's painted black, and I can't see it from the driver's seat.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0087_zpswywjsw1a.jpg

Another gratuitous header shot-this time they're on the engine. I still haven't done much with the other side, yet.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0083_zps9ghypp5n.jpg

Maybe more tomorrow.

kur4o

12-01-2015, 02:17 AM

I dig deep into the board of 98 pcm and found it has 243 ohm resistor, vs 909 ohm on the 94 board. They are of similar size and likely 0.75w. Everthing else is aranged identical with 10k isolation.
The 98 pcm uses the newer style sender with 50-250 ohm sender, and with that resistor it goes upto to 2.5v. I will have to live up with 0-90 ohm, the low resolution and do some interpolation.
Also test the pwm channel at pin b5 with mode 4 command. It will work perfect for my application.
The output register of pin b5 is located at word_106c on eside. I wonder about the first byte of the pwm register, the second is the duty cycle, so I guess the first will be frequency. Any ideas how to manipulate it and what are the limits.
When I am done with this will test some 64kb chips. Pin a15 on the t flash chips is grounded. Is the corresponding pin on the processor connected to something or is left open? First I will test with pin left open. Than if it doesn`t work I will try to destroy the board with some solder work.

Xnke, You have great fabriaction skills. That headers look so sweet. How much is the estimate for the power output?

RobertISaar

12-01-2015, 03:17 AM

with a 243 ohm resistor and a 0-90 sender, you would have a ~1.35 volt range.... you could almost repurpose the op-amp that is used to amplify the O2 sensor signal, they're setup to operate as voltage multipliers of 4.5. a 330 ohm pullup resistor and O2 amp(or equivalent) would bring you to a ~4.8 volt range while retaining the 0-90 ohm sender.

I'm not sure what the first byte of those registers will do, the ones that are taken care of via the P6 timer chip use the first byte for frequency(selectable between the classic 8, 16, 32, 64 and 128Hz used with the P4), but that address range isn't taken care of by the P6 timer AFAIK. I'm sure it's frequency but I'm not certain of how it is controlled yet. manipulating it may require playing a bit with the code, I only see 1 place in the code where the first byte is written for most compared to just the LSB being updated in most instances.

the 6811's A15 runs to a few different places, I'm not sure where the best place to latch into it would be though. you'll also then have to somehow arbitrate between the various chips that would respond to reads/writes at whatever address. I'm not sure if just avoiding placing code/calibration in those areas will be sufficient.

Xnke

12-02-2015, 01:55 AM

I figure between 280 and 310HP, all told.

Just cleaned the screen on my welding coolant pump and it started leaking on me...grrrrr!

Xnke

01-23-2016, 07:16 AM

So I've spent a little time on this and gotten to this stage of the game:

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0100_zpsm0rl0asn.jpg

A few more bits of tubing bent and a couple of welds will have the intake manifold completely finished, and then it's time to finish up the exhaust manifolds.

Once the exhaust is done, it'll be on to finishing up the belt drive.

Xnke

02-02-2016, 10:47 AM

So the wiring harness isn't so bad. I've only had to lengthen a few wires, most of them have been too long actually. I am making plans to fit the 4L60e auto trans later when the manual blows up, the wiring harness already supports it and so does the ECU, so why not? If I didn't have to use the truck regularly for a while I'd convert it to automatic right from the start-but I do use it and thus being able to tune the engine and transmission independently (even when the stock factory auto tune is still in the computer) is a bonus.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0121_zpsv6dhw1fy.jpg

Have to add a switched power circuit and a power ground, already have the two sensor grounds and two sensor signals for the O2 sensors. They'll be along the trans wiring harness, as the exhaust runs down that side of the car already. The VSS sensor is also in that section, but someone got to it with snips before I pulled the harness. I have another connector, but I have no idea how much of the wiring was cut out with it, so I'll probably have to add some back once it's in the truck.

Getting down to it, It is starting to feel like I would have a far easier time of things if I just added an "engine" fuse/relay block to source all the switched power from. The truck harness has three fused circuits for the ECU, but the camaro harness has five, plus the one I add for the heated O2 sensors, plus the automatic transmission uses two fuses that aren't in the manual harness, apparently. Total fused circuits is now up to 9, and while some things (like injector power circuits, they're split) I am ok running from a single fuse, other things (like the torque converter clutch solenoid) I'd prefer to have their own fused circuit.

The interior connectors haven't been too terrible so far-Only one of them is a power circuit, the starter line is superfluous so no worries there, the automatic gear select wiring is nicely seperated out from the dash harness in the Camaro so I just ordered the section of harness from ebay for that, along with the gear selector from a 1994 Oldsmobile Bravada (console shifter in those) and now I'm hunting a console from a Blazer or Bravada, and some seats and seat brackets from the Bravada or Blazer.

Scope Of Work is creeping up now...I need to hurry up and get this engine in before it gets away from me!

Xnke

02-09-2016, 09:11 AM

Got the two intercooler water lines fixed up, just gotta high-pressure leak test and then scrub-scrub-scrub the manifold. I'll have the blower reassembled and lubed this week and the wiring harness should be finished up this coming weekend.

Getting close now!

Xnke

02-13-2016, 10:49 PM

Kind of irritated with myself now-If you look close you'll see I've got a coolant temp sensor plugged into the back of the cylinder head in the wiring shot above.

Except it's got a pink and a black wire routed to it.

It's the Ignition power plug, not the coolant temp sensor.

Gonna have to fix that....just not gonna run that way...

Xnke

04-02-2016, 08:51 PM

Planning to sort the rest of the wiring issues today, and get the engine bay harness started. May do the fuel tank today too, while it's mostly empty.

Xnke

04-07-2016, 04:31 AM

Fuel pump installed (Factory Syclone pump, AC Delco EP381...should do me fine) and now I've got plans to install a second tank in the S10-Blazer position and run dual tanks...will do that later.

Engine is now fully assembled oil pan to supercharger. Belt drive is in place and belt tensioner works properly, need to shim the supercharger pulley out 1/8". Need to drill for brake booster and PCV fittings behind the throttle plate, and breather fitting to airbox.

Water reservoir has been fabricated and the water pump for the intercooler is fitted to the truck, the heat exchanger is still being fettled before being bolted on and plumbed up. Oil cooler and oil filter remote mount are still waiting to be mounted.

Air conditioning system isn't quite worked out electrically yet, without having the evaporator temperature sensor, will the 4737 PCM balk about the air conditioning being manually on/off? I'd like the idle-up and timing adjustments that the computer does with the A/C, but don't want to go hunt down another evap temp sensor and install it. (though if I need to I can.)

RobertISaar

04-07-2016, 07:37 AM

there may be a switch in the code to use F-body vs non f-body style a/c controls... I'm not 100% on that, but it would make sense seeing how they were the only platform to use the evaporator temp sensor.

Xnke

04-07-2016, 09:51 PM

You wouldn't happen to know how the non-F-body A/C worked, do you? This is the last bit of wiring to do before looming the engine harness...the transmission harness loom has to wait until the headers are done and the O2 sensors are in place. (Planning to do those this weekend!)

Once the headers are finished, next on the list of crap that has to be done is oil cooler lines, but that kinda has to wait until it's in the truck. Followed closely by water lines for the intercooler, and then A/C lines get made.

The only things stopping the engine install *right* now are headers, oil lines, and the underdash wiring-of which there won't be very much!

RobertISaar

04-08-2016, 07:41 PM

You wouldn't happen to know how the non-F-body A/C worked, do you? This is the last bit of wiring to do before looming the engine harness...the transmission harness loom has to wait until the headers are done and the O2 sensors are in place. (Planning to do those this weekend!)

dead simple, really. it's just the f-body style a/c system without the evaporator temp sensor(or the PCM doing any of the diagnostics it is used for). w-bodies used dual fans, other platforms used singles.

Xnke

04-08-2016, 08:06 PM

Hmmmm. For now I'll be running the mechanical fan-so no electric fans yet. The electric fans come later, one step at a time. (electric fans and I have a war going on right now...)

I'm starting the battery relocation tonight, hoping to do a nice long distance road test with the new battery tomarrow. Headed to the parts yard, to get a fuel sending unit for a gen1 Blazer and hopefully an un-holified gas tank for the same. Gonna dual-tank the truck, I want more driving range for some areas around here-you don't find good quality fuel in a lot of places around here, corvettes, racetracks, and all.

RobertISaar

04-09-2016, 05:50 PM

Hmmmm. For now I'll be running the mechanical fan-so no electric fans yet. The electric fans come later, one step at a time. (electric fans and I have a war going on right now...)

mechanical fan would work, should probably adjust out the IAC adders for the fan(s) though, otherwise you'll have a temporary idle surge when the PCM wants to kick a fan or two on. should be a 2D table for IAC steps vs A/C PSI which would still be relevant to you.

Xnke

04-10-2016, 05:31 AM

I'll have to make a note of that. I'll have to figure out what to do about the A/C pressure sensor though, I don't think the S10 has the same kind of pressure switch. I do belive I have one though, in the stack of parts!

RobertISaar

04-10-2016, 06:22 AM

if you're lucky, you'll be able to thread the sensor in place of the high-side switch?

Xnke

04-10-2016, 08:00 AM

Grabbed a tank from a Gen2 Blazer, so the fuel sending unit isn't the correct one for the dash gauges. (Dash gauge wants 0-90 ohms, Gen2 blazer is 40-240 ohms) The solution, I think, is to cannibalize a Gen1 S-10 pump hanger and swap the sending units. Blazer pump arm is a different shape though, so either will need to be a gen1 blazer sender or will need some work. At least this sending unit has the correct pump hanger, no mods needed.

I went to a new You-Pull yard today, was a boon as they don't slash the tank like most yards do, just a nice neat 25mm hole cut in.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0222_zps6vtefkot.jpg

A little file work to clean off the galvanization, slapped a patch on the tank, and pressure tested with water to 20PSI.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0223_zpsqqo0xlrf.jpg

Now I gotta get this bit of junk out of tank, it's pretty clean inside other than that.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0225_zpszesvccgd.jpg

Tomorrow I'm gonna try to pull the bed off and see what I can get done as far as mounting the tank. I chopped out a fuel filler door from a Gen1 truck, just need to get the tank mounted and lock down the fuel door location along the length of the bed. I'm going to be cutting it in right at the same vertical level, so need to figure on how low the tank needs to be to make it fill correctly. Last thing I want is a tank that chokes at the pump, or that can't be filled at all!

Xnke

04-10-2016, 08:35 AM

Heh, ten minutes after I posted the above, I managed to swap a spare Chevy sending unit onto the Blazer one. A little fiddling got the float arm on it, and whadda ya know, it works out to be 10 ohms to 100 ohms...supposed to be 0 to 90 ohms, but it seems close enough.

Cut the foam wrap on the fuel pump to check the part number, whadda ya know, it's already been changed out for a Delco EP381...same pump I put in the front tank. Double score! Needs a new fuel strainer, I'll risk a lot but I won't risk that. Six bucks is cheap insurance for the junkyard pump.

Now, a bit of wire, bit of steel, bit of swearing, and it'll all be together again.

Xnke

04-15-2016, 07:29 AM

Have to run some fuel lines in the truck, so I started looking for a Parker Tubing Bead Roller tool to put proper hose beads in the end of the tubing. The price was SKY-HIGH for a new one and I couldn't find a used one, so I made a few of them myself. They seem to work just fine.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0237_zpslo8reuy5.jpg

Will be a big help in hose retainment on the high pressure fuel lines.

Also started the rustectomy, this is the doubler panel behind the seat that is right below the rear window-the speaker wiring runs through here.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0226_zpstdu0uod0.jpg

Started cutting it out and this is what the back side looked like:

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0235_zpsjdxgsgyb.jpg

The actual outside layer of the cab however was completely unrusty-just a little blackening, no pits or anything. A patch will get welded in and painted, job done.

Also hit the big 2 today:

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0234_zpsd1ecg81z.jpg

Time to get on it and finish this engine swap. Only lack a little wiring and some hoses, and a little sawz-all work on the hood...

Xnke

04-25-2016, 01:19 AM

Ok, so been working on finishing up the wiring. Basically connectorizing everything I "need" to run the PCM. I'm down to the following:

Serial Data-ALDL data line
Vehicle Speed-this is a 4000 PPM speedo drive.
Oil Pressure-Does what it says on the tin.
Clutch Anticipate-Not sure on this one. I have an automatic harness and PCM...
SES light-this grounds to light the SES light.
Diagnostic Request-Dunno. Probably goes with the ALDL stuff.
Tachometer to Cluster-would go to the gauge cluster-wish I had a tachometer for it to go to though.
A/C request-I *think* this needs to go to the Low-Pressure Cutout switch, as that's where the 8052 PCM gets this line from.

Now, speaking of A/C, the truck I have uses ONLY a low-pressure switch, so I'll have to splice in the high-pressure sensor port in the high pressure line. The original low-pressure switch will just go unused, as the 4373 doesn't use it, nor does the 6397.

I'm still trying to work out the Clutch Anticipate switch connections, is it an active-high, or active-low, how does it hook up to the current clutch switch, etc.

RobertISaar

04-26-2016, 06:03 PM

http://imgur.com/a/Gylj1

Xnke

04-27-2016, 02:22 AM

Thanks, Robert.

Looks like the Auto harness does not have the pin in the right place-even though it claims to use that pin for other stuff, there is no A22 pin in there. I'll have to repurpose one.

Xnke

07-13-2016, 08:16 PM

Bought myself another truck to drive while I work on this-plan is to strip the engine bay out and paint the firewall, then get this ECU and engine combo installed. Wish me luck in getting it done before I sell the new truck!

Xnke

08-21-2016, 11:06 PM

So, I'll never buy another GM product with the drive-by-wire throttle. Biggest nightmare I've ever dealt with...after replacing the throttle, throttle wiring to computer, accelerator pedal, ECM, BCM, complete engine wiring harness, complete body harness, AND the fuse block assembly...

The P2135 code in my "drive this" truck STILL plagues it. And on top of that the 2.8L 4-cylinder shit a rod bearing out, as evidenced by the knocking and glitter in my engine oil.

Soooo....Anyone wanna buy an engine swap canadate? 2005 GMC Canyon...I'll make you a sweet deal! (Or I'll do a OBD2 3500V6 swap...)

Back to your regularly scheduled (yeah, right) updates, I'm taking the afternoon to finish up the remainder of the wiring for the project truck. So far, not much has changed but I do have a complete(ish) fuse block connector, so I should be able to work on that some. Unfortunately due to the newly crapped out rod-bearing, I'll be driving the project truck. Not a good plan, but it is what it is.

Time to dig back into the wiring diagrams and get the harnesses finished 100%!

Xnke

10-27-2016, 01:40 AM

So this happened...

There are some bugs to sand out. One bug in particular jumped onto the panel RIGHT as we were spraying the first coat of clear and I didn't catch him until we were done...he is perfectly preserved for eternity. The rest of them will sand out, as they're standing on top the clear.

Now THIS is what primer should look like off the gun, alright alright!

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0511_zpsh5sew7x7.jpg

Sanded out to 600 grit wet, that spot of sanded-through-to-filler will bite me in the ass later:

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0512_zpsexlmdwsh.jpg

Totally spaced on getting any shots of the sealer...it makes the whole thing feel like a grey plastic milk jug, and you totally doubt it'll look any good at all in that stage. Oh well. Also spaced out on getting photos of the minor color-because I'm a doof. I do have shots of masking over the gunmetal getting ready to spray today, though!

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0514_zpst4dgyhrq.jpg

Taping over raw basecoat is not exactly recommended, but it works for me. I'll have to get a photo of WHY it's not recommended as I had an issue in one of the fenders, but it's way too late to fix it at the point I discovered it...I used the wrong type of masking paper and shot blue clean through it. One of the fenders has a tiny bit of blue overspray on top of the gunmetal, and since the metallic basecoat can't be sanded, nor wiped with reducer, and can only just be nibbed without fucking with it...I'll have to live with it and learn from it.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0515_zpscl3u0cwp.jpg

All taped up and ready to shoot the major color!

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0518_zpstn1scdsy.jpg

Blue is on, still taped up there. No clear on that yet...not too shabby for painting it on the loading dock!

Final clear on, letting it flash off here-the bugs don't show in the photos, but they're still there.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0520_zpsilej0xvl.jpg

Drug the cab out into the sun to try and get some heat into it, and so we could see both colors together for the first time:

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0521_zpslff6wgqe.jpg

And the fenders under "streetlamp" type lighting, the sun was too bright to get a glare-free enough photo.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0522_zps39maosdn.jpg

The cowl:

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/XjakobX/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0523_zpsfbd5nvas.jpg

Pretty fuckin' stoked, guys. Pretty fuckin' stoked.

Xnke

11-22-2016, 09:21 AM

Got this thing cranked over and ran a little tonight-having some fairly irritating issues with Tunerpro to work out. It cranks up and fires off immediately, but will stall out unless I keep the RPM's over 1800, anything over 1800RPM is fine. Could be a lot of things there, tuning, cam, blower in bypass mode, etc. Can't know yet. Still haven't got the O2 sensors in the pipes yet, that happens tomarrow. Tunerpro seems to have a very dirty data stream-it's somewhat difficult to connect(Easy to connect if I connect within a few seconds of turning the ECU on)but once connected, the RPM/CoolantTemp/BatteryVolts etc all will cease updating, drop to implausible numbers, and update slowly, then all the sudden back to normal for a few seconds, then update slowly, implausible numbers, etc. Gotta be a datastream issue. Need to mount the battery and actually assemble the vehicle, right now the battery is laying on the ground with the cables run out the fenderwell...it actually belongs behind the driver's seat. Once the battery is mounted and I have the exhaust roughed in, I'll drive it back to the house and get actual usable, data for you guys here to see what's going on.

Xnke

11-24-2016, 02:28 AM

Have the exhaust finished up far enough to get the O2 sensors in it, that should take care of any DTCs that would be set-now to seal up the leaking accessory bolt to keep the coolant inside the engine, and things should be ready for the actual run-in. Hope to get better data regarding the Tunerpro connection issues this evening, seems that it might be the DIC chatter.

RobertISaar

11-25-2016, 03:26 AM

that does sound like DIC messages, but you shouldn't really be experiencing that.... at least I never have using my definition.

Xnke

11-25-2016, 05:18 AM

Turns out the DTC's were transmission fluid temperature out of range. Also, Scan94/95 seems to think I don't have a cam signal? dunno. Working on that bit later, I think. Engine wouldn't run under 2000RPM due to the patch being applied for the 2/3 bar map sensor, but the flag to toggle the 2/3 bar map sensor usage was unset. I set the flag, flashed the ECM, and now the map sensor works correctly. Curiously enough, when the computer thought I was making 20Kpa at 2000RPM, the fueling was spot on... What did we decide about baro updates and being able to datalog the wideband signal on that AD0 pin? Those will be important shortly, both can be worked around easy enough in hardware. Really if the AD0 pin was just converted to a 0-255 value and sent out to Tunerpro, I think that'd be plenty enough, just like logging battery voltage or similar. Dunno what to do with the baro updates, other than just do the baro updates when RPM = 0

RobertISaar

11-25-2016, 07:04 AM

at this point, memory isn't much of an asset... if you're certain it was AD0(E-side mux'd signal anyways), about the only thing required would be to remove the A/D to real-world conversion on the a/c pressure sensor item and change it to whatever matches your wideband controller for an AFR signal. that's all done in a few clicks in tunerpro. it's already sent out in the datastream as a raw A/D conversion. baro updates.... may be stuck with only having updates with the engine off. I'm not sure what I did in the code about it at this point, I would have to dig around and rediscover. to have it update at any other time would absolutely require a dedicated barometric sensor.

Xnke

11-25-2016, 08:16 AM

It's E-side processor...but it's pin 46 on the MCU, which is Port E bit 5, AN5, and as best we could tell it was unused, I thought? I don't even think the factory bins did anything with it at all? It's been a few months, I had to go back and pull the cover off the ECM to take another look. EDIT: It appears it was grounded in the OE configuration, which would tell me it's unused. I lifted the pin, used a 10K isolation resistor and a 470K pullup resistor, and tied it to pin C7, all completely off the board. I can use a different pin, but this one was the easiest one to lift and repurpose, so that's why I chose it.

RobertISaar

11-25-2016, 12:37 PM

you'll need to reconfigure that pullup... I think, unless your wideband controller sinks current rather than sourcing. also, pin 46 is B4, an address pin... http://i.imgur.com/BK8ZgZq.png

Xnke

11-27-2016, 10:15 PM

I guess it would help if i went from memory instead of second guessing myself and looking at the 68HC11E1 pin diagram instead of thinking "Oh it was that pin on the corner of the chip, wasn't that pin 60? E1's don't have sixty pins in a PLCC". Anyway, I split the case and it's 68HC11F1, PLCC, Pin 60, AN4/PE4. I also checked and the pullup is actually a pulldown. Sorry bout the confusion.

RobertISaar

11-28-2016, 04:59 AM

took a look at my patch and I see why fueling issues occurred when the boost patch is applied but the 2/3BAR bit isn't selected... I failed to re-insert some instructions that I overwrote to go do the boost VE table lookup. I could fix it, but at this point, if the boost patch is applied, why someone would run a 1BAR MAP sensor, I don't know. sounds like you have the hardware good to go as-is unless you want to throw some kind of RC low-pass filter in there. i'll have to look around for a decent place to insert the WB A/D read, it will probably get put into one of the 80Hz loops, though anything 10Hz or faster is probably sufficient for just streaming the info back to tunerpro.

Xnke

11-28-2016, 11:08 AM

The update frequency being even 10hz won't matter, for some reason I can't get datarate higher than 9Hz anyway. It's *very* choppy sometimes, average datarate is 6hz but it'll run 10-11hz, then drop to 1.5 or 1.2hz and then jump back up. I've attached a short datalog that shows what I mean well. Once I get the datarate up to a steady value, the wideband fitted, and the VSS sensor reading correctly (it's currently unhooked, as the transmission has to come out to fix a leaking core plug) then it's time to just drive and tune-the blower belt alignment couldn't be better and it fires right off every time now.

Xnke

11-28-2016, 12:18 PM

There may be a few other errors/omisisons in there...I found 5 tables in the XDF on the T-side that are called "New Table" and have no description, not sure what they are. Highway fuel AFR table won't allow anything nonzero to be entered into the 100kpA value, which would be problematic, I think. I have NO idea what to set to enable manual transmission mode, not much seems to make sense. I am still getting a lot of errors over the auto trans not being hooked up, and there are a LOT of tables concerning how to handle being clutched or not. Gonna have to take some notes from each BIN and figure it out. Hoping to have a 5-7 hours today to actually work on the running engine, we'll see what happens.

Xnke

11-29-2016, 02:07 AM

Got the engine ready for the rigors of tuning and idle control. Still need to get the exhaust finished and re-route the battery cable, I think where it is now it will get too hot and the insulation may melt in a bad way. I'll re-route it down lower and away from the header, as well as sleeve it with some thermal insulation. Coolant leaks are still present, which means I'll be dropping the transmission and replacing the freeze plug in the rear of the block on the left side, irritating but not too bad, all things considered. Must have goofed the install or something. Engine took 20 minutes to build coolant temperature, but the temperature never leveled off...a quick climb to 190F, then a slow, steady creep to 203-204F, I suspect the coolant leaks not allowing the radiator to build pressure do not help much with this. One bigger issue I think is that the two O2 sensors tend to split up and head opposite directions, the right bank O2 is generally pretty happy at 127-133 INT, however the left bank O2 rapidly pegs itself at 240 and stays there. Both sensors swing the INT around under various engine loading conditions, so I suspect both are working fine-but maybe I have them swapped left-sensor-in-right-pipe and vice-versa? Would that tend to cause the O2 sensor results to split and go opposite directions, ultimately ending up with one "good" number and one "way off" number?

brian617

11-29-2016, 02:20 AM

I suspect both are working fine-but maybe I have them swapped left-sensor-in-right-pipe and vice-versa? Would that tend to cause the O2 sensor results to split and go opposite directions, ultimately ending up with one "good" number and one "way off" number?Easy way to check is just unplug one, that's how I cheat finding bank 1 or bank 2 from manufacture to manufacture.

Xnke

11-29-2016, 05:08 AM

Ok, so I had the injector size setup as 17.50Lbs/hr and the truck would run well enough at 1600-3000RPM. Well enough to actually think about tuning it...I did nothing but multiply the 3.1L V6 map by 1.1 to adjust it for the 3.4L engine.

There are 36lb/hr injectors installed. When I changed the bin to reflect this, the truck will fire, but struggles to attempt to run and dies out. Pumping the throttle is the only way to keep it going, but I'm just bouncing it along with the accel enrichment.

I ASSUME that changing the injector size but not the VE table means the computer has pulled pulsewidth WAY down-this would make sense if the VE table is actually a VE table. Lots of tuning stuff says it's VE, but it isn't really. I have a few datalogs of the running BIN file with the wrong injector size, but the injector duty cycles are correct. Is there a way to work backwards from the known good injector duty cycle to adjust the tables?

To compensate for the injector size being correct now, the VE table needs the values pushed up by the same percentage, or is there another table/scalar that needs to be adjusted?

Tunerpro displays the MAP value at exactly half of the real value-Not sure how to edit the ADX to fix this? Or is the ECM only partially fooled by the 2-bar MAP support? Seems like there is still a lot of configuration that I need to work out in the BIN file...

Xnke

11-29-2016, 11:02 AM

Just did a compare BIN against the F-body manual configuration, and made all(?) the appropriate changes...hopefully that helps some. It did take care of a few errors that were present, but mostly just cleanup stuff.

Gotta wait till 8AM to start the truck again.

RobertISaar

11-29-2016, 09:18 PM

i'll try to get to as many of these as i can before work: I loaded up the log, you have something causing stream corruption. which ADX file are you using and what kind of interface for that matter?

the rest of your ALDL issues are kind of my fault..... i didn't create/release the modified ADX required for use with the 2/3BAR code. i placed the raw 2/3BAR MAP sensor raw a/d value into the T-side over SPI by repurposing the E-side calibration module part number, but never changed the ADX to read the new value. so, what you're seeing is the emulated 1BAR signal that is passed to the T-side, why it's only half scale, i'll have to investigate. if it's only showing up as half-scale on the T-side, it's going to be showing up that way on the e-side as well.

i would recommend not running the engine(or at least driving) at this point, you're probably getting way too much advance delivered and not nearly enough fuel either. this may be why you're having to signficantly play around with fuel delivery. and why you roughly doubled injector size and didn't have to change the injector size to get correct fueling. if you have really conservative spark settings, it may not be an issue, but it isn't correct either. i'll get back on this and run a few simulations when I get home. looks like I goofed the math somewhere and did an extra divide.

the 5 tables on the T-side with no labeling is odd, even with tables that i have no clue what their function is, i at least label them with their location.

not sure what you're seeing with the highway fuel table, I'm able to change the value anywhere in the 0-25.5 range?

manual trans stuff, there are a few items here that need addressed, as long as the couple bits and scalars are played with, it should do okay there.

the O2 sensors are acting like a FWD application(only right/rear is active), there are a few more bits that control that, it looks like even with an O2 sensor connected(try swapping connectors/circuits to see if it still happens?) to the front/left circuit, the left/front trim goes nuts(though with a FWD application, that trim is ignored).

the VE table is a VE table, but I can't make any scale work for it that makes sense. GM's choice to make it a 16-bit table and then still only use less than 2% of the table's possible resolution is baffling.

Xnke

11-29-2016, 10:32 PM

No problem. I've got another (longer) log that has NO stream corruption...until I shut the engine off mid-log and restart it. Then the corruption comes back.

I tried some stream corruption advice from the tunerpro/moates websites and none of it helped, so I put it back exactly the way it was. Now it connects but still usually has the corruption problems. Rarely (1 connection in 12) I'll get a corruption free connection.

The connection hardware is an FTDI (real FTDI) USB to pigtail interface, tied to a chinabay ALDL connector. I followed the construction article here on GearheadEFI. It's connected to 12-15 F-body and L-body ECU's via my bench flash harness. I have "A few" ecu's spare incase I break or brick one...Plus I've used Scan94/95 on several V6 Fbody's for friends. With Scan94/95 and Winflash I've had no issues with connection problems so far.

Here's the BIN, ADX, and XDF I'm using.

Xnke

11-30-2016, 12:59 AM

The highway fuel table is all fine-except the 100kpA row...it's locked at 0 for me. All the other rows work.

I've got to get the clutch switch fitted to my clutch pedal and figure out if it's active-high or active low, but I can't even find a flag/scalar/table that mentions it's use, only methods that don't require the switch such as RPM/load/MPH. Maybe it's one of the unmarked ones, I should be able to work it out.

In the meantime instead of tuning today, I started reassembling the dash and worked on getting some body panels aligned better, and took some measurements for the exhaust work. I'd like to get a muffler on it prior to boosting things...just been running with the boost bypass wide open.

Hopefully the potentially excessive spark advance (it's not too bad, really) didn't pop a headgasket and cause the water leak. Although that is the easier fix, I guess...change a headgasket or replace the freeze plug behind the flywheel while it's in the truck...either is great fun.

Xnke

12-02-2016, 07:16 AM

Still working on learning tunerpro. Lots of stuff I can't find documentation I feel like I am missing.

In other news, the exhaust fitting is going well and the wideband sensor will be right to the back of the cab, so easy to fit and unfit when needed.

Xnke

12-03-2016, 11:28 AM

Any luck working out the MAP sensor issues? I'm itchin' to drive my truck home, it'd be much easier to work on at the home shop instead of the combustion laboratory.

Xnke

12-06-2016, 03:30 AM

Exhaust is finished up to the muffler, all O2 sensors in place and all the gaskets fitted, so the exhaust is all sealed up. Airbox is fitted, now I can get the intake tube finished up, and the boost control actuator is mounted and has the full range of motion it needs.

Engine bay is pretty much finished, I have the big vacuum block connector under the dash left to plug in and need to re-route the fuel pump control wiring so I can fit the hood latch cable grommet in place.

Need to weld up a hole in the floor under the seat, and scrub the floor down to lay in the dynamatt and new carpet. After all that, it's down to reassemble the dash plastics with the new stereo and I am realizing this very second I should have changed the dash speakers out prior to installing the dash...

Xnke

12-10-2016, 08:52 PM

Just waiting on the revised engine code now.

Had any time to look at it yet, Robert?

RobertISaar

12-12-2016, 03:37 AM

finally having time to look at this, we're supposed to be in our slow season at work, but we're even busier than the summer(our typical fast season).

you have some conflict(s) in the calibration for the MAP sensor setup.

"MAP Sensor Scalar to make Normalized MAP for Boost calcs" is setup for a 3BAR sensor while the other 3 values are setup for a 2BAR. that's only in use while at/above 100kPa though.

I did notice something in the code I should have done better(and probably will), but all of my math is coming up correctly when both 1BAR MAP Emulation values are setup correctly for the sensor in use.

I changed the attached BIN to report both emulated 1BAR and raw 2/3BAR MAP values, corrected the MAP scalar value to match the 2BAR sensor and changed the 100kPa highway fuel value(didn't have an issue changing it?). the ADX you uploaded already has the capability to display raw 2/3BAR MAP values, now with the BIN change, that should actually display properly and should track right along what the 1BAR value does.

I would upload new BIN, connect with key-on engine-off and see what the raw 2/3 values and emulated 1BAR values look like. from the stream you posted, it's almost like a 1BAR sensor is being used with 2BAR settings, being able to see the raw a/d conversion that the processor is receiving should help confirm just what is happening.

i'll get the wideband, dual O2 and manual trans stuff sorted once we get this figured out.

Xnke

12-12-2016, 04:49 AM

I figured you were just busy. The only worry I have right now is getting caught in the snow with a non-running truck, and that risk gets higher the closer to January I get.

Before, with the original BIN patched with the 2/3 bar patch, key-on, engine-off I was seeing the "MAP" reported value at 50kpA, give or take a few tenths. "Barometric" reported the default value-94kpa and change-and when I changed the default value (I've got baro updates locked out for now until I can figure out where it'll be safe to do them, so they're just the default value) the 94kpa baro value changed with it.

I have a 2 bar map sensor from a 2002 GTP installed-it's the brick type with the orange Weatherpack connector. I've got three of them, and all of them gave me the same 50kpA value.

I'll make the suggested 2 bar/3 bar changes and post the BIN and ADX, and report back on the values the ECM is showing me. Hopefully getting the MAP value correct will result in the VE table being close enough to run with the injectors set up as the correct size.

Xnke

12-12-2016, 10:46 PM

OK, so I'm still seeing the same issue. I loaded the bin you posted, after checking to make sure the bin you posted had all the changes made that you said to make. Uploaded it to the PCM and connected with TunerproRT, using the same ADX.

The values for key-off, engine off are:

MAP : 10.35
Raw 2BAR MAP: 8.8
Raw 3BAR MAP: 3.6
Barometric: 10.35

The key-on, engine-off values are:

MAP: 53.53
Raw 2BAR Map: 8.8
Raw 3BAR Map: 3.6
Barometric: 53.16

some key-on, engine-trying-to-run values are:

Ran a few seconds with a lot of throttle help:

1600RPM
10.59* spark advance

MAP: 23.27
Raw 2BAR Map: 8.8
Raw 3BAR Map: 3.6
Barometric: 53.16

1400RPM

12* spark advance

MAP: 29.17
Raw 2BAR Map: 8.8
Raw 3BAR Map: 3.6
Barometric: 53.16

There are more values in the (admittedly very short) log attached.

I'm also still having the datastream corruption. Still happens about the same rate-1 in 12 connections seems clean and corruption free.

RobertISaar

12-13-2016, 08:39 PM

odd, one of the key areas of your BIN for the boost patch wasn't modified like it should have been.... i was certain that i must have not inserted those changes into the Patch item, but they already existed. i unapplied and then reapplied the patch and suddenly everything that was supposed to changed.

no other calibration changes performed. I'm not sure how a patch could have gotten half-applied?

Xnke

12-13-2016, 10:27 PM

Weird. I am gonna give this bin a shot in about an hour. Hopefully it works!

Xnke

12-14-2016, 01:55 AM

The new bin DOES make the 2 bar map sensor work properly-things are looking good there.

However, now the PCM won't connect if the engine is running or trying to run-I can start a datalog, and get 11-13hz data rate, then as soon as I crank the engine the data rate falls to 3hz or less-and then the data error rate goes up at a count of two or three per second until the engine stalls out or I shut it off. Occasionally I'll get a few good frames of data before it starts dropping out again. This ONLY happens when the engine is "running", although I can get data rate errors with just being connected to it.

I get nasty backfires and pops out the exhaust ocassionally, and have to really work the throttle to keep it from cranking-fireing-stalling, but the more I pull fuel from the main VE table the better it seems to get. Still won't run on it's own.

I didn't know if I had a 58psi regulator or a 43.5 psi regulator, so I started with the high pressure flow rate of 36lb/hr as the base pulse constant, and changed it to the lower pressure 33lb/hr base pulse constant, and that seemed to help some, so that's when i started multiplying the 0-2800RPM, 0-60kPa section of the main VE table by 0.95. Things seemed to get better, but then I noticed the datastream corruption meant I wasn't getting any data now.

Here's the current BIN and a few datalogs, hopefully they show what I mean.

Xnke

12-14-2016, 10:50 PM

I'm trying the "add a pause before resend" command tweak I found on the tunerpro forum to try and get the data rate to work properly. Hopefully it works.

Xnke

12-15-2016, 12:22 AM

Seems to work OK with a 20ms pause, even with a nearly completely flat battery. I've got some more "cleaning" to do on this laptop, as it's starting to convince me there's something going wrong with it too.

Xnke

12-16-2016, 10:11 AM

Still having connection issues. Not sure what's up with it, but it *seems* to be that the data just drops out once the engine is running...but then again it's only running a few seconds at a time, so hard to say.

Going to try keeping it going with a bit of gas siphoned in, but that's a bit sketchy on blower cars...easy way to put the blower through the hood. Next on the list of shit to try is crank with it in flood-clear mode, and make sure the timing isn't actually 73,884* advanced...which is what I'm seeing on tunerpro occasionally.

Xnke

12-17-2016, 01:51 AM

Ok. I made a few fueling changes and got the engine to run for 45 seconds to a minute at a time-and still no data. I can connect with tunerpro, to an engine that has not been started, and get a clean datalog. If I hook up spare coolant temp sensors I can make the IAT and CLT sensors move around cleanly, no glitches or bad data frames.

As soon as I start the engine the first time, the green "logging" box goes red and reads "data error" and all displayed data stalls out. After the engine inevitably stalls out, the glitchy, sporadic data comes back, the "logging" light goes green, and I get random data error messages. Apparently I can get this baby to turn 7889980988749475 ripums!

So, to check that it's not my ALDL-to-USB connector, I fired up Scan94-95 and did the same few tests. Engine fires up and runs 45 seconds to a minute, but I have to be very careful on the throttle, it's a bit rich in some spots and very lean in others so by bouncing between the two I can keep it going.

However I've noticed that while the 1X cam sensor is working, and the 24X crank sensor is working, the "engine RPM (3X)" field remains at a value of 20, regardless of the other two values.

Is it possible that I've got a kinda-dead DIS module or maybe a bad 7X crank sensor? Maybe I wired the crank sensor backwards?

I dunno if that'd cause the datastream to drop out in TunerPro, but it might explain the hard-to-make-run problem.

RobertISaar

12-17-2016, 09:41 AM

it's been a while since I've used it, but does scan94-95 give solid data?

if the 7X sensor were completely dead, you wouldn't be getting any kind of spark(from the ICM in bypass mode or EST mode). even wired backwards(which I'm not sure how you could do that, it just plugs into the ICM), I think it would still work. just in case, the yellow wire from pin A of the sensor goes to pin A of connector 3 on the ICM. purple wire of pin B(sensor) goes to pin C on connector 3 of the ICM.

there are sections in both logs that show a reasonable RPM signal(hovering in the ~1800-2400RPM area), I'm not sure why scan94-95 would only show 20RPM though, that's the "default" value when the time between 3X signals from the ICM exceeds the accumulator limit.

Xnke

12-17-2016, 09:25 PM

The 24X sensor gives good RPM data in Scan94-95, but the 3X sensor gives 20. In Tunerpro, "Engine Speed" seems to be correct, but the 24X sensor gives a fixed value usually, something like 1296RPM or something. It doesn't change like the Engine speed does.

here's a few of the latest datalogs...I don't know what to do about this anymore. Connection with Tunerpro is completely unusuable while the engine is running. I'm making blind guesses to get this to run for more than a few seconds at a time.

Xnke

12-19-2016, 02:17 AM

Just managed to brick the PCM. Was flashing it, then all the sudden the usb-to-aldl cable decided to up and disappear from the system. Great stuff, Love it when shit like that happens. Maybe the problem the whole time is a crap FTDI cable. I've about had it with FTDI, their shit has ruined the last six flash chips I've lost to programming issues.

Are the chips in these the same as the "EE" based PCMs for the LT1? If so, maybe there's hope for this one-or I can crack another one and add the wideband input.

Xnke

12-19-2016, 10:49 AM

Got the EEPROMS desoldered from the board via the destructive method-boards are in prime condition for a pair of PLCC32 sockets now. Even though I have another PCM to use, I figure if I'm going to be flashing the thing I ought to go ahead and socket at least one PCM. I've got some old ISA cards with appropriate sockets, so tomarrow is the "let's be very careful" desoldering day.

Now, the flash chips that were in my boards were not marked for speed-do I need to get 150nS units? 200nS? 100nS?

Eds

12-19-2016, 10:51 PM

Just an FYI: I don't know what your feelings are today regarding the diagnostic cable you are using and I am certainly no expert on the types of equipment available. What I do know is I have had good performance by the cables I have purchased from OBD Diagnostics, Inc. YMMVhttp://www.obdcable.com/aldl.asp

kur4o

12-19-2016, 11:29 PM

Are the chips in these the same as the "EE" based PCMs for the LT1? If so, maybe there's hope for this one-or I can crack another one and add the wideband input.

Chips are the same only a bit smaller 32kb each.You can use the old ones. If you buy new chips look for the lower latency ones. I think the intel ones on the board are 120ns.

Desoldering is real easy with the proper equipment. I`ve seen a guy do it for 5 second with some heat gun.

The chips are really easy the programm straight from the bin. Just split it in halve and programm. No funky scrambled raw bins as in ee mask.

Xnke

12-20-2016, 05:53 AM

The cable is an FYI based cable as is outlined here on the site. The issue is the FTDI drivers, they seem to simply "disappear" at random, taking the com port with them. Only seems to happen on XP, so using a different laptop may help. It appears to be related to some USB controller chip sets.

The chips on my boards are all 28f256, 256kb 120ns. I'll try to get some more anyway, I only had two more in the stash.

One method is to use a sharp knife and cut the pins off the PLCC, then desolder the pins one at a time. The other method involves a heat gun and aluminum foil.

Xnke

12-23-2016, 12:25 AM

OK, so I've got the spare PCM flashed and installed. Still have zero good data coming in to tunerpro while the engine is running, but data is fine with the engine not running.

The engine will crank, fire, run for a short amount of time, and then stall out and die. It ACTS like an antitheft system, maybe VATS is shutting down the fueling? I can help it along with the throttle but no matter how much I help it, it will always stall out in a few seconds-sometimes I can choke it along for 45 seconds or so.

Changing the fueling tables changes how it runs while it runs, but does not change the duration-it's always less than a minute no matter what. Sound like the VATS programming?

Here are my VATS settings:

VATS Frequency Limit: 0 (OE is 40)
VATS Frequency Limit: 0 (OE is 60)
VATS Fuel Disable Option: 0 (OE is 255)
VATS: unchecked (OE is checked)

I'm going to try setting the freqency limits back to 40 and 60 and see if I can get *something* to happen.

Xnke

12-23-2016, 01:26 AM

Putting the frequency limits back to 40 and 60 fixed the short-run problem.

However, the underlying problem still exists-I can connect and talk to the ECU with Tunerpro and Scan94/95 as long as the engine is NOT running-but as soon as I start the engine, now the computer shuts up and all I get is data errors or loss of sync-I can not datalog at all.

Xnke

12-23-2016, 02:23 AM

More data.

So I got to hunting for things that weren't exactly sanitary in the BIN file, and found that the Rev3 1.01 patch wasn't cleanly applied, so I unpatched and repatched, and it came up good. I guess it's the same as the boost patch wierdness that Robert found earlier-so I burned that to the PCM and gave it a shot. It now runs and will *almost* idle on it's own...I got it to idle for about 30 seconds with no throttle input and it sounds straight nasty. Major encouragement to get this thing running right!

Scan94/95 has a nice raw communications logging tool, and this is the log from the most recent attempt. I still can't get a data log from either tunerpro or scan94/95 while the engine is actually running-this might help figure out why.

This is data from a Key ON, Engine OFF state:

Time=4:57:37 PM
Engine request-->--E4570100----
Response: E4 99 01 00 00 A3 7A 56 76 F0 1D 00 04 00 00 FF FF 04 00 00 00 00 67 06 A7 80 80 01 80 80 02 27 0F 00 FF 00 1C 00 E2 50 78 76 00 0C 01 28 FF 01 00 FF F9 00 9E 00 00 00 9F 00 FF 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 08 00 8D cs=8D OK
DTC data request-->--E4570102----
Response: E4 6B 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 20 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 20 00 00 00 00 70 cs=70 OK

Time=4:57:37 PM
Engine request-->--E4570100----
Response: E4 99 01 00 00 A3 7A 56 76 F0 1D 00 04 00 00 FF FF 04 00 00 00 00 67 06 A7 80 80 01 80 80 02 27 0F 00 FF 00 1C 00 E2 50 78 76 00 0C 01 28 FF 01 00 FF F9 00 9E 00 00 00 9F 00 FF 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 08 00 8D cs=8D OK
DTC data request-->--E4570102----
Response: E4 6B 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 20 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 20 00 00 00 00 70 cs=70 OK

Time=4:57:37 PM
Engine request-->--E4570100----
Response: E4 99 01 00 00 A3 76 56 76 F0 1D 00 04 00 00 FF FF 04 00 00 00 00 67 06 A7 80 80 66 80 80 66 27 0F 00 FF 00 1C 00 E2 40 78 76 00 0C 01 28 FF 01 00 FF F9 00 9E 00 00 00 9F 00 FF 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 08 00 D8 cs=D8 OK
DTC data request-->--E4570102----
Response: E4 6B 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 20 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 20 00 00 00 00 70 cs=70 OK

And now, This is what happens when you start cranking the engine, and it does NOT start:

Time=4:57:37 PM
Engine request-->--E4570100----
Response: E4 99 01 00 00 A3 5C 56 76 F0 1C 00 04 00 00 FF FF 04 01 00 00 00 67 06 A7 80 80 01 80 0A 58 00 00 00 9E F0 56 E4 D6 0A 58 00 00 00 9E 9E 0A 58 00 00 00 9E F0 56 E4 D6 0A 58 00 00 00 9E 9E 0A 58 00 00 00 9E F0 56 cs=E3 Bad checksum!
Bad response: E4 57 01 00 C4 E4 99 01DTC data request-->--E4570102----
Response: cs=00 Bad checksum!
Bad response: E4 D6 0A 58 00 00 00 E4 57 01 02 C2 0A 58 00 00 00 9E F0 56 E4 D6 0A 58 00 01 4A 53 0A 58 00 01 4A 53 0A 58 00 00 00 9E F0 56 E4 D6 0A 58 00 00 EC B2 0A 58 00 00 EC B2 0A 58 00 00 EC B2 0A 58 00 00 00 9E F0 56 E4 D6 0A 58 00 00 00 9E 0A 58 00 00 00 9E F0 56 E4 D6 0A 58 00 00 00 9E 0A 58 00 00 00 9EShutup request----E45608AE----
Shutup request----E45608AE----
Shutup request----E45608AE----

Time=4:57:39 PM
Engine request-->--E4570100----
Response: cs=F6 Bad checksum!
Bad response: 05 5F 00 C0 00 67 5A 00 00 00 00 A3 78 E4 57 01 00 C4 0A 58 00 00 00 9E F0 56 E4 D6 0A 58 00 00 00 9E 0A 58 00 00 00 9E F0 56 E4 D6 0A 58 00 00 00 9E 0A 58 00 00 B5 E9 0A 58 00 00 B5 E9 05 5F 00 C0 00 67 59 00 00 00 00 A3 79 0A 58 00 00 B5 E9 F0 56 E4 D6 0A 58 00 00 9E 00 0A 58 00 00 9E 00 00 0A 58DTC data request-->--E4570102----
Response: cs=A8 Bad checksum!
Bad response: 00 00 00 9E F0 56 E4 D6 0A 58 00 00 00 9E E4 57 01 02 C2 0A 58 00 00 00 9E F0 56 E4 D6 0A 58 00 00 EA B4 0A 58 00 00 EA B4 0A 58 00 00 0A 58 00 00 00 9E F0 56 E4 D6 0A 58 00 00 00 9E 0A 58 00 00 D5 C9 0A 58 00 00 D5 C9 0A 58 00 00 00 9E F0 56 E4 D6 0A 58 00 00 00 9E 9E 0A 58 00 00 00 9E 0A 58 00 00Shutup request----E45608AE----
Shutup request----E45608AE----
Shutup request----E45608AE----

Time=4:57:40 PM
Engine request-->--E4570100----
Response: cs=00 OK
DTC data request-->--E4570102----
Response: cs=A8 Bad checksum!
Bad response: E4 57 01 02 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 0A 58 00 00 00 9E 9E 0A 58 00 00 00 9E F0 56 E4 D6 0A 58 00 00 00 9E F0 0A 58 00 00 00 9E 0A 58 00 00 00 9E F0 56 E4 D6 0A 58 00 00 00 9E 0A 58 00 00 00 9E 0A 58 00 00 00 9E 05 5F 00 80 00 67 7C 00 00 00 00 A6 93 0A 58 00 00Shutup request----E45608AE----
Shutup request----E45608AE----
Shutup request----E45608AE----

Time=4:57:49 PM
Engine request-->--E4570100----
Response: E4 99 01 00 00 A2 7A 54 75 F0 1D 00 04 00 00 FF FF 04 02 00 00 00 67 05 7A 80 80 92 80 80 94 27 0F 79 FF 00 1C 00 E2 50 78 73 00 0C 01 28 FF 01 00 00 F9 00 9E 00 00 00 9F 00 FF 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 08 00 23 cs=23 OK
DTC data request-->--E4570102----
Response: E4 6B 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 20 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 90 cs=90 OK

And here is a running engine:

Engine request-->--E4570100----
Response: E4 99 01 00 00 A2 78 54 75 F0 BE EF 04 00 00 FF FF 04 02 00 00 00 67 00 20 80 80 A2 80 80 A1 27 0F 00 FF 00 1C 00 E2 50 78 73 00 0C 01 28 FF 01 00 00 F9 00 9E 00 00 00 9F 00 FF 00 00 0F 00 00 00 00 00 00 08 00 61 cs=41 Bad checksum!
Bad response: E4 57 01 00 C4 E4 99 01DTC data request-->--E4570102----
Response: E4 6B 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 20 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 90 cs=90 OK

Time=4:57:53 PM
Engine request-->--E4570100----
Response: cs=54 Bad checksum!
Bad response: E4 57 01 00 C4 0A 58 00 00 00 9E F0 56 E4 D6 0A 58 00 00 00 9E 0A 58 00 00 00 9E 0A 58 00 00 00 9E F0 56 E4 D6 0A 58 00 00 00 9E 9E 0A 58 00 00 00 9E F0 56 E4 D6 0A 58 00 00 0A 58 00 00 00 9E F0 56 E4 D6 0A 58 00 00 00 0A 58 00 00 00 9E F0 56 E4 D6 D6 D6 D6 D6 D6 D6 D6 D6 D6 D6 D6 D6 D6 D6 D6 D6 D6DTC data request-->--E4570102----
Response: cs=7C Bad checksum!
Bad response: E4 57 01 02 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2Shutup request----E45608AE----
Shutup request----E45608AE----
Shutup request----E45608AE----

Time=4:58:05 PM
Engine request-->--E4570100----
Response: cs=78 Bad checksum!
Bad response: E4 57 01 00 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4 C4DTC data request-->--E4570102----
Response: cs=80 Bad checksum!
Bad response: E4 57 01 02 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 C2 0A 58 00 00 00 9E F0 56 E4 D6 0A 58 00 00 00 9E 0A 58 00 00 00 9E 0A 58 00 00 00 9E 05 5F 00 80 00 67Shutup request----E45608AE----
Shutup request----E45608AE----
Shutup request----E45608AE----

Time=4:58:20 PM
Engine request-->--E4570100----
Response: E4 99 01 00 00 9F 00 58 28 F0 1D 00 04 00 00 FF FF 40 03 00 00 00 90 05 C4 80 80 00 80 80 00 69 0F 00 FF 00 1C 00 E2 4C 74 18 00 0C 01 28 E0 01 00 00 F9 00 9E 00 00 00 9F 00 FF 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 08 00 18 cs=18 OK
DTC data request-->--E4570102----
Response: E4 6B 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 20 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 90 cs=90 OK

Xnke

12-24-2016, 12:26 PM

looking back through the threads, I might have to look and see if I have a power problem-The original "won't talk" problem was caused by not getting enough power to the PCM, so maybe I've just got a shit battery/loose wire somewhere?

kur4o

12-24-2016, 06:21 PM

There is definitely some noise interference when the engine is runnig. Maybe the PCM grounds are not good, or some other wiring. The PCM should get only grounds through the wires and should be isolated from chasis. Interesting only data for 01 message is corrupt the broadcast messages that follow immediately are good. May be related to patch in some way.

Causes could be, patch, baud rate problems at ftdi chip due to noise.
Or some wiring problems.

I should look first at aldl cable first, than wiring and grounds.

What model aldl cable are you using. I ve seen some ftdi chips that just dont work, or work sometimes.

Xnke

12-24-2016, 09:34 PM

It's a homemade one, based off the tutorial here. It's worked fine in other cars, and works fine to flash the PCM, and it works fine as long as the engine isn't running. I think I might have a grounding issue or something somewhere, I'll check it out today.

RobertISaar

12-25-2016, 10:14 AM

the 24X sensor value should stop updating after the PCM starts to ignore it(~1250RPM for a FWD calibration and I think 2000ish for RWD). why GM chose to split those RPM thresholds, I don't know.

I've had some FTDI boards act funny before, but it usually takes some abuse before that happens. my ALDLCable.com version lasted about a year before it started getting wonky, then I built my own. unfortunately, due to the 8192 baud speed, options are somewhat limited. the CP2102 can be made to work, but I can't really say if it's any better. at this point, my USB ports themselves are getting kind of worn out and contributing to me shallow breathing during a flash.

with a 2.1MHz clock speed, even a 250nS PROM is going to be more than fast enough for a nearly 500nS cycle. stock PROMs should be 120nS though.

the hell is it with the patch function lately? I've never seen it do that before, let alone twice with one BIN. i'll have to see if Mark can replicate it and verify it as an actual bug rather than us screwing something up.

the data given out after a crank attempt looks like typical mode 0 data(trip computer and some digital dash stuff). then for engine running, the "response" literally filling up the data queue with repeating values is certainly something else causing interference, but being that repeatable is odd, I would expect some dithering of the signal.

Xnke

01-03-2017, 03:56 AM

It has got to be something to do the truck wiring. I cant find any serious noise, the ICM tests fine, the alternator tests fine, the best battery tests fine, but no dice.

Going to go through all the grounds and all the supply lines again, and see if I have a loose ground or something. I started down that road and had to stop due to the rain.

Xnke

01-08-2017, 09:27 AM

Ok, so the truck runs continuously now-but it's so super rich it chokes out. No big deal, just flash an update tune...Nope. Bricked another PCM.

Turns out it's my laptop's USB ports that are the issue. They're flaking out left and right.

So, I've got a TL866 programmer, and MicroPro. I've got a BIN file that I'd like to flash to the two chips. How do I go about splitting the file and programming it? Apparently this is going to be a regular thing for a bit...

I've got another laptop that I'll set up to run tonight. It's so close to being drivable! If I can get it leaned out enough to idle and datalog, it'll be a quick job to tune it up, just gotta get this flash programming under control.

Xnke

01-08-2017, 09:42 AM

So, programming the chips, no problem. How to split the bin, AND, which chip goes where...there's the issue.

RobertISaar

01-08-2017, 11:02 AM

splitting the BIN is easy, I just use tunerpro. with tunerpro open, press F5(or go through menus for Tools->BIN stacker/splitter), put into split mode via radio button, select path for the BIN you want split, set BIN size and block size to 32KB with chip size of 64KB. "browse" for a save location for positions 0 and 1(0 should be E-side, 1 should be T-side), press split and you should have 2 32KB BIN files wherever you set it up to save.

as for which BIN does which half: see the knock filter? that's the e-side.

Xnke

01-08-2017, 11:41 AM

Awesome. Tomarrow I have to go clean up the lab-it's a wreck. John will not be happy....

I also have to figure out a new laptop situation, as I'm not going to continue trying to work with a laptop that can't keep the USB ports going. The FTDI cable fails to start 9 times out of 10 or more, but plugging the cable into an alternate laptop has it working every single time. The issue seems to be with my laptop, not the cable.

Xnke

01-12-2017, 01:16 AM

So it doesn't seem to matter at all what cable, what computer, which PCM, or if it's in the truck or on the bench harness-I can not talk to ANY PCM anymore.

I don't even know where to start now-it won't talk to any of the four P66 units, nor the 8062 that I pulled out of the truck. NONE of them talk with either the original FTDI adaptor, a modified Prolific adaptor, OR the new shiny CP2102 adaptor I built from Silabs parts. All of them will do 8192 baud, (yes, the prolific will work but it takes a registry entry) and the CP2102 can *actually* talk at 8192...not just "close'nuff", like the FTDI and Prolific parts.

I've used three computers: My desktop, which is what I initially got things going with, my laptop, which worked for a while, but then I thought was dying, and a borrowed laptop. I've used three cables, outlined above. I've used five different PCMs. I've powered the four P66 computers from both the bench supply, and the actual truck harness.

What can I do to get these things talking again???

All the cable/computer/PCM combinations show exactly the same symptoms. I get DIC data coming in, I can see it on the CP2102's Tx/Rx LED indicators and on the scope. I can't *read* the DIC data in anything. All I get is constant checksum errors, strings of C0 or C2 or C4 and bad checksum errors, any time I try to connect.

Xnke

01-12-2017, 02:31 AM

OK. I've now got Scan94/95 working on one of the PCMs, in the test harness. Tunerpro flat doesn't work, Winflash doesn't work and claims "Invalid response from PCM" when trying to connect to it, even when Scan94/95 works fine.

This is with the same cable that bricked two other pcm's and wouldn't talk to anything else, so I'm hesitant to use it to flash anything.

Here's the odd part: This is a PCM for a 95 Oldsmobile Achieva (N body). Service Number is 16196397, part number is 16218404, BPJK. This one isn't in your list of BINs, Robert, so if I can ever manage to get a read from it I'll post it up here for you.

Xnke

01-12-2017, 03:07 AM

Some miracle has changed-I got the Winflash software to talk to the PCM and retrieve the bin. 10 times in a row, no less.

I am wondering if it's related to the PCM voltage. I am going to try tunerpro next, and then try various voltages and see if I have a problem somewhere along those lines. Pretty sure I don't, but at this point it's got to be SOMETHING.

Anyway, this is the stock bin for the 95 Achieva 3.1L V6, 16218404, BPJK

Xnke

01-14-2017, 01:24 AM

OK, so now I have blindly stumbled into a mostly OK tune. It will not idle or return to idle, but that's mostly the incredible blower surge...rummmmp, rummmmp, rummmmp, foot off the pedal and it stalls.

Not a computer on earth that'll suppress a blower surge out of the box.

Maybe there is a bit of idle valve tuning I can do to command a fixed idle valve position?

EDIT:

Thinking out of my ass up there. Blower surge is a lean/rich alternating condition, not an idle control issue...Also, the ridiculously powerful surging rubbed the hood in just the right spot to show me where to clearance it some more.

Anyway, the conditions are currently:

Will not sustain idle without help-needs a tiny amount of throttle to attempt an idle. Without this, will choke out. Too rich.

With small amount of throttle, will idle-the surging lean-rich-lean-rich-lean-rich condition hunts for air, not fuel. If I give it more throttle, and thus more air, even a tiny bit-it evens out an runs acceptably, at 1200-1400RPM. I haven't tried a mode-4 command yet because I'm still on the hunt for the ECU killing issue.

I haven't tried any revs over 2500-3000RPM yet, mainly due to not having the wideband fitted to the collector pipe yet. I also don't have any datalogging going, due to the ECU-killer...so it looks like some educated guesses for the idle issue, and then start hunting the voltage problem that is messing with the datastream. (and replace the dying laptop, it's time I got a new one anyway...this one is only a first-gen "Centrino")

RobertISaar

01-14-2017, 10:18 AM

the IAC position when in IAC-open loop is controlled via a few tables that could be messed with, but they're not in effect with a closed throttle other than cranking, immediately post-cranking and after immediately throttle closure until the closed-loop IAC control kicks in to maintain target idle speed.

it's not necessarily the greatest workaround, but moving the commanded idle speed tables around to get into the 1200 range SHOULD allow you to keep your foot off the throttle long enough and give attention elsewhere until you can get the fueling and spark roughed in. then you should be able to lower the idle to whatever speed you're looking for, or at least play with the IAC control settings to get it to react the way it needs to.

Xnke

01-14-2017, 10:27 AM

Getting the fuel and spark roughed in off-idle is no big thing-it's already very close in the N/A form. (Still haven't got the boost control acutator fitted) Right now, this is just a moderately strangled N/A engine...

But, it's important to tune the bypassed mode of the super because you never know when you'll have a failure and need to rely on the non-boosted engine. Also, the super is bypassed at light load to about 2800RPM, anyway.

Fueling under boost is "rich safe" at the moment...probably Scrooge McDuck rich.

If I can get idle and off-idle to behave, the rest comes very quickly. AND it helps to avoid a lot of pitfalls that come from trying to tune mid-range and high-speed first-namely making timing adjustments and wide swath fueling adjustments that have to be undone once you get back to idle-lots of interlaced tables and all to screw up.

Tomarrow is a free ride to the parts yard, so hopefully I'll pull a few trim panels, some wiring harness bits, and maybe if I'm lucky an evaporator temperature sensor and control box.

I ran into the issue of patched/unpatched code again today-the code I pulled from the truck came up as "indeterminate" again for the Rev3v1.01 patch, even though I've patched it right before I sent it and it claimed it was clean. I wonder if it's not getting mangled "in the box"?

RobertISaar

01-14-2017, 09:11 PM

I'm baffled as to how sections of the patches are being undone. do you have a copy of the BIN where it was unset again, I'm curious to see if there is a pattern as to what is getting unset.

the BIN as read out of the PCM should be identical to what is being sent... it's not like the LT1 where some of the BIN area is actually occupied by RAM/registers.

Xnke

01-15-2017, 12:47 AM

I don't have a copy at the moment-it'll happen again I'm sure.

I've ordered another FTDI 5v TTL cable and a new laptop. This insanity should stop soon enough...one way or another.

I pulled the flash chips off the boards to fit sockets on the bricked ECM's, and the flash chips for the E-side are no good anymore. They all have the first bit (address 0x0000) stuck at "0x80", and will not erase or flash to a different value.

I've got more flash chips coming so those ECM's will get repaired. Do you want a socketed ECM for code development, Robert?

Xnke

01-15-2017, 01:07 AM

And it won't connect again. It's as if it's not even connected to anything-but the ECM hasn't even been turned off since the last successful attempt. The PC hasn't been turned off. The setup hasn't been disturbed at all.

Same C0, or C2, or C4 data being sent over and over and over. Same checksum errors. There's no point in trying to troubleshoot this if there isn't a consistant problem.

Xnke

01-15-2017, 02:23 AM

Looks like it's time to give up on the FTDI stuff. I pulled out the Silabs CP2102 3.3 volt adaptor and built a 3.3 to 5v level converter for it, and it's now the only thing I'll use...because while it does not work out of the box, once configured, it will generate a *real* 8191 baud signal...not 8192, but far closer than anything else I've found/researched.

The Silabs chips work flawlessly on the bench so far, with both surviving ECM's (still waiting on enough chips to fix the others) and it works with my laptop as well. Bad cable, lots of conflicting issues...but now the new cable, while ugly, does work.

However, Tunerpro is still flickering data like mad-Scan94/95 datalogs are clean and have very little to no noise. Tunerpro logs are even worse now than they were before, but no data errors now. 4-5hz update rate, but so far, random garbage data. I'm going to see if it persists in the truck as well.

Xnke

01-15-2017, 09:52 AM

Here's a video of what happens when I try to get a datalog. I can flash a bin, read a bin, get data, send data, but I can not get "live data" or any kind of running data.

Not sure why.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Fl6vuO6qLj4

Xnke

01-15-2017, 02:03 PM

Robert, I may have some bad news.

Removing the 2 bar patch code lets the engine run, instead of sputter and surge. I pulled the 1 bar map sensor off the truck I drove to the shop, cobbled an adaptor, and hooked it up with a 1 bar sensor. Unpatched the code, copied the stock 3.1L tables into the tune and multiplied by 1.1, so as to eliminate my tuning efforts, and fired the engine up to a steady, smooth idle and nice throttle response. At this point I called it a night and came home.

Clearly, this was all with the supercharger in bypass mode, so no boost. I'll do some more testing when I wake up, I've got a spare 1bar sensor here.

The plan for when I wake up:

-re-fit 1 bar sensor, and start engine with unpatched code. It should run.

-Patch code, and deselect 2/3 bar support, set the scalars to 1 bar settings. Find out if this runs exactly like stock (it should, I would think)

I'll report back with what happens.

Xnke

01-16-2017, 09:00 AM

Xnke

01-17-2017, 03:48 AM

here's a datalog from today-Notice what i noticed after going through all the wiring again?

Check out the Ignition Voltage...At 8.5 volts on the bench, comms drop out and the same thing happens-but with a stock bin and 1 bar sensor, the engine snaps up and runs good enough to get the alternator going-and the voltage comes back up, I guess.

Time to look at my supply lines and battery again, I guess!

RobertISaar

01-21-2017, 06:54 PM

Doesn't work with the 1 bar sensor, once patched-but I think that was suspected behavior? I'm still not ready to suspect the patched code, but I'm running out of leads to chase down.

Anyway, I'm going through the wiring harness with a fine-toothed comb, getting every input/output functioning as best I can figure it should, and improving the grounding anywhere possible. I am hoping to get a magic ground system that makes the communication link while running start working...from there it should be trivial to fix whatever problem I'm having. Lots of time crammed up under the dash with meter probes and wiring charts...

not working with a 1BAR while the 2/3BAR patch is present is expected, I didn't find that code error for quite some time and haven't fixed it out of not expecting the scenario to be used.

once solid communications can be established, it will help considerably, but I'm not sure where something would go wrong considering I nearly just ported the exact same boost code that works perfectly from my nAst1 project. when we can see what kind of advance and pulsewidth is being commanded, it may clue in what's going on.

here's a datalog from today-Notice what i noticed after going through all the wiring again?

Check out the Ignition Voltage...At 8.5 volts on the bench, comms drop out and the same thing happens-but with a stock bin and 1 bar sensor, the engine snaps up and runs good enough to get the alternator going-and the voltage comes back up, I guess.

Time to look at my supply lines and battery again, I guess!

at 8.5 volts, I'd be amazed if any of the relays weren't about to start opening up/chattering. that's if you're actually seeing 8.5 and something isn't causing the PCM to see that(weak circuit).

Xnke

01-22-2017, 07:16 AM

I haven't had any kind of luck hunting down the voltage drop issue-I am about to stuff a 22,000uF capacitor filter across the switched power and another across the battery power and hope that's enough to limit the voltage drop during cranking.

I'll have the wideband in the pipe tomarrow, and should be able to get some fuel table feedback to try and get the PCM to at least attempt to control fueling-it's still Scrooge Mcduck rich, immediately after it fires.

It's really, really strange-it will start and run for a few seconds every single time-with absolutely no regard to temperature or weather, just like a factory truck. But after the initial crankup and first firing, it immediately struggles to not drown in fuel. I'm hoping by leaning out the main and idle VE tables some, I can at least get it to run long enough to get the alternator on board, and hopefully that will cure the voltage issue.

The odd thing is that the relays aren't chattering and nothing else seems to have an issue with the voltage-just the PCM. And it does it will all four functional PCM's I've got-I managed to rescue the dead ones.

Terminal_Crazy

01-22-2017, 12:15 PM

Xnke

01-23-2017, 01:16 AM

It does make a difference, but opening up the throttle a bit gets it into a surging, lopside chug that belches raw fuel out the exhaust as vapor-you can literally light the exhaust on fire with a lighter. BIG boom after it's "idled" a minute! Opening the throttle too much causes a rapid RPM surge then it stalls out lean. Never does foul out the plugs-just soaks them in fuel. Gotta hand it to the GM DIS coil packs-they're blasting away like a champ.

I have some time this evening, so I plan to go back out to the combustion lab and see what I can do as far as getting the idle straightened out and try the capacitor trick-it may be something as simple as trying to pull switched power from the wrong place, too, so who knows what I'll end up having to do to fix it yet.

Xnke

01-25-2017, 01:16 AM

Found a bad relay contact in the switched ignition line-was dropping 2.5V across the contact. This made a significant difference, but still hasn't fixed the massive amount of data corruption on the ALDL line-but at least it's talking now.

Xnke

01-25-2017, 04:22 AM

So I've made another terrible video for Youtube, to try and explain better what's happening here. I still don't have a clue what's going on, maybe VATS is killing it, maybe it's super rich, I can't tell.

The wideband shows 13-14 AFR's when it starts, but when it would normally shift to the running table, I can't tell what happens because the engine either stalls out and dies, or I have to pedal the crap out of it to try to keep it running. The datastream is wigging out the whole time too, at least I have a datastream. Unfortunately, I haven't kept it running long enough to accurately measure the *running* PCM voltage. I still don't think it's an issue, though, because swapping to unpatched stock code and a 1 bar sensor lets the truck idle and free-rev OK, as long as I've changed the injector flow constant and the blower is bypassed.

Fixing the voltage issue did solve the super-rich chugging issue where it would fill the whole lab with fuel vapor, though! Gotta take a win where I can get one.

RobertISaar

01-25-2017, 08:20 PM

i can't make any sense of the datastream issues..... I've seen vehicles have issues before with this PCM, but they were solved with a single tweak to the ADX. is it still freaking out if you use scan9495?

Xnke

01-26-2017, 02:38 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrXrMEQDgTU&feature=youtu.be

There's a video of last night's work-I am building a little VATS module to test and see if that's the issue. Who knows, it's ten minutes to get one going.

Possibly another update tonight.

brian617

01-26-2017, 08:58 PM

I am building a little VATS module to test and see if that's the issue.Vats typically disables the fuel pump, how about monitoring fuel pump voltage/amperage to diagnose?

Xnke

01-26-2017, 11:28 PM

VATS on the 94/95 camaros had a starter interlock and disabled the fuel injectors-not the fuel pump. Really, it's Passkey-II, not VATS.

I don't have the starter interlock relay, as the S-10 doesn't have one-so VATS can't lock me out of the starter. It could be shutting off the injectors, though. I don't really think that's the problem but it's easy and free for me to build the module to check it, so I'm going to check.

Gotta run down one thing at a time, so far I've got the voltage issue fixed, still don't have good data on the datastream, possible VATS shutting me down, could just be the tune is that far off.

Like I said, with a 1 bar MAP sensor installed and the stock tune, if I set the VATS scalar to 0 and the fuel injector constant to the correct 36lbs, the truck will fire up and idle. I've copied that table into the 2-bar patched code, but no dice so far.

Even with the 1 bar map/tune in the ECU, I still get the terrible datastream. Of all the datalogging I've done, I have one single 2 minute datalog of clean data-and that was with partially-patched code!

EDIT: I wonder if the oil level/pressure stuff is cutting it off?? The PCM has monitors for oil level and oil pressure, but I don't have wiring diagrams for these two sensors-The oil pressure sending unit is the camaro unit and is wired properly for the camaro PCM-I didn't rewire it at all. The oil level sensor isn't present on the truck and I don't remember what I did with those wires...that might be it, but it wouldn't explain why it runs fine with the 1-bar sensor.

I'm pretty much logic'ing myself into a tune-related problem, instead of a wiring issue-but then that doesn't explain the datastream freaking out like it is. Like I said above-one thing at a time.

RobertISaar

01-27-2017, 01:26 AM

PCM doesn't monitor oil pressure, but it can monitor oil level(if the option is selected), but it doesn't modify run characteristics at all, only lights up the dash indicator. the way it operates is odd too, it waits for the engine to shut off, then if the oil level switch doesn't go from "low" to "not low" in a certain amount of time, it decides the oil level is low and lights up the indicator for the next start-up. if you're parked on an incline, you'll almost always get the light unless you have a very non-stock oil pan or are very overfilled on oil level.

Xnke

01-28-2017, 04:10 AM

OK, Progress!

I scrapped the whole BIN file we've been fighting with, and started with the 1994 F body Manual revision 3 bin, from your archive Robert.

Stock, unpatched, untouched. Just burned it to the PCM. And the truck started, but was very lean and didn't run. BUT, I had full communication in both Scan94/95 and Tunerpro, withPASSKEY-II error.

Next, I edited the fuel injector size and configured it for 36lb injectors. Flashed it, started the truck, and full communication-and it kinda-sorta ran. PASSKEY-II error.

Hooked up the PASSKEY-II emulation brick I built. Fired it up again, still had good comminucation, and the PASSKEY-II error was gone. Still kinda-sorta ran.

Next, the Revision 3.01 patch. Still had good communication, still only kinda sorta ran.

Next, I killed off PASSKEY-II. Still good communication, still only kinda sorta ran.

Next, the Boost Patch. Unconfigured, I did nothing but patch the code and flash it. Still good communication, still barely runs without help.

Next, I configured the patch scalars-but I did NOT configure the flag to set the patch active. Still good communication, still barely runs without help. I knew I would be fairly safe running as no boost could happen and I broke the engine in this way and it ran for 30 minutes with reasonable timing and fueling-a little retarted on the timing and a little rich on the fueling, but it ran fine with a bit of throttle help.

Next, I set the patch active. The truck still runs with a bit of throttle help to keep it going, and still communicates with Tunerpro-no big data error problems but only 3hz or so. And then I go back and look at the logs...Yeah, something is seriously wrong. A few examples...

Engine speed, 58.00 RPM. Actual somewhere around 1200.
Vehicle speed 130 ??? Sitting still, parking brake on, in neutral.
Spark advance? A cool 24201 degrees...plus or minus a thousand.

So, now that I have good data communication with no errors, albeit at a low data rate, I have completely bonkers data. I've attached the relevant information below-I am so hoping this is ADX related and I can start tuning soon!

RobertISaar

01-29-2017, 01:39 AM

was data rate and sanity good right up until activating the boost patch? data rate should be close to 9Hz or so if you're not overloading your processor. if I open anything more than just the item list view while recording a log(especially a complex dash or monitor view), my data rate will drop right along with it and CPU usage rises considerably.

Xnke

01-29-2017, 03:39 AM

Data rate was about the same-but I've had 9-11hz before, just with errors.

As far as the sanity of the data goes, I'll have to go back and look to see exactly where it goes nutso. I'll report back in a few minutes.

Looks like the data is insane all the time. All the datalogs from the testing show the same kind of wacked out spark advance and RPM, but MAP values are good, temperature values seem OK, etc.

RobertISaar

01-29-2017, 10:29 AM

if certain values are consistently reasonable and others aren't, that's already odd... and only a 3Hz rate?

do you have any other GM OBD1 ECMs lying around by chance?

Xnke

01-29-2017, 12:59 PM

I have an 84 S-10, iron duke and TBI that I drive every day-but I don't know if it's an 8062 or a 7165. With the dash in the shape it's in, I'd just have to try connecting with each set of files and see what came up. Too much risk in the whole dash just collapsing if I were to start pulling it apart to get at the ECM.

I do have the 8062 and leftover harness bits from the truck, too. I can't really twiddle inputs too much with it, so I can't simulate a running engine. However, I could probably connect to it.

RobertISaar

01-29-2017, 09:39 PM

I was hoping you had one of the 8192 baud units that were dead-simple to establish good communications with.

Xnke

01-30-2017, 12:29 AM

I used to get 9-11hz data rates, but that was with the FTDI adaptor that quit working.

I am going to download the ADX again and ditch the one I've been using, maybe I screwed it up somehow.

Xnke

02-07-2017, 12:28 AM

Ok. Back from a short vacation, and I replaced the ADX I had been using with a fresh copy from your Dropbox, Robert.

This is a datalog of the new data errors. I have an inclination to suspect perhaps the battery in the truck isn't very good now-as after two cranks and a short run, the battery was down far enough to not allow it to crank again. I've got it on charge now, however in the past it hasn't made any difference to the datastream.

data rates tend to be 4-6hz, however some of that may be due to adaptor settings. I am going to play with those settings to see what I can get while the battery charges.

Xnke

02-09-2017, 12:33 AM

SUCCESS!

Well, partially. IF I unplug the TPS from the wiring harness, I get perfectly clean data. If I plug it in, I get bad data, regardless of BIN file, patches, no patches, bad configurations, good configurations-It all comes down to the TPS.

I think I have a spare one, but even at that they're cheap to replace. I'll report back with data logs shortly.

EDIT:

Using the factory 94 manual F-body bin file, with VATS disabled as the only modification, the engine gives clean data with the TPS unplugged. When I patch the bin, it only gives clean data while off, or cranking-once the engine runs on its own it freaks out again.

I'm going to go through the wiring harness again, hunting for +5V sensor line issuses or sensor grounding issues next.

Xnke

02-09-2017, 02:42 AM

Well, now I've got zero luck in Tunerpro. No data is good, it all is jumpy, ridiculous values, just junk. I've tried using the old ADX I started with, and a new, unmodified, unedited virgin copy of the ADX from Robert, and the results are the same.

Gonna have to get that fixed, but I've ruled out a few things. It's GOT to be Tunerpro-as I get clean, no-problem datalogs with Scan94/95. Clean enough to let me tune the stock BIN to let the engine idle and rev cleanly.

Loading a no-vats stock BIN for the 94 manual F-body allows the engine to run, idle, and rev cleanly-with the 2 bar sensor installed on 1 bar code, and the 17.50lb/hr injector setting. I do not have to help it along at all, anymore-just a bit of screwdriver tuning to open the throttle slightly more than stock allows the idle control to cleanly control the idle at 800, 1000, 1200, or 1600RPM. I am seeing the camshaft signal loss error occasionally, but I don't know if it's really a problem yet or not. Spark advance is cleanly and accurately calculated and displayed, and matches the timing light perfectly.

Using Scan94/95, as I said, no datalog errors, all datapoints (including TPS when it's hooked up!), are smooth, clean, and reasonable data. Tunerpro, using the same BIN file, just displays garbage. When I unplugged the TPS, it worked two or three times, but then it went right back to garbage data.

Now, encouraged by this I patched the no-vats bin with the Boost patch, and set the injector size to 36lb/hr. Engine runs very rough, very over-rich (sub-9's) and Scan94/95 still displays decent data-but the MAP and Baro signals are static at 98kpa. They never move, never change. I have to pump the throttle to keep the engine running, or it chokes out, but the MAP data never moves.

In Tunerpro, I just get the wild data, nothing at all makes sense.

I multiplied Idle VE by 85% to try and pull fuel, and it did pull some-so I pulled the same from the Main VE table, and it helped more-but still 9s and 10s for AFR. Still no MAP data in Scan94/95, but everything else is working.

Any ideas?

Xnke

02-10-2017, 01:29 AM

Ok. Still having good luck in Scan94/95 as far as data, but tunerpro is only very slightly better. Here's a look at what normally happens, as well as the one in a million shot of it *actually* working-I was suprised!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?edit=vd&v=2k2wm2K4mc0

Xnke

02-11-2017, 10:53 AM

Spent several hours today working on this. Got logs and ADX/XDF/BIN/XDL off to Mark Mansur to see if it's a bug or a feature.

All day today, perfectly clean logs on first connection, but after a few connections and key-on-key-off cycles, the random data comes back. It's good enough to work around the random data, at this point.

A much more significant issue is that with the 2-bar patch in place, the MAP sensor no longer updates. It remains at the value that it starts at with the key-on, engine-off state right before cranking. Disconnecting the MAP sensor connector and substituting a potentiometer allows me to set any value of MAP I like, but it doesn't update until the engine cranks, then once the engine is cranked and starts the value never updates again until the engine stalls out. I have not modified the baro updates in this particular bin yet, but it looks like the ECM grabs a baro update on cranking and then never updates again until the engine stalls out.

Pretty much all the other data is fine-even the random error codes and DTC's don't set anymore. That's even more worrying as I have done nothing to fix them...they just fixed themselves. Meaning they can come back at any time and I STILL don't know what causes them...argh!

At this point, I can sub in a 1 bar sensor and drive the truck pretty nicely, and the 1 bar sensor and 1 bar code works exactly as you would expect it to. Not sure if it's an ADX issue or a code patch issue, so in the morning I will patch another stock bin, modify the bin for 2 bar sensor and no vats, and see if the patch function mangled the bin again-however the patch function claims this one is still good, unlike the past issue where it was pretty clear when it failed to patch.

More data in a few hours.