16144288 TBI ECM upgrade to 16168625 TBI PCM

[57 Handyman]

I am very new to the tuning community and am grateful for sites like this one...which is so appropriately named. As an old school hot rodder, I know absolutely nothing about EFI tuning. Anyway, the main reason for my being here is I need help and education.

My current project is restoration/modification of my '92 4x4 S10 with a 700R4 trans. The 4.3L V6 has been overbored .020 and fitted with flat top pistons. In addition to the Marine cam, the motor is topped of with '96 Vortec heads and an Edelbrock 2114 carb intake which requires an adapter in order to run the TBI. The ECM is a stock 16144288 with BCC BARL.

When I was doing my research on what modifications to pursue, I found a thread on S10Forum titled "info on computers found in 1st gen's" that suggested swapping out my stock ECM for a PCM. The last paragraph recommended using Service No. 16168625. Well, like the author says..."for those who can't leave well enough alone", I bought and want to upgrade to a PCM. So, what I now need is how to:

(1) reconfigure/repin the harness connectors from ECM 16144288 to accept PCM 16168625.
(2) figure out what and how to reprogram the MEMCAL BCC BBMW or whether this BCC is appropriate for my modified motor.
(3) get up to speed on EFI tuning...any suggestions on where to begin and what to read.

Thank you in advance for any advice and assistance. Again, glad to be among you masters of EFI turning!

[dave w]

:welcome:

I've done several 16168625 upgrades. Here is a link to a write up I did a few years ago: http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?173-1227747-to-16197427-Conversion-PCM-Swap-with-Wiring-Pinout-Directions! (RIP Eaglemark 1960 - 2015 http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?4086-Please-Read-Eagle-Mark)

A link on how to remove pins: http://www.dynamicefi.com/RePinHowTo.php

TunerPro RT software is what most members here gearhead-efi.com use to "tune" with: http://tunerpro.net

Moates.net offers several options on how to "Burn" a chip. I would suggest the Ostrich 2.0 chip emulator (eliminates the need to purchase chip burning equipment) https://www.moates.net/ostrich-20-the-new-breed-p-169.html?cPath=64. A Laptop computer using TunerPro RT software can upload the "chip" into the Ostrich 2.0. I would start with a BCC from a 1993 4.3 TBI engine if I were upgrading to a 16168625 computer.

The factory (GM) did not publish a manual on how to reprogram / tune a PROM chip. The aftermarket fuel injection companies on the other hand want their customers to be able to "tune" their systems. Most all the information from the Holley Commander 950 .pdf applies to the GM fuel injection systems: http://documents.holley.com/techlibrary_r10149-7.pdf

dave w

[57 Handyman]

Dave W.

Before going any further, I was sad to learn of Eagle-Mark's passing. From my searches, his name popped up a lot indicating his extensive knowledge base but, more importantly, his willingness to share and help others. I join all of you who knew him to extend my sympathy to his family!

Next, thank you very much for responding and providing so many leads on how to get up to speed on EFI tuning. Now, I have a lot of reading. After leaving my above introduction and project description, I thought about some additional things I need to ask but don't need to since you've already listed many of them. In addition to removing pins and best chip burners and software, I still am not clear on what is the basic benefit of swapping from the 4288 ECM to the 8625 PCM? I understand, I can have someone (i.e., TBIChips) do a basic reprogram of my BARL chip to include the engine mods but are there bigger benefits tied the 8625's higher baud rate as well as extensive program-ability of features such as fuel tables and turning off/on of dual electric engine fans. I've only ventured into this arena because I didn't want to spend roughly $200 for a TBIChip and later realize I SHOULD have gone this route.

Additionally, my '92 S10 is equipped with ODB1 which I have read is not very versatile and very archaic.

Again, am I getting in too deep over my head for a resto-mod daily driver? For all of you experienced folks, please do not be afraid of being honest with your comments.

And lastly, Dave W, did I see correctly in a thread that you offer services similar to TBIChips?

[jim_in_dorris]

HandyMan, I think one of the basic benefits of switching to the 8625 PCM is tuning. Because the baud rate is so much faster, you get more data points, making tuning easier. The $0D masks are decently documented, and like you said have the added benefits of doing things like computer control of cooling fans. Dave W. is one of the good guys on this board, and is a really knowledgeable tuner. If you want to get into getting your S10 tuned properly, grab a copy of TunerPro RT and start learning it. OBD1 may be archaic, but there is a lot of support for it, and it is much less expensive to tune.

