1993 Corsica 2.2 liter Stalling when cold

[historystamp]

1993 Corsica 2.2 liter (VIN 4) LN2 carline with 130000 miles.


I Have A Corsica That Stalls When The Engine Is Cold. Looked For Broken Vacuum Hoses. That Turned Up Nothing. Once the engine has warmed up, after about 15 minutes, the car runs okay.


My friend replaced the coolant temperature sensor. Unfortunatley, that did not solve the problem. He has since put back the original sensor.


I and a friend are working on this problem. He also replaced the IAT and the MAP sensors and checked for vacuum leaks, again. None of these fixes helped.


So, let me describe the problem again. The car starts okay and when the engine is cold it idles rough. This is while it sits in the driveway. When I press on the gas in the driveway soon after engine start, the engine does not rev up. It hesitates for about 5 seconds then it revs up ( This symptom has mostly gone away ). If I'm driving down the road with a cold engine, this is a problem. When I slow down and then speed up, the car behaves like its almost going to stall. See first and second speed bump.


So, can you make other suggestions on what may be wrong with the car?
It's a 1993 2.2 liter (VIN 4) LN2 carline PFI 4 manual trans. A167.ds




The log contains a O2 warning. For the first time, I got the check engine light to go on. Was driving down interstate. Light lasted 15 seconds. Was about 10 minutes from start of car. Engine was warm before start. The error occurred before the start of this log.


Here is the log:
started car. revved engine several time. very minor hesitation once.
rolled in reverse down to street


6:04 ok Put in 1st gear to go forward
6:14 stalled just past the end of driveway


7:01 restarted
8:04 sniffling???
8:42 first bump Tends to nearly stall or almost stall at this point
9:26 second bump Tends to be a problem too
9:46 Stop sign to secondary road turned right


drove around my subdivision


17:00 possible speed bump


18:00 driving on a four lane road at 40 mph. noticed that loop had closed.

Robert

Happy Holidays

[EagleMark]

First your battery is no good, it's only 11.80 to 11.30 when car is not running, altenator is working because it goes up to 14.2 ish when running. Notice when you start yor battery voltage goes to 0 and data from ECM even stops then starts as voltage increases. Look at 0:18 and 6:59 in log. This is probably your start up running issue. Everytime you start you go to 0 voltage and clear any learn memory ECM had... ECM needs good voltage all the time.

Then you are in open loop way to long at start up while warming up, even when loop status goes "Ready" your still in open loop forever, BLM 128. Look at 3:19 loop status ready 90 degrees engine temp still open loop? Plus your O2 readings are off all over even in closed loop, not normal O2 Cross Counts, does bottom out when decelerating during DFCO like it should, you may have a bad O2 sensor. Look at BLM when finally went closed loop at 8 minutes, goes to 146 and stays there warmed up driving, it's always 146 (lean) even though INT is changing, BLM never moves, with other issues may be bad O2? Or bad ECM?

You have a code 44 set O2 lean so check fuel pressure and replace fuel filter. HTH!

[historystamp]

Thanks a bundle EagleMark.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7144/6644476339_80cf771e62_m.jpg

I wish you all the best with the coming of the New Year.

My friend who helps me with car repairs is coming over today. We will have a lot to discuss. The battery is old. Lasted longer than most of the batteries that I have had in my car life.

Robert

[historystamp]

Replaced the battery with a Sears Dia-Hard. I like the name. With winter upon me, I thought it best to have a fresh battery. Still near stalling when cold. Will replace O2 sensor tomorrow, I hope.

----------------------------------------------

I am wonder about the IAC. The definition i found on IAC states:
IAC - Idle Air Control - (a controlled vacuum leak) A stepper motor controlled by the ECM. It determines how much air gets through to the engine when the throttle is at idle. The ECM controls it to maintain a programmed idle speed.

When I look at the monitor, the IAC is being adjusted all the time. Even when the loop is closed. The definition is a little misleading. My friend is wondering about the IAC being bad.

toddah mentioned a problem with his EGR. I am wondering about mine. Don't seem to have the info in my log. The egr info I have is in brown in the bottom graph.

( Picture were moved to a post below. )

[EagleMark]

IAc should change all the time, it controls idle... yes it could also be bad or plugged...

[historystamp]

IAc should change all the time, it controls idle...

I guess I do not understand what is the meaning of idle. I'd associated it with the car idling at a stop light.

I'm a beginner when it comes to working on cars.

Robert

[EagleMark]

Yes, Idle, when your not accelerating, when your foot is off the go pedal you are idling. The IAC is Idle Air Control and the reading you see is counts. It moves to let in more air or less air to keep engine at RPM set in ECM for Idle.

Are two people using your username? Sometimes questions are so far apart? It may just be me...

[historystamp]

Are two people using your username? Sometimes questions are so far apart?

No, just me. I do not have a background in car repair, but of computer programming. I have a friend helping me with the car repair. He as another account: GMdriver.

Messing around with the ECM is like messing around with computers. I guess since it is a computer.


Yes, Idle, when your not accelerating, when your foot is off the go pedal you are idling.

That makes since. I hadn't realized you were idling so much. I thought idle was when you were stopped. Now, I know different.

I found a difference in the graphs when my car stalled at the end of the driveway [ 6:02 ] & when the car was running down the road at 40mph [ 18:02 ]. Look at the length of the egr uptick vs. %tps. The egr in brown where smaller at the end of the drive way compared to %tps (gas peddle, is in red on "graph"). Egr at 40 extends to the time I left my foot off the gas peddle. Doesn't at the end of the driveway.

stalled at the end of the driveway

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7142/6643258013_3f4ccc21d2.jpg

Down the road at 40mph.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7018/6643258261_0e4efbede2.jpg

[EagleMark]

OK That expalins the change of knowledge from time to time! I thought I was loosing it?

Your computer skills are lacking in the picture upload... all I see are red x's... your not trying to upload a .bmp are you? Need a gif or any of the jpg types.

[historystamp]

Your not seeing pictures in the last post?

I'll edit the post & try flickr.

Robert

[historystamp]

Best to avoid anything that could give Windows a heart attack.

I think I succeed in getting my images in this tread. Its been a real challenge for an old computer guy. I best you flickr to store my images until I fugure what is going on.



I did discover something interesting. When you are in edit, click once or twice on the thumbnail. A panel will appear. Fill out appropriately. Maybe it will work better for you.

Robert

[historystamp]

Ok, I think I have fixed up my picture in this thread.

Robert

[EagleMark]

Yup pictures show! :thumbsup:

But I can.t see them good enough to diagnose or answer question, actually what is question? :laugh:

I've got time, post the log and remind me you mask adx and xdf I know I have them and looked at your logs before. Then we can look at detail to see what's happeneing and causing the stalling.

[historystamp]

Ok. Here are the adx, images and log that correspond to the previous post.


The stall at the end of the driveway was at 6:02. The running at 40 was at 18:04.

What is the meaning of the short egr time when I hit the gas pedal at the end of the driveway?

Look at the length of the egr uptick vs. %tps. The egr in brown where smaller at the end of the drive way compared to %tps (gas peddle, is in red on "graph"). Egr at 40 extends to the time I left my foot off the gas peddle. Doesn't at the end of the driveway.


Note, This is the same log you looked at before. I am wondering at the significance of the short egr time. If you want to wait for a new log, that is fine.

Someday soon, I'm planning on doing some on the car tests on the IAC & EGR.

Thanks in advance,

Robert

[EagleMark]

Was this $A1 ? $88 ? I just don't remember everyones...

[EagleMark]

OK I found we were using A167.adx

What is the mask for your bin?

[historystamp]

A167.adx. My version is in the .zip file. That way you will see what I was looking for in the monitors.

I haven't found a bin file. I remember you looking for a bin file, but you could not find.

I am into scanning only. Just looking for comments on the egr values.

I know it must all be confusing with all the threads you answer. I'll try to keep this in mind.

Robert

[EagleMark]

I'm still looking and EGR seems fine. But when you stall the battery voltage is only 11.? and pins 0 on restart, then glitches it's way back up to 14ish with altenator charging. So I do think you have a weak battry.

Still looking at your log. Did a bunch of work on it so when you get it back it will be nicer to use!

[EagleMark]

Don't think what you noticed above was anything that was not supposed to be there, EGR looks to be working fine.

Battery voltage low.

But your always LEAN! Need to change a fuel filter maybe and check fuel pressure. How many miles on this? If a lot may need fuel injectors serviced or run some good injector cleaner through a tank of gas. Something is making you lean all the time. You've even got a Code set for lean O2! I don't know much about vehicle but could be old O2 sensor too. But it's all lean.

Saw you did some monitor work and dash boards so I added a few more dash boards for you, just right click and choose what you want in that spot.

Also added some list views. One Engine data, One error codes. One switches for bitmask items that change. And the original with everything! Also expanded the MAT lookup table so temps will be more accurate, had 20 spots now 39. Made all the error codes say OK or ERROR and stuff like that.

Had a toe surgery so have plenty of computer time next few days till I can walk again and all my computer work is caught up! HTH!

[historystamp]

Thanks a bunch. You been busy. I've been reading your other posts.

Robert

[EagleMark]

Your welcome, thanks for giving me something to do!

I'm not supposed to walk on this toe surgery for 5 days! Don't like TV that much...have insomnia so I don't sleep much... so I've been a blabbermouth on da net... I actually finished reading the internet yesterday... :laugh:

[historystamp]

1993 Corsica 2.2 liter (VIN 4) LN2 carline with 130000 miles.

I have been working on reducing the hesitations and stalling with my Corsica. The problems haven't seem to have gone away. The problems seems to be moving around.

Replaced the battery. Battery went to almost 0 volts when starting the car. With new battery, car voltage goes to 8.0 volts. Unfortunately, voltage measured at battery without car running is only 11.8 volts. Plan on using external charger to try to get to 12.6 volts.

Replaced O2 sensor. Monitor on O2 sensor looks different. No longer going to zero. Mostly between .1 & .8 volts.

Cleaned IAC & EGR valves the best I could.

About the fuel pressure.....................

The car run fine when I am driving down the interstate. I would think the fuel flow would be a problem when fuel consumption is high.

My driveway goes uphill. When my car is at below 1/8 of a tank, my car will not start. Have to use gravity to let my car roll to street. Starts then. I noticed the problem three years ago.

I'll try to get another run in today with TurnerPro. Will do another round of vacuum checks.

Robert

[historystamp]

1993 Corsica 2.2 liter (VIN 4) LN2 carline with 130000 miles.

Summary:
replaced battery
Used digital voltmeter to check voltage. Read correctly at 12.6. TurnerPro reports lower voltage (11.8v) than what GMDriver saw with his digital voltmeter.
Noticed that voltage is going to zero 2 seconds before car starts. Just after battery replacement was going to 8v. Old battery volts went to zero when start. Like with old battery.

Replaced O2 sensor. We saw changes in O2 graph lines. Seemed to make sense to us.

GMDriver replaced air temperature sensor. Near air filter.

cleaned IAC

Took IAC off car but connected electronically. Ran car in driveway. Saw movement with IAC probe.

cleaned EGR. Seems to move easier by hand than before cleaning.

EGR gasket is missing! Must have been this way for years. Will order a new one.

With car in driveway & EGR type N, GMDriver pressed Metal "frisbee" underneath. Engine speed slowed by sound. Expected. Passed.

GMDriver sprayed carburetor cleaner fluid around throttle body gasket. No change in engine sound.

Did another engine run. Engined stalled twice.

16Jan1stTestDrive.xdl

start car :35

slowing for speed bump 3:20
past speed bump 3:36

car stalls out just after speed bump.

Start car 4:16

stalls -- second speed bump. 5:05

start 5:42


second log if interested. We droive around at 40mph.
/16Jan2ndTestDrive.xdl

Robert

[EagleMark]

So stop hitting speed bumps! :laugh:

You did say you can't start car low on gas. Put half a tank in and see if speed bump is sloshing gas from pickup? Or is speed bump knocking something electrical loose?

Your still running lean in second data log, what's the fuel pressure? Injectors need service? Is this a daily driver? Run some injector cleaner through a tank of gas and do some WOT runs.

Really don't see anything wrong other then lean?

[historystamp]

So stop hitting speed bumps! :laugh:
:mad1:

I wasn't livi' here when the bumps grew out of the pavement. Get five of your neighbors to sign a petition to impede the neighbors you do not like.



You did say you can't start car low on gas. Put half a tank in and see if speed bump is sloshing gas from pickup?
The amount of gas in tank doesn't seem to make a difference.



Or is speed bump knocking something electrical loose?
I've gone over the bumps at the end of the drive in the same direction. Car seems to take the bumps OK then. I drive them slow anyway. It's more on the accelleration after taking the bumps.


Your still running lean in second data log, what's the fuel pressure? Injectors need service? Is this a daily driver? Run some injector cleaner through a tank of gas and do some WOT runs.


Really don't see anything wrong other then lean?
It's my daily driver. I'll try the cleaner. And, see about getting a pressure gauge.


Robert

[EagleMark]

Good injector cleaner! I use... it's in a black bottle, has pictures of before and clean valves after picture around handle... I beleive Chevron. Works good, not the cheapest though. One can and one tank showed differnce in data logs...