[57 Handyman]

Hey Jim, thanks for your comments. I guess I will press on with my ECM to PCM swap effort. At this point, before I move onto the repinning process, I need to secure a the proper harness connector. I found one on eBay...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/261676184099?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Can someone give me feedback if it is the correct one?

Thanks

[jim_in_dorris]

They sure look correct. I just went to a JY and cut them out of a truck

[dave w]

The items listed on ebay link are the correct parts.

I usually purchase my parts from Mouser:
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Delphi-Connection-Systems/12110113/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMs7eK6h2EBtKhwe%252bwsTRcyj96%2f4ZAe2 1VE%3d

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Delphi-Connection-Systems/12110115/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMs7eK6h2EBtKhwe%252bwsTRcyjlZCOa3cZvq E%3d

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Delphi-Connection-Systems/12045889/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMs7eK6h2EBtKuUHqGbD0E771%252bY4d8n2LJ s%3d (http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Delphi-Connection-Systems/12045889-B/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMs7eK6h2EBtKq4GAi5IbUsIKcasx2ZZHzQ%3d )

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Delphi-Connection-Systems/12045890/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMs7eK6h2EBtKiTKWP%252bbN7yj%252bkGFrG 1l89I%3d


http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Delphi-Connection-Systems/12146448-L/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMs7eK6h2EBtKnSHa2PTj7tEXPzOh97SvHc%3d For 18 AWG Wire

I can be hired (Old School EFi) to tune a chip for the '7427 PCM. Send me a Private Message (PM) for the details.

dave w

I like the newer 93 ~ 95 TBI red / blue connector PCM because it has two timing tables / two spark tables (near idle / off idle), can be configured to stream WBO2 into the data log, operate a 700R4 / 4L60E / 4L80E, and run an electric fan(s).

Myself and other members have developed an advanced Excel spread sheet to "Crunch" tuning a '7427. see attached screen shots

[57 Handyman]

Darn, I just tried to order the item on eBay and noted the seller doesn't ship to Hawaii...:mad1:

Dave W., thanks for the alternative from Mouser. So, do I order one of each of the first 4 items you list to make a complete connector? I'll also order a few pins.

Now with regard to your last comment about advanced spreadsheet, that passes way over my head...

[dave w]

Darn, I just tried to order the item on eBay and noted the seller doesn't ship to Hawaii...:mad1:

Dave W., thanks for the alternative from Mouser. So, do I order one of each of the first 4 items you list to make a complete connector? I'll also order a few pins.

Now with regard to your last comment about advanced spreadsheet, that passes way over my head...

1 each 12110113
1 each 12110115
2 each 12045889-B
2 each 12045890

Pins 12146448

The spreadsheet is for tuning / correcting the chip programming, we can post a thread later when it comes time to tune.

dave w

[57 Handyman]

Hey Dave,

I don't see 12110114 in the parts list; when I click on the second item in your list above, it comes up as 12110115 and not 12110114. Just checking to make sure I get the right parts before I put in my order.

Thanks for the amounts to order.

[dave w]

Hey Dave,

I don't see 12110114 in the parts list; when I click on the second item in your list above, it comes up as 12110115 and not 12110114. Just checking to make sure I get the right parts before I put in my order.

Thanks for the amounts to order.

The correct part is 12110115.

I've corrected my previous post.

[57 Handyman]

Thanks Dave, I just ordered it. It should arrive in a week.

[57 Handyman]

OK, received my connector order from Mouser today. Now, I'm ready to start re-pinning. As I understand, I am removing pins with harness wires from my 4288 ECM connector and inserting them into the locations in the new connectors for my 8625 PCM. Basically, according to the information in the thread "1227747 to 16197427 Conversion PCM Swap with Wiring Pinout Directions!", pin A1 from the old connector goes into F6 in the new. Correct?

Do you have any suggestions on the best tricks to follow? Should I mark and label each wire? What else?

[dave w]

Your are correct with the process of moving the connector pins, A1 is moved from the old connector to F6 of the new connector.

Be patient, sometimes the pins can be stubborn to remove. Having new pins available is a good plan, just in case a stubborn pin is damaged during the removal process and needs to be replaced. The first time I did a conversion I labeled everything. I made masking tape "Flags" to label the wires. I used black ink to label the old connector pin number, then used either blue or red ink on the other side of my masking tape "Flag" to indicate the new connector pin. I used blue ink for the blue connector pins, and red ink for the red connector.

Double check and triple check the connections, before starting the engine.

dave w

[57 Handyman]

Ah....good idea! That is the kind of tips I definitely need to NOT mess things up.

So do you think the current BCC BBMW in my 8625 will suffice for start up purposes? What do I also need to do regarding the notes?

Thanks for your help thus far Dave...it really is nice to have helpful and knowledgeable folks to guide newbies like me along.

[57 Handyman]

Dave,

Today, I followed your suggestion to flag each wire on the 4288 ECM harness with old and new locations in black and red or blue ink, respectively. Interestingly, I found some variances between the listing and my ECM harness. In a few instances, there were no wires in the locations due to the function(s) not being available on my S10, i.e., Charcoal Canister Purge Solenoid (A3), A.I.R. Converter/Port Solenoids (C1 and C2), Power Steering Pressure Switch (C8), MAT (don't know what this device is) Signal (C12), and Injector "2" Control (C15/D14)...OK no problem! In 1 or 2 instances, there were wires of different color and guage.

In general, what do I do with pins and wires which I do NOT need? Do I just move them to the side and tape the pins and bundle them?

With regard to the Swap Notes:
1* I have a 700r4 but no TCC light so what do I do with this wire?
2* Have no clue what I should do.
3* My 4.3L does have a single wire Knock Sensor. Do I re-pin this B7 (red)?
4* No wire and no A.I.R.
5* My S10 is a automatic 4x4 and there is a high/low gear switch. What do I do?
6* No problem...no wire.
7* What is meant by "store in small connector?"
8* No problem...no wire.

When I re-pin the harness and install/connect the PCM 8625, what happens to the ALDL...will it still function? How do I get codes and will the Check Engine Light still work? And lastly, just out of curiosity, what kind of on-board diagnostics (OBD) will I have?

Thanks.



I double checked the flag notations and will make another pass tomorrow. After that, I will prepare an exact listing and post it.

[dave w]

I have some of the information you are requesting.

Several years ago, members from Thridgen.org posted information on upgrading the Camaro TBI to the red / blue PCM. The S-10 and full size pickups have a similar wiring harness like the TBI computers.

The TCC wire goes to Pin E11 ( there is some PCM upgrade notes floating around the internet that are not correct about the TCC wire location, use Pin E11)

Most, maybe all red / blue PCM's will have only one knock sensor wire that goes from the knock sensor directly to the PCM *B15*. I'm thinking your S-10 has an ESC module with a wire coming from the knock sensor that is connected to the ESC module and wire going from the ESC module to the old computer. I solder the two knock sensor wires that are at the ESC module to made one continuous wire going from the knock sensor going directly to the PCM *B15*.

There is a "Whole can of Worms":yikes: when it comes to figuring out what knock sensor or knock sensors to use when you upgrade to the red / blue PCM with the 4.3 engine. If you were upgrading a 5.7 liter V8, then you would be able use Standard Motor Products knock sensor KS6. Maybe you can use the KS6 part number? I don't know. I think some 4.3 liter V6 engines use two knock sensors, one in each head. You will need to do some "Homework" to figure out the actual part number or part numbers needed for the 4.3. I don't know the exact Make, Model, Year (engine / transmission / engine VIN Code) of the vehicle for the knock sensor you need. I'd start looking at S-10 Blazers and Pickups with the 4.3 liter TBI engine from 1993 ~ 1995 that used the red / blue PCM, with the 4L60E transmission. It's very possible you will need to two knock sensors, and will need to use the wiring diagrams to figure out how to wire them to the new red / blue PCM. Homework, Homework, and more Homework! There is the option of deleting the need for a Knock Sensor in a custom PROM chip, not sure that is a good option?

The orange Serial Data wire needs to be relocated from the top row, Pin "E" to the lower row, Pin "M". You will need only 3 wires in the ALDL, "A", "B" and "M" the others wires you have remaining in the ALDL need to be removed.

For the high gear switch wire, or for any wire that is not needed, I terminate the wire by double covering the connector end with heat shrink tubing. I extend the shrink tubing about 1/4" beyond the end of the unused connector. I place the unused wires in a safe place with a zip tie.

dave w

[57 Handyman]

Dave,

Just checking back in with an update:

Somewhere in all the reading I've done, someone mentioned that they made an old-to-new adapter which allowed them to initially keep the old connector while finalizing the tuning activities. Since I also had an extra ECM, I cut out the male-end and will connect the terminals to a red/blue pigtail I found on eBay. I plan on using each of the recommendations you've provided thus far. Do you think the adapter may interfere with and make tuning more difficult?

With regard to the knock sensors, I found some info about using one or two sensors but like the question about which one, there is nothing definitive. More than likely, solving this issue will be one of those trial and error solutions. Since I just returned from an out of state trip, I haven't checked out the ESC module to address what goes to PCM B15. Once I confirm the ESC and wire color, I'll be better prepared.

Lastly, what would be your recommendation regarding when to rewire the ALDL? Do you know if the use of my adapter (described above), negate the functioning of the ALDL altogether?

[Fast355]

Wow my old post on TGO still getting around, lol. It was more a guide for general information. I had a G-van I swapped over. Personally on a single knock sensor V6 which IIRC used a sensor in the block drain, I would simply use a single 93-95 Automatic 350 TBI V8 knock sensor mounted in the block drain after bypassing the ESC module. The resistance values of two 4.3 knock sensors in parallel are almost identical to a single V8 sensor and the V6 sensor inputs on the same terminal. I would use a 4.3 TBI V6 Memcal from a 93-94 Astro van. I swapped a 7427 PCM into an 87 S15 Jimmy with a 3.1/4L60E swapped in place of the 2.8/700r4 and used a single 3.4 knock sensor on a 4.3 Memcal Knock filter without issues.

[57 Handyman]

Wow my old post on TGO still getting around, lol. It was more a guide for general information. I had a G-van I swapped over. Personally on a single knock sensor V6 which IIRC used a sensor in the block drain, I would simply use a single 93-95 Automatic 350 TBI V8 knock sensor mounted in the block drain after bypassing the ESC module. The resistance values of two 4.3 knock sensors in parallel are almost identical to a single V8 sensor and the V6 sensor inputs on the same terminal. I would use a 4.3 TBI V6 Memcal from a 93-94 Astro van. I swapped a 7427 PCM into an 87 S15 Jimmy with a 3.1/4L60E swapped in place of the 2.8/700r4 and used a single 3.4 knock sensor on a 4.3 Memcal Knock filter without issues.

Well, there is another old saying...once on the internet, most everything stated/entered lives forever! :rolleye:

I'm leaning toward using a single knock sensor and in the stock location next to the distributor on my 4.3L. Just for clarification, did you mean a 3.4 KS or should it have been 4.3? Also, are you saying you deleted the knock filter from the programming?

Again, thanks for old and new assistance...knowledge never gets outdated!

[57 Handyman]

Dave:

You are correct, my '92 S10 has an ESC which I found and verified the two wires--Dark Blue from KS and Black ESC to B7--which I need to join to make a direct connection from the single KS to the old B7. What function do the other two wires--Pink/Brown and Brown--connect to or serve?

At this point, since I will be running an old-to-new adapter with the 8625, rather than cut the black and blue wires, I will use a jumper which will allow reverting back to the stock configuration.
Just out of curiosity, what kind of performance impact would result from not having a functioning ESC?

As for which KS to use, FAST355 has recommended a single KS from 93-95 Auto 350 TBI.

FAST355:

You recommend installing a single KS in the block drain. Would using the stock location suffice? Also, would you happen to have a part number?

[dave w]

Dave:

You are correct, my '92 S10 has an ESC which I found and verified the two wires--Dark Blue from KS and Black ESC to B7--which I need to join to make a direct connection from the single KS to the old B7. What function do the other two wires--Pink/Brown and Brown--connect to or serve?
One wire is ground, the other is ignition power (on / start). I don't remember which is which.

dave w

[57 Handyman]

Ok thanks Dave. For the time being, I will just leave the ESC connector and wires intact. Hopefully, there won't be too much of an impact as I continue with other restoration tasks, i.e., moving vehicle around the shop for painting and other activities, etc. Until I am done with the painting, there won't be any WOT which would fall into the KS and ESC domain.

Today, I fashioned a jumper wire to form a direct connection from the KS to B7. The motor fired and ran fine; as it idled, it didn't appear to be negatively impacted. I also identified my Digital Ratio Adapter Controller (DRAC) Module and, if needed, will make adjustments per documentation I found elsewhere on this site. In addition to the DRAC module, there was another "box" attached to my ECM. It is the one piggy-backed above the ECM. Does anyone recognize it and can tell me what it is and it's function.


87538754

You can see in the first picture the flags suggested by Dave W to aid in the repinning later on in the process.

[57 Handyman]

When I got home today, my red/blue pigtail had arrived in the mail. Hurray....but as I sit here examining it, I am wondering what is the actual pin out. Does anyone have details for this? Thanks in advance.

[PJG1173]

there is some good info in here maybe it should be moved out of the introduction area to where others may be looking at it.

[dave w]

there is some good info in here maybe it should be moved out of the introduction area to where others may be looking at it.

I think that is a good idea, I'll try to move the thread later this evening. What should the title of the new thread be?

dave w

[57 Handyman]

I think that is a good idea, I'll try to move the thread later this evening. What should the title of the new thread be?

dave w

Thanks Dave and pjg...how but simple and straight forward..."ECM 4288 to PCM 8625 Swap"?

Also, I posted the same pictures on the S10forum site and was told the gray box (piggy-back on my old ECM) is the Transfer Case Module.

[PJG1173]

It fairly straight forward a few subtle differences as noted earier. Silver box is the tccm. I wired the 8625 into my 87 Toyota with a 89 gm harnes and the factory by using the diagrams in the 7427 thread.

[57 Handyman]

PJG and Dave W.

Yesterday, it dawned upon me that I have an MSD 6AL setup which I will be installing. Will my installing an MSD system have a negative impact initially on being able to start and run my truck? I know, ultimately, the MSD will play a factor into the tuning process and be a factor which is visible in the data logging. I haven't done it yet and wanted to check if I can do it before I mess things up.

[PJG1173]

PJG and Dave W.

Yesterday, it dawned upon me that I have an MSD 6AL setup which I will be installing. Will my installing an MSD system have a negative impact initially on being able to start and run my truck? I know, ultimately, the MSD will play a factor into the tuning process and be a factor which is visible in the data logging. I haven't done it yet and wanted to check if I can do it before I mess things up.

no it shouldn't I have CDI ignition (Crane Hi6R) in both my trucks.

[57 Handyman]

no it shouldn't I have CDI ignition (Crane Hi6R) in both my trucks.

Hey PJG1173, Happy New Year!

I realize this is a very old thread but I wanted to check back with you and provide an update about the use of my MSD6AL setup in my semi-modified VIN Z S-10. Based on this response, I went ahead and installed the MSD. Unfortunately, for several months now, I have been trying to get my motor and ECM to play nice together.

One of the biggest problems has been, once the engine warms up and the temp gets to 200 degs, restarts are near impossible. Two issues are present:

(1) I observe the injectors pouring loads of fuel (heavy spray) into the TBI. The only way to get the engine to fire and run is to unhook one injector connections and hold the throttle wide open. The motor will struggle to start but once it gets going and the injector connected up again, I need to play with the throttle to keep it running.
(2) The motor will not stay running if I let go of the throttle and the throttle plates totally shut.

This situation continued until, on a whim, I decided to disconnect the MSD. Once disconnected, the motor started fine and the flooding/fuel problem disappeared. Basically, all of the normal expected actions...2-second priming, appropriate idle at 650rpms...returned.

So, knowing that I now have no issues with my sensors (O2, IAC, TPS, MAP, and EGR), I took a leap of faith and reinstalled the ECM-to-PCM adapter I made and plugged in a stock 8625 PCM. After some troubleshooting, the resto-mod 4.3L in my 1992 4x4 S-10 is running and ready for the next big step--PCM Tuning.

To you PJG, Dave W, and others who have held my hand, thanks for your assistance and contributions.

P.S. To assist others who are contemplating similar efforts, I will document what I found and did in another thread